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Thread: Southern Italians have no ancient Greek ancestry

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    Senior Member manu15151513's Avatar
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    Default Southern Italians have no ancient Greek ancestry

    It seems that the current genetic similarity is practically totally due not to the migration of Magna Graecia but to more remote common ancestors. These estimates suggest a lineage equal to or less than 0.3% on the autosomal genome for eastern Sicily, and being among the southern territories most linked to the ancient Greek gene flow, the southern Italians could be less than 0.1% ancient Greeks overall.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec2

    "Greek colonization of South Italy and Sicily (Magna Graecia) was a defining event in European cultural history, although the demographic processes and genetic impacts involved have not been systematically investigated. Here, we combine high-resolution surveys of the variability at the uni- parentally inherited Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA in selected samples of putative source and recipient populations with forward-in-time simulations of alternative demographic models to detect signatures of that impact. Using a subset of haplotypes chosen to represent historical sources, we recover a clear signature of Greek ancestry in East Sicily compatible with the settlement from Euboea during the Archaic Period (eighth to fifth century BCE). We inferred moderate sex-bias in the numbers of individuals involved in the colonization: a few thousand breeding men and a few hundred breeding women were the estimated number of migrants. Last, we demonstrate that studies aimed at quantifying Hellenic genetic flow by the proportion of specific lineages surviving in present-day populations may be misleading. "


    "To quantify the original demographic impact of the Greek settlers inferable from present-day Y chromosome variability, we explored two main census scenarios using a simulation-based approach. In the first scenario, high count, we based our model on the demographic estimates of Beloch, 18, 19 who suggested a census size of 1.35 million people for Sicily and of 3 million for Greece at the time of the Hellenic colonization in the Archaic Period. In the second scenario, low count, we modeled population size estimates that were smaller by an order of magnitude. 21 Nevertheless, the two scenarios have similar source / recipient effective size ratios (S / R). If we assume that the proportions of past Sicilian, Euboean and Peloponnese census and male (and female) effective population sizes is one-sixth of the current census size, we estimate a S / R of 3.65 for the high-count model and a S / R of 3.75 for the low-count model. Simulation results are reported on Figure 3 and Supplementary Table S8. When Considering Y-STR haplotypes, the observed DHS value between Euboea and East Sicily (0.5353) is compatible with an effective number of migrants ranging between 500 and 5000, clearly rejecting larger contributions (10 000), irrespective of the scenario considered. The DHS value obtained for hypervariable region I haplotypes (0.5995) supports an effective number of migrants between 500 and 1000, with larger contributions clearly excluded. When the NRY- and mtDNA-based estimates are paired according to the demographic model, the male-to-female migrant ratio ranged between 1: 1 and 2: 1 under a population growth model and between 2: 1 and 10: 1 under a constant population size model. "

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    Veteran Member Benyzero's Avatar
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    Northern greeks have no southern italian ancestry

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    Senior Member manu15151513's Avatar
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    Here I discuss the genetic impact of all Greeks involved in migrating from the Greeks starting in the 8th century BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manu15151513 View Post
    It seems that the current genetic similarity is practically totally due not to the migration of Magna Graecia but to more remote common ancestors.
    Then how do you explain that Bronze Age (before Greek colonization) Sicilians were very different than modern Sicilians?

    I am talking for example about these samples (all of them were more West Med / less East Med than modern Sicilians):

    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10372
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10373
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3124
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3125
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3876
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3878
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I4109
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I7796

    ^^^
    None of those samples was close to modern Sicilians, all of them were much more Sardinian/Corsican/Iberian-shifted.

    Using Global25 scaled:

