Origins of I2a1: Is it Slavic?

**Slavic Italian** · 07-09-2021, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Veljo

lol, what if it happened in the Middle Ages (Migration Period/Barbarian Invasions )?

Half of Germany is Slavic.

**Roy** · 07-09-2021, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Varda

Only I2-Y3120 is Slavic branch of I2a https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

How much Slavic ancestry do Romanians? Surely not a lot.

**Jana** · 07-09-2021, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Roy

How much Slavic ancestry do Romanians? Surely not a lot.

A lot actually, but on average they have even more southern European like ancestry (Balkan, Roman etc)

**Dušan** · 07-09-2021, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Roy

How much Slavic ancestry do Romanians? Surely not a lot.

If these K13 ancient samples are accurate, then 50% on average:

Code:

Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1548_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,13.7,7.83,17.2,21.18,31.85,6.18,0.1,0,1.17,0,0.7,0.07,0.01
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R835_Marche_Roman_Imperial,17.48,7.33,22.76,15.83,28.17,4.29,2.11,0,0,0.18,0.49,0,1.37
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R50_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.8,5.92,19.69,18.96,31.66,8.21,1.77,0.13,0,0,0,0,0.87
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,6.85,0,21.95,22.6,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75,0,0,0.22,0,0.71
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R32_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy,15.10,6.10,27.02,17.20,26.77,5.20,0.00,0.37,0.00,0.07,0.74,0.00,1.44
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R131_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,18.55,6.06,22.93,13.3,31.22,5.99,0,1.15,0,0.4,0,0,0.4
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R38_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,1.92,0,18.71,28.11,41.51,8.68,0,0,0,0.45,0.34,0,0.28
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R40_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,14.72,0,23,19.52,36.2,5.66,0,0.47,0.15,0,0,0,0.27
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,25.73,7.27,26.59,13.06,25.7,1.65,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,25.73,4.01,26.05,11.36,28.27,3.92,0,0,0,0.46,0.2,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R114_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,17.19,6.78,18.04,19.02,29.56,7.35,0.58,0.77,0,0.7,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R123_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,12.03,4.13,19.45,20.54,37.07,3.99,0,0.97,0,0,1.83,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,2.63,8.5,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0,0,0,0.84,0.55,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1544_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,16.53,4.64,21.39,18.62,31.87,3.82,1.51,0,0.43,0.3,0.89,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1545_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.35,3.4,22.3,23.93,31.78,7.44,0.06,0,0,0,0.73,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.31,0,12.6,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R39_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,9.38,2.57,24.97,19.78,34.82,5.66,0,1.74,0.29,0.78,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R43_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.19,0,22.2,21.83,39.45,3.15,0.45,0,0,0.08,0.65,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R44_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,14.45,0,23.48,18.04,38.86,5.16,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R51_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,20.47,1.28,20.11,15.05,34.89,5.56,0,0.17,0,0.59,1.88,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R66_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,7.81,1.07,23.57,24.26,37.48,4.96,0,0,0,0,0.85,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R69_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.48,4.41,24.55,22.98,33.7,0.54,0,0.59,0,0.5,0.25,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R71_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,6.09,0.06,20.33,24.54,44.64,3.4,0,0,0,0,0.94,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R72_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.24,0,22.92,19.04,41.2,5.12,0,0,0.57,0,0.91,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R78_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.76,2.77,22.82,22.14,43.72,2.03,0,0.1,0,0.27,0.39,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R81_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,11.54,2.43,22.21,17.14,39.17,4.79,1.98,0,0,0,0.74,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R836_Marche_Roman_Imperial,17.9,4.35,25.43,19.62,29.98,1.61,0,0,0,0.28,0.83,0,0
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Avar_daughter.or.mother.AV1_1356_ybp,30.22,47.46,11.05,4.34,3.01,0.41,0.55,0,1.56,0.94,0,0.46,0
Slavic:Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp,25.17,45.83,13.05,4.29,6.41,0.44,0.00,0.03,2.59,1.13,0.64,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11.70,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0.00,1.18,0.56,0.79,0.00,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0.00,0.00,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26,8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.53,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63,3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.37,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14.97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11.7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
Slavic:KRA011_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.3,0.14,0,1.4,1.27,1.1,0.21
Slavic:KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43,0.52,0.01,1.2,0.71,0.61,0.27
Slavic:VK494_Poland_Sandomierz,32.56,47.37,12.86,2.56,0,0,0.82,2.53,0.31,0.22,0,0.77,0
Slavic:VK466_Russia_Gnezdovo,25.85,43.15,9.22,12.82,0,0,2.34,0.15,0,2.09,1.69,0,2.69
Slavic:VK340_Denmark_Jutland,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:VK70_Denmark_Sealand,52.29,23.74,12.54,6.47,0.3,0,0.81,1.13,0.06,1.05,0.67,0,0.94
Germanic:VK71_Denmark_Sealand,50.44,30.82,9.69,0.59,2.98,0,0,0,0,1.69,3.35,0,0.45
Germanic:VK296_Denmark_Sealand,47.81,32.58,6.95,3.19,0.95,3.53,0.65,0.12,0.46,1.63,0.74,1.39,0
Germanic:VK297_Denmark_Sealand,50.8,29.78,9.51,3.37,0,1.41,0.27,0.5,3.26,0.29,0.61,0,0.21
Germanic:AED106_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp,45.38,30.61,9.37,10.33,0.00,0.05,0.82,0.00,0.00,1.56,1.13,0.05,0.70
Germanic:AED249_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp,45.91,36.06,8.53,3.83,0.00,2.62,1.36,1.26,0.42,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,50.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.11,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:NW255a_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1476_ybp,52.54,25.61,7.98,6.28,0.00,5.74,0.00,0.00,0.07,0.00,0.37,0.00,1.41
Germanic:STR316b_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp,56.84,24.99,10.89,0.62,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.17,1.56,1.93,0.52,0.82,0.42
Germanic:STR480_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp,48.57,26.47,16.11,4.79,0.00,1.51,0.93,0.87,0.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.13
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,1 5.48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4 .45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,1 6.18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4. 61,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104. SG_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40, 8.60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,1 5.92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4. 84,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23 .89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5. 38,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14 .78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.4 6,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17 .53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.8 9,0.20,0.00,0.00

