Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

[vbnetkhio]

In Serb central are Lika, Dalmatian and west/central Serbia Serbs who are not connected geographically and historically. On the other hand Kordun/Banija Serbs are in Serb North together with Vojvodinian Serbs, again not connected groups.
Kordun/Banija Serbs are connected with Lika and little less with Dalmatian Serbs.
Serbs regionally (geographically, linguistically) are divided on the line southeast-northwest, not south-north.

Yes, the old averages were divided just by latitude, because it looked like only that was important for autosomal differences. For example, the old Vojvodina average from very few samples was identical to the Banija/Kordun average, so I merged them.

Now we know that's not true, so there has to be some change to the averages.

In Serb_Herzegovina cluster vbn included western part of Montenegro known as Old Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Herzegovina
Most of the Old Herzegovina is part of Montenegro since 1878 and smaller part since 1912. I think samples from there should be in Serb_Montenegro cluster. People from Old Herzegovina are mixed with people from other parts of Montenegro for the long time, linguistically they are "montenegrized" and historically Old Herzegovina is tribal region like most of the rest of Montenegro.
In the last over 100 years Herzergovinian Serbs are only from part of Herzegovina which belong to BiH (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovina), they are not tribal neither montenegrized like people from Old (Montenegrin) Herzegovina.

I made it like that because my Herzegovina samples are mostly from the B&H/Montenegro border with ancestry from both sides of the border. So I thought it wouldn't be correct to merge them with Montenegrins.
But from the current samples I don't see a difference between East and Old Herzegovina, so I also made the current "Montenegrin" country average which is weighted from the Serb Herzegovina and Serb South Montenegro averages.

My proposal for regional Serbian averages:
Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
Serb_Serbia_west_and central
Serb_Serbia_south_and_east
Serb_Montenegro
Serb_BiH_Herzegovina
Serb_BiH_Bosnia
Serb_Croatia

I agree. I thought of something like this too. Bulgaria is divided into 6 averages, and I think it describes their genetics well. Serbs are spread on a wider territory so around 8 averages will be ideal.
The only things I would change, since there is already a Montenegrin country average, as I explained, I would keep the "Serb Herzegovina" and "Serb South Montenegro" as they are.
I would also keep the West and Central Serbia separate, those are large regions with millions of people, and the sample size is good.

[Varda]

Most of us originated from the same place - the eastern areas of the Dinaric mountain range. Even southern Serbs aren't really different from the rest. We don't need a whole bunch of averages, although I agree the grouping should be done based on dialect rather than geography.

7 clusters is not too much.

Origin of most of the Serbs from east Herzegovina and Montenegro is just myth. Bosanska Krajina, Bosnia proper and western Serbia Serbs in mainstream are 100% of Herzegovinian and Montenegrin origin, and they are different on average then both Herzegovinian and Montenegrin Serbs (vbn averages posted on thread Serbian autosomal dna 2).

[Varda]

Yes, the old averages were divided just by latitude, because it looked like only that was important for autosomal differences. For example, the old Vojvodina average from very few samples was identical to the Banija/Kordun average, so I merged them.

Now we know that's not true, so there has to be some change to the averages.



I made it like that because my Herzegovina samples are mostly from the B&H/Montenegro border with ancestry from both sides of the border. So I thought it wouldn't be correct to merge them with Montenegrins.
But from the current samples I don't see a difference between East and Old Herzegovina, so I also made the current "Montenegrin" country average which is weighted from the Serb Herzegovina and Serb South Montenegro averages.



I agree. I thought of something like this too. Bulgaria is divided into 6 averages, and I think it describes their genetics well. Serbs are spread on a wider territory so around 8 averages will be ideal.
The only things I would change, since there is already a Montenegrin country average, as I explained, I would keep the "Serb Herzegovina" and "Serb South Montenegro" as they are.
I would also keep the West and Central Serbia separate, those are large regions with millions of people, and the sample size is good.

I agree. 7-8 averages is not too much for Serbs.

Bulgarians have 6 averages, and they are not more numerous than Serbs and they live on smaller territory than Serbs.

[vbnetkhio]

That makes sense, the current splitting up of Croatia North vs South into different regions for example doesn't really make much sense to me.

