German GEDmatch results

[Peterski]

Another point, there should be a good deal of interrelatedness among Germans. Maybe not so much between north and south (I'd be interested in that), but certainly east and west, since East Germany was settled by West Germans during the Ostsiedlung. Yes, they absorbed Slavic blood and were changed to a certain degree, but they were still related, which is for me an important part of the idea of nationhood.

Well, at least Ashkenazi Jews are definitely a nation because they are all 30th cousins:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/n...e-30th-cousins

"According to a new study, all Ashkenazi Jews are basically cousins. More specifically, Ashkenazi Jews are at least 30th cousins."

And that demographic miracle happened in Polish Rzeczpospolita as this study shows:

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...180?login=true

"extreme population growth in the Eastern AJ (0.250 per generation)"

How come that Jews who remained in the Holy Roman Empire (Western AJ) could not achieve such rapid growth, but only 0.069 per generation?

BTW that fast population growth and very large numbers of children which Jewish families tended to have was noticed by contemporary Polish authors. Already in year 1598 nobleman Sebastian Miczynski noted the following about Jewish fertility in Poland:

"Jews marry at age 12, they don't fight in wars, they don't die from bad air, and so they breed like rabbits."

[J. Ketch]

The concept of nation predates the concept of genetic clustering.

The concept of nation originally referred to peoples of the same birth or origin. That is arguable for many modern 'nations', who are tied together more by politics than birth/origin. And just because the concept of genetic clustering didn't exist in the past, doesn't mean it didn't exist, it being a reflection of people's common blood, or lack thereof.

[Leto]

I admit it's rather arbitrary, but you have to draw the line somewhere regarding homogeneity - parts of Germany have vastly different ancestral origins, and are closer to foreign nations than to people within the borders of their own nation. It's worthy of distinction from the more homogenous, natural nations with essentially the same origins.

Spain & Portugal are fairly homogeneous in Europe and it's like 50 million people.
By the way, the Greeks are diverse too since you mentioned Italy and France. Some Greeks such as the Pontians don't even fall into any of the European clusters whereas some of the Northern Greeks are just slightly south of Bulgaria/Serbia.

[Peterski]

I admit it's rather arbitrary, but you have to draw the line somewhere regarding homogeneity - parts of Germany have vastly different ancestral origins, and are closer to foreign nations than to people within the borders of their own nation. It's worthy of distinction from the more homogenous, natural nations with essentially the same origins.

You are exaggerating IMO, there are just three main/major genetic clusters of Germans - Northwestern, Southwestern, and Eastern.

Of course there are also other minor clusters, for example as of year 1824 there were about 200,000 Lithuanians living in East Prussia [the total population of East Prussia was 1,080,000 at that time]. Autosomally they were probably just like Lithuanians in the Russian Empire, but unlike them they were Protestant. These Protestant Lithuanians became Germanized during the 19th century, but their DNA of course still persisted. In the 1939 census East Prussia had 2,490,000 inhabitants - so proportionally about 450,000 should be descended from Lithuanians, even though they were no longer counted as Lithuanians in censuses. During and after WW2 they all moved westward to Germany.

If there are still unmixed descendants of those Lithuanians living in Germany today, they are going to cluster autosomally with Balts. Of course if they mix with West Germans then children are going to be intermediate.

So actually some Germans can be autosomally as far east as Lithuanian-like (Czech-like is not their eastern limit).

[J. Ketch]

We should also keep in mind that Germany is terribly undersampled, both on Eurogenes and Global25. All the regions that should form a cline between the west and the east of the country are missing.

It's a mistake to assume German regions form a smooth cline from North to South and East to West, I think Peterski will agree.

You are exaggerating IMO, there are just three main/major genetic clusters of Germans - Northwestern, Southwestern, and Eastern.

Three is more than one. Arguably more if you're talking about ancestral origins rather than just clustering, near pure Germans (NW), Celto-Germans (South/West), Slavo-Germans (NE), Celto-Slavo-Germans (Austria and East Germany), and Balto-Germans from East Prussia.

Of course there are also other minor clusters, for example as of year 1824 there were about 200,000 Lithuanians living in East Prussia [the total population of East Prussia was 1,080,000 at that time]. Autosomally they were probably just like Lithuanians in the Russian Empire, but unlike them they were Protestant. These Protestant Lithuanians became Germanized during the 19th century, but their DNA of course still persisted. In the 1939 census East Prussia had 2,490,000 inhabitants - so proportionally about 450,000 should be descended from Lithuanians, even though they were no longer counted as Lithuanians in censuses. During and after WW2 they all moved westward to Germany.

