Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

[Leto]

On a more serious note - are those Prussian averages representative? I'm asking because I know of a Russian American woman (posted her on TA years ago), she has 7 great-grandparents who were born in modern Russia and one who was born in modern Poland (Suprasl, Podlaskie voivodeship). The latter was of German ethnicity on paper (hardcore German names and last names). But the woman herself scores zero Germanic, as if she was 100% Russian.

[vbnetkhio]

This person should be averaged with at least 10 members of his genetic group, by that I mean the population of Beeskow, and whichever areas had the same demographic processes as Beeskow.

His high Baltic could just be a personal variation, not reflecting actual increased Slavic ancestry, and the Baltic average of his population could be much lower in reality.

Individual results and population averages are 2 different things, they shouldn't be mixed.

[rothaer]

This person should be averaged with at least 10 members of his genetic group, by that I mean the population of Beeskow, and whichever areas had the same demographic processes as Beeskow.
His high Baltic could just be a personal variation, not reflecting actual increased Slavic ancestry, and the Baltic average of his population could be much lower in reality.
Individual results and population averages are 2 different things, they shouldn't be mixed.

I agree. This was my first wish after I first saw her results. Already one more sample with that local ancestry would enlight.

In case she would not be represantative for that more local area it and would just be a personal variation (is that possible to such a big degree?) she should not be used at all. But maybe she is representative there. I think having her mentioned and marking that result an outlier in a Brandenburg context is the most careful and observant way to handle that result. Nobody will misunderstand an outlier as representative and on the other hand we did not hide this existing result. Maybe there is something to detect.

[rothaer]

On a more serious note -

Thanks.

are those Prussian averages representative? I'm asking because I know of a Russian American woman (posted her on TA years ago), she has 7 great-grandparents who were born in modern Russia and one who was born in modern Poland (Suprasl, Podlaskie voivodeship). The latter was of German ethnicity on paper (hardcore German names and last names). But the woman herself scores zero Germanic, as if she was 100% Russian.

So it's about someone with 7/8 Russian and 1/8 German ancestry, where you ask for the characteristics of that German ancestry? As for Prussia, do you refer to East Prussia, where there are three averages? If so, there were such different populations. The averages are based of few samples just, but in tendency that will be applicable, yes. As for the variation there will always remain some question marks. But for East Prussia Masuria f. i. there are two confirmed deeply rooted kits, one from the easternmost and one from the westernmost area and they both score very similar.

As for "German ethnicity on paper": I don't know what you think about German ethnicity. It's not defined by gentics, but by historical development and whether these individuals traditionally speak German or not. Seemimgly they did. So they are Germans. Genetics play also a role, but just as making the borders of what historically und undisputedly became German. Genetics beyond that border can not really be German, but what you describe lies within these borders.

[vbnetkhio]

is that possible to such a big degree?

Yes, I have seen collections of Balkan results from the same village or micro-region where a component can have a range of 9, 10, or even 11.

That's simply how fully intermixed populations act in genetic software, including G25.

Big immigration centres with free intermarriage have even bigger ranges.

[Peterski]

This person should be averaged with at least 10 members of his genetic group, by that I mean the population of Beeskow, and whichever areas had the same demographic processes as Beeskow.

His high Baltic could just be a personal variation, not reflecting actual increased Slavic ancestry, and the Baltic average of his population could be much lower in reality.

People from this whole region (especially from the eastern half of it, between Storkow-Beskow) will all have similar results:

https://www.sorabicon.de/kulturlexik...v_ib2_m3d_r3b/

[Jana]

West Prussia in particular has large sample size for our standards (like 10 or something), Pomerania isn't bad either. Yes. Prussian averages look fine.

[Leto]

Thanks.



So it's about someone with 7/8 Russian and 1/8 German ancestry, where you ask for the characteristics of that German ancestry? As for Prussia, do you refer to East Prussia, where there are three averages? If so, there were such different populations. The averages are based of few samples just, but in tendency that will be applicable, yes. As for the variation there will always remain some question marks. But for East Prussia Masuria f. i. there are two confirmed deeply rooted kits, one from the easternmost and one from the westernmost area and they both score very similar.

