So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[Grace O'Malley]

How exactly was it dismantled? Celts could emerge from Bell Beakers at the Atlantic coast.

You are forgetting that Celts emerged during the Late Bronze Age, not during Copper Age.

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This image clearly says "Atlantic Late Bronze Age networks" as the Proto-Celtic homeland:



^^^
In Late Bronze Age times, everyone had a lot of Steppe ancestry all over that yellow area.

Where though? Possibly France? Linguistically though it is a non-starter as Celtic languages developed in close proximity to Italic and then split and there after Celtic developed separately from Italic in close proximity to Proto-Germanic as there are some loan words from Celtic in Proto-Germanic. This is like R1b from the West and we all know how inaccurate that theory was? It's like some people have their pet theories and don't want to let them go.

As an Irish person I don't even care if I'm not a bone fide Celt. I'm just happy to go with what the evidence shows. It really doesn't change my views on who or what I am. I'm still a Gael so whether I descend from Continental Celts doesn't make much difference to my history or place in the world.

[Peterski]

This is like R1b from the West and we all know how inaccurate that theory was?

Well according to SNP Tracker, my subclade of R1b probably came to Poland from France during the Iron Age:

http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

The oldest R1b-L151 has now been discovered in Swiss Corded Ware, so pretty close to France if you ask me.

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Other early R1b-L151 seem to be from Lingolsheim in France and Auvernier in French Switzerland (Romandy):

[J. Ketch]

Very interesting, i am at full attention. How Gaulish, Iberian, British and easpecially Irish were impacted in Iron Age by Central European. Are you going by genetics here, or maybe archaeological, historical?


Maybe,... not sure, there must be more DNA samples from late Halstatt and especially La Tene graves

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...Transect_0.pdf

^^The difference between Bronze Age Iberians and Iron Age Celtiberians is all there. Similarly Iron Age Brits and modern Insular Celts all have more Neolithic Farmer admixture than Bronze Age Brits, which suggests admixture from the Continent (which goes along with the traditional historical record of Celts coming from Central Europe to Britain in the Iron Age, and the appearance of La Tene cultural artefacts in Britain from that time).

[Grace O'Malley]

Well according to SNP Tracker, my subclade of R1b probably came to Poland from France during the Iron Age:

http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

The oldest R1b-L51 has now been discovered in Swiss Corded Ware, so pretty close to France if you ask me.

I'm sure that's where a lot of L21 came from specifically Northern France so that's why I'm waiting on some more studies from France but it is also obvious that Dutch Bell Beakers obviously carried L21 so I think ultimately it will be Corded Ware - Single Grave - Dutch Bell Beakers. Nothing earth shattering and it explains the British Isles and Dutch connection which is why Irish also have this connection despite not being Saxons.

[Peterski]

It is Swiss Corded Ware > French Bell Beakers probably.

Dutch Bell Beakers were probably descended from French Bell Beakers (and ultimately from Swiss Corded Ware).

Similarly Iron Age Brits and modern Insular Celts all have more Neolithic Farmer admixture than Bronze Age Brits, which suggests admixture from the Continent

Yes it suggests admixture from the Continent, but it could be admixture from France and from Northern Iberia.

[Fantomas]

Where though? Possibly France? Linguistically though it is a non-starter as Celtic languages developed in close proximity to Italic and then split and there after Celtic developed separately from Italic in close proximity to Proto-Germanic as there are some loan words from Celtic in Proto-Germanic. This is like R1b from the West and we all know how inaccurate that theory was? It's like some people have their pet theories and don't want to let them go.

Celtic language (Gaulish) had first contact wirh proto-Germanic at very late time, already in Iron Age

[Fantomas]

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...Transect_0.pdf

^^The difference between Bronze Age Iberians and Iron Age Celtiberians is all there.

This trend documents
gene flow into Iberia during the Late Bronze
Age or Early Iron Age, possibly associated with
the introduction of the Urnfield tradition (18).
Unlike in Central or Northern Europe, where
Steppe ancestry likely marked the introduction
of Indo-European languages (12), our results
indicate that, in Iberia, increases in Steppe ancestry were not always accompanied by switches
to Indo-European languages. This is consistent
with the genetic profile of present-day Basques
who speak the only non-Indo-European language
in Western Europe but overlap genetically with
Iron Age populations (Fig. 1D) showing substantial levels of Steppe ancestry

Similarly Iron Age Brits and modern Insular Celts all have more Neolithic Farmer admixture than Bronze Age Brits, which suggests admixture from the Continent (which goes along with the traditional historical record of Celts coming from Central Europe to Britain in the Iron Age, and the appearance of La Tene cultural artefacts in Britain from that time).

In that Reich's paper that you posted Urnfield central European culture associated with Nordic DNA, but at the same time increasing Neolithic Farmer genes in Iron Age Britts you interpreted as invasion from central Europeans which was Nordic, maybe textbook Nordic population?!

[SharpFork]

There are many problems with the Celtic from the West theory as proposed by Cunliffe and the guy that worked on the Tartessian language:

1. Languages (almost?) never expand from merely trade and lingua francas rarely end up becoming permanently spoken languages, if trade on the other hand is postulated to have kept the Bell Beaker languages close then the question is why didn't this happen with Romance or Germanic languages which had arguably far more contact from the moment they separated.

2. The linguistic diversity in Iberia itself makes the idea that somehow Celtic started from there and took over so much of Central Europe questionable, maybe we miss real existing non-Celtic populations in the sources but even the linguistic diversity in Iberia is too peculiar and not found in Gaul or Germany. Also the existence of the diverging "para-Celtic" or "Italo-Celtic"-like Lusitanian also rises many questions.

3. On the topic of the lingustic situation in Iberia, the Celtic status of Tartessian is questionable and the weak evidence we have makes it non-Celticity a more reasonable proposal, given how many non-Celtic languages there were anyway.

4. I honestly don't see how one could discard Hallstatt on archeological grounds while supporting this theory, where are the advtanges of this new theory? There is nothing as close as the cohesiveness and interconnectedness of Hallstatt and La Tene that explains the kind of continental wide ethnic and linguistic relatedness we

[SharpFork]

Celtic language (Gaulish) had first contact wirh proto-Germanic at very late time, already in Iron Age

Does Cunliffe actually believe Italo-Celtic separated from the rest as far early as Hittite in 6500 BCE? What? This is just ridiculous, outside Anatolian and maybe Tocharian I'm not sure how anyone can postulated IE breaking before 3000 BCE

Edit: Ah, it's Renfrew's Anatolian theory, complete garbage

[XenophobicPrussian]

This seems fairly reasonable, all of them looke western European aboriginal and not migrants from east as traditional speculations used to claim

Actually, recently the influences from the east have been getting vindicated.

MX 265 from iron age Switzerland was a pure Scythian migrant(pretty much identical to Hungarian, Ukrainian Scythians/Sarmatians), DA 112 from the Hallstatt site in Bohemia had minor but definite Scythian admixture. The Celts taught the Romans how to wear pants, but the Celts likely learned it from the Scythians.

Similar pattern everywhere in Europe, not just the Celts. You probably don't get the Germanic expansions without influence from Urnfield in Nordic BA, you don't get to Minoans from Greek neolithic without significantly more Anatolian stuff, you don't get from Minoan to Mycenaean without even more Anatolian stuff(and some steppe), you don't get Etruscan from Italy Bell Beaker/BA without Anatolian or Mycenaean, etc. That's why I find it funny when nationalists jerk off to ancient civilizations, because you're basically jerking off to Arabs or some guy who now herds sheep in the Caucasus mountains.