So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[Peterski]

I warned you on the 1st page of this thread that they are probably not Iron Age.

Aesch25 from 2864-2501 is also the oldest R1b-L51, unsure of his autosomal profile.

Autosomally Corded Ware:

Aesch25_scaled,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239

Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002

Some other samples:

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63
0.04214376 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04385189 French_Paris
0.04495073 Belgian

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20
0.02962418 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03088535 French_Occitanie
0.03111555 French_Auvergne

Distance to: Constance:MX288
0.02803595 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03083126 French_Brittany
0.03226829 Welsh

Distance to: Constance:MX286
0.03509933 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03631098 French_Occitanie
0.03674378 French_Paris

Distance to: Constance:MX283
0.03230589 Spanish_Soria
0.03981424 French_Auvergne
0.03988847 French_Occitanie

Distance to: Constance:MX279
0.03559744 French_Brittany
0.03697281 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03817387 Welsh

Distance to: Constance:MX275
0.04154491 French_Occitanie
0.04172188 French_Paris
0.04186804 Belgian

Distance to: Constance:MX257
0.03452833 French_Nord
0.03485311 Afrikaner
0.03489344 Belgian

Distance to: Constance:MX254_2
0.03464891 French_Occitanie
0.03505670 French_Auvergne
0.03540269 Spanish_Soria

Distance to: Constance:MX252
0.02867450 French_Brittany
0.02899975 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02930563 French_Nord

Scaled:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alsace:SX32,0.135449,0.122879,0.053174,0.0646,0.024312,0.025937,0.00799,0.010615,-0.005931,-0.006743,-0.004872,-0.002248,-0.007284,-0.018029,0.020494,0.023468,0.019297,-0.009248,0.003394,0.016508,0.006489,0.002102,-0.005053,-0.004458,0.00467
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.121791,0.126941,0.046763,0.032623,0.05201,0.009761,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.013294,0.016766,0.005196,0.007793,-0.018731,-0.022432,0.018322,0.028109,0.008605,-0.002407,-0.004148,0.002876,-0.003868,0.005317,-0.005176,-0.003374,-0.001916
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.121791,0.122879,0.053174,0.050388,0.031083,0.018686,-0.000235,0.003,0.002863,-0.001093,-0.00341,0.004796,-0.008325,-0.021744,0.020901,0.019888,0.008345,-0.004434,0.00176,0.012756,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.012448,0.006386,-0.002155
Constance:MX252,0.124067,0.137096,0.05242,0.039729,0.03693,0.009203,-0.00893,0.000692,0.016157,0.013485,0.001299,0.001948,-0.010406,-0.013487,0.017236,0.011005,-0.007302,0.003801,0.004399,0.003752,0.010482,-0.003215,-0.011955,0.001084,-0.005269
Constance:MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.055437,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.017794,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Constance:MX257,0.120652,0.129988,0.046009,0.041344,0.040623,0.003068,-0.00329,0.001615,0.010022,0.014397,-0.006658,0.001499,-0.007582,-0.018304,0.020494,-0.001724,-0.000522,-0.001774,0.015964,-0.002501,-0.001747,-0.001237,-0.00037,-0.007591,0.000359
Constance:MX265,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023
Constance:MX275,0.126344,0.128972,0.045632,0.040052,0.03139,0.005578,-0.00047,0.002308,0.018407,0.021504,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.026313,-0.014726,0.021444,0.008618,-0.000261,0.006841,0.006411,-0.003627,0.001123,0.012984,0.001356,-0.015183,0.002754
Constance:MX279,0.135449,0.138112,0.053928,0.052649,0.039392,0.013945,-0.002115,-0.004846,0.005931,0.015308,-0.010555,0.008243,-0.006541,-0.014175,0.013165,0.015778,0.011995,0.002154,-0.003017,-0.001,0.002246,0.003462,-0.012571,0.006145,-0.0097
Constance:MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322,0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Constance:MX286,0.12862,0.13405,0.049026,0.030685,0.041854,0.005857,-0.00235,0.001846,0.012885,0.020046,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.017839,-0.015551,0.012351,0.01432,0.011083,0.005574,-0.00352,0.001376,0.007362,0.018053,0.007641,-0.011809,-0.000239
Constance:MX288,0.132035,0.132019,0.061094,0.040698,0.048932,0.006972,0.008695,0.00923,0.010635,0.015672,-0.006333,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.007844,0.017508,0.01127,0.005737,-0.0019,0.000503,0.006003,0.015597,0.005193,-0.00037,-0.003856,0.000838
St_Gallen:SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0.012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.013908,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479