As for "German ethnicity on paper": I don't know what you think about German ethnicity. It's not defined by gentics, but by historical development and whether these individuals traditionally speak German or not. Seemimgly they did. So they are Germans. Genetics play also a role, but just as making the borders of what historically und undisputedly became German. Genetics beyond that border can not really be German, but what you describe lies within these borders.

Yes, I was asking whether in the case of that woman her German was undetectable by Gedmatch because it was initially heavily Eastern European. 1/8 is not a lot, unless it's Chinese, black or Amerindian. But she did get 6.8% "broadly Northwestern European" back in 2017. No idea about her current results, I think she is more into genealogy than race and doesn't care much about ancestry compositions.

[Peterski]

would just be a personal variation (is that possible to such a big degree?)

Personal variation can be quite big even in small areas. Carloforte is a good example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carloforte

^^^ This is the only town on San Pietro Island:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Pietro_Island

The town has just 6000 inhabitants of whom 25 were tested and DNA was published.

All of 25 people are native to this population - of course. Here their G25 coordinates:

Carloforte:Carloforte1,0.118376,0.140143,0.029415,-0.015181,0.032621,-0.001673,-0.004935,0.007384,0.014112,0.023873,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018434,-0.012661,-0.000136,0.004508,0.006389,-0.00076,0.005279,0.002126,0.00025,0.001607,-0.002095,0.007109,-0.000599
Carloforte:Carloforte2,0.111547,0.149283,0.019987,-0.024225,0.031083,0.000558,-0.008695,-0.005307,0.014521,0.040456,0.002923,0.006294,-0.011447,-0.012799,-0.011808,0.005834,0.022296,0.001394,-0.004651,-0.002876,0.003619,0.002473,-0.001725,0.00482,0.002754
Carloforte:Carloforte3,0.1161,0.157407,0.025644,-0.019057,0.023081,-0.000279,0.00235,0.002077,0.008181,0.033349,0.0032 48,0.005395,-0.014866,-0.005092,-0.0038,-0.003713,-0.00326,0.001774,0.002137,-0.008129,-0.006364,0.003586,0.000986,0.003253,0.009819
Carloforte:Carloforte4,0.129758,0.155376,0.025267,-0.016796,0.027082,-0.004462,0.00799,-0.009461,0.005318,0.02278,-0.002436,0.004796,-0.017839,-0.006193,0.004614,0.001458,0.002999,0.00228,0.0099 3,-0.000875,-0.000749,0.001978,-0.004807,-0.000723,-0.001078
Carloforte:Carloforte5,0.1161,0.146236,0.023759,-0.011628,0.033545,-0.004741,-0.00235,-0.007615,0.010431,0.029887,0.004872,0.01154,-0.008028,-0.007019,-0.001221,-0.012066,-0.005085,0.007095,0.006662,-0.002126,0.005989,0.004946,-0.001356,0.006145,0.004191
Carloforte:Carloforte6,0.114961,0.148267,0.027907,-0.011951,0.030775,-0.007809,-0.00141,-0.001615,0.017589,0.019681,0.008282,0.000899,-0.01219,-0.009496,-0.0019,0.020684,0.01356,-0.003674,0.004525,-0.00075,-0.008859,-0.004081,0.000616,-0.001687,0.000359
Carloforte:Carloforte7,0.119514,0.150298,0.024513,-0.018411,0.043085,-0.008088,0,-0.007846,0.010226,0.033349,0.000162,0.01079,-0.017988,-0.007707,-0.008143,-0.010209,0.002347,-0.006714,0.005405,-0.006128,-0.003494,-0.001607,-0.000986,-0.006627,0.000239
Carloforte:Carloforte8,0.120652,0.153345,0.009805,-0.02907,0.039084,-0.001394,0.00658,-0.001385,0.001636,0.026424,-0.005196,0.014537,-0.020367,-0.009496,-0.005565,0.010342,0.025164,-0.000507,0.003771,0.000625,-0.002246,0.000989,-0.00493,-0.002771,-0.003233
Carloforte:Carloforte9,0.124067,0.152329,0.013576,-0.017119,0.034468,-0.009482,0.005875,0.003,0.007976,0.030069,-0.005521,0.006145,-0.01219,-0.009083,0.000136,0.009812,0.014603,0.000127,0.000 754,0.008004,-0.000374,0.002968,-0.005546,0.005061,0.00012
