Southern Italians have no ancient Greek ancestry

[TheMaestro]

Your photos look creepier than Mortimers.

[manu15151513]

Your photos look creepier than Mortimers.

You are right.

[Peterski]

About 5000-5500 years ago groups of people migrated from the Caucasus to the areas around Turkey and the coastal east and about 3500-4000 years ago they migrated to Southern Italy and then spread to the rest of the country, greatly increasing the East Med and CHG to the detriment of the Neolithic one in the Sardinian sense, which was not essentially affected by this latter migratory flow. This is the almost exclusive cause of the spread of the paternal haplogroup J2a. Haplogroups and other evidence point to very strong reproductive isolation after indoeuropean expansion, so the more parsimonious explanation absolutely negates the impact of those groups. Haven't read the thread? It practically seems far-fetched.

Those Bronze Age Sicilians are much younger than 4000 years. They lived immediately before the Greek colonization of Sicily:

https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Sample = age according to the link above

I3876 = C14 dated to 1071-902 calBCE
I10372 = 1374-1131 calBCE (3005±20 BP)
I10373 = 1450-1150 BCE (the son of I3878)
I3878 = 1379-1196 calBCE (3015±20 BP)
I3125 = 1612-1506 calBCE (3275±20 BP)
I4109 = 1631-1509 calBCE (3300±25 BP)
I7796 = 1879-1691 calBCE (3455±25 BP)
I3124 = 1948-1777 calBCE (3545±20 BP)

^^^
You wrote that Greek started migrating to Sicily in the 8th century BC, so I3876 is not much older than the arrival of Greeks:

Greeks involved in migrating from the Greeks starting in the 8th century BC.

[TheMaestro]

You are right.

No, my name is TheMaestro

[TheMaestro]

You are right.

No, my name is TheMaestro

[Peterski]

Here is what these Ancient Sicilian samples score in Eurogenes K36 (post modern South Italian results for comparison):

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3876
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0.84
Armenian 2.11
Basque 4.63
Central African 0
Central Euro 1.76
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 5.7
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 15.57
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 10.98
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 29.3
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 5.52
North African 2.06
North Atlantic 3.33
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 1.67
West Med 16.54

=====

Ancient Sicilian I10372
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 5.53
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 1.41
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 19.73
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 15.14
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 35.17
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 23.02

=====

Ancient Sicilian I10373
Amerindian 0
Arabian 1.98
Armenian 2.77
Basque 2.96
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 1.93
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 14.08
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 24.07
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 30.14
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0.59
North African 0.85
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 20.64

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3878
Amerindian 0
Arabian 2.71
Armenian 6.71
Basque 2.04
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 3.42
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 12.24
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 3.54
Iberian 18.13
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 26.39
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 1.87
North African 1
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 21.94

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3125
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 1.81
Basque 2
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 5.12
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 14.22
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 15.54
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 32.66
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 6.93
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 21.71

=====

Ancient Sicilian I4109
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 1.42
Basque 0
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 3
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 12.62
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 15.73
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 36.35
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 5.15
North African 1.84
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 23.89

=====

Ancient Sicilian I7796
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0.35
Armenian 0.7
Basque 0
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 0.05
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 18.17
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 25.28
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 26.25
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0.01
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0.01
South Central Asian 0.01
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0.01
West Caucasian 5.02
West Med 24.28

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3124
Amerindian 0
Arabian 2.12
Armenian 0
Basque 3.72
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0.17
East Balkan 1.12
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 11.57
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 2.51
Iberian 28.73
Indo-Chinese 0.06
Italian 34.35
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 1.69
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 13.97

=====

[Peterski]

Eurogenes K13:

