Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

[MoroLP]

The issue is that some of the biggest Bosniak nationalists come from Sandžak. Surely at least 80% of them feel no different from their muslim brethern from Bosnia and considerably closer to them than to the neighbouring Serbo-Montenegrins and Albanians. The amount of people who identify as "Bosniak" instead of "Muslim" keeps dropping with every passing census. Heck, the best proof of how successful the assimilation process has been in that region is the very fact that their DNA project is being run by Sandžakians

And lastly, like everyone (but them) knows, the Bosniak ethnic identity is a modern-day invention that has an exclusive basis in islam. The same criteria that's applied to Serbs, Croats, Albanians, Bulgarians, etc. cannot be applied to them.

I am talking about genetics not politics. They are free to think, feel and do how they like it. Good for them and those Sandžakians have done a good job with their DNA project.

As for Bosniak ethnic identity it is more complex than how you presented it. It does have strong medieval basis, as those mentioned, while correlation with religious affiliation like Croatian and Serbian. All of them are more or less modern inventions.

[CommonSense]

I am talking about genetics not politics. They are free to think, feel and do how they like it. Good for them and those Sandžakians have done a good job with their DNA project.

As for Bosniak ethnic identity it is more complex than how you presented it. It does have strong medieval basis, as those mentioned, while correlation with religious affiliation like Croatian and Serbian. All of them are more or less modern inventions.

No, because the ancestors of these people rejected their medieval heritage the moment they accepted islam. None of those wealthy beys had any clue who Tvrtko and Kulin ban were or their own connection to the land. Hell, most of them simply identified as Turks Serbs and Croats on the other hand have always been adherents to the same faith and their folklore and heritage reflect their medieval and post-medieval past.

Some of the modern cohesive factors of the Bosniak identity were only recently brought up by their intelectual elites, i. e. the stećci, krstjani, etc.

[MoroLP]

No, because the ancestors of these people rejected their medieval heritage the moment they accepted islam...

When accepted Christianity and other cultural customs did pagan Croats and Serbs become Greco-Romans or Judeo-Christians? No, but could have. Let's leave it at it is complex...

[RogueState]

Serbs and Croats have ethnic consciousness from centuries, gaining legitimacy to build an ethnic identity despite moving territories (that's why there are Serbs and Croats outside proper Serbia and Croatia), that have become natural feelings, even if there are some genetical heterogeneity.

In the case of Bosniaks, it's a recent identification that came too late in the course of history (ethnic nationalism was a 19th century concept), in the sense that in our postmodern globalized world, the ethnic-national identities are much more liquid and less relevant than before, so it's hard to create a strong identity in the late 20th-early 21st centuries. This is also why they are unable to maintain a functional state because there is no central Bosnia identity firstly, and not even strong Bosniak identity to impose it over others. IMO Bosnia Bosniaks would be better off to let Republika Srpska join Serbia and to be annexed to Croatia.

Another controversial case is the Serb-Montenegrin division, as we can say in the political scene of Montenegro.

Greeks had an empire and great civilizations for centuries, they have been able to assimilate colonized people in Anatolia and Islands; so despite genetic diversity nowadays (especially with Pontians, Cypriots, Cappadoceans), they have a strong pan-Hellenic identity that legitimize the Greek umbrella identity.

Same with Turks, it's a large country of more than 2000 km, with regional differences between West and East and North, but unified for centuries under a civilization and empire (Ottoman-Islamic), that legitimize a common Turkish ethnic identity between a Yörük from Southwest and a Trabzonian from Northeast.

[MoroLP]

Nice post, but the confusion arises between the meaning of Bosnian and Bosniak. The former is medieval and they are trying to reconnect it with the post-Ottoman & more modern identity. It is legitimate since it is still the same population and dialect. The same history they inherited. Will leave it at that.

[rothaer]

^^^
That's not what Sven told me, he said, quote: "she is a Sorb, but Sorbian culture was suppressed in this area [by Germanization]".

Even you did not strongly insist on calling that individual German back then. You have changed your mind after 3 years.

I told you from the very first beginning about her ancestors and the lack of Sorbs among her whole known and researched ancestry! Otherwise her DNA result would not have been a surprise. You obviously preferred not to tell about her ethnic German ancestry to Davidski. This is really incredible.

And you were well aware of her only known ethnic German ancestry. Otherwise you would not have suggested to check for a NPE.

I didn't change my mind in how to call her. Why should I "insist" on calling her a German, when that was never a topic? There was never a talk about that you would take that woman as a reference for a Sorb. I remember well how I thought about it being a bad joke when I later got to know that she was labeled Sorb and used as a respective reference. So it was not even a misunderstanding, but a deliberate lie about her ethnicity. That you seriously try to defend that manipulation disqualifies you enduringly as a reliable source for anything.

