Origins of I2a1: Is it Slavic?

**Dick** · 09-06-2021, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by CommonSense

There are several samples that fall into the Central-North Euro cluster. I'm not sure if they're really all 'Goths', but I guess they would be a good proxy for what historians and other researchers call 'Eastern Germanic'. And two of the samples are clearly Central-East Euro Sarmatians:

Well they all came from the Baltic areas so I Don’t see why they would have a lot of west med or whatever DNA component to shift them westward

**Dick** · 09-06-2021, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Sarmatians were already available from Moldova. Also Cimmerians

Missed that. Can you post results? Who are they closest to?

**~~Ion Basescul~~** · 09-06-2021, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dick

Missed that. Can you post results? Who are they closest to?

I got them for G25, not sure if anyone's converted them to K13.

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11926
0.09874680 Komi
0.09900817 Udmurt_o2
0.10180092 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.10270346 Tajik_Rushan
0.10487800 Udmurt_o1
0.10765398 Mordovian
0.10779938 Tatar_Mishar
0.10811445 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10824379 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.11017441 Tatar_Kazan
0.11080558 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.11186235 Russian_Kostroma
0.11209794 Karelian
0.11215510 Besermyan
0.11298225 Finnish_East
0.11333753 Udmurt_o3
0.11386746 Vepsian
0.11396823 Ingrian
0.11416021 Russian_Pinega
0.11549309 Finnish
0.11600709 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.11946516 Saami_Kola
0.11952869 Tajik_Badakshan
0.12001801 Cossack_Kuban
0.12154596 Darginian

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11925
0.07381910 Tatar_Mishar
0.07501879 Tajik_Rushan
0.08193214 Tatar_Kazan
0.08220266 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08227619 Udmurt_o2
0.08282787 Tajik_Shugnan
0.08545080 Komi
0.09005201 Mordovian
0.09246243 Udmurt_o3
0.09271678 Tajik_Badakshan
0.09527981 Kaitag
0.09528535 Darginian
0.09586761 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09597153 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.09682494 Russian_Kostroma
0.09693873 Turkish_Deliorman
0.09701896 Udmurt_o1
0.09704537 Tajik
0.09746998 Avar
0.09756670 Besermyan
0.09908756 Lak
0.09995922 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.10018274 Tabasaran
0.10162502 Kubachinian
0.10168402 Russian_Pinezhsky

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim359
0.04780383 Bashkir
0.06484844 Tatar_Siberian
0.08476610 Uzbek
0.09242711 Nogai
0.09688054 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.10210004 Tatar_Lipka
0.10241291 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.10257526 Udmurt
0.10410710 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.10422802 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.10715829 Uygur
0.10851948 Turkmen
0.11039895 Besermyan
0.11152477 Hazara
0.11428243 Karakalpak
0.11706699 Yukagir_Forest
0.12181027 Saami
0.12395189 Tubalar
0.12437109 Udmurt_o1
0.12759444 Tatar_Kazan
0.13025807 Tlingit
0.13067104 Chuvash
0.13089759 Udmurt_o3
0.13638413 Mari
0.13818899 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim358
0.06760858 Tajik
0.07299889 Tatar_Kazan
0.07304098 Tatar_Lipka
0.07633474 Tajik_Rushan
0.07762774 Tajik_Shugnan
0.07853827 Sarikoli_China
0.08004930 Tajik_Badakshan
0.08054641 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan
0.08254634 Besermyan
0.08307034 Turkmen
0.08615963 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.08896649 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.09032608 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.09192645 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09259327 Udmurt_o1
0.09284283 Tatar_Mishar
0.09562588 Udmurt
0.10014868 Udmurt_o2
0.10177851 Udmurt_o3
0.10188217 Komi
0.10629714 Turkish_Northwest
0.10730308 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11082211 Turkish_South
0.11154967 Turkish_Southwest
0.11214659 Chuvash

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim357
0.07748461 Tatar_Mishar
0.08045418 Udmurt_o2
0.08074032 Komi
0.08259586 Tatar_Kazan
0.08632057 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.08798918 Mordovian
0.08994029 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09097002 Russian_Kostroma
0.09126662 Udmurt_o1
0.09283926 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.09298924 Finnish_East
0.09301847 Finnish
0.09420479 Ingrian
0.09471076 Karelian
0.09542956 Udmurt_o3
0.09549907 Besermyan
0.09581792 Vepsian
0.09655473 Russian_Pinega
0.09671225 Tajik_Rushan
0.09881065 Cossack_Kuban
0.10269947 Norwegian
0.10323492 Russian_Ryazan
0.10333038 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10350327 Russian_Tver
0.10414296 Saami_Kola

**CommonSense** · 09-06-2021, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dick

Well they all came from the Baltic areas so I Don’t see why they would have a lot of west med or whatever DNA component to shift them westward

Yeah, I found that odd myself. They probably mixed with the Celts in Central Europe.