If there are still unmixed descendants of those Lithuanians living in Germany today, they are going to cluster autosomally with Balts. Of course if they mix with West Germans then children are going to be intermediate.

So actually some Germans can be autosomally as far east as Lithuanian-like (Czech-like is not their eastern limit).

I know, I found that Colonial South Australian German kit that was similar to Poles.

1	Baltic	38.46
2	North_Atlantic	34.74
3	West_Med	11.92
4	West_Asian	6.49
5	East_Med	5.1
6	Siberian	1.49
7	South_Asian	0.85
8	Oceanian	0.51
9	Amerindian	0.44

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	South_Polish	4.99
2	East_German	6.81
3	Ukrainian_Lviv	7.33
4	Ukrainian	7.65
5	Polish	7.76
6	Hungarian	7.89
7	Croatian	8.47
8	Austrian	8.95
9	Southwest_Finnish	9.47
10	North_Swedish	10.76
11	Russian_Smolensk	11.14
12	Southwest_Russian	11.48
13	Belorussian	11.75
14	Moldavian	11.75
15	Estonian_Polish	11.76
16	Ukrainian_Belgorod	11.85
17	Finnish	13
18	Estonian	13.1
19	Swedish	14.29
20	Kargopol_Russian	14.43

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	 	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1	 	79.7%	South_Polish	+	20.3%	Orcadian	@	1.08
2	 	69.7%	Ukrainian	+	30.3%	North_Dutch	@	1.08
3	 	81.3%	South_Polish	+	18.7%	West_Scottish	@	1.17
4	 	80.6%	South_Polish	+	19.4%	Irish	@	1.18
5	 	81.4%	South_Polish	+	18.6%	Southwest_English	@	1.19
6	 	69.3%	Ukrainian	+	30.7%	Danish	@	1.2
7	 	73.6%	Ukrainian	+	26.4%	West_Scottish	@	1.22
8	 	71.7%	Ukrainian	+	28.3%	Orcadian	@	1.24
9	 	66.1%	Ukrainian	+	33.9%	North_German	@	1.24
10	 	72.7%	Ukrainian	+	27.3%	Irish	@	1.28
11	 	80.1%	South_Polish	+	19.9%	Southeast_English	@	1.32
12	 	78.4%	South_Polish	+	21.6%	North_Dutch	@	1.37
13	 	69.4%	Ukrainian	+	30.6%	Norwegian	@	1.42
14	 	65%	Southwest_Russian	+	35%	Southwest_English	@	1.45
15	 	78.1%	South_Polish	+	21.9%	Danish	@	1.49
16	 	78.2%	South_Polish	+	21.8%	Norwegian	@	1.54
17	 	75.6%	South_Polish	+	24.4%	North_German	@	1.56
18	 	72.1%	Ukrainian	+	27.9%	Southeast_English	@	1.56
19	 	73.9%	Ukrainian	+	26.1%	Southwest_English	@	1.6
20	 	59.6%	Austrian	+	40.4%	Estonian	@	1.63

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...t_in_Australia

[Leto]

Born in MeckPomm, lives in Baden-Württemberg. This woman has dark hair and eyes, by the way

North_Atlantic 42.62 Pct
Baltic 30.64 Pct
West_Med 10.58 Pct
West_Asian 6.62 Pct
East_Med 4.99 Pct
Red_Sea 0.7 Pct
South_Asian 1.5 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.22 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.31 Pct
Northeast_African 0.84 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 5.15
2 East_German 6.29
3 Swedish 6.44
4 Austrian 6.81
5 Danish 7.61
6 North_Swedish 7.85
7 North_Dutch 8.11
8 Norwegian 8.38
9 West_German 8.86
10 South_Dutch 9.3
11 Orcadian 9.97
12 Southeast_English 10.28
13 Hungarian 10.29
14 Irish 10.92
15 West_Scottish 11.78
16 Southwest_English 12.17
17 Southwest_Finnish 13.98
18 South_Polish 14.54
19 French 15.15
20 Croatian 15.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.5% North_German + 25.5% South_Polish @ 1.34
2 77.7% North_German + 22.3% Ukrainian @ 1.34
3 77.1% North_German + 22.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.42
4 80.8% North_German + 19.2% Southwest_Russian @ 1.5
5 69.1% Danish + 30.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.59
6 84.6% North_German + 15.4% Erzya @ 1.64
7 62% Swedish + 38% Hungarian @ 1.66
8 73.7% Swedish + 26.3% Serbian @ 1.68
9 82.6% North_German + 17.4% Kargopol_Russian @ 1.71
10 81.2% North_German + 18.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.76
11 81.2% North_German + 18.8% Estonian_Polish @ 1.81
12 66.1% Danish + 33.9% South_Polish @ 1.85
13 77.6% Swedish + 22.4% Romanian @ 1.86
14 77.9% North_German + 22.1% Polish @ 1.87
15 55.3% Norwegian + 44.7% Hungarian @ 1.89
16 80.9% North_German + 19.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 1.9
17 51.5% Swedish + 48.5% Austrian @ 1.91
18 79.8% Swedish + 20.2% Bulgarian @ 1.92
19 67.3% Danish + 32.7% Croatian @ 1.92
20 70.1% Danish + 29.9% Ukrainian @ 1.93

