Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

[Dušan]

here:

VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.075424,0.072029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538,0.00634,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479

there is k13 too, it was posted long ago by Lukasz.

Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.5 3,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62


Distance to: Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212
2.66169119 Polish_Kuyavia
3.71463323 Russian_Smolensk
4.39064915 Belarusian_Minsk
4.65089239 Polish
4.74334270 Belorussian
4.94245890 Polish_Mazovia
5.01271384 Polish_Mazovia
5.01906366 Polish_Kujawy
5.69627071 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
5.72924079 Polish_Kielce
5.72924079 Polish_Kielce
5.79243472 Russian_average
5.89872020 Russian_Pskov
6.12176445 Lithuanian
6.15299927 Polish_Staropolska
6.16771433 Polish_WarmiaMasuria
6.16771433 Polish_Masuria
6.39271460 Estonian
6.55720977 Russian_Ryazan
6.62269583 Polish_Podlaskie
6.66403782 Polish_Podlaskie
6.80412375 Russian_Southwest
6.88226707 Polish_GreaterPoland
6.90468681 Ukrainian
6.97984957 Polish_Greater_Poland

[rothaer]

Problem is the samples like Lutsk and Chernigov. They are both from Polesye, which is often considered as the proto-Slavic homeland. To get Lutsk/Chernigov from Pohansko_o2, something super southern from the Balkans is needed. That is possible of course, but many modern Ukrainians, South Russians and Poles are similar to them, and there is no explanation how all these areas received significant Balkan admixture.

One of the Iron Age Ukrainian Scythians is also similar to Lutsk/Chernigov, indiciating that this is something which existed in Polesye for a long time. There are rumors that a Bronze age Ukrainian similar to them will also be published.

So this type of autosomal is IMO something which existed in the proto-Slavic homeland for a long time, and later was spread by Slavs in their expansion.

Chernigov I consider outside of the assumingly Slavic urheimat, but Lutsk is admittedly within. This sample is not very old, if I see it correctly. It's marked with MA for Middle Ages and if I recall that study correctly, they used that for depicting a time period after Viking Age (VA) and they even depicted a lot of samples VA that were completely uncertain wheter they were from wiking age or not. F. i. their Sigtuna samples. In the paper it's written that they were from 10th to 12th century and they just labelled them VA. (Viking age is according to common sense from 793-1066.) So I don't know from when the Lutsk sample, labelled MA is from, maybe from 1300 or 1400? However, this is so many centuries after proto Slavs that I do not yet se it as the problem. There can well have come some more southern people in the meantime. Note that Lutsk ist not very much southern shifted compared to what I assume proto Slav.

If there would be older such samples found, I'd agree that it would be a problem for my assumption. As my opinion is nothing what I wish, but just something that I think explains best what I know till today, I'll gladly adept to new findings if there appear some.

Iron Age Scytians would I not see as a problem as they can be tied to that ethnicity and we know what great area, also much more southern, they settled in. So that genetic can be expected without assuming that the Genetic of proto Slavs will have been like that. It's not impossible though.

Do you know the dating of the Lutsk sample and do you know from where that rumored bronze age "Ukrainian" is from?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Do you know the dating of the Lutsk sample?

[Leto]

Chernigov I consider outside of the assumingly Slavic urheimat, but Lutsk is admittedly within.

It is in what is now Northern Ukraine, just east of Kiev, and one of the oldest Kievan Russian cities.

[rothaer]

So 1250, thank you!

[rothaer]

It is in what is now Northern Ukraine, just east of Kiev, and one of the oldest Kievan Russian cities.

Thank you, I know. I had looked it up. I do consider the Slavic urheimat below the NE slopes of the Carpathians, maybe not more than 300 km in lengh (estimate in line with the place name research of Udolph

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/elemen..._ONOMAST_60_15 )

and then likely reaching somewhat northeastwards. I didn't want to be too picky with Lutsk, but Chernigov NE of Kiew is definitely far outside of this area.

[Leto]

Thank you, I know. I had looked it up. I do consider the Slavic urheimat below the NE slopes of the Carpathians, maybe not more than 300 km in lengh (estimate in line with the place name research of Udolph

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/elemen..._ONOMAST_60_15 )

and then likely reaching somewhat northeastwards. I didn't want to be too picky with Lutsk, but Chernigov NE of Kiew is definitely far outside of this area.

Nah, that's autism to me. We can say between the Vistula and the Dnieper (Warsaw - Kiev) or something like that.

[vbnetkhio]

Chernigov I consider outside of the assumingly Slavic urheimat, but Lutsk is admittedly within. This sample is not very old, if I see it correctly. It's marked with MA for Middle Ages and if I recall that study correctly, they used that for depicting a time period after Viking Age (VA) and they even depicted a lot of samples VA that were completely uncertain wheter they were from wiking age or not. F. i. their Sigtuna samples. In the paper it's written that they were from 10th to 12th century and they just labelled them VA. (Viking age is according to common sense from 793-1066.) So I don't know from when the Lutsk sample, labelled MA is from, maybe from 1300 or 1400? However, this is so many centuries after proto Slavs that I do not yet se it as the problem. There can well have come some more southern people in the meantime. Note that Lutsk ist not very much southern shifted compared to what I assume proto Slav.

If there would be older such samples found, I'd agree that it would be a problem for my assumption. As my opinion is nothing what I wish, but just something that I think explains best what I know till today, I'll gladly adept to new findings if there appear some.

Iron Age Scytians would I not see as a problem as they can be tied to that ethnicity and we know what great area, also much more southern, they settled in. So that genetic can be expected without assuming that the Genetic of proto Slavs will have been like that. It's not impossible though.

Do you know the dating of the Lutsk sample and do you know from where that rumored bronze age "Ukrainian" is from?

the Lutsk and Chernigov samples are of these two noblemen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleb_Svyatoslavich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_of_Kiev

Gleb is 1/4 Scandinavian and Ingvar is 1/2 Czech, and yet they plot the way they do. Maybe the commoners from this area were even more Balto-Slavic drifted at this time. Modern Ukrainians from this area all look more Germanic or Baltic shifted than them.

The Bronze age Ukrainian will be from Verteba cave, western Ukraine.

The Scythian is this one from the Cherkassy area:

Scythian_UKR:MJ14,0.135449,0.120848,0.046386,0.065569,0.035699,0.01004,0.012221,0.024922,-0.005113,-0.024602,-0.004384,-0.005245,0.025124,0.007707,-0.017644,-0.002784,0.021513,0.004687,0.010559,0.015257,0.000998,0.00507,0.013434,0.001205,-0.008742

[Varda]

Probably Torbeši https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims

Torbeši are small primarily religious group. If we don't count them, definitely Macedonians are the least Slavic genetically of all Slavic speakers.

[Varda]

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