AncientSicilian_I10372,24.61,0,42.35,0,32.25,0.78,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I10373,20.05,1.91,44.6,0,30.64,2.04,0,0.76,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3124,29.94,3.22,38.03,0,25.21,2.8,0,0.3,0,0,0.5,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3125,21.35,0,41.69,1.19,32.23,2.69,0,0.53,0,0,0.32,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3876,22.21,3.82,35.95,3.19,31.27,2.64,0,0.13,0,0,0.57,0,0.22
AncientSicilian_I3878,23.91,0,41.45,0.37,29.21,4.95,0,0.11,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I4109,18.64,0,44.84,1.67,28.82,5.72,0,0.32,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I7796,21,0,42.68,0,32.43,2.5,0,0,0,1.39,0,0,0

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I7796
11.52736744 Sardinia
14.52264439 Sardinian
20.90261228 FrenchCorsica
24.49838158 West_Sicilian
24.59187264 Moroccan_Jew

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I4109
9.23414858 Sardinia
11.68246121 Sardinian
21.65917588 FrenchCorsica
25.32858069 West_Sicilian
26.00318634 Lazio

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3878
9.27732720 Sardinia
13.50091108 Sardinian
18.12545172 FrenchCorsica
22.72793215 Tuscan
23.01950695 West_Sicilian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3876
13.06826691 FrenchCorsica
14.78495181 Sardinia
16.26220465 West_Sicilian
16.95231548 Lazio
17.03654601 Tuscan

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3125
11.61199380 Sardinia
14.98889589 Sardinian
19.64008147 FrenchCorsica
23.07483694 West_Sicilian
23.31171379 Moroccan_Jew

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3124
11.50652858 Sardinia
13.56817600 FrenchCorsica
16.31971201 Sardinian
17.05773725 Lombardy
18.15685821 Spanish_Andalucia

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10373
9.44177949 Sardinia
11.94877400 Sardinian
21.19610813 FrenchCorsica
25.42991742 West_Sicilian
25.83756180 Lazio

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10372
11.25767738 Sardinia
14.68303443 Sardinian
20.04231274 FrenchCorsica
24.50861073 Tuscan
24.65350685 West_Sicilian

=====

Eurogenes K15:

AncientSicilian_I10372,1.46,29.79,0,0,36.96,2.37,27.57,1.84,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I10373,3.45,21.21,4.07,0,39.44,2.21,26.13,3.09,0,0.4,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3124,9.9,25.69,5.12,0,34.19,0,21.06,3.82,0,0.11,0,0,0.11,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3125,8.78,16.27,1.43,0,37.9,3.74,28,3.36,0,0.32,0,0,0.2,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3876,4.86,21.86,5.56,0,31.2,5.94,25.55,4.57,0,0,0,0,0.35,0,0.12
AncientSicilian_I3878,7.29,21.65,0.55,0,37.08,2.56,25.41,5.45,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I4109,1.27,22.57,0.63,0,40.33,3.66,24.58,6.95,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I7796,3.33,21.99,0,0,38.79,4.53,25.99,4.21,0,0,0,1.17,0,0,0

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I7796
13.93344179 Sardinian
23.94542963 West_Sicilian
24.35632361 Tuscan
25.32865373 Algerian_Jewish
25.77625652 North_Italian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I4109
12.89108995 Sardinian
26.18503771 West_Sicilian
26.44064107 Tuscan
27.36827178 Algerian_Jewish
27.58737755 North_Italian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3878
14.44253440 Sardinian
21.69891472 Tuscan
22.09934841 West_Sicilian
22.66344634 North_Italian
24.42764213 Algerian_Jewish

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3876
15.97820390 West_Sicilian
16.45841122 Tuscan
18.66615922 South_Italian
18.96693966 North_Italian
19.41084748 East_Sicilian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3125
16.23572912 Sardinian
22.09341305 West_Sicilian
22.35378715 Tuscan
22.83426811 Algerian_Jewish
23.39781186 South_Italian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3124
15.98435172 Sardinian
17.59775270 North_Italian
17.65960645 Spanish_Andalucia
19.21933922 Tuscan
19.67041687 Spanish_Valencia