Pretty Slav-blooded too. If only Gedmatch had existed 80 years ago, maybe the Nazis wouldn't have invaded us. So many lives would have been spared. Oh well

[Peterski]

I know, I found that Colonial South Australian German kit that was similar to Poles.

Here is a German kit with 100% ancestors from Klein Litauen sub-region of East Prussia [this area had ca. 200,000 Lithuanians as of 1824]:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/

This person has only a small German admixture (add ~14% German to Lithuanians and you get Belarusians as closest in Single Distances):

Eurogenes K15:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Belorussian 4.24
2 Estonian_Polish 5.27
3 Lithuanian 5.38
4 Russian_Smolensk 5.91
5 Polish 6.63
6 Estonian 7.22
7 Southwest_Russian 7.34
8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 8.18
9 South_Polish 9.05
10 Ukrainian 10.36
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.99
12 Kargopol_Russian 12.12
13 Finnish 14.1
14 East_Finnish 14.26
15 Southwest_Finnish 14.31
16 Erzya 14.43
17 La_Brana-1 15.04
18 Croatian 15.05
19 Hungarian 17.23
20 Austrian 17.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.2% Lithuanian + 12.8% Irish @ 3.58
2 87.5% Lithuanian + 12.5% West_Scottish @ 3.61
3 85.6% Lithuanian + 14.4% North_German @ 3.68
4 87.8% Lithuanian + 12.2% Southeast_English @ 3.74
5 86.9% Lithuanian + 13.1% Danish @ 3.76
6 88.9% Lithuanian + 11.1% Orcadian @ 3.85
7 91.8% Lithuanian + 8.2% French_Basque @ 3.87
8 87.6% Lithuanian + 12.4% North_Dutch @ 3.91
9 88.5% Lithuanian + 11.5% Southwest_English @ 3.93
10 79% Lithuanian + 21% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.95
11 88% Lithuanian + 12% South_Dutch @ 4.05
12 82.7% Belorussian + 17.3% Estonian @ 4.05
13 92.4% Belorussian + 7.6% La_Brana-1 @ 4.07
14 96.2% Belorussian + 3.8% Irish @ 4.1
15 96.3% Belorussian + 3.7% West_Scottish @ 4.11
16 77.1% Belorussian + 22.9% Lithuanian @ 4.11
17 97.1% Belorussian + 2.9% Orcadian @ 4.14
18 96.6% Belorussian + 3.4% Danish @ 4.14
19 96.7% Belorussian + 3.3% North_Dutch @ 4.15
20 94.1% Belorussian + 5.9% Southwest_Finnish @ 4.15

^^^
This person now lives in Germany (family resettled from East Prussia to present-day Germany in the 1940s).

[Leto]

I know, I found that Colonial South Australian German kit that was similar to Poles.

Holy shit, he's literally 70% Slavic (Ukrainian) and 30% Germanic (Dutch)!

[Peterski]

Pretty Slav-blooded too. If only Gedmatch had existed 80 years ago, maybe the Nazis wouldn't have invaded us.

Your Slavicness did not bother the Nazis when they were your allies in 1939-1941.

I think it was just a pretext. And of course they wanted Lebensraum, you had a lot.

[Mejgusu]

Are Russlanddeutsche mixed? I know some and they look sometimes very Russian for me. Nearly everyone are from Kazakhstan, most I know describe themselves as Russians(which has social reasons). I spent my high school years with playing durak with them and former Soviet citizens xd.