Unscaled:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alsace:SX32,0.0119,0.0121,0.0141,0.02,0.0079,0.0093,0.0034,0.0046,-0.0029,-0.0037,-0.003,-0.0015,-0.0049,-0.0131,0.0151,0.0177,0.0148,-0.0073,0.0027,0.0132,0.0052,0.0017,-0.0041,-0.0037,0.0039
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.0107,0.0125,0.0124,0.0101,0.0169,0.0035,-0.0023,-0.001,0.0065,0.0092,0.0032,0.0052,-0.0126,-0.0163,0.0135,0.0212,0.0066,-0.0019,-0.0033,0.0023,-0.0031,0.0043,-0.0042,-0.0028,-0.0016
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.0107,0.0121,0.0141,0.0156,0.0101,0.0067,-0.0001,0.0013,0.0014,-0.0006,-0.0021,0.0032,-0.0056,-0.0158,0.0154,0.015,0.0064,-0.0035,0.0014,0.0102,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0101,0.0053,-0.0018
Constance:MX252,0.0109,0.0135,0.0139,0.0123,0.012,0.0033,-0.0038,0.0003,0.0079,0.0074,0.0008,0.0013,-0.007,-0.0098,0.0127,0.0083,-0.0056,0.003,0.0035,0.003,0.0084,-0.0026,-0.0097,0.0009,-0.0044
Constance:MX254_2,0.0115,0.0134,0.0147,0.0077,0.0136,0.0009,0.002,0.0027,0.0087,0.0136,-0.0027,0.005,-0.0111,-0.0104,0.0023,0.0137,0.0111,0.0028,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0034,0.009,0.0012,-0.0087,0.0011
Constance:MX257,0.0106,0.0128,0.0122,0.0128,0.0132,0.0011,-0.0014,0.0007,0.0049,0.0079,-0.0041,0.001,-0.0051,-0.0133,0.0151,-0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0014,0.0127,-0.002,-0.0014,-0.001,-0.0003,-0.0063,0.0003
Constance:MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Constance:MX275,0.0111,0.0127,0.0121,0.0124,0.0102,0.002,-0.0002,0.001,0.009,0.0118,-0.0022,0.0053,-0.0177,-0.0107,0.0158,0.0065,-0.0002,0.0054,0.0051,-0.0029,0.0009,0.0105,0.0011,-0.0126,0.0023
Constance:MX279,0.0119,0.0136,0.0143,0.0163,0.0128,0.005,-0.0009,-0.0021,0.0029,0.0084,-0.0065,0.0055,-0.0044,-0.0103,0.0097,0.0119,0.0092,0.0017,-0.0024,-0.0008,0.0018,0.0028,-0.0102,0.0051,-0.0081
Constance:MX283,0.0111,0.0135,0.0152,0.0073,0.0165,-0.0011,0.0005,0.0013,0.0098,0.0193,-0.0034,0.0064,-0.01,-0.0066,-0.0006,0.0169,0.0128,0.0001,0.0032,-0.0019,-0.0012,0.0052,-0.0037,-0.0085,0.0012
Constance:MX286,0.0113,0.0132,0.013,0.0095,0.0136,0.0021,-0.001,0.0008,0.0063,0.011,-0.0035,0.0027,-0.012,-0.0113,0.0091,0.0108,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0028,0.0011,0.0059,0.0146,0.0062,-0.0098,-0.0002
Constance:MX288,0.0116,0.013,0.0162,0.0126,0.0159,0.0025,0.0037,0.004,0.0052,0.0086,-0.0039,0.0026,-0.0088,-0.0057,0.0129,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0048,0.0125,0.0042,-0.0003,-0.0032,0.0007
St_Gallen:SX20,0.0114,0.0145,0.0148,0.0038,0.0179,0.0033,0.0005,0.0008,0.0068,0.0152,-0.0024,0.0084,-0.0132,-0.0056,0.0039,-0.0067,-0.0133,-0.003,0.0008,-0.0068,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0022,-0.0052,-0.004

Some more (scaled & unscaled):

