Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

[KirillMazur]

And I think Ukrainians and south Russians have something more southern than that (obviously they don't plot between Belarus and Litwa), maybe of Iranic-Caucasus sort (not sure).
Yes wild fields were re-settled from north and west but still, from what I saw, previous occupants are never truly erased from DNA, some people always remain and intermix.

Scyths and Sarmats were huge tribes in Ukraine area, I simply don't buy expanding Slavs absorbed none of such admixture but just steppe Turks did.
So now I am not talking about Russo-Turkish wars but centuries before that.

Iranic nomads were large mass of people who couldn't vanish just like that!
And I think that sort of light substratum may explain why Ukrainians and southern Russians don't plot like early Slavic samples from Germany, Moravia and Hungary.

True 100%. Since I am outside genetics, I have no numbers, but my eyes and brain for 20 years of life in the Crimea and 2 years in the Odessa region confirm this. Here is a different substrate compared to the Moscow region, not to mention the more northern regions. But there are also many "northern" settlers.
Whatever one may say, multi-million people do not disappear without a trace.

[Leto]

True 100%. Since I am outside genetics, I have no numbers, but my eyes and brain for 20 years of life in the Crimea and 2 years in the Odessa region confirm this. Here is a different substrate compared to the Moscow region, not to mention the more northern regions. But there are also many "northern" settlers.
Whatever one may say, multi-million people do not disappear without a trace.

Those groups weren't "multi-million" though. It's not like a group of Slavs would have magically assimilated hordes of non-Slavs.
Southern Russians and Ukrainians still do not score a lot of West Asian (not more than Poles or Slovaks for example) which means the supposed Iranic thing cannot have been massive.

If you ever get to order a DNA test, my advice is not to go for Genotek which is the only officially allowed DNA testing company in Russia. Their raw data is shit (V5 chip). Choose FTDNA instead, it's not banned yet.

[Varda]

Even native Balkanites in Serbia proper were between Croatian and Bulgarian IA, and not entirely Thracian like and they were actual Moesians which is a subset of Thracians.
Your models show Serbs are not native in western Balkans at all, and than you should stop claiming that.

Truth is though that most western Serbs are native to east Herzegovina and surrounding regions however. It's just that your modeling is very illogical and unrealistic.

True.
For example I1-FGC22045 and N-FGC28435 are strong in Krajina Serbs and both are founded in skeletons from Cernica near Gacko (East Herzegovina) from the late middle age https://hercegbosna.org/forum/post1638232.html#p1638232
Krajina Serbs have tons of matches in East/Old Herzegovina among other haplos as well, and they are linguistically connected with East Herzegovina. There is no linguistic connection between Krajina Serbs and old shtokavian ijekavian ("Montenegrin"), old shtokavian ekavian of central Serbia, Torlakian etc.

[Dušan]

True.
For example I1-FGC22045 and N-FGC28435 are strong in Krajina Serbs and both are founded in skeletons from Cernica near Gacko (East Herzegovina) from the late middle age https://hercegbosna.org/forum/post1638232.html#p1638232
Krajina Serbs have tons of matches in East/Old Herzegovina among other haplos as well, and they are linguistically connected with East Herzegovina. There is no linguistic connection between Krajina Serbs and old shtokavian ijekavian ("Montenegrin"), old shtokavian ekavian of central Serbia, Torlakian etc.

Yes.
The fact is that "Illyrians" were not homogenous people, those in northwestern part are different, while those of southeast Illyricum is closer to "Thracians".
In other words, autosomal genetics of pre-Slavic component of Serbs and Croats are different.
That is fact proven by autosomal genetics.

[Jana]

Yes.
The fact is that "Illyrians" were not homogenous people, those in northwestern part are different, while those of southeast Illyricum is closer to "Thracians".

Baseless claim without any proof. Croatian IA sample is from southern area. And IA Apulian is nothing like Thracian as well. Apulia is much more southern than majority of west Balkans.

In other words, autosomal genetics of pre-Slavic component of Serbs and Croats are different.
That is fact proven by autosomal genetics.

Not really. Depends on the region.

[Dušan]

Baseless claim without any proof. Croatian IA sample is from southern area. And IA Apulian is nothing like Thracian as well. Apulia is much more southern than majority of west Balkans.

What about Apulia?
Are you talking about influence of Roman colonisation?
Yes, and there is different situation, it was stronger in areas settled with Serbs, than areas with Croats, in area of nortern Croats, no occured at all.

Not really. Depends on the region.

