Serbian autosomal DNA #2

[Catnip]

The Serb cluster is of similar size as those of most other Balkan nations, like e.g. Bulgarians, Albanians, Bosniaks, it's more homogenous than e.g. the Romanian/Moldovan, but they are much more numerous and live on a huge territory.

Maybe it looks homogenous because all are roughly 60/40% Slavic-Balkanic mix, but there variations in the amount of Slavic ancestry and the type of pre-Slavic ancestry.

I see,i'll check than another thread for more results.

[ QUOTE]The thing about Montenegro, specifically the Southern and eastern parts of the country, is IMO not the mountain Vlachs, those were numerous in other areas too, but a large urban Roman population surviving and gradually merging with the Slavs.
In some other areas no pre-Slavic towns survived at all.



Maybe the recent mixing with Albanians plays a role too, but Montenegrins aren't particularly shifted towards them on a population level, it's a slightly different "southern" influence.[/QUOTE]

Interesting stuff. Somehow i dont see Slavs in the mountains neither. At least not at the beginning.

Is there a region with a tendency to be more Slavic? For what i saw that's not Voiwodina, even if it's northernmost?

[Nausevar]

The most slavic serbs are in northern bosnia and central croatia.

[vbnetkhio]

I see,i'll check than another thread for more results.

The thing about Montenegro, specifically the Southern and eastern parts of the country, is IMO not the mountain Vlachs, those were numerous in other areas too, but a large urban Roman population surviving and gradually merging with the Slavs.
In some other areas no pre-Slavic towns survived at all.



Maybe the recent mixing with Albanians plays a role too, but Montenegrins aren't particularly shifted towards them on a population level, it's a slightly different "southern" influence.

Interesting stuff. Somehow i dont see Slavs in the mountains neither. At least not at the beginning.

Is there a region with a tendency to be more Slavic? For what i saw that's not Voiwodina, even if it's northernmost?

Yes, some of the least Slavic results I saw are from Vojvodina.
Vojvodina was settled by Kosovo Serbs (one of the least Slavic groups), and they traditionally mixed with Romanians (who also aren't very Slavic) a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...s_of_the_Serbs

the most Slavic regions are those which Nasuevar mentioned, and also that one called "Podrinje and Posavina" on this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../Serbia022.png

[Catnip]

Yes, some of the least Slavic results I saw are from Vojvodina.
Vojvodina was settled by Kosovo Serbs (one of the least Slavic groups), and they traditionally mixed with Romanians (who also aren't very Slavic) a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...s_of_the_Serbs

the most Slavic regions are those which Nasuevar mentioned, and also that one called "Podrinje and Posavina" on this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../Serbia022.png

Interesting, it seems that Slavs really prefered meadows, rivers, flatter areas.Than Dinaric Alps should certainly be more 'Vlach' admixed. At least in terms of phenotypes than seem to be more authentic western Balkanians

[Varda]

Interesting, it seems that Slavs really prefered meadows, rivers, flatter areas.Than Dinaric Alps should certainly be more 'Vlach' admixed. At least in terms of phenotypes than seem to be more authentic western Balkanians

Serbs from some areas near Drina river (part of western Serbia and NE Bosnia) have high R1a. But vast majority of them originated from Dinaric Alps (migrations in Ottoman time and later). They have high R1a mostly due to local hot spot of R1a-YP3992 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP3992/

[Marsa]

Crostised? These towns have Croats since forever. Croatian saint Leopold Mandić is from Herceg Novi. These towns had nothing to do with Montenegro until post WW2.
Their culture, architecture and people are continuation of southern Croatia.

Well, of course it's continuation, they are mostly settlers from Dalmatia proper and Dubrovnik area - they didn't originate in Montenegro thought.
Leopold Mandić was also originally from Dalmatia, with even deeper ancestry from Bosnia. Question is when did that "since forever" happened?

Croats were in charge for all things maritime, and extended/ settled further towards coastal cities already in the early days of Venice Republic. I'm not familiar with anything else, and I'm not taking D.A.I. as valuable historical source.

Many places including Herzegovina had several malaria outburst in the past. "Rakitno area" went almost entirely desolated once, and few families settled eastern Herzegovina; but majority founded "Neretvica" community in the mountains of Konjic along with some Dalmatians and one Italian family. Those who went east certainly mixed with catholic Montenegrins in the region- but in reality, it's not like religion mattered much to "Vlaj/Dinarids" in the early medieval era.

