French Regional Averages by Tomenable

[JamesBond007]

I guess, this is the is the usual norm with Vahaduo G25 and Gedmatch.

I asked that because in some Gedmatch calculators in Vahaduo, distances are sometimes huge(even in natives) and I didn´t know exactly what were acceptable distances in this one, because we didn´t see any native member posting his results.

I understand what you are saying but this one does not have that problem at least.

[gixajo]

I understand what you are saying but this one does not have that problem at least.

When I did that question was because I did the wrong calculator and I got more than 5k% distance

[Aren]

Petalpusher has immigrant roots from Northern France IIRC. I'm trying to find his K15/K13 results, have you seen?

I've spoken with Petalpusher. His father is from Drôme and his mother from Provence, near Monaco. He has deep roots in SE France.

This is is mother's K13

Spoiler!

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.51
2 West_Med 22.08
3 Baltic 20.48
4 West_Asian 7.01
5 East_Med 5.86
6 Siberian 1.06


1 French 6.3
2 South_Dutch 6.43
3 West_German 7.42
4 Southeast_English 10.24
5 Southwest_English 10.46
6 Spanish_Cataluna 11.14
7 Southwest_French 11.42
8 Orcadian 11.99
9 Spanish_Cantabria 12.25
10 Austrian 12.35
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.53
12 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.64
13 Irish 12.75
14 North_German 12.88
15 Portuguese 13.08
16 West_Scottish 13.1
17 North_Dutch 13.11
18 Danish 13.46
19 East_German 13.65
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.81

And this is his K13

Spoiler!

1 North_Atlantic 40.79
2 West_Med 23.73
3 Baltic 20.31
4 East_Med 8.17
5 West_Asian 5.49
6 Red_Sea 0.96
7 East_Asian 0.38
8 Siberian 0.18


1 French @ 6.233057
2 South_Dutch @ 9.196218
3 West_German @ 9.694644
4 Spanish_Cataluna @ 10.166491
5 Southwest_French @ 10.635451
6 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.049023
7 Spanish_Cantabria @ 11.470937
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 11.649289
9 Portuguese @ 11.798075
10 Spanish_Valencia @ 13.038110
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.210588
12 Spanish_Extremadura @ 13.406804
13 Spanish_Murcia @ 13.636230
14 Austrian @ 13.859152
15 Southeast_English @ 14.551850
16 Spanish_Andalucia @ 14.838248
17 Spanish_Aragon @ 15.041942
18 Southwest_English @ 15.308091
19 East_German @ 15.576905
20 Orcadian @ 16.896818

Now I don't think the average ethnic French from Provence scores like her, but she's not an outlier just northern shifted.
I get your thinking though. Since there are such high variation. You think those scoring like Piedmont are natives and what Provence should look like, I think Provence is more similar to Central France and forms continuum with it. Those who score like Piedmont or other regions of Northern Italy probably are from urban areas with a lot of hidden Italian ancestry, maybe not recent but from the past few hundred years.

[Peterski]

Aren, the original inhabitants of Provence were the Ligures, as far as I know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures

^^^ This makes me think, that NW Italian-like genetics is more native to this area?

But it doesn't really matter because I divide samples also based on how they cluster.

If they cluster with the rest of Central French, they go to Central region, and within that I have sub-regions (like Provence_North).

And as I said, individuals with Central French genetics can be found in ALL regions, but in some regions they aren't the majority.

In Provence, individuals with Italian-like genetics outnumber those with Central French.

[Peterski]

You think those scoring like Piedmont are natives and what Provence should look like, I think Provence is more similar to Central France and forms continuum with it. Those who score like Piedmont or other regions of Northern Italy probably are from urban areas with a lot of hidden Italian ancestry, maybe not recent but from the past few hundred years.

There are many "Central" and some very Southern-shifted samples even among samples from Nord Department (near the Belgian border). And in that case I excluded them from "Belgica" average.

One sample from Nord Department is close to Aosta!

But in Provence >60% of samples are "Southern". Hard to believe that the majority are immigrants, and the minority (some of whom are very northern-shifted, even close to Belgica or Alsace) are natives.

Also, if everyone in Provence was genetically intermediate between South and Centre, then none of them would be "outliers".

But here, rather than having one intermediate population, you have perhaps two different populations - one "Southern" and one "Central".

=====

But I posted K15 and K13 results for all 30 samples (18 Provence + 12 Provence_North). You can copy-paste this into Excel to calculate one big average for all 30 samples, and see if it works well.

[Aren]

There are many "Central" and some very Southern-shifted samples even among samples from Nord Department (near the Belgian border). And in that case I excluded them from "Belgica" average.

