Dodecad k12b south, west and central asian results

[Zoro]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsaces_I_of_Parthia

Parthia was under considerable Parni influence.[11] The Parni were not the only to migrate to Parthia, as the region was constantly receiving new waves of Iranian migrants from the north.[13]

The Parni were an eastern Iranian tribe, who practised Iranian polytheism.[14] By the middle of the 3rd-century BC, however, they had been assimilated into the local Parthian culture; they adopted Parthian, a north-western Iranian language, and became adherents of the Zoroastrianism religion, even giving themselves Zoroastrian names, such as Arsaces' father, Phriapites, whose name was derived from Avestan *Friya pitā ("father-lover").[4][14][15][a] Arsaces himself was probably born and raised in Parthia, speaking the Parthian language.[18] According to the French historian Jérôme Gaslain, Arsaces could have arguably spent much of his life in the Seleucid lands, and may even have belonged to the local elite of Parthia.[

Arsaces was a Scythian or a Bactrian chieftain, who became the leader of the Parni, one of the three tribes of the Dahae confederacy of Central Asia.[8] The Dahae relied their strength completely on horseback, and thus possessed an extremely mobile force, which was able to retreat to the south of the Aral Sea when endangered.[9] Because of this, other empires met complications in their efforts trying to control them

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/part/hd_part.htm

From the northeast of Iran, the Parni advanced toward the frontier of the Seleucid satrapy (administrative district) of Parthia, near the Caspian Sea. In about 250 B.C., they launched an invasion under their leader Arsaces. Known as the Parthians after their successful conquest of the land, they made their own imperial aspirations clear by instituting a dynastic era in 247 B.C., and subsequent rulers assumed the name Arsaces as a royal title.

Most of the extant objects and monuments are from sites at the edges of the Parthian world, in Syria, Mesopotamia, and the Iranian plateau. The art of the Parthian capitals at Hecatompylos (Shahr-e Qumis in northeastern Iran), Ecbatana (Hamadan in west-central Iran) and Ctesiphon (in Iraq) is almost entirely lost. Overall, Parthian art resists a straightforward definition, as it employs styles and motifs from both Hellenistic and earlier Near Eastern traditions that result in innovations in various media

Balochi and Kurdish are under Parthian branch

[IMG][/IMG]

[Kyp]

Some new Azerbaijani samples added:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...65#post6639165

[Demhat]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsaces_I_of_Parthia






https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/part/hd_part.htm





Balochi and Kurdish are under Parthian branch

[IMG][/IMG]

Median is to Northwest Iranic literally what Old Persian is to Southwest Iranic. It is Old Proto Northwest Iranic and all modern Northwest Iranic languages/dialects descended from it. Parthian is literally to Northwest Iranic what Sassanid is to Southwest Iranic. It is the middle Iranic version of the Northwest Iranic branch.

I had really hard time explaining some people those facts. Some people literally believe Parthian is Eastern Iranian to this day.



Old Iranic period

The Median language (also Medean or Medic) was the language of the Medes.[2] It is an Old Iranian language and classified as belonging to the Northwestern Iranian subfamily, which includes many other languages such as Azari, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Zaza–Gorani, Kurmanji, Sorani, Kalhori, and Baluchi.[3]

Old Persian is one of the two directly attested Old Iranian languages (the other being Avestan) and it is the ancestor of Middle Persian (the language of Sasanian Empire).

middle iranic

What is known in Iranian linguistic history as the "Middle Iranian" era is thought to begin around the 4th century BCE lasting through the 9th century. Linguistically the Middle Iranian languages are conventionally classified into two main groups, Western and Eastern.

The Western family includes Parthian (Arsacid Pahlavi) and Middle Persian, while Bactrian, Sogdian, Khwarezmian, Saka, and Old Ossetic (Scytho-Sarmatian) fall under the Eastern category.

[Dr_Maul]

Median is to Northwest Iranic literally what Old Persian is to Southwest Iranic. It is Old Proto Northwest Iranic and all modern Northwest Iranic languages/dialects descended from it. Parthian is literally to Northwest Iranic what Sassanid is to Southwest Iranic. It is the middle Iranic version of the Northwest Iranic branch.

I had really hard time explaining some people those facts. Some people literally believe Parthian is Eastern Iranian to this day.



Old Iranic period



middle iranic

You know, there may be another explanation for this
The native Persian dynasties in the 8th-9th centuries like the Tahirids, Saffarids, Samanids were the ones who effectively created 'New Persian', adding in Islamic elements etc. The problem is, these people usually ruled the Iranian plateau + Khorasan (and up to Khwarezm in the case of the Samanids) but never the Zagros and Atropatene regions (where Kurds lived), as well as the caspian coast (where other 'northern' Iranian languages are spoken). These areas were controlled by dynasties like the Buyids, Ziyarids and Sallarids who were all of Daylamite origin (Mazanderani) and who only spoke MIDDLE PERSIAN, the language of Sassanids which was also extremely similar to the Parthian language (as opposed to the New Persian spoken by the muslim Samanids etc). The Balochis also were never really controlled by any of those dynasties rather local rulers who probably spoke middle persian as well. Therefore I think it is possible that Parthian is an east Iranian language, the reason that it is spoke in the west is because the daylamites did not have New Persian as the official language, but rather Middle Persian (Sassanid but also extremely similar to Parthian)

[Fedora]

zazas in turkey also call themselfs daylams btw.