Only southern Croats are a bit closer, the rest are not at all.
Varda would say they are catholicized Serbs.
Well by genetics it could be.

[Jana]

What about Apulia?
Are you talking about influence of Roman colonisation?
Yes, and there is different situation, it was stronger in areas settled with Serbs, than areas with Croats, in area of nortern Croats, no occured at all.

Apulia sample is from Illyrian tribe that came to Apulia from Dalmatia.
Northern Croatia had Celts, does not mean there were no Romans there (there were even in Hungary). There is also later Hungarian-German influence.

Only southern Croats are a bit closer, the rest are not at all.

Slavonian Croats pre-Slavic is very southern, they just have high Baltic. Outside of Kajkavian area most Illyrian-shifted pre-Slavic seems to be on the Islands.

Varda would say they are catholicized Serbs.
Well by genetics it could be.

Keep dreaming. Here is my 100% north Čakavian friend and he plots like Slavonian and Bosnian Croats (bad raw tho)

1.89230633 24.40% Ashkenazi + 75.60% South_Polish
1.91501174 65.60% Southwest_Russian + 34.40% Tuscan
2.05197081 41.00% Central_Greek + 59.00% Estonian
2.06836817 40.80% Belorussian + 59.20% Romanian
2.11068372 63.40% Belorussian + 36.60% Italian_Abruzzo
2.14019503 62.20% Estonian + 37.80% South_Italian
2.19374833 64.80% Serbian + 35.20% Southwest_Russian
2.20844427 60.40% Bulgarian + 39.60% Estonian
2.20928916 20.60% Italian_Jewish + 79.40% South_Polish
2.24241227 52.00% Estonian + 48.00% Greek_Thessaly
2.29117001 60.00% Bulgarian + 40.00% Finnish
2.36317668 31.00% Belorussian + 69.00% Serbian
2.37149409 80.60% South_Polish + 19.40% Tunisian_Jewish
2.38392837 40.20% East_Sicilian + 59.80% Estonian
2.39902963 20.60% Algerian_Jewish + 79.40% South_Polish
2.41382230 64.00% Estonian_Polish + 36.00% Italian_Abruzzo
2.41477149 20.60% Sephardic_Jewish + 79.40% South_Polish
2.41830483 64.60% Belorussian + 35.40% West_Sicilian
2.45086013 31.40% Estonian_Polish + 68.60% Serbian
2.56697423 41.20% Estonian_Polish + 58.80% Romanian
2.56813092 35.40% Estonian + 64.60% Romanian
2.63051570 19.20% Libyan_Jewish + 80.80% South_Polish
2.66311259 67.40% Belorussian + 32.60% South_Italian
2.69938095 25.60% Lithuanian + 74.40% Serbian
2.74221854 45.00% Belorussian + 55.00% Bulgarian

My other Čakavian Croat friend plots like north-western Croats.

It's not back and white.

[Jana]

Neither all Serbs score tha same, ofc. This Dalmatian Serb pre-Slavic part is more northern than Dušan's.

Distance to: Nausevar(Serb)

2.76075908 11.00% Sardinian + 89.00% Serbian
3.11056430 60.40% Moldavian + 39.60% North_Italian
3.36782865 58.80% Croatian + 41.20% Tuscan
3.43118799 52.40% Tuscan + 47.60% Ukrainian_Lviv
3.56702628 63.80% Moldavian + 36.20% Tuscan
3.64875643 54.20% Tuscan + 45.80% Ukrainian
4.09252394 79.60% Moldavian + 20.40% Sardinian
4.13079957 39.80% Russian_Smolensk + 60.20% Tuscan
4.21926988 64.60% Croatian + 35.40% West_Sicilian
4.22393558 55.60% Croatian + 44.40% North_Italian
4.29585245 35.00% Lithuanian + 65.00% Tuscan
4.34773798 42.20% Polish + 57.80% Tuscan
4.36481097 39.40% Estonian_Polish + 60.60% Tuscan
4.39390138 33.40% Erzya + 66.60% North_Italian
4.49906036 59.20% Tuscan + 40.80% Ukrainian_Belgorod
4.57083715 41.20% Southwest_Russian + 58.80% Tuscan
4.59185750 62.40% North_Italian + 37.60% Ukrainian_Belgorod
4.62386591 17.80% North_Italian + 82.20% Serbian
4.66633945 53.40% Ukrainian_Lviv + 46.60% West_Sicilian
4.73525856 88.00% Serbian + 12.00% Southwest_French
4.75427856 87.80% Serbian + 12.20% Spanish_Andalucia
4.76225177 62.20% North_Italian + 37.80% Southwest_Russian
4.76863779 37.80% Kargopol_Russian + 62.20% Tuscan
4.77508605 51.60% Ukrainian + 48.40% West_Sicilian
4.78417356 46.40% South_Polish + 53.60% Tuscan

[Ajeje Brazorf]

There is a possibility that actually the Balkans before the arrival of the Slavs were more west-shifted than modern-day southern Italians, this could also be why Albanians have virtually the same EEF amount as southern Italians despite also having received Slavic input. And there is also the possibility that proto-Slavs had already mixed before reaching the Balkans, and would therefore look more something like Poles with 42 or 43% Baltic rather than Belarusians.