One sample from Nord Department is close to Aosta!

But in Provence >60% of samples are "Southern". Hard to believe that the majority are immigrants, and the minority (some of whom are very northern-shifted, even close to Belgica or Alsace) are natives.

Also, if everyone in Provence was genetically intermediate between South and Centre, then none of them would be "outliers".

But here, rather than having intermediate population, you simply have two different populations - one "Southern" and one "Central".

Like I said I understand your logic, you do what you think is more plausible. I never said they were immigrants btw.

This high diversity is seen also in Davids Provence sample in his PCA 25 spreadsheet.



Some are almost 100% French-Paris others like North Italians, some are even mixes others have a stronger shift. Since there is such diversity it points to that it must be recent, otherwise the overwhelming majority would be scoring similar and with few outliers.

[Grace O'Malley]

K13

Distance to: Grace
8.15385798 FRA_Armorica
14.16801327 FRA_Belgica
15.75946382 FRA_Alsace
18.13683545 FRA_Central
24.56473489 FRA_Septimania
28.48746566 FRA_Provence
29.72610133 FRA_Aquitania

Target: Grace
Distance: 815.3858% / 8.15385798
100.0 FRA_Armorica

K15 is the same.

K15

Distance to: Grace
7.98239939 FRA_Armorica
12.92812438 FRA_Belgica
14.43360662 FRA_Alsace
17.10164904 FRA_Central
23.45273971 FRA_Septimania
26.43121639 FRA_Provence
29.57107878 FRA_Aquitania

[Peterski]

Like I said I understand your logic, you do what you think is more plausible. I never said they were immigrants btw.

This high diversity is seen also in Davids Provence sample in his PCA 25 spreadsheet.

https://i.imgur.com/MdJcakq.png

Some are almost 100% French-Paris others like North Italians, some are even mixes others have a stronger shift. Since there is such diversity it points to that it must be recent, otherwise the overwhelming majority would be scoring similar and with few outliers.

I'm using all of those samples too, among others. Here is how they are counted in my averages:

K15 and K13 for S_23_2 (the one which is kind of "borderline" based on your G25 comparison):

S_23_2[K15],25.84,20.18,8.47,6.12,18.79,9.04,6.04,1.88,0,0.87,0,0.22,1.30,0,1.24

Distance to: S_23_2[K15]
9.45607741 FRA_Alsace
9.53311072 FRA_Central
10.32921101 FRA_Belgica
10.95305437 FRA_Provence
12.78696993 FRA_Septimania
15.95135417 FRA_Armorica
22.97471001 FRA_Aquitania

S_23_2[K13],35.28,17.97,21.73,8.66,10.05,1.96,0,1.05,0,0.45,1.37,0,1.49

Distance to: S_23_2[K13]
8.42054630 FRA_Central
8.98630625 FRA_Provence
9.16604058 FRA_Alsace
10.24050780 FRA_Belgica
10.82294784 FRA_Septimania
16.73916366 FRA_Armorica
21.87317307 FRA_Aquitania

[Samnium]

Like I said I understand your logic, you do what you think is more plausible. I never said they were immigrants btw.

This high diversity is seen also in Davids Provence sample in his PCA 25 spreadsheet.



Some are almost 100% French-Paris others like North Italians, some are even mixes others have a stronger shift. Since there is such diversity it points to that it must be recent, otherwise the overwhelming majority would be scoring similar and with few outliers.

Yeah, actually there have been lot of italian immigration to Provence, not only in the XXth century but even centuries before so that makes totally sense.

I would say that these very Italian results come from the coastal areas. Just a guess, because they have been a lot more urban.

[Samnium]

There are many "Central" and some very Southern-shifted samples even among samples from Nord Department (near the Belgian border). And in that case I excluded them from "Belgica" average.

One sample from Nord Department is close to Aosta!

But in Provence >60% of samples are "Southern". Hard to believe that the majority are immigrants, and the minority (some of whom are very northern-shifted, even close to Belgica or Alsace) are natives.

Also, if everyone in Provence was genetically intermediate between South and Centre, then none of them would be "outliers".

But here, rather than having one intermediate population, you have perhaps two different populations - one "Southern" and one "Central".

=====

But I posted K15 and K13 results for all 30 samples (18 Provence + 12 Provence_North). You can copy-paste this into Excel to calculate one big average for all 30 samples, and see if it works well.

Aosta like still doesn't mean Piedmontese like, I've seen lot of Aostans samples, they are "Provencal" like, not Northern Italian.

Those Provencal "Northern Italian like" are much more southern shifted than any Aostan would be actually (and I've seen also Aostans clustering like Central French ! very near your average for Central France)