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
Aesch23,0.0108,0.0178,0.0126,-0.012,0.0255,-0.0095,-0.0021,-0.0005,0.0306,0.0502,0.0002,0.0107,-0.022,-0.0096,-0.0096,-0.0049,-0.0018,0.0019,-0.0035,-0.0029,0.0064,0.0031,-0.0093,-0.0301,-0.0023
MX212,0.0111,0.0167,0.0157,-0.0093,0.0302,-0.0097,-0.0007,0.0001,0.0361,0.0426,-0.0012,0.0074,-0.0196,-0.014,-0.0113,0.0131,0.0186,0.0033,0.0008,-0.007,0.013,0.0034,-0.0099,-0.0319,-0.0045
MX188,0.0103,0.0128,0.0159,0.0178,0.0069,0.0071,-0.0007,0,-0.0032,-0.0046,0.0003,0.0005,-0.0014,-0.0154,0.0097,0.0167,0.0038,0.002,-0.0019,0.0084,0.0059,0.0029,-0.0027,0.001,-0.0063
MX190,0.0111,0.0133,0.0158,0.0192,0.0082,0.0109,0.0031,0.0038,-0.0043,-0.0015,-0.0058,0,-0.0096,-0.0111,0.0102,0.0061,0.0027,-0.0029,-0.0016,0.0061,0.0031,0.008,0.0073,-0.0081,-0.0017
MX192,0.0109,0.0119,0.0176,0.0193,0.0082,0.0083,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0034,-0.0007,0.0016,-0.0024,-0.0053,-0.0059,0.0145,0.0159,0.0092,0.0025,0,0.0019,0.0067,0.0013,-0.0032,0.0017,0.0022
MX195,0.0108,0.0119,0.0172,0.0204,0.0071,0.0094,-0.0004,0.0011,-0.0015,-0.0045,0,0.0015,-0.0071,-0.0065,0.0152,0.0183,0.0069,-0.0041,-0.0046,0.0067,-0.0021,0.003,0.0008,0.0025,0.0011
Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Aesch23_scaled,0.122929,0.180764,0.047517,-0.03876,0.078476,-0.026495,-0.004935,-0.001154,0.062584,0.091483,0.000325,0.016036,-0.032705,-0.013212,-0.013029,-0.006497,-0.002347,0.002407,-0.004399,-0.003627,0.007986,0.003833,-0.011462,-0.03627,-0.002754
MX212_scaled,0.126344,0.169593,0.059208,-0.030039,0.09294,-0.027052,-0.001645,0.000231,0.073833,0.077633,-0.001949,0.01109,-0.029137,-0.019267,-0.015336,0.017369,0.024251,0.004181,0.001006,-0.008754,0.016221,0.004204,-0.012202,-0.038439,-0.005389
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0.021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0.025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0.025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.002376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0.02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317
Aesch25_scaled,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
MX265_scaled,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023

[Peterski]

^^^

[XenophobicPrussian]

I warned you on the 1st page of this thread that they are probably not Iron Age.

Do you have SX18?

[XenophobicPrussian]

^^^

See, thing is, Celts aren't going to be like those northern French ones either. They're too northern, would still need way too much Roman to get modern Swiss from N. French+Scandinavian+Roman. Even if we say La Tene/Hallstatt period Celts still formed a cline from N. Iberians to N. French by 500 BC+, that still means the average is around SW/South/Central French, which is what I've been saying after I made that thread about the Lech samples(originally was saying Basque-like of course, which is still close enough regardless).

The dates say it all, SX20(closest to Spanish_Barcelona): 1693-1609 BC is the youngest sample on there(excluding MX265, the eastern one), most the closest to Calais_French ones are older than 2000 BC(not that they didn't exist later, 1 out of 6 middle 1000s BC Lech_MBA clustered around N. French/Belgium rather than Iberians/SW French like the rest and one 1800 BC one from this paper is Britanny like). If we take SharpFork's word for it on SX18, the only other Iron Age sample in this paper(200 BC+) and go by the steppe/farmer/WHG ratio it has, fits right with what northern Iberians have, around 30% steppe, 15% WHG(although I haven't been able to find anything about this sample in supp data), and the other one closest to Croats.

I was right all along.

[Peterski]

R1a sample:

https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf - Supplementary Table 3

maxageBP minageBP ageBP
763 431 597

This age is in BP (before present) or in BC ???

[Vid Flumina]

Edit:Actually there is another iron age sample from 200-0 BCE. It's SX18. It's about 30% Steppe and 15% WHG.

Rhaetian? It is dated 178BC-2AD from Wartau, on the border with Liechtenstein.

Spoiler!

Admixture proportions seem identical to Late Iron Age Prenestini sample R435

[Peterski]

It seems most dates are in BP (before present), not in BC. See Supplementary Table 3.

=========

Wait for SX18.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Rhaetian? It is dated 178BC-2AD from Wartau, on the border with Liechtenstein.

Spoiler!

Admixture proportions seem identical to Late Iron Age Prenestini sample R435

There's already samples with identical autosomal to those profiles 2000 BC+, Rhaetians only entered Switzerland 500 BC supposedly. It could be a Rhaetian, but Celts/Rhaetians and other Italic tribes likely would've been the exact same people autosomally, by the time of the Hallstatt/La Tene anyway, while proto-Celt/Urnfield were likely more northern.

[Peterski]

I don't get it, one table has dates in BP and another one in BC. Is MX265 (R1a sample) Iron Age or Medieval?

[XenophobicPrussian]

dp