Origins of I2a1: Is it Slavic?

[Constantin]

Indigenous Balkan (pre Slavic)

Who are these indigenous Balkanic people and why do they speak slavic tongues if their male blood is not of slavic descent? Do you know or should I tell you?

[Varda]

According to these K13 ancient samples, Bulgarians are a bit less proto-Slavic than Romanians, with cca 45% on average.






My people are cca 60% proto-Slavic on average.

Can you put for Macedonians?

[Jana]

It's Pre-Slavic

Central European.

Indigenous Balkan (pre Slavic)

Obviously not, and such wrong information should be put to ground once for all. It's a medieval Slavic marker.

The Kuline individuals are more shifted towards present-day Slavic-speaking populations as compared to individuals in the Central/Northern European cluster, agreeing with the presence of Y-chromosome lineage I2-L621 in Kuline, which is common in present-day Slavic-speaking groups and absent in earlier periods.

(August 2021) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....458211v1.full

[CommonSense]

Can you put for Macedonians?

This is my model:

Paleo_Balkan:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp,33.68,12.02,24.41,7.67,19.60,1.39,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp,30.68,13.00,27.73,10.03,16.07,0.60,0.00,1.05,0.00,0.21,0.00,0.00,0.64
Paleo_Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30.00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Canaanite_,1.63,0.00,14.65,15.10,51.26,17.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81,18.16,27.6,36.59,4.92,0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
Eastern_Mediterranean:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,6.85,0.00,21.95,22.60,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75,0.00,0.00,0.22,0.00,0.71
Eastern_Mediterranean:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,2.63,8.50,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.84,0.55,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1550_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,2.93,0.00,17.45,22.44,37.80,13.78,2.10,0.71,0.00,0.02,0.31,2.45,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.31,0.00,12.60,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25.54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08,0.58,0.53,0.00
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,30.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.89,0.00,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26,8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.53,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63,3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14.97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11.7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.37,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Jutland_VK340,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:DA119_Slovakia_Poprad_1600_R_U106_U4b3_375_AD_2_,53.37,27.59,18.52,0.33,0.19,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:RISE174_Sweden_IA.SG_1431_ybp,48.47,30.87,7.80,5.77,0.58,0.36,2.19,0.00,1.18,1.06,0.56,0.17,1.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,50.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.11,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:Alh10_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1489_ybp,50.82,27.96,8.13,4.15,4.48,1.91,0.67,0.31,0.00,1.29,0.29,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,47.25,26.28,10.75,7.04,5.01,0.00,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.90,1.69,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ15_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp,49.81,25.15,10.68,7.88,0.66,1.04,2.67,1.49,0.62,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,15.48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4.45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,16.18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4.61,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104.SG_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40,8.60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,15.92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4.84,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23.89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5.38,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14.78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.46,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17.53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.89,0.20,0.00,0.00

Target: Croat
Distance: 0.3096% / 0.30956233
61.4 Slavic
19.8 Paleo_Balkan
10.0 Germanic
8.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.2953% / 0.29528408
65.2 Slavic
20.5 Paleo_Balkan
12.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Germanic

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.2770% / 0.27701247
58.1 Slavic
32.9 Paleo_Balkan
9.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Romanian
Distance: 0.1373% / 0.13727092
49.5 Slavic
32.3 Paleo_Balkan
16.4 Eastern_Mediterranean
1.8 Turkic

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.1487% / 0.14873144
46.0 Slavic
31.0 Paleo_Balkan
23.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Pomak_Greece
Distance: 0.9382% / 0.93822173
53.3 Slavic
31.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
15.4 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Pomak_Bulgaria
Distance: 0.7119% / 0.71192413
50.1 Slavic
25.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.2 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.8313% / 0.83126767
44.2 Paleo_Balkan
41.0 Slavic
14.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.1054% / 1.10536391
51.8 Paleo_Balkan
33.0 Slavic
15.2 Eastern_Mediterranean

[Dušan]

Can you put for Macedonians?