Code:

 
Romania_average,23.31,26.03,17.34,10.46,17.38,1.95,0.70,0.65,1.09,0.52,0.36,0.12,0.09
Romania_Banat,22.75,25.65,17.78,10.71,17.71,2.06,0.84,0.55,1.21,0.40,0.21,0.07,0.09
Romania_Crisana,25.58,26.36,17.69,9.50,16.32,1.25,0.82,0.62,0.85,0.59,0.25,0.12,0.06
Romania_Dobruja,22.11,24.93,17.64,11.00,18.49,2.23,0.71,0.87,1.25,0.37,0.28,0.07,0.06
Romania_Maramures,24.38,28.43,16.90,9.19,15.65,2.06,1.06,0.73,0.75,0.29,0.49,0.05,0.00
Romania_Moldavia_North,24.87,29.86,15.41,9.35,14.46,1.78,0.89,0.71,1.33,0.59,0.46,0.15,0.13
Romania_Moldavia_South,24.05,26.15,17.12,10.05,16.97,2.00,0.76,0.53,1.08,0.63,0.39,0.13,0.13
Romania_Muntenia,21.91,24.66,17.54,11.35,18.87,2.19,0.72,0.55,1.03,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.10
Romania_Oltenia,23.52,25.05,17.97,10.73,17.82,1.79,0.70,0.79,0.69,0.38,0.36,0.10,0.09
Romania_Transylvania,24.31,25.97,17.43,10.13,16.98,1.84,0.65,0.54,1.04,0.59,0.35,0.07,0.10
Romania_Wallachia,22.35,24.81,17.64,11.14,18.53,2.09,0.75,0.65,0.96,0.52,0.35,0.11,0.09

**Leto** · 07-09-2021, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dušan

If these K13 ancient samples are accurate, then 50% on average:

That's a fucking lot. I thought Bulgarians (and the Gagauz) would be barely 40% Slavic (I'm pretty tired of this never-ending estimation of "Slavic" ancestry).

**Dušan** · 07-09-2021, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

That's a fucking lot. I thought Bulgarians (and the Gagauz) would be barely 40% Slavic (I'm pretty tired of this never-ending estimation of "Slavic" ancestry).

According to these K13 ancient samples, Bulgarians are a bit less proto-Slavic than Romanians, with cca 45% on average.

My people are cca 60% proto-Slavic on average.

**GalenStark** · 07-09-2021, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by aruncaz

As far as I know, it is of Slavic origin but its existence in Sardinia makes me question my knowledge since Sardinians have almost no Slavic ancestry. What is the origin of I2a1 haplogroup?

Originally no. By the time of the late proto-Slavs at least, most definitely yes(speaking of Y3120 here).Alot of people argue for a Celtic origin based on Western derived clades. Issue with this is that the common ancestor Y3120 people have with western clades is no closer than 1400BCE which is far too early.

For all we know, Y3120 drifted East earlier than classical Celts and bottlenecked among Proto-Slavs. Or, the "Pre-Slavic Csltic" branch that is partial Y3120 hasn't been found. Issue with this is no Western Europeans have been found splitting Y3120 to form a closer tmrca.