[Demhat]

You know, there may be another explanation for this
The native Persian dynasties in the 8th-9th centuries like the Tahirids, Saffarids, Samanids were the ones who effectively created 'New Persian', adding in Islamic elements etc. The problem is, these people usually ruled the Iranian plateau + Khorasan (and up to Khwarezm in the case of the Samanids) but never the Zagros and Atropatene regions (where Kurds lived), as well as the caspian coast (where other 'northern' Iranian languages are spoken). These areas were controlled by dynasties like the Buyids, Ziyarids and Sallarids who were all of Daylamite origin (Mazanderani) and who only spoke MIDDLE PERSIAN, the language of Sassanids which was also extremely similar to the Parthian language (as opposed to the New Persian spoken by the muslim Samanids etc). The Balochis also were never really controlled by any of those dynasties rather local rulers who probably spoke middle persian as well. Therefore I think it is possible that Parthian is an east Iranian language, the reason that it is spoke in the west is because the daylamites did not have New Persian as the official language, but rather Middle Persian (Sassanid but also extremely similar to Parthian)

I don't quite understand. New Persian influence Parthian to become West Iranic? What has Persian influence on Dailamite to do with Parthian, which is from a different timescale, becoming West Iranic?

Also these classifications are not based on simple loandwords or influences. Linguists are very capable of filtering through it. There are things like grammatical structure that can not be influenced by other branches.

Let's forget about the messed up timelines. This is out of a scientific point of view simply impossible. Parthian has grammatical traits and loudshifts that are hardcore Northwest Iranic and can not be explained by Persian influence because they are different to Persian loudshifts. Such as the v/w-> b shift in Persian or the z-d and J/C-Z (as example Roc/j vs Roz for day/sun) shift.

[Demhat]

There are clear linguistic loudshifts that can be attributed to East vs West Iranic. And there are loudshifts that divide Northwest and Southwest further. Linguists can easily filter loandwords from this, because loanwords apply to single words. Loudshifts apply to whole roots of many words. And the changes are systematic. It is impossible for a Southwest Iranic language to cause a Iranic language of Eastern branch to become Northwest Iranic through influence. Also because the loudshifts in Southwest Iranic are the most divergent. While Northwest Iranic and East Iranic are quite more archaic.

[Demhat]

zazas in turkey also call themselfs daylams btw.

Some in Diyarbakir call themselves Dimli. They also exist among Iraqi Arabs as Al-Dailami. In Northwest Iran among the Kurmanji speakers exists a tribe called the dumbuli. In Sirnak they too existed in ancient writings as Dumbili Boxti as in meaning the Dumbili from Botan. It's a tribe. Like the Alans that exist throughout Kurdistan.

[Dr_Maul]

I don't really understand what you mean. New Persian influence Parthian to become West Iranic? What has Persian influence on Dailamite to do with Parthian, which is from a different timescale, becoming West Iranic?

Also these classifications are not based on simple loandwords or influences. Linguists are very capable of filtering through it. There are things like grammatical structure that can not be influenced by other branches.

Let's forget about the completely messed up timelines. This is out of a scientific point of view simply impossible. Parthian has grammatical traits and loudshifts that are hardcore Northwest Iranic and can not be explained by Persian influence because they are different to Persian loudshifts. Such as the v/w-> b shift in Persian or the z-d and J/C-Z (as example Roc/j vs Roz for day/sun) shift.

I mean that New Persian, the pre-cursor to Farsi, was NOT the lingua franca of Kurdish lands. The language spoken then was still Middle Persian, which was effectively the same as Parthian. Basically I am saying that while the Persian spoke in most of Iran was Islamicized into New Persian by the Samanids, the language spoke in the area where Kurds, Balochis lived was still the same as Middle Persian, which would explain why they are closer

[Demhat]

I mean that New Persian, the pre-cursor to Farsi, was NOT the lingua franca of Kurdish lands. The language spoken then was still Middle Persian, which was effectively the same as Parthian. Basically I am saying that while the Persian spoke in most of Iran was Islamicized into New Persian by the Samanids, the language spoke in the area where Kurds, Balochis lived was still the same as Middle Persian, which would explain why they are closer

Ah now I understand what you mean

There is quite a misunderstanding here. The linguistic subgroups don't work like that. middle Iranic refers to the time frame.

Middle Persian wasn't closer to Parthian on these specific traits that define North and South. The Northwest/Southwest split is based on grammatic and loudshifts. Every Iranic language of today is l a new Iranic language, even Kurdish. Just that it belongs to the Northwestern branch. Kurdish shares loudshifts with Parthian that differs from Sassanid. The conncetion between Parthian (Median) and Kurdish is based on archaic, historical loudshift that differs from middle and new Persian.

I don't know how to explain this more properly to you. Even if they had new Persian influence on Kurdish areas the Northwest Iranic languages would still be closer to Parthian