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10373
12.61784054 Sardinian
24.67511499 West_Sicilian
24.72213179 Tuscan
25.75110677 North_Italian
26.26147368 Algerian_Jewish

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10372
18.23174704 Sardinian
26.19780907 West_Sicilian
26.54679265 Spanish_Andalucia
26.76649585 Tuscan
27.29980586 North_Italian

[Ajeje Brazorf]

It seems that the current genetic similarity is practically totally due not to the migration of Magna Graecia but to more remote common ancestors. These estimates suggest a lineage equal to or less than 0.3% on the autosomal genome for eastern Sicily, and being among the southern territories most linked to the ancient Greek gene flow, the southern Italians could be less than 0.1% ancient Greeks overall.

The ethno-genesis of southern Italians is very recent, so you can also throw away all the narrative of remote connections and so on. The Roman-age Levantine contribution is much greater than the ancient Greek one, but it makes no sense to say that the latter is less than 0.1%. Instead, it is more realistic to say that the ancient Greek contribution is there, but it is not a predominant part being less than 25% in the average southern Italian.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec2

"To quantify the original demographic impact of the Greek settlers inferable from present-day Y chromosome variability, we explored two main census scenarios using a simulation-based approach. In the first scenario, high count, we based our model on the demographic estimates of Beloch, 18, 19 who suggested a census size of 1.35 million people for Sicily and of 3 million for Greece at the time of the Hellenic colonization in the Archaic Period. In the second scenario, low count, we modeled population size estimates that were smaller by an order of magnitude. 21 Nevertheless, the two scenarios have similar source / recipient effective size ratios (S / R). If we assume that the proportions of past Sicilian, Euboean and Peloponnese census and male (and female) effective population sizes is one-sixth of the current census size, we estimate a S / R of 3.65 for the high-count model and a S / R of 3.75 for the low-count model. Simulation results are reported on Figure 3 and Supplementary Table S8. When Considering Y-STR haplotypes, the observed DHS value between Euboea and East Sicily (0.5353) is compatible with an effective number of migrants ranging between 500 and 5000, clearly rejecting larger contributions (10 000), irrespective of the scenario considered. The DHS value obtained for hypervariable region I haplotypes (0.5995) supports an effective number of migrants between 500 and 1000, with larger contributions clearly excluded. When the NRY- and mtDNA-based estimates are paired according to the demographic model, the male-to-female migrant ratio ranged between 1: 1 and 2: 1 under a population growth model and between 2: 1 and 10: 1 under a constant population size model. "

The impact of the ancient Greeks must be quantified with autosomal DNA, not with conjectures or Y chromosome.

About 5000-5500 years ago groups of people migrated from the Caucasus to the areas around Turkey and the coastal east and about 3500-4000 years ago they migrated to Southern Italy and then spread to the rest of the country, greatly increasing the East Med and CHG to the detriment of the Neolithic one in the Sardinian sense, which was not essentially affected by this latter migratory flow. This is the almost exclusive cause of the spread of the paternal haplogroup J2a. Haplogroups and other evidence point to very strong reproductive isolation after indoeuropean expansion, so the more parsimonious explanation absolutely negates the impact of those groups. Haven't read the thread? It practically seems far-fetched.

Brother, you don't know what you're talking about. The Sicilians of that period were only 6% CHG and the Levantine component was almost completely missing.

[Jana]

Don't see how can you prove that they don't. I'm pretty sure they do have significant ancient Greek ancestry.

[Deusex99]

The ethno-genesis of southern Italians is very recent, so you can also throw away all the narrative of remote connections and so on. The Roman-age Levantine contribution is much greater than the ancient Greek one

It's about the same and both are only slightly above 10%. Main components are Anatolian and Italo-Celtic. Moreover using a southern less Kavkaz shifted Anatolian source completely eliminates the Levantine admixture. That doesn't work for truly semitic admixed populations like the Jews.