    Code:
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122,0.126344,0.165531,0.028661,-0.063631,0.06832,-0.034304,-0.001175,-0.002769,0.048881,0.087473,-0.001624,0.007493,-0.0333,-0.012661,-0.019815,0.005436,0.028163,0.007221,0.008673,-0.001126,-0.003244,-0.002226,-0.006532,-0.013014,-0.002275
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123,0.120652,0.165531,0.020365,-0.049419,0.049548,-0.020638,0.003055,-0.003461,0.036201,0.06761,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018583,-0.004954,-0.016558,-0.002254,0.011474,-0.003421,-0.004274,-0.015257,-0.00549,-0.00507,-0.009244,-0.014339,0.004431
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124,0.126344,0.160454,0.029415,-0.042636,0.060319,-0.023427,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.026588,0.059773,-0.001137,0.008393,-0.017542,-0.006468,-0.014658,-0.016839,-0.004433,0.00038,0.006536,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.000618,-0.00912,-0.003976,0.000718
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807,0.125205,0.188888,0.015085,-0.066861,0.051394,-0.045459,0,-0.004384,0.03661,0.078179,0.008282,0.015736,-0.016947,0.011973,-0.032437,-0.019491,0.008345,-0.01685,-0.000754,-0.004627,-0.012104,0.003833,-0.014666,-0.011568,-0.000958
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561,0.134311,0.147252,0.043369,-0.01292,0.04924,-0.007251,-0.00423,0.006231,0.03661,0.051026,-0.004222,0.008842,-0.023637,-0.006331,-0.009772,0.001193,0.004433,-0.000633,-0.000754,-0.006878,-0.007736,0.005812,-0.005916,-0.013255,0.003592
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442,0.125205,0.167562,0.023381,-0.061047,0.053548,-0.026216,-0.00705,0.003231,0.032315,0.065058,0.007145,0.011839,-0.018434,-0.005092,-0.017915,-0.019358,-0.00678,-0.006208,0.003645,-0.007253,-0.004742,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.014219,0.004311
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878,0.119514,0.168578,0.015462,-0.063631,0.049855,-0.029562,-0.00799,-0.005538,0.026997,0.063054,-0.001786,0.01094,-0.019475,-0.011836,-0.019951,0.00053,0.011343,-0.003041,-0.00088,-0.003752,-0.009733,-0.003091,-0.006655,-0.014219,-0.005389
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372,0.133173,0.174671,0.00792,-0.065892,0.049855,-0.026216,-0.006815,-0.004384,0.033951,0.063965,-0.003248,0.008542,-0.02438,-0.001514,-0.025244,-0.031822,-0.005607,0.005321,0.01081,-0.015257,-0.009982,-0.00136,-0.005669,-0.013737,0.002155
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125,0.120652,0.162485,0.004148,-0.065569,0.045239,-0.023985,0.00611,-0.004154,0.027611,0.069796,0.004384,0.015736,-0.024975,-0.009358,-0.023072,0.004641,0.029467,-0.00038,0.005154,-0.004002,0.001123,0.00371,-0.00986,-0.013496,-0.001557
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109,0.118376,0.170609,0.007165,-0.076228,0.053856,-0.026495,-0.000705,-0.003231,0.030065,0.074717,-0.001137,0.017235,-0.024529,0.003578,-0.02253,-0.014717,-0.005215,-0.00114,0.004022,-0.015507,-0.009858,-0.00272,0.000986,-0.012411,0.005748
    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109
    0.04965037 Sardinian
    0.08508219 French_Corsica
    0.09017750 Italian_Lazio
    0.09213939 Sicilian_East
    0.09222862 Italian_Apulia

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125
    0.04666990 Sardinian
    0.07385622 French_Corsica
    0.07954924 Italian_Lazio
    0.08206636 Italian_Umbria
    0.08365708 Italian_Campania

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
    0.05491102 Sardinian
    0.08114985 French_Corsica
    0.08848051 Italian_Lazio
    0.09046529 Italian_Apulia
    0.09049673 Italian_Lombardy

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
    0.03782324 Sardinian
    0.06554333 French_Corsica
    0.07313148 Italian_Lazio
    0.07696144 Italian_Umbria
    0.07903601 Italian_Tuscany

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
    0.05478154 Sardinian
    0.05759252 French_Corsica
    0.06271652 Italian_Lazio
    0.06441082 Italian_Apulia
    0.06478119 Sicilian_East

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442
    0.03826780 Sardinian
    0.06881276 French_Corsica
    0.07897987 Italian_Lombardy
    0.07979584 Italian_Lazio
    0.08131195 Italian_Bergamo

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561
    0.03979033 Spanish_Pirineu
    0.04029966 Spanish_La_Rioja
    0.04193531 Spanish_Castello
    0.04293118 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.04320926 French_South

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807
    0.06047338 Sardinian
    0.09852818 French_Corsica
    0.10543786 Italian_Lazio
    0.10808443 Sicilian_East
    0.10825288 Italian_Apulia

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124
    0.04159034 Sardinian
    0.05265708 French_Corsica
    0.06018985 Italian_Lombardy
    0.06168108 Italian_Bergamo
    0.06529842 Spanish_Menorca

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123
    0.02793917 Sardinian
    0.05974928 French_Corsica
    0.07272875 Spanish_La_Rioja
    0.07284828 Italian_Lazio
    0.07422434 Italian_Bergamo