**vbnetkhio** · 09-06-2021, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

I got them for G25, not sure if anyone's converted them to K13.

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11926
0.09874680 Komi
0.09900817 Udmurt_o2
0.10180092 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.10270346 Tajik_Rushan
0.10487800 Udmurt_o1
0.10765398 Mordovian
0.10779938 Tatar_Mishar
0.10811445 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10824379 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.11017441 Tatar_Kazan
0.11080558 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.11186235 Russian_Kostroma
0.11209794 Karelian
0.11215510 Besermyan
0.11298225 Finnish_East
0.11333753 Udmurt_o3
0.11386746 Vepsian
0.11396823 Ingrian
0.11416021 Russian_Pinega
0.11549309 Finnish
0.11600709 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.11946516 Saami_Kola
0.11952869 Tajik_Badakshan
0.12001801 Cossack_Kuban
0.12154596 Darginian

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11925
0.07381910 Tatar_Mishar
0.07501879 Tajik_Rushan
0.08193214 Tatar_Kazan
0.08220266 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08227619 Udmurt_o2
0.08282787 Tajik_Shugnan
0.08545080 Komi
0.09005201 Mordovian
0.09246243 Udmurt_o3
0.09271678 Tajik_Badakshan
0.09527981 Kaitag
0.09528535 Darginian
0.09586761 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09597153 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.09682494 Russian_Kostroma
0.09693873 Turkish_Deliorman
0.09701896 Udmurt_o1
0.09704537 Tajik
0.09746998 Avar
0.09756670 Besermyan
0.09908756 Lak
0.09995922 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.10018274 Tabasaran
0.10162502 Kubachinian
0.10168402 Russian_Pinezhsky

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim359
0.04780383 Bashkir
0.06484844 Tatar_Siberian
0.08476610 Uzbek
0.09242711 Nogai
0.09688054 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.10210004 Tatar_Lipka
0.10241291 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.10257526 Udmurt
0.10410710 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.10422802 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.10715829 Uygur
0.10851948 Turkmen
0.11039895 Besermyan
0.11152477 Hazara
0.11428243 Karakalpak
0.11706699 Yukagir_Forest
0.12181027 Saami
0.12395189 Tubalar
0.12437109 Udmurt_o1
0.12759444 Tatar_Kazan
0.13025807 Tlingit
0.13067104 Chuvash
0.13089759 Udmurt_o3
0.13638413 Mari
0.13818899 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim358
0.06760858 Tajik
0.07299889 Tatar_Kazan
0.07304098 Tatar_Lipka
0.07633474 Tajik_Rushan
0.07762774 Tajik_Shugnan
0.07853827 Sarikoli_China
0.08004930 Tajik_Badakshan
0.08054641 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan
0.08254634 Besermyan
0.08307034 Turkmen
0.08615963 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.08896649 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.09032608 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.09192645 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09259327 Udmurt_o1
0.09284283 Tatar_Mishar
0.09562588 Udmurt
0.10014868 Udmurt_o2
0.10177851 Udmurt_o3
0.10188217 Komi
0.10629714 Turkish_Northwest
0.10730308 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11082211 Turkish_South
0.11154967 Turkish_Southwest
0.11214659 Chuvash

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim357
0.07748461 Tatar_Mishar
0.08045418 Udmurt_o2
0.08074032 Komi
0.08259586 Tatar_Kazan
0.08632057 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.08798918 Mordovian
0.08994029 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09097002 Russian_Kostroma
0.09126662 Udmurt_o1
0.09283926 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.09298924 Finnish_East
0.09301847 Finnish
0.09420479 Ingrian
0.09471076 Karelian
0.09542956 Udmurt_o3
0.09549907 Besermyan
0.09581792 Vepsian
0.09655473 Russian_Pinega
0.09671225 Tajik_Rushan
0.09881065 Cossack_Kuban
0.10269947 Norwegian
0.10323492 Russian_Ryazan
0.10333038 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10350327 Russian_Tver
0.10414296 Saami_Kola

Did those MDA Sarmatians get added recently? This is my first time seeing them.

**Dick** · 09-06-2021, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

I got them for G25, not sure if anyone's converted them to K13.