Spoiler!

Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.5486% / 0.54858688 | R3P
62.9	Polish_Mazovia
23.8	Greek_Chios
13.3	Italian_Lombardy

Target: Bosniak_Bosnia
Distance: 0.5322% / 0.53224037 | R2P
76.6	Polish_Silesia
23.4	Greek_North_Aegean

Target: Bosniak_Sandzak
Distance: 1.1310% / 1.13095049 | R3P
48.0	Italian_Apulia
47.0	Polish_Silesia
5.0	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Croat
Distance: 0.8175% / 0.81749495 | R2P
70.0	Polish_Silesia
30.0	Italian_Marche

Target: Croat_East
Distance: 0.8419% / 0.84185435 | R2P
75.0	Polish_Lesser_Poland
25.0	Greek_North_Aegean

Target: Croat_North
Distance: 0.7262% / 0.72617436 | R2P
74.2	Polish_Lesser_Poland
25.8	Italian_Umbria

Target: Croat_South
Distance: 0.8594% / 0.85937287 | R2P
61.7	Ukrainian
38.3	Italian_Lazio

Target: Croat_West
Distance: 0.5674% / 0.56736294 | R3P
56.5	Polish_Staropolska
34.9	Italian_Veneto
8.6	Greek_Cappadocian

Target: Macedonian-Central
Distance: 1.2189% / 1.21892447 | R3P
60.3	Italian_Molise
32.9	Polish_Lower_Silesia
6.8	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Macedonian-East
Distance: 1.0640% / 1.06402907 | R3P
45.9	Greek_Chios
31.3	Southwest_French
22.8	Latvian

Target: Macedonian-North
Distance: 1.5340% / 1.53401990 | R3P
39.7	Greek_Chios
31.4	Belarusian_Minsk
28.9	Italian_Lombardy

Target: Macedonian-South
Distance: 1.3456% / 1.34563407 | R3P
66.3	Italian_Apulia
27.9	Belarusian_Minsk
5.8	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 0.7249% / 0.72493235 | R3P
53.7	Polish_Lesser_Poland
38.2	Greek_North_Aegean
8.1	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.9277% / 0.92766754 | R3P
56.4	Polish_Mazovia
38.7	Italian_Apulia
4.9	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Bosnia
Distance: 0.9319% / 0.93185455 | R3P
66.8	Polish_Silesia
28.5	Greek_North_Aegean
4.7	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Croatia
Distance: 0.7934% / 0.79338749 | R3P
50.5	Belarusian_Minsk
32.6	Italian_Lombardy
16.9	Greek_Cappadocian

Target: Serb_Herzegovina
Distance: 0.9719% / 0.97186409 | R3P
54.6	Ukrainian
38.3	Italian_Molise
7.1	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_Central
Distance: 0.9179% / 0.91791462 | R3P
48.5	Belarusian_Minsk
28.3	Greek_North_Aegean
23.2	Italian_Lombardy

Target: Serb_Serbia_South
Distance: 0.6107% / 0.61066313 | R3P
47.3	Belarusian_Minsk
31.3	Greek_Chios
21.4	Italian_Lombardy

Target: Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
Distance: 0.9584% / 0.95841008 | R3P
59.3	Polish_Lesser_Poland
34.2	Greek_North_Aegean
6.5	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_West
Distance: 0.9353% / 0.93526146 | R3P
47.0	Italian_Lombardy
39.1	Latvian
13.9	Turk_East_Black_Sea

Target: Serb_Southern_Montenegro
Distance: 0.8541% / 0.85412427 | R3P
49.3	Polish_Silesia
46.2	Italian_Apulia
4.5	Italian_Sardinia

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 0.4238% / 0.42377292 | R3P
49.5	Polish_North_Wielkopolska
31.3	Italian_Veneto
19.2	Polish_Silesia

[Voskos]

Medieval Greeks and their modern descendants.