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122
    0.03812461 Sardinian
    0.09521185 Spanish_La_Rioja
    0.09578470 French_Corsica
    0.10773453 Spanish_Murcia
    0.10912516 Spanish_Castello

    =====

    Modern Sicilians are probably mostly descended from Greek and Phoenician settlers.
    Last edited by Peterski; 10-06-2020 at 03:46 PM.
    My DNA Origin analysis for 16 EUR (you get 2 reports examining ancestry from 2114 regions, 190 countries): https://www.exploreyourdna.com/DNAOrigin.aspx

    This analysis is not based on G25 but on ADMIXTURE. And it has more regions than any other DNA test!

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    Sicilians are just regular South Italians with some North African dna (max 5%). Real Greek ancestry (Mycenaean like) is probably no more than 10/20%. The East Med input is related to Bronze Anatolians, while the rest is a mix of various Euro ancestries.

    Ezekiel 18:4

    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deusex99 View Post
    Sicilians are just regular South Italians with some North African dna (max 5%). Real Greek ancestry (Mycenaean like) is probably no more than 10/20%. The East Med input is related to Bronze Anatolians, while the rest is a mix of various Euro ancestries.

    But what happened to Bronze Age Sicilians?
    My DNA Origin analysis for 16 EUR (you get 2 reports examining ancestry from 2114 regions, 190 countries): https://www.exploreyourdna.com/DNAOrigin.aspx

    This analysis is not based on G25 but on ADMIXTURE. And it has more regions than any other DNA test!

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    Cool story

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    But what happened to Bronze Age Sicilians?
    Wiped out by plagues spread by Indo Europeans??? There weren't many of them to begin with.
    Ezekiel 18:4

    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deusex99 View Post
    Wiped out by plagues spread by Indo Europeans???
    By what Indo-Europeans? The first Indo-Europeans who came there were Greeks...
    My DNA Origin analysis for 16 EUR (you get 2 reports examining ancestry from 2114 regions, 190 countries): https://www.exploreyourdna.com/DNAOrigin.aspx

    This analysis is not based on G25 but on ADMIXTURE. And it has more regions than any other DNA test!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Then how do you explain that Bronze Age (before Greek colonization) Sicilians were very different than modern Sicilians?

    I am talking for example about these samples (all of them were more West Med / less East Med than modern Sicilians):

    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10372
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10373
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3124
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3125
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3876
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3878
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I4109
    Bronze-Age-Sicily-I7796

    ^^^
    None of those samples was close to modern Sicilians, all of them were much more Sardinian/Corsican/Iberian-shifted.

    Using Global25 scaled:

    Code:
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122,0.126344,0.165531,0.028661,-0.063631,0.06832,-0.034304,-0.001175,-0.002769,0.048881,0.087473,-0.001624,0.007493,-0.0333,-0.012661,-0.019815,0.005436,0.028163,0.007221,0.008673,-0.001126,-0.003244,-0.002226,-0.006532,-0.013014,-0.002275
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123,0.120652,0.165531,0.020365,-0.049419,0.049548,-0.020638,0.003055,-0.003461,0.036201,0.06761,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018583,-0.004954,-0.016558,-0.002254,0.011474,-0.003421,-0.004274,-0.015257,-0.00549,-0.00507,-0.009244,-0.014339,0.004431
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124,0.126344,0.160454,0.029415,-0.042636,0.060319,-0.023427,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.026588,0.059773,-0.001137,0.008393,-0.017542,-0.006468,-0.014658,-0.016839,-0.004433,0.00038,0.006536,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.000618,-0.00912,-0.003976,0.000718
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807,0.125205,0.188888,0.015085,-0.066861,0.051394,-0.045459,0,-0.004384,0.03661,0.078179,0.008282,0.015736,-0.016947,0.011973,-0.032437,-0.019491,0.008345,-0.01685,-0.000754,-0.004627,-0.012104,0.003833,-0.014666,-0.011568,-0.000958
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561,0.134311,0.147252,0.043369,-0.01292,0.04924,-0.007251,-0.00423,0.006231,0.03661,0.051026,-0.004222,0.008842,-0.023637,-0.006331,-0.009772,0.001193,0.004433,-0.000633,-0.000754,-0.006878,-0.007736,0.005812,-0.005916,-0.013255,0.003592
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442,0.125205,0.167562,0.023381,-0.061047,0.053548,-0.026216,-0.00705,0.003231,0.032315,0.065058,0.007145,0.011839,-0.018434,-0.005092,-0.017915,-0.019358,-0.00678,-0.006208,0.003645,-0.007253,-0.004742,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.014219,0.004311
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878,0.119514,0.168578,0.015462,-0.063631,0.049855,-0.029562,-0.00799,-0.005538,0.026997,0.063054,-0.001786,0.01094,-0.019475,-0.011836,-0.019951,0.00053,0.011343,-0.003041,-0.00088,-0.003752,-0.009733,-0.003091,-0.006655,-0.014219,-0.005389
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372,0.133173,0.174671,0.00792,-0.065892,0.049855,-0.026216,-0.006815,-0.004384,0.033951,0.063965,-0.003248,0.008542,-0.02438,-0.001514,-0.025244,-0.031822,-0.005607,0.005321,0.01081,-0.015257,-0.009982,-0.00136,-0.005669,-0.013737,0.002155
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125,0.120652,0.162485,0.004148,-0.065569,0.045239,-0.023985,0.00611,-0.004154,0.027611,0.069796,0.004384,0.015736,-0.024975,-0.009358,-0.023072,0.004641,0.029467,-0.00038,0.005154,-0.004002,0.001123,0.00371,-0.00986,-0.013496,-0.001557
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109,0.118376,0.170609,0.007165,-0.076228,0.053856,-0.026495,-0.000705,-0.003231,0.030065,0.074717,-0.001137,0.017235,-0.024529,0.003578,-0.02253,-0.014717,-0.005215,-0.00114,0.004022,-0.015507,-0.009858,-0.00272,0.000986,-0.012411,0.005748
    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109
    0.04965037 Sardinian
    0.08508219 French_Corsica
    0.09017750 Italian_Lazio
    0.09213939 Sicilian_East
    0.09222862 Italian_Apulia