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11926
0.09874680 Komi
0.09900817 Udmurt_o2
0.10180092 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.10270346 Tajik_Rushan
0.10487800 Udmurt_o1
0.10765398 Mordovian
0.10779938 Tatar_Mishar
0.10811445 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10824379 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.11017441 Tatar_Kazan
0.11080558 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.11186235 Russian_Kostroma
0.11209794 Karelian
0.11215510 Besermyan
0.11298225 Finnish_East
0.11333753 Udmurt_o3
0.11386746 Vepsian
0.11396823 Ingrian
0.11416021 Russian_Pinega
0.11549309 Finnish
0.11600709 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.11946516 Saami_Kola
0.11952869 Tajik_Badakshan
0.12001801 Cossack_Kuban
0.12154596 Darginian

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11925
0.07381910 Tatar_Mishar
0.07501879 Tajik_Rushan
0.08193214 Tatar_Kazan
0.08220266 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08227619 Udmurt_o2
0.08282787 Tajik_Shugnan
0.08545080 Komi
0.09005201 Mordovian
0.09246243 Udmurt_o3
0.09271678 Tajik_Badakshan
0.09527981 Kaitag
0.09528535 Darginian
0.09586761 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09597153 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.09682494 Russian_Kostroma
0.09693873 Turkish_Deliorman
0.09701896 Udmurt_o1
0.09704537 Tajik
0.09746998 Avar
0.09756670 Besermyan
0.09908756 Lak
0.09995922 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.10018274 Tabasaran
0.10162502 Kubachinian
0.10168402 Russian_Pinezhsky

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim359
0.04780383 Bashkir
0.06484844 Tatar_Siberian
0.08476610 Uzbek
0.09242711 Nogai
0.09688054 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.10210004 Tatar_Lipka
0.10241291 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.10257526 Udmurt
0.10410710 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.10422802 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.10715829 Uygur
0.10851948 Turkmen
0.11039895 Besermyan
0.11152477 Hazara
0.11428243 Karakalpak
0.11706699 Yukagir_Forest
0.12181027 Saami
0.12395189 Tubalar
0.12437109 Udmurt_o1
0.12759444 Tatar_Kazan
0.13025807 Tlingit
0.13067104 Chuvash
0.13089759 Udmurt_o3
0.13638413 Mari
0.13818899 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim358
0.06760858 Tajik
0.07299889 Tatar_Kazan
0.07304098 Tatar_Lipka
0.07633474 Tajik_Rushan
0.07762774 Tajik_Shugnan
0.07853827 Sarikoli_China
0.08004930 Tajik_Badakshan
0.08054641 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan
0.08254634 Besermyan
0.08307034 Turkmen
0.08615963 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.08896649 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.09032608 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.09192645 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09259327 Udmurt_o1
0.09284283 Tatar_Mishar
0.09562588 Udmurt
0.10014868 Udmurt_o2
0.10177851 Udmurt_o3
0.10188217 Komi
0.10629714 Turkish_Northwest
0.10730308 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11082211 Turkish_South
0.11154967 Turkish_Southwest
0.11214659 Chuvash

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim357
0.07748461 Tatar_Mishar
0.08045418 Udmurt_o2
0.08074032 Komi
0.08259586 Tatar_Kazan
0.08632057 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.08798918 Mordovian
0.08994029 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09097002 Russian_Kostroma
0.09126662 Udmurt_o1
0.09283926 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.09298924 Finnish_East
0.09301847 Finnish
0.09420479 Ingrian
0.09471076 Karelian
0.09542956 Udmurt_o3
0.09549907 Besermyan
0.09581792 Vepsian
0.09655473 Russian_Pinega
0.09671225 Tajik_Rushan
0.09881065 Cossack_Kuban
0.10269947 Norwegian
0.10323492 Russian_Ryazan
0.10333038 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10350327 Russian_Tver
0.10414296 Saami_Kola

Komitasavalta. Black Finns!

**~~Ion Basescul~~** · 09-06-2021, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

Did those MDA Sarmatians get added recently? This is my first time seeing them.

No, they were in Davidski's spreadsheet for a while/
i11925 is from Cimislia district, while i11926 is from Taraclia (Ciumai).

I11925 Cimișlia, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 8, Grave 7 2,050-1,850
I11926 Ciumai, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 1, Grave 10 4,000-1,000

I think they are from here.

**vbnetkhio** · 09-06-2021, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

No, they were in Davidski's spreadsheet for a while/
i11925 is from Cimislia district, while i11926 is from Taraclia (Ciumai).

I11925 Cimișlia, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 8, Grave 7 2,050-1,850
I11926 Ciumai, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 1, Grave 10 4,000-1,000

I think they are from here.

Could you put them on a vahaduo PCA with other Sarmatians and Scythians?

**~~Ion Basescul~~** · 09-06-2021, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

Could you put them on a vahaduo PCA with other Sarmatians and Scythians?

**vbnetkhio** · 09-06-2021, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

That's unusual, one is a typical Sarmatian and the other is in the middle of nowhere.

From these samples it seems that Scythians were eventually completely replaced by Sarmatians.