Carloforte:Carloforte10,0.108132,0.150298,0.022627 ,-0.019703,0.025235,-0.011992,0.006815,-0.003692,0.008999,0.018953,0.009256,0.013638,-0.013528,-0.003165,0.005429,-0.001989,0.007823,-0.000253,0.004777,-0.002501,-0.003993,-0.003339,0.004683,-0.003133,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte11,0.1161,0.14319,0.021873,-0.018734,0.031698,0,0.009635,0.003231,0.009408,0.0 27518,0.00341,0.009591,-0.010704,-0.001789,0.002579,0.007558,0.002738,-0.004054,0.005656,-0.011756,0.004492,0.000742,-0.001602,-0.006748,0.00455
Carloforte:Carloforte12,0.126344,0.153345,0.026776 ,-0.024871,0.037853,-0.00753,0.00752,-0.003,0.01943,0.038452,0.002273,0.009741,-0.024083,-0.005505,0.002986,-0.001193,0.010561,0.000507,-0.000628,-0.007379,0.011605,0.012242,-0.006409,-0.003976,0.001437
Carloforte:Carloforte13,0.119514,0.147252,0.022627 ,-0.018734,0.025235,-0.012829,-0.003995,0.002077,0.007772,0.030616,0.007145,0.008 243,-0.007433,-0.007294,-0.000136,-0.001061,0.010431,-0.003041,0.00729,-0.006378,0.007487,0.001978,-0.002465,0.000241,0.003353
Carloforte:Carloforte14,0.126344,0.157407,0.02489,-0.036822,0.04647,-0.019801,0.004935,0.002769,0.022702,0.034078,0.006 82,0.01079,-0.016947,0,-0.017236,-0.004773,0.013951,0.000127,0.00352,-0.001751,0.004492,0.000247,-0.004807,-0.007471,-0.009939
Carloforte:Carloforte15,0.122929,0.142174,0.023381 ,-0.022933,0.018465,0.000279,0.00235,0.006231,0.0069 54,0.035354,0.001949,0.006444,-0.014717,-0.010872,-0.000407,0.000265,0.003651,0.004307,0.005028,-0.004752,-0.002995,0.000495,-0.003697,-0.007712,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte16,0.127482,0.150298,0.012068 ,-0.029716,0.032621,-0.00502,-0.00141,-0.004154,0.013703,0.032985,0.004222,0.010341,-0.016799,-0.000826,-0.000814,-0.01127,-0.015516,0.008235,0.005531,-0.007128,-0.000873,-0.003586,-0.008134,-0.002771,-0.005628
Carloforte:Carloforte17,0.126344,0.150298,0.016216 ,-0.021641,0.030159,-0.010319,-0.003995,-0.001846,0.017589,0.02606,-0.001949,0.004646,-0.012339,-0.007019,-0.00475,-0.001061,0.018906,0.003547,0.000377,-0.009129,-0.005116,0.003215,-0.001725,-0.001084,0.002754
Carloforte:Carloforte18,0.117238,0.148267,0.025644 ,-0.026809,0.026774,-0.012271,0.001175,-0.000231,0.01309,0.04155,-0.000487,0.017085,-0.013082,-0.013074,-0.000271,-0.013789,-0.005867,0.010388,0.001508,-0.01138,0.006988,0.001113,-0.004067,-0.010363,0.008622
Carloforte:Carloforte19,0.118376,0.140143,0.027907 ,-0.02261,0.025235,-0.009482,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.018203,0.040821,0.004872,0.008992,-0.019326,-0.014038,0.003664,0.011535,0.017471,-0.00266,0.016341,0.006628,-0.004742,-0.008037,-0.010476,0.005422,-0.002275
Carloforte:Carloforte20,0.124067,0.14319,0.014331,-0.011628,0.031083,-0.010877,0.012221,-0.002308,0.011862,0.021686,-0.004709,0.008692,-0.002081,0,-0.002986,-0.015646,-0.017471,0.003674,0.000503,-0.017258,0.002246,0.00272,-0.002835,-0.005422,-0.001317
Carloforte:Carloforte21,0.120652,0.151314,0.019233 ,-0.014212,0.030467,-0.014223,0.003995,0.000923,0.012067,0.036083,0.000 162,0.010041,-0.00996,-0.00523,-0.013572,-0.009679,0.001173,0.004181,0.013073,-0.005253,0.001747,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.008555,0.006107
Carloforte:Carloforte22,0.12862,0.142174,0.022627,-0.019703,0.035083,-0.005299,0.011516,0,0.020248,0.030616,0.003897,0.0 08692,-0.015015,0.001239,-0.006379,-0.00769,0.005215,-0.010515,0.009553,0.002626,-0.001373,-0.000866,0.00037,-0.005061,-0.007664
Carloforte:Carloforte23,0.120652,0.145221,0.01961,-0.010013,0.035391,-0.003347,-0.003525,-0.002308,0.010635,0.033349,-0.005521,0.013188,-0.012339,-0.00234,0.004343,0.004773,0.004563,0.007855,-0.005656,-0.01013,-0.003369,0.001607,-0.011339,0.003615,-0.005508
Carloforte:Carloforte24,0.120652,0.155376,0.015462 ,-0.02584,0.038469,-0.016733,0.000235,0.001846,0.006136,0.045923,0.003 248,0.010041,-0.015312,-0.007156,-0.005022,-0.009546,-0.012647,0.006334,0.013324,-0.004877,0.000125,0.004946,-0.006902,-0.015303,-0.00012
Carloforte:Carloforte25,0.110408,0.15436,0.012822,-0.018734,0.026159,-0.011156,0.000705,0.000692,0.012271,0.0277,-0.001624,0.008992,-0.011596,-0.006331,-0.008143,-0.000663,0.002868,0.00114,0.002263,-0.011631,-0.000374,-0.002226,-0.002465,0.00482,0.005029