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125
    0.04666990 Sardinian
    0.07385622 French_Corsica
    0.07954924 Italian_Lazio
    0.08206636 Italian_Umbria
    0.08365708 Italian_Campania

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
    0.05491102 Sardinian
    0.08114985 French_Corsica
    0.08848051 Italian_Lazio
    0.09046529 Italian_Apulia
    0.09049673 Italian_Lombardy

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
    0.03782324 Sardinian
    0.06554333 French_Corsica
    0.07313148 Italian_Lazio
    0.07696144 Italian_Umbria
    0.07903601 Italian_Tuscany

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
    0.05478154 Sardinian
    0.05759252 French_Corsica
    0.06271652 Italian_Lazio
    0.06441082 Italian_Apulia
    0.06478119 Sicilian_East

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442
    0.03826780 Sardinian
    0.06881276 French_Corsica
    0.07897987 Italian_Lombardy
    0.07979584 Italian_Lazio
    0.08131195 Italian_Bergamo

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561
    0.03979033 Spanish_Pirineu
    0.04029966 Spanish_La_Rioja
    0.04193531 Spanish_Castello
    0.04293118 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.04320926 French_South

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807
    0.06047338 Sardinian
    0.09852818 French_Corsica
    0.10543786 Italian_Lazio
    0.10808443 Sicilian_East
    0.10825288 Italian_Apulia

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124
    0.04159034 Sardinian
    0.05265708 French_Corsica
    0.06018985 Italian_Lombardy
    0.06168108 Italian_Bergamo
    0.06529842 Spanish_Menorca

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123
    0.02793917 Sardinian
    0.05974928 French_Corsica
    0.07272875 Spanish_La_Rioja
    0.07284828 Italian_Lazio
    0.07422434 Italian_Bergamo

    Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122
    0.03812461 Sardinian
    0.09521185 Spanish_La_Rioja
    0.09578470 French_Corsica
    0.10773453 Spanish_Murcia
    0.10912516 Spanish_Castello

    =====

    Modern Sicilians are probably mostly descended from Greek and Phoenician settlers.

    About 5000-5500 years ago groups of people migrated from the Caucasus to the areas around Turkey and the coastal east and about 3500-4000 years ago they migrated to Southern Italy and then spread to the rest of the country, greatly increasing the East Med and CHG to the detriment of the Neolithic one in the Sardinian sense, which was not essentially affected by this latter migratory flow. This is the almost exclusive cause of the spread of the paternal haplogroup J2a. Haplogroups and other evidence point to very strong reproductive isolation after indoeuropean expansion, so the more parsimonious explanation absolutely negates the impact of those groups. Haven't read the thread? It practically seems far-fetched.

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