Southeast England was 80% replaced by Anglo-Saxons in the Early Middle Ages

[David Johnson]

Are the Irish and Scots more "Saxon" than the English?

Global25:

Distance to:	England_Saxon
0.01835674	Irish
0.01852710	Scottish
0.02010173	Orcadian
0.02017702	Shetlandic
0.02112210	English
0.02137730	Welsh
0.02393586	English_Cornwall

A simple model, to be taken with a grain of salt. According to this, the Anglo-Saxon contribution is approximately 15%.

Target: Shetlandic
Distance: 1.7569% / 0.01756912
52.4	England_Saxon
47.6	England_Roman

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1342% / 0.01134196
69.2	England_Roman
30.8	England_Saxon

Target: Scottish
Distance: 0.9918% / 0.00991845
75.2	England_Roman
24.8	England_Saxon

Target: English
Distance: 1.1736% / 0.01173631
84.2	England_Roman
15.8	England_Saxon

Target: Orcadian
Distance: 0.9817% / 0.00981675
84.2	England_Roman
15.8	England_Saxon

Target: Welsh
Distance: 1.2022% / 0.01202204
84.8	England_Roman
15.2	England_Saxon

Target: English_Cornwall
Distance: 1.4197% / 0.01419734
92.4	England_Roman
7.6	England_Saxon

And why does it make sense to model the Irish with Anglo-Saxon samples? Anglo-Saxons aren't a source population of the modern Irish. You should use populations that make historical and genealogical sense when modelling, not just chase the lowest distance possible. Irish are more steppe shifted than the English and the Anglo-Saxon samples are very steppe shifted, hence why they are artificially closer.

[David Johnson]

I look forward to this study. I find the studies title a bit sensationalist, we don't need a study to tell us the early anglo-saxons were overwhelmingly anglo-saxon. I am more interested in how modern English compare and I hope this study delves into that. The Y dna in parts of SE and E England imply a mass male replacement, so it would make sense that the original Anglo-Saxons did primarily assimilate women.

Some amateur stats of L21 in England, taken from the English dna project. Even the most "celtic" shifted regions don't surpass 25%. Ireland has over 70% afaik.

Spoiler!

[dududud]

I guess my father has more Celtic ancestor than Anglo-Saxon, if the Celts fled to parts of France (North-Western and other area).

[J. Ketch]

And why does it make sense to model the Irish with Anglo-Saxon samples? Anglo-Saxons aren't a source population of the modern Irish. You should use populations that make historical and genealogical sense when modelling, not just chase the lowest distance possible. Irish are more steppe shifted than the English and the Anglo-Saxon samples are very steppe shifted, hence why they are artificially closer.

Right. Med/Central Euro or Eastern Euro admixture shifts a population away from other NW Euro's more than anything, that's why English are further away from Anglo-Saxons than Irish on G25, also why South Dutch and South/West Germans are even further away, despite all obviously having much more Germanic influence than the Irish. It's why I'm sure sub-Roman Britons had to be noticeably different overall from Irish/Scots, England and Southern England especially wouldn't be so South shifted otherwise.

The English sample on G25 is mostly from Kent I believe, similar to the Southeast English average on Eurogenes K13/K15. The gedmatch averages I've collected from around England so far (including SE England) are different though.

K13
https://i.postimg.cc/VN8V0JHg/k13newcomparison.png
K15
https://i.postimg.cc/m21XdYvV/k15newcomp.png

[J. Ketch]

I look forward to this study. I find the studies title a bit sensationalist, we don't need a study to tell us the early anglo-saxons were overwhelmingly anglo-saxon. I am more interested in how modern English compare and I hope this study delves into that. The Y dna in parts of SE and E England imply a mass male replacement, so it would make sense that the original Anglo-Saxons did primarily assimilate women.

Some amateur stats of L21 in England, taken from the English dna project. Even the most "celtic" shifted regions don't surpass 25%. Ireland has over 70% afaik.

Spoiler!

I made the thread title, and I disagree. I think it's important to know whether the original migration of Anglo-Saxons was large and displaced the local population, or whether it was a smallish band of men who formed a minority elite, and with a founder effect created the modern English y-dna picture, as has often been hypothesised in recent decades (by people who think the Anglo-Saxon autosomal influence was minor).

It's also relevant to the lack of Celtic and Romano-British culture in early England; that's much more understandable with a mass migration.

[J. Ketch]

And why does it make sense to model the Irish with Anglo-Saxon samples? Anglo-Saxons aren't a source population of the modern Irish. You should use populations that make historical and genealogical sense when modelling, not just chase the lowest distance possible. Irish are more steppe shifted than the English and the Anglo-Saxon samples are very steppe shifted, hence why they are artificially closer.

Btw, a PCA is dependent on the populations you choose. The more diverse you make it, the more the PCA will emphasise base similarity between populations (eg Northern Euro vs Med) and ignore recent drift, such as that between Insular Celtic vs Germanic NW Europeans.

Eg, If you look at the West Eurasian PCA here and hover over the European cline, NW and NE Europeans cluster together based on similar levels of Steppe influence.
https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#WestEurasia

The same is true for a whole Europe PCA, it makes NW Euro's cluster together based more on levels of Steppe vs Farmer admixture than Insular Celtic vs Germanic drift.

[J. Ketch]

I guess my father has more Celtic ancestor than Anglo-Saxon, if the Celts fled to parts of France (North-Western and other area).

The level of British ancestry in NW France is a study that should be done, the French don't seem much interested in that sort of thing though, unfortunately.

[Graham]

The level of British ancestry in NW France is a study that should be done, the French don't seem much interested in that sort of thing though, unfortunately.

Pas de rosbif! No Horrible Englishman.

Aye, can't imagine the French starting that study.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Unknowable, and I doubt it.

Southeast/East England had been very Romanised too. I'll be surprised if the Britons the Anglo-Saxons mixed with were exactly like modern Irish/Scots.

Yeah, not because of the Romans though, England oddly enough has the most actual Celtic admixture in the Isles despite being the first ones to stop speaking the language. Irish specifically may have had a lot of extra drift too as they may or may not have been separated from people in Great Britain since the time of the Beakers.

Are the Irish and Scots more "Saxon" than the English?

Global25:

Distance to:	England_Saxon
0.01835674	Irish
0.01852710	Scottish
0.02010173	Orcadian
0.02017702	Shetlandic
0.02112210	English
0.02137730	Welsh
0.02393586	English_Cornwall

A simple model, to be taken with a grain of salt. According to this, the Anglo-Saxon contribution is approximately 15%.

Target: Shetlandic
Distance: 1.7569% / 0.01756912
52.4	England_Saxon
47.6	England_Roman

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1342% / 0.01134196
69.2	England_Roman
30.8	England_Saxon

Target: Scottish
Distance: 0.9918% / 0.00991845
75.2	England_Roman
24.8	England_Saxon

Target: English
Distance: 1.1736% / 0.01173631
84.2	England_Roman
15.8	England_Saxon

Target: Orcadian
Distance: 0.9817% / 0.00981675
84.2	England_Roman
15.8	England_Saxon

Target: Welsh
Distance: 1.2022% / 0.01202204
84.8	England_Roman
15.2	England_Saxon

Target: English_Cornwall
Distance: 1.4197% / 0.01419734
92.4	England_Roman
7.6	England_Saxon

Bad model.

[bandeirante]

Unknowable, and I doubt it.

Southeast/East England had been very Romanised too. I'll be surprised if the Britons the Anglo-Saxons mixed with were exactly like modern Irish/Scots.

not!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani...)#cite_note-22