^^^
They cover a rather big area in PCA considering that they are a town of just 6000 inhabitants:



And Single Distances:

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte1
0.02076565	Swiss_Italian
0.02384261	Italian_Bergamo
0.02424425	Italian_Veneto
0.02527748	Italian_Piedmont
0.02594531	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte2
0.03044388	French_Corsica
0.03581507	Italian_Tuscany
0.03617303	Italian_Umbria
0.03803864	Swiss_Italian
0.03911758	Italian_Piedmont

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte3
0.02387248	Italian_Piedmont
0.02429385	Italian_Lombardy
0.02456843	Italian_Bergamo
0.02670098	Italian_Tuscany
0.02693378	French_Corsica

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte4
0.02291045	Italian_Piedmont
0.02526814	Italian_Bergamo
0.02565576	Italian_Tuscany
0.02580813	Italian_Veneto
0.02704315	Italian_Lombardy

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte5
0.02128402	Italian_Lombardy
0.02380439	Italian_Piedmont
0.02391717	Italian_Bergamo
0.02725499	Italian_Liguria
0.02845066	Italian_Tuscany

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte6
0.03152175	Swiss_Italian
0.03381633	Italian_Veneto
0.03514316	Italian_Piedmont
0.03524529	Italian_Tuscany
0.03571294	French_Corsica

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte7
0.02173378	French_Corsica
0.02445750	Italian_Bergamo
0.02519527	Italian_Lombardy
0.02824611	Italian_Piedmont
0.03109304	Italian_Tuscany