This is my model:

Paleo_Balkan:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp,33.68,12.02,24.41,7.67,19.60,1.39,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp,30.68,13.00,27.73,10.03,16.07,0.60,0.00,1.05,0.00,0.21,0.00,0.00,0.64
Paleo_Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30.00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Canaanite_,1.63,0.00,14.65,15.10,51.26,17.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81,18.16,27.6,36.59,4.92,0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
Eastern_Mediterranean:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,6.85,0.00,21.95,22.60,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75,0.00,0.00,0.22,0.00,0.71
Eastern_Mediterranean:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,2.63,8.50,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.84,0.55,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1550_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,2.93,0.00,17.45,22.44,37.80,13.78,2.10,0.71,0.00,0.02,0.31,2.45,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.31,0.00,12.60,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25.54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08,0.58,0.53,0.00
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,30.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.89,0.00,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26,8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.53,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63,3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14.97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11.7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.37,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Jutland_VK340,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:DA119_Slovakia_Poprad_1600_R_U106_U4b3_375_AD_2_,53.37,27.59,18.52,0.33,0.19,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:RISE174_Sweden_IA.SG_1431_ybp,48.47,30.87,7.80,5.77,0.58,0.36,2.19,0.00,1.18,1.06,0.56,0.17,1.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,50.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.11,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:Alh10_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1489_ybp,50.82,27.96,8.13,4.15,4.48,1.91,0.67,0.31,0.00,1.29,0.29,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,47.25,26.28,10.75,7.04,5.01,0.00,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.90,1.69,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ15_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp,49.81,25.15,10.68,7.88,0.66,1.04,2.67,1.49,0.62,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,15.48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4.45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,16.18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4.61,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104.SG_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40,8.60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,15.92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4.84,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23.89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5.38,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14.78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.46,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17.53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.89,0.20,0.00,0.00

Target: Croat
Distance: 0.3096% / 0.30956233
61.4 Slavic
19.8 Paleo_Balkan
10.0 Germanic
8.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.2953% / 0.29528408
65.2 Slavic
20.5 Paleo_Balkan
12.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Germanic

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.2770% / 0.27701247
58.1 Slavic
32.9 Paleo_Balkan
9.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Romanian
Distance: 0.1373% / 0.13727092
49.5 Slavic
32.3 Paleo_Balkan
16.4 Eastern_Mediterranean
1.8 Turkic

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.1487% / 0.14873144
46.0 Slavic
31.0 Paleo_Balkan
23.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Pomak_Greece
Distance: 0.9382% / 0.93822173
53.3 Slavic
31.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
15.4 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Pomak_Bulgaria
Distance: 0.7119% / 0.71192413
50.1 Slavic
25.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.2 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.8313% / 0.83126767
44.2 Paleo_Balkan
41.0 Slavic
14.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.1054% / 1.10536391
51.8 Paleo_Balkan
33.0 Slavic
15.2 Eastern_Mediterranean

This is probably better calculator, because paleo-Balkan samples are different than East Med that came during Roman Empire colonisation.

[CommonSense]

This is probably better calculator, because paleo-Balkan samples are different than East Med that came during Roman Empire colonisation.

For sure. Just look at the example of Bulgarians and Macedonians. Using the former cacluator the only difference between the two that you would notice is that Bulgarians have somewhat more Slavic admixture. However, if you break down the Paleo-Balkan and Roman into two, we can see that Bulgarians also have more "Roman", East Med admix and less Iron Age Balkans. This is true in particular for Pomaks who could basically be modelled as East Slav + Cretean

[Catalyn]