[rothaer]

(...) But he said these academic Sorbs cannot be added to G25.

Why?

[Leto]

I told you from the very first beginning about her ancestors and the lack of Sorbs among her whole known and researched ancestry! Otherwise her DNA result would not have been a surprise. You obviously preferred not to tell about her ethnic German ancestry to Davidski. This is really incredible.

And you were well aware of her only known ethnic German ancestry. Otherwise you would not have suggested to check for a NPE.

I didn't change my mind in how to call her. Why should I "insist" on calling her a German, when that was never a topic? There was never a talk about that you would take that woman as a reference for a Sorb. I remember well how I thought about it being a bad joke when I later got to know that she was labeled Sorb and used as a respective reference. So it was not even a misunderstanding, but a deliberate lie about her ethnicity. That you seriously try to defend that manipulation disqualifies you enduringly as a reliable source for anything.

Hey Alter, do we actually need that outlier in the spreadsheet? Piotr won't leave it alone. If it's just an assimilated Sorbian family, let it be Sorbian for genetic purposes because nowadays big languages are spoken by all sorts of people.

[Dušan]

If it's just an assimilated Sorbian family, let it be Sorbian for genetic purposes because nowadays big languages are spoken by all sorts of people.

It looks more logical like this

Distance to:	Dušan
2.99684634	60.00% Sorbian + 40.00% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.05662272	37.00% Sorbian + 63.00% Moldovan_South
3.15036793	62.40% Sorbian + 37.60% Greek_Eastern_Thrace
3.15255447	47.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl + 52.20% Torbesh
3.22959276	66.00% Sorbian + 34.00% Greek_Athens
3.26174619	48.80% Gagauz + 51.20% Sorbian
3.26749765	63.00% Sorbian + 37.00% Greek_Peloponnese
3.27490210	53.20% Albanian_Gheg + 46.80% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.28290686	65.40% Sorbian + 34.60% Greek_Central
3.29547691	58.80% Sorbian + 41.20% Torbesh
3.30894402	60.60% Sorbian + 39.40% Greek_Eastern_Macedonia
3.32614797	62.20% Sorbian + 37.80% Greek_Western
3.33168204	42.20% Albanian_Gheg + 57.80% Sorbian
3.37087127	52.00% Bulgarian_Southcentral + 48.00% Sorbian
3.39539371	45.40% German_East_Prussia_Memelland + 54.60% Greek_Central_Macedonia
3.40265402	40.80% Albanian + 59.20% Sorbian
3.40313615	71.40% Sorbian + 28.60% Greek_North_Aegean
3.41701210	42.80% Sorbian + 57.20% Romanian_Dobruja
3.41782023	74.60% Sorbian + 25.40% Greek_Symi
3.42376172	68.40% Sorbian + 31.60% Greek_Ionia
3.43945279	52.00% Albanian + 48.00% Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
3.45853400	60.20% Sorbian + 39.80% Greek_Thessaly
3.46017343	55.60% Sorbian + 44.40% North_Macedonian_South
3.46388139	54.40% Sorbian + 45.60% Greek_Northern_Thrace
3.46978529	58.80% Bulgarian_Northwestern + 41.20% Sorbian
3.48561544	70.00% Sorbian + 30.00% Italian_Sicily
3.49441510	68.40% Sorbian + 31.60% Greek_Cyclades
3.51017353	47.40% Bulgarian_Southeastern + 52.60% Sorbian
3.52466397	53.60% Bulgarian + 46.40% Sorbian
3.53201934	69.60% Sorbian + 30.40% Italian_Apulia

[Leto]

It looks more logical like this

Haha, yep. The "official" Sorbian average has more Western blood than that supposedly German woman. See the huge distance between them:

Distance to: Sorb
3.25868071 Upper_Silesia
3.28952884 Polish_South
3.32580817 Polish_Lesser_Poland
3.41367837 Polish_Greater_Poland
4.40064768 German_West_Prussia
4.66282103 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
4.70422151 Czech
4.89182992 Polish_Silesia
5.10763155 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
5.22096734 Polish_Subcarpathia
5.57266543 Polish_Kujavia
5.74609433 Slovak
5.85506618 Polish
6.44893790 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.13325311 Polish_Mazovia
7.28457274 Ukrainian_South
7.29851355 Polish_Podlaskie
7.81752518 Ukrainian_Moldova
7.85799593 Ukrainian_Northwest
8.06015509 Ukrainian
8.13410720 Hungarian_North
8.22238408 Ukrainian_North
8.26645027 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
8.66050229 German_Saxony
8.68047234 Slovene

Next time I'm going to add a third generation British Jamaican who lives in London, drinks tea, eats fish and chips, watches football and supports the monarchy.