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte8
0.03575022	Italian_Tuscany
0.03578405	French_Corsica
0.03597875	Italian_Umbria
0.04011912	Italian_Piedmont
0.04080416	Italian_Lazio

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte9
0.02516669	Italian_Tuscany
0.02622731	French_Corsica
0.02726079	Italian_Piedmont
0.02896952	Swiss_Italian
0.02980916	Italian_Umbria

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte10
0.02627606	Italian_Tuscany
0.02745036	Italian_Piedmont
0.03023937	Italian_Umbria
0.03084395	Italian_Marche
0.03179275	Swiss_Italian

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte11
0.02511807	Italian_Piedmont
0.02576543	Swiss_Italian
0.02805001	Italian_Tuscany
0.02836635	Italian_Veneto
0.02845338	Italian_Bergamo

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte12
0.02851555	French_Corsica
0.03483941	Italian_Bergamo
0.03681448	Italian_Lombardy
0.03748679	Italian_Piedmont
0.03766467	Spanish_Menorca

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte13
0.02153072	Italian_Tuscany
0.02298427	French_Corsica
0.02300930	Italian_Piedmont
0.02355354	Swiss_Italian
0.02703136	Italian_Umbria

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte14
0.03442426	French_Corsica
0.04626123	Italian_Bergamo
0.04640215	Italian_Tuscany
0.04780849	Italian_Piedmont
0.04854738	Italian_Lombardy

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte15
0.02652787	Italian_Piedmont
0.02778134	Italian_Tuscany
0.02825599	French_Corsica
0.02879901	Swiss_Italian
0.02972037	Italian_Umbria

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte16
0.03024992	Italian_Lombardy
0.03075323	French_Corsica
0.03394508	Italian_Marche
0.03418593	Italian_Piedmont
0.03430056	Italian_Tuscany

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte17
0.02158485	French_Corsica
0.02389443	Italian_Tuscany
0.02682010	Italian_Piedmont
0.02707020	Italian_Umbria
0.02889627	Swiss_Italian

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte18
0.03190517	French_Corsica
0.03286354	Italian_Lombardy
0.03790808	Italian_Bergamo
0.03863355	Italian_Piedmont
0.04009337	Italian_Tuscany

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte19
0.03730579	French_Corsica
0.04114321	Swiss_Italian
0.04138366	Italian_Tuscany
0.04330407	Italian_Piedmont
0.04355405	Italian_Bergamo

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte20
0.03239653	Italian_Lombardy
0.03386590	Italian_Piedmont
0.03528806	Italian_Liguria
0.03830456	Italian_Bergamo
0.03905739	Italian_Marche

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte21
0.02555641	French_Corsica
0.02928222	Italian_Bergamo
0.02940646	Italian_Lombardy
0.03012987	Italian_Piedmont
0.03176286	Italian_Tuscany

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte22
0.02933245	French_Corsica
0.03050308	Italian_Piedmont
0.03118694	Italian_Bergamo
0.03176968	Italian_Lombardy
0.03215301	Swiss_Italian

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte23
0.02545043	Italian_Piedmont
0.02759564	Italian_Veneto
0.02768242	Italian_Bergamo
0.02782674	French_Corsica
0.02949303	Italian_Lombardy

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte24
0.03331241	French_Corsica
0.03688312	Italian_Lombardy
0.04171490	Italian_Bergamo
0.04187689	Italian_Tuscany
0.04218824	Italian_Piedmont

Distance to:	Carloforte:Carloforte25
0.01896649	Italian_Tuscany
0.02180525	French_Corsica
0.02281220	Italian_Piedmont
0.02306529	Italian_Umbria
0.02384562	Italian_Marche

I can also post their K13, K15, Dodecad K12b etc. results if you want.

[Leto]

Are they mixed with mainland Italians? The Carloforte folks. The island is administered by Sardinia but they don't score it as their first pop.