There actually is a difference. Lika Serbs with cca. 50 samples don't go above 34% Baltic, and in Banija there is already a couple of 36% Baltic samples.
This is already a significant difference since Serb averages are all 1-3% away from each other. That's why I made this divison.

But i'm sure all the other regions can also be divided into such sub-regions, I just don't have enough samples for that.
Serbs from Croatia just test more than the others, so we can already see these micro differencers.

So I agree, let's merge those 2 for now.

[Ayetooey]

There actually is a difference. Lika Serbs with cca. 50 samples don't go above 34% Baltic, and in Banija there is already a couple of 36% Baltic samples.
This is already a significant difference since Serb averages are all 1-3% away from each other. That's why I made this divison.

But i'm sure all the other regions can also be divided into such sub-regions, I just don't have enough samples for that.
Serbs from Croatia just test more than the others, so we can already see these micro differencers.

So I agree, let's merge those 2 for now.

36% is pretty high, even for Croats. Whats the highest baltic among Dalmatian Serbs? I have plenty of samples in my list I can post at some point. I think the issue for me was less the splitting of them up, which I find ok if there's going to be lots and lots of regions, but the fact they were split up and then regrouped separately with regions they have less historical overlap with in Serbia proper. But yeah, this seems like the right decision for the time being.

[Varda]

36% is pretty high, even for Croats. Whats the highest baltic among Dalmatian Serbs? I have plenty of samples in my list I can post at some point. I think the issue for me was less the splitting of them up, which I find ok if there's going to be lots and lots of regions, but the fact they were split up and then regrouped separately with regions they have less historical overlap with in Serbia proper. But yeah, this seems like the right decision for the time being.

35.28%

Look down https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6549936

[vbnetkhio]

36% is pretty high, even for Croats.

and the region average is 30%.
Croats can have up to 40% and their averages are mostly around 32-34.
That's how it is for all ethnicities, individual results always have a large +- range from the average.

Whats the highest baltic among Dalmatian Serbs? I have plenty of samples in my list I can post at some point.

It's your father with 31%. That would be great, I have only 9 Dalmatian Serb samples.[/QUOTE]

[vbnetkhio]

35.28%

Look down https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6549936

he's not confirmed. only his paternal line is Dalmatian Serb.

[Varda]

and the region average is 30%.
Croats can have up to 40% and their averages are mostly around 32-34.
That's how it is for all ethnicities, individual results always have a large +- range from the average.


It's your father with 31%. That would be great, I have only 9 Dalmatian Serb samples.

Dalmatian Serb (surname Tintor), quite similar Baltic and NA as Aye's father https://i.ibb.co/mzgC5Wd/Screenshot-...2-Chrome-2.jpg

He is former member of Poreklo, he is from village near Zadar (J2b-M205 is his y dna)

[vbnetkhio]

this is what Lucas should add:

Serb_Bosnia,24.92,31.27,16.57,9.03,14.29,1.28,0.52,0.30,0.84,0.39,0.47,0.07,0.05
Serb_Croatia,25.35,30.09,16.65,8.84,15.35,1.52,0.51,0.30,0.51,0.41,0.34,0.08,0.04
Serb_Herzegovina,24.24,28.42,17.69,9.12,16.53,1.92,0.17,0.27,0.57,0.44,0.4,0.16,0.07
Serb_Southern_Montenegro,24.06,25.44,18.66,10.11,17.52,2.21,0.27,0.26,0.74,0.37,0.28,0.02,0.05
Serb_Serbia_South,23.55,28.45,16.82,9.8,16.96,2.09,0.51,0.30,0.60,0.38,0.27,0.12,0.12
Serb_Serbia_Central,24.89,29.52,16.74,8.49,16.39,1.75,0.27,0.23,0.73,0.53,0.24,0.07,0.09
Serb_Serbia_West,25.54,29.32,17.4,9.21,14.74,1.29,0.57,0.25,0.85,0.48,0.2,0.06,0.1
Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina,24.72,28.71,17.21,9.07,16.01,1.5,0.65,0.5,0.54,0.53,0.3,0.07,0.15