In order to find out, we need to understand what Slavic means, so let's start with the beginning:
Historically, man broke away from the monkey in Africa a long time ago. So that is the origin of the Slavic language, because that is where man began to speak.
Then man migrated all over the globe where there were the necessary conditions for survival.
Coexistence at great distances between groups of people has made people's languages ​​differ significantly. Thus, the more distant 2 groups of people were, the more likely there is that their language (but also the phenotype / genotype) will be more distant.
But there have always been migrations. Migrations occurred for infinite reasons, and mainly all had a common goal: a better life. But the way these migrations took place was different: wars, invasions, rapes, religions, the nomadic spirit, and the simple desire to explore the world (because man was not created to stand still).
All this made the original human populations in Africa, which arrived on new continents and formed a certain isolated culture, to mix with other isolated cultures.
But don't forget, in the beginning there was only one culture and one language, in Africa, where man appeared.
But look, the cultures mixed together with the phenotypes and genotypes.
This flow of mixing cultures has been unceasing since the advent of man.
The results of the mixes were always a unique culture, a unique genotype, a unique phenotype, a unique language, a unique culture.
If we talk about the Slavic language, we know that the Proto-Slavic language was the result of a unique culture, a unique mix and a unique destiny.
We cannot speak of the Slavic language as originating in the area of ​​Belarus (and neighboring countries), until we understand that there was only a uniqueness, consisting of mixtures of populations and older from all continents of the world and a constant flow of migration.
Well, this is how the languages ​​from which today are spoken the languages ​​classified as Slavic (Eastern, Western and Southern) were formed.
We cannot say that I2 is not Slavic, because the Balkans and the area of ​​formation of the original Slavic language were not very far away.
Therefore, Slavic languages ​​and Balkan languages ​​have always been slightly similar, Balkan components played an important role in the formation of the first unique Slavic culture. And Nordic components have always played an important role in forming the first unique culture of Balkan languages.
But people like to create borders and differences, so people have created a border and a difference between south and north.
The Slavic languages ​​were in the north and the Balkan languages ​​in the south.
Also, the genetics (along with the phenotype) of the Slavs was represented by a Nordic image, while the Balkan languages ​​were related to the south.
Differences between north and south became bigger while these 2 areas created a bigger difference, they put stable borders, they created different and unique cultures.
Therefore, the Balkans were not Slavs, and the Slavs were no longer Balkans (Although they were always the same).
A few more years pass, and the Slavs migrate in this continuous flow to the south, that is, to the Balkans.
A few more years pass, and the 100% Slavic language no longer exists, because man does not stand still, the language evolves, catches new influences, and even without influences people simply change their words (finding a better, more beautiful one, an accent more interesting, more pleasant, more melodious, etc.).
Because there is no longer 100% Slavic, there is only 100% modern Slavic, both the Eastern, Western and Southern Slavs represent 100% modern Slavic. The conclusion is clear: I2 is Slavic too, and I2 has always been Slavic because it played an important role in the formation of the first Slavic language in the north due to the continuous flow, and there would be no Slavic language without influence from Balkans at a very short distance.
Also:
The oldest history is not written. We know that the Slavs formed around Belarus (and neighboring countries), but we cannot say that there was only one other population that was Slavicized by people from the Balkans who spoke a Slavic language, they migrated to Belarus ( and neighboring countries), Slavized, and in the meantime in the Balkans the Slavic language changed to a Balkan language, and then returned to its roots. (Slavic)
In fact, we humans know nothing, we just believe and research. So the chances like what I wrote above are not 0%.
So, what conclusion did you come to? '' Origins of I2a1: Is it Slavic? ''.
Each person will have a different conclusion, a different perspective, a different level of intelligence, a different education, different historical knowledge, in addition manipulation plays an important role. In general, the original Slavs are the ones who want the manipulators. The origin of the Slavs can be in Africa (scientific) or in Babylon (religious), there are 736 variants, 834 religions and 928 scientific variants. Choose one to believe.

[Aspirin]

This is my model:

For Moldavians works very bad.

[Ion Basescul]

In order to find out,

Holy mother of essays

[CommonSense]

For Moldavians works very bad.

It doesn't seem particularly off to me:

Target: Moldova_Ukrainian
Distance: 0.1413% / 0.14128064
88.2 Slavic
5.1 Eastern_Mediterranean
4.1 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Germanic
0.7 Turkic

Target: Moldova_South_Gagauzia
Distance: 0.2944% / 0.29444605
45.4 Slavic
30.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.0 Paleo_Balkan
0.3 Turkic

Target: Moldova_South
Distance: 0.1960% / 0.19595261
53.1 Slavic
28.0 Paleo_Balkan
16.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Turkic

Target: Moldova_North
Distance: 0.4337% / 0.43366467
67.8 Slavic
15.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
12.8 Paleo_Balkan
2.1 Germanic
1.4 Turkic

Target: Moldova_Centre
Distance: 0.1433% / 0.14329267
62.6 Slavic
19.6 Paleo_Balkan
13.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.7 Turkic
1.2 Germanic

Target: Moldova_average
Distance: 0.0957% / 0.09569908
62.9 Slavic
20.3 Paleo_Balkan
13.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.1 Turkic
0.9 Germanic