They were observed as immoral, irreligious and wild by literally everyone outside of the region, including all proper Christians back than. All priests, both catholic and orthodox tried to tamed them, which started to happen only in the late medieval era.

Until than they would go and take some woman they really like and want; they would even steal her if necessary, escape, create a new village. Nowdays, they went in another extreme again lol.

I know I went offtopic, and it's not you stating anything, but reading some of the posts on this forum in general, a person unfamiliar with early medieval "Dinarids" may think they were the most angel-like people, traditionalist and providers lmao, and not Saqaliba-dangerous people from the mountains, an epithet some Arab gave already in the 12th century.

The only thing that really mattered to those men was to survive the harsh life and have as many healthy offsprings as possible; they didn't respect any kind of authority, and only people they truly hated ( and it happened later) were muslims.

And I can't believe that some people really look at paternal haplogroups in such patriarchal regions to explain and justify the entire autosomal through them.

[Catnip]

Serbs from some areas near Drina river (part of western Serbia and NE Bosnia) have high R1a. But vast majority of them originated from Dinaric Alps (migrations in Ottoman time and later). They have high R1a mostly due to local hot spot of R1a-YP3992 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP3992/

Ok, but their settlements were probably in walleys, protected from winds and close to water suplies. Today settlements are even on high latitudes, and i dont see anyone living there in the distant past besides Vlachs, It would too dangereus. Later situation changed. Same is the entire Europe.

@Marsa, i guess those are Dinaric Talibans i heard about Already in the 12th century,wow. They adopted preslavic/vlach way of life, mixed wit them, that's why you are all Vlachoslavs today

[Varda]

Ok, but their settlements were probably in walleys, protected from winds and close to water suplies. Today settlements are even on high latitudes, and i dont see anyone living there in the distant past besides Vlachs, It would too dangereus. Later situation changed. Same is the entire Europe.

@Marsa, i guess those are Dinaric Talibans i heard about Already in the 12th century,wow. They adopted preslavic/vlach way of life, mixed wit them, that's why you are all Vlachoslavs today

Ottoman invasion caused migrations and many Serbs from valleys and plains moved to mountains, migrated on Austrian and Venetians territories or converted to islam and stayed in the valleys/plains. In the mountains Serbs were pretty isolated from Ottomans, unlike in valleys/plains. When the Ottomans collapsed many Serbs came down from the mountains to plains and valleys from were their ancestors once escaped. For example Serbs from fertile basin Župa (http://vinozupa.com/en/company/history-of-zupa/) in central Serbia mostly came from nearby mountain Kopaonik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopaonik) in 19th century when Ottomans left that area. There was a research of y dna of Serbs from Župa area in 2014; I2a-Din is about Serbian average, R1a is higher than Serbian average, E-V13 is sbout average etc. Александровац етнички Срби 85 Тодоровић (2014) https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Генетс...је
Александровац is the center of Župa.

[Catnip]

Ottoman invasion caused migrations and many Serbs from valleys and plains moved to mountains, migrated on Austrian and Venetians territories or converted to islam and stayed in the valleys/plains. In the mountains Serbs were pretty isolated from Ottomans, unlike in valleys/plains. When the Ottomans collapsed many Serbs came down from the mountains to plains and valleys from were their ancestors once escaped. For example Serbs from fertile basin Župa (http://vinozupa.com/en/company/history-of-zupa/) in central Serbia mostly came from nearby mountain Kopaonik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopaonik) in 19th century when Ottomans left that area. There was a research of y dna of Serbs from Župa area in 2014; I2a-Din is about Serbian average, R1a is higher than Serbian average, E-V13 is sbout average etc. Александровац етнички Срби 85 Тодоровић (2014) https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Генетс...је
Александровац is the center of Župa.

OK thnx, that's what i meant actually. That many things occured during and after Ottoman empire, including re-settlings in mountain areas. Dinaric Alps werent thé first choice of 'Early Slavs'.

[Dušan]

New samples from Poreklo

Population
North_Atlantic 19.79 Pct
Baltic 31.3 Pct
West_Med 19.84 Pct
West_Asian 8.43 Pct
East_Med 16.61 Pct
Red_Sea 1.58 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.06 Pct
Siberian 0.98 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.41 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -


Population
North_Atlantic 23.48 Pct
Baltic 30.2 Pct
West_Med 16.81 Pct
West_Asian 7.22 Pct
East_Med 17.72 Pct
Red_Sea 3.64 Pct
South_Asian 0.27 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.67 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -