Southeast England was 80% replaced by Anglo-Saxons in the Early Middle Ages

[J. Ketch]

I think I can explain.

The place name research by Udolph (1994) strongly suggests that the Germanic migration to Britain was notably simpler than what is commonly taught. Saxons had migrated to England but mainly from the adjacent side of the English Channel. At that time (at abt. 450 AD) they had already lived there for centuries all the way from the Rhine mouth to Aremorica (the mainland part of the so called Litus saxonicus). Also, Flandres is shown as a main source of Germanic migration to England. It's a confusion to suppose Lower Saxony to be the direct source of Saxons migrating to England, though there likely was some migration as well.

Germanic Angles were distributed here and there in Germania, just f. i. they made up an important part of the new emerged Thuringian tribe. It's just Bede's good guess that they came from that small reggion called Anglia in Schleswig-Holstein. He had simply no clue and all people today just follow his (expressly) guess whithout own considerations. His guess might be true, but the Angles in question could as well have been in the Rhine mouth proximity.

Finally the Jutes. This is for sure a misstake to assume any notable migration from Jutland to England. There is absolutely no place name indication for that and also, the Germanic settlers in the areas that were settled by "Jutes", Kent and the Isle of Wight, do show the Germanic settlers with the biggest (!) influence by Romans in their material culture. Out of the three mentioned tribes Juteland-Jutes would, in contrast, be these Germanics with the least contact to Romans. But there was a small Germanic tribe called Eotas that had lived at the Rhine mouth. Maybe these Eotas once, centuries ago, had some connection to Jutland-Jutes, but this would be pure speculation based on the name. Also, it's close to absurd to think that the big Jutland peninsula should have got "emptied" by Jutes migrating to the "micro" territories of Kent and the Isle of Whight. So we can actually better ignore all these big arrows on history maps that fantasizes about the migrations of Jutes from Jutland, Angles from that small Anglia region and Saxons from Lower Saxony to the British Isles.

The mentioned by me Germanics simply crossed the English channel and the connection was the strongest where there was the shortest distance. Still in the 9th century the Pas de Calais was Flemish settled (the inhabitants later became Frenchicised) so you had something like a pretty direct Germanic language contact. Between Kalen (Calais) and Dover you have just 32 kilometers of water. Of course these Germanics that had lived in Northern France for centuries as Germanics had picked up some "France_IA" DNA.

Now, this huge migration coincides with the Frankish advance to the sea. So obviously all that today tribal Lower Franks in Netherlands and Flandres were no Franks or not yet there at that time. So these areas will have been inhabited by Saxons, Eotas and maybe even Angles. Remaining folks were tribally Frankicised and Franks did immigrate to there. Maybe the Saxons were fleeing the Franks, maybe Franks were pulled to advance in that direction after many Saxons had left and maybe it was all together a combination of various push and pull factors, on the mainland and on the British Isles.

Just as an example here is a distribution map for the place name stem "wik". Hundreds of place name stems have been examined and mapped by Udolph. This one obviously concerns England.

It's a compelling theory for the bulk of the Anglo-Saxon migration for sure, one I'm inclined to believe given England's particular affinity to the Low Countries, and would make more sense of this Gaulish component somehow making its way to England at that time in large numbers. However the coming paper will supposedly confirm the traditional origin story if I understand correctly, but how they're able to distinguish direct from indirect ancestry I don't know, so again we'll have to wait and see.

[billErobreren]

What is absolutely fascinating about this IA_France is when it spread? Could it be Norman related? The Normans weren't just from Normandy but Flemish and Bretons also. Is this mixture something more Southern?

Just getting impatient for the paper to be published.

Don't remember much, but Bretons are still rather near Welsh and Cornish genetically still, aren't they? We'll drop them from the suspect list if so.

To me, it's plausible, but not all the way satisfactory, it might even predate their settlement. They conquered what was arguably the most prosperous and centralised kingdom in Western Europe and though I can see that they brought in peasantry and staff, they had no hangups about just being their elites and couldn't have had that dramatic an effect on what was established in Southeast England in dates prior. They couldn't have it was well populated even after. I'm more in agreement with Creoda, the Romans even struggled to define the Belgae as full blown Gaulish or German or a harmonious blend of the 2, add the flood of Franks to follow and their inevitable interaction with Saxons as continental neighbors or with their offshoots across the strait of Dover, some pre-1066 intermingling had to have been inevitable. Think I also remember reading at some point that some Romans interacted with Gauls settled in today's Kent, it made it clear those weren't Britons. It's fun to ponder about, not going to lie.

[Purple Panther]

It seems like common sense that there was a lot of back and forth between people in the far western reaches of Europe and people in the far eastern reaches of England in much the same way that there was between eastern Ulster and western Scotland. This pattern likely was established long before Caesar was a gleam in his dad's eye. There were far fewer people back then, so the population impact wasn't as great as it was during the population changes after Rome withdrew from Great Britain. It's difficult to imagine that all groups stayed in their respective 'hoods for centuries.

[J.S.]

Don't remember much, but Bretons are still rather near Welsh and Cornish genetically still, aren't they? We'll drop them from the suspect list if so.

Genetic population structure across Brittany and the downstream Loire basin provides new insights on the demographic history of Western Europe
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...02.03.478491v1

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Thanks to Tomenable for sharing this.

Eurogenes K36

Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9),0.85,0,0.07,1.07,0.3 2,7.83,0.49,0,2.07,0.01,5.84,0,2.73,16.74,6.46,7.1 3,0.07,2.46,0.06,0.11,0.1,15.7,0.92,24.27,0.08,0.3 6,0.18,0.02,0,0.71,1.04,0.32,1.35,0.17,0.24,0.22

Distance to:	Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9)
5.16040696	Norwegian
5.64424486	Swedish
5.83656577	SWE_Scania(n=4)
6.12784628	SWE_Blekinge(n=1)
6.14096084	German_Lower_Saxony_North
6.17315964	Icelandic
6.33480071	NOR_Vestfold(n=1)
6.43373919	Dutch_North
6.50136909	NED_Friesland(n=12)
6.50935481	Danish
7.01483428	Pallantides(Nor)
7.32035518	NED_North-Holland(n=5)
7.56989432	Erik-Jon(ISL)
7.65035947	German_Frisian
7.67246375	German_Schleswig-Holstein
7.90708543	NOR_Møre-og-Romsdal(n=1)
8.27561478	SWE_Kalmar(n=2)
8.34419559	NOR_Hordaland(n=1)
8.72551431	Swedish
8.83229302	German_Westphalia
8.96441298	Folcwalding(NL)
9.03474405	Faroese
9.06740316	NOR_Ostfold(n=1)
9.15063386	Wulf_Talented(Eng)
9.30488044	SWE_Halland(n=1)
9.44748115	German_Northwest
9.60411370	Dutch_Central
9.62084196	Alessio_mother(NL)
9.86364030	Dutch

Simulated Global25

Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9),0.12173481306600024,0.11 9950954945,0.06432364838819997,0.05798710259500028 4,0.036559387619600016,0.020461080576300004,0.0029 15921834000078,0.0045531788209999795,0.00394644869 399991,-0.005966049652000195,-0.0049563032577079995,0.00370827706899998,-0.008196496994999997,-0.011651359720999621,0.021477940889000086,0.006969 928439999922,-0.008423050380999943,0.0015183179070003454,0.00118 43538469999946,0.0030977631525999937,0.00584050765 2000011,0.0038524799900000488,0.000255460937999976 73,0.014088318122999996,0.00012400465399981225

Distance to:	Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9)
0.01307145	VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA
0.01539575	VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.01574091	VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
0.01604577	NLD_MBA
0.01615185	VK2020_NOR_South_VA
0.01635646	England_MBA
0.01658696	Norwegian
0.01724760	VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.01774786	VK2020_NOR_North_VA
0.01821442	England_CA_EBA
0.01884255	England_C_EBA
0.01885356	VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.01920913	VK2020_GreenlandE_VA

[Token]

Thanks to Tomenable for sharing this.

Eurogenes K36

Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9),0.85,0,0.07,1.07,0.3 2,7.83,0.49,0,2.07,0.01,5.84,0,2.73,16.74,6.46,7.1 3,0.07,2.46,0.06,0.11,0.1,15.7,0.92,24.27,0.08,0.3 6,0.18,0.02,0,0.71,1.04,0.32,1.35,0.17,0.24,0.22

Distance to:	Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9)
5.16040696	Norwegian
5.64424486	Swedish
5.83656577	SWE_Scania(n=4)
6.12784628	SWE_Blekinge(n=1)
6.14096084	German_Lower_Saxony_North
6.17315964	Icelandic
6.33480071	NOR_Vestfold(n=1)
6.43373919	Dutch_North
6.50136909	NED_Friesland(n=12)
6.50935481	Danish
7.01483428	Pallantides(Nor)
7.32035518	NED_North-Holland(n=5)
7.56989432	Erik-Jon(ISL)
7.65035947	German_Frisian
7.67246375	German_Schleswig-Holstein
7.90708543	NOR_Møre-og-Romsdal(n=1)
8.27561478	SWE_Kalmar(n=2)
8.34419559	NOR_Hordaland(n=1)
8.72551431	Swedish
8.83229302	German_Westphalia
8.96441298	Folcwalding(NL)
9.03474405	Faroese
9.06740316	NOR_Ostfold(n=1)
9.15063386	Wulf_Talented(Eng)
9.30488044	SWE_Halland(n=1)
9.44748115	German_Northwest
9.60411370	Dutch_Central
9.62084196	Alessio_mother(NL)
9.86364030	Dutch

Simulated Global25

Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9),0.12173481306600024,0.11 9950954945,0.06432364838819997,0.05798710259500028 4,0.036559387619600016,0.020461080576300004,0.0029 15921834000078,0.0045531788209999795,0.00394644869 399991,-0.005966049652000195,-0.0049563032577079995,0.00370827706899998,-0.008196496994999997,-0.011651359720999621,0.021477940889000086,0.006969 928439999922,-0.008423050380999943,0.0015183179070003454,0.00118 43538469999946,0.0030977631525999937,0.00584050765 2000011,0.0038524799900000488,0.000255460937999976 73,0.014088318122999996,0.00012400465399981225

Distance to:	Mecklenburg_AD_200-400_(N=9)
0.01307145	VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA
0.01539575	VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.01574091	VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
0.01604577	NLD_MBA
0.01615185	VK2020_NOR_South_VA
0.01635646	England_MBA
0.01658696	Norwegian
0.01724760	VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.01774786	VK2020_NOR_North_VA
0.01821442	England_CA_EBA
0.01884255	England_C_EBA
0.01885356	VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.01920913	VK2020_GreenlandE_VA

WOW, from which paper does this come from? The Anglo-Saxon one?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

WOW, from which paper does this come from? The Anglo-Saxon one?

Yes, from this page onward they are sharing several Eurogenes K36 results for various samples from that paper.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-period/page98

Mecklenburg samples are from this site:

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Eurogenes K36 results shared so far

Denmark_Zealand_Sct._Clements_Copenhagen:KPN005,0.22,0,0,0,1.35,11.34,0,0,0,0,8.49,0,6.68,15.07,8.37,11.09,0,4.61,0,0,0,16.23,0,14.47,0,0.33,0,0,0,0.21,0,0,1.53,0,0,0
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Drantum:DRU015,0,0.5,0,1.42,0.91,7.59,0,0,1.58,1.14,4.27,0,4.64,18.06,7.94,4.7,0.21,7.25,0,0,0,10.28,4.77,19.79,0,1.28,0,0.12,0,0,1.46,0.37,0,0.26,0,1.45
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN001,0.12,0.68,0.71,1.25,0,4.95,0,0,2.41,0,2.04,0.67,5.1,7.42,9.8,15.68,0,10.02,0,1.15,0,10.25,7.52,15.2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.31,0,1.03,0,2.04,1.67
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN002,0.41,0,0,0.79,0,10.52,0,0,0.77,0,4.51,0,3.78,12.48,2.56,15.17,0,1,0,0,0.36,16.51,3.35,23.9,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.49,0,0.38,0,0,0
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN003,0.06,0,0,0,0,8.89,0,0,6.35,0,1.54,0,4.55,15.76,4.37,10.84,0,8.67,0,0,0,13.49,0.37,23.91,0,0,0.6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.62,0,0
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN004,0,0,0,0.39,0,12.73,0,0,2.69,0,10.78,0,4.1,12.73,5.62,4.27,0,4.18,0,0,1.22,18.01,3.9,19.09,0,0,0,0,0,0.08,0.21,0,0,0,0,0
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN005,0,0.14,0,2.17,0,6.29,0,0,1.44,0,4.36,0,1.33,14.43,10.1,12.18,0,8.55,0,0,0.91,13.47,3.01,18.94,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.67
Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Haeven:HVN001,1.94,0,0,0.7,0,4.37,2.95,0,0,0,12.49,0,0,14.49,4.7,4.97,0,13.83,0,0,0,17.2,0,20.09,0,0.56,0,0,0,0,0.55,0,0.67,0.48,0,0
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND009,0.05,8.12,5.59,2.4,0,0,0,0,0.52,0,0,14.71,0,0,4.75,9.41,0,24.86,1.22,7.88,2.16,0,1.02,0,0.14,0.35,0,0.03,0,0,0,0,0,0,9.33,7.47
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND010,1.61,2.93,2.21,0.71,0,1.95,0,0,0.7,0,9.58,0,5.33,5.62,4.05,1.5,0,18.03,0,0.35,0,7.62,14.57,11.53,0,0.32,0,0,1.17,0,2.77,0,4.6,1.39,0,1.47
Germany_Schleswig-Holstein_Schleswig_Rathausmarkt:SWG008,0.03,0,0.15,0.78,0,5.49,0,0,0,0,8.06,0,3.18,9.14,10.91,11.57,0,0.35,0,0,0,19.39,5.28,24.68,0,0.03,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.52,0.46,0,0
Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KIL025,0.97,0,0,3.67,0.51,3.88,0,0,0,0,5.45,0,5.91,10.74,8.79,15.16,0,1.27,0,0,0,15.98,0,21.96,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.33,0,1.32,0,0,4.06
Netherlands_Friesland_Midlum:MDM003,0,0,0,0,0,7.74,0,0,0,0,9.68,0,0,8.93,7.35,15.35,0,2.29,0,0,0,16.99,0,26.1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5.57,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO001,0,0,0,2.77,0,11.30,0,0,2.32,0,1.90,0,6.79,9.93,13.93,7.29,0,2.94,0,0,0,14.42,0,26.41,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO002,0,0,0,2.28,0,8.11,0,0,0,0,1.94,0,9.00,14.59,12.33,6.38,0,0,0,0,0,15.74,0,28.99,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.64,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO004,0.20,0,0,3.73,0,16.55,0,0,4.55,0,1.46,0,0,13.50,0,14.70,0,4.60,0,0,0,11.92,6.42,19.72,0,0.40,0,0,0,0,1.28,0,0.95,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO005,0.17,0,0,1.73,0,4.04,0,0,0,0,7.82,0,2.49,17.92,9.10,10.79,0,7.47,0,0,0,12.77,2.93,22.77,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO006,0,0,0,0,0,4.20,0.65,0,2.43,0,0.55,0,8.90,1.86,4.38,17.87,0,12.17,0,3.11,0,18.64,4.31,17.61,0,0.08,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.24
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO007,0,0,0,4.52,0,3.04,0,0,5.48,0,2.66,0,6.62,11.35,5.94,5.71,0,6.09,0,0,0,20.68,0,25.08,0,0.08,0,0,0,0,2.75,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO008,0,0,0.06,1.10,0,11.53,0,0,0,0,8.50,0,8.05,13.57,8.21,5.99,0,5.95,0,0,0,15.73,0,21.30,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO010,0,0,0,5.60,0,5.00,0,0,1.40,0,7.35,0,4.57,10.49,2.36,13.55,0,5.78,0,0,0,16.13,0,22.86,0,0.04,0.62,0,0,0,1.38,0,2.43,0,0,0.45
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO012,0,0,0,1.04,0,7.92,0,0,4.30,0,4.09,1.27,4.46,10.87,6.78,9.94,0,10.54,0,0,0,20.62,1.50,14.71,0,0.04,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.93,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO013,0,0,0,3.57,0,6.07,0,0,3.75,0,0.28,0,4.15,16.65,6.23,6.50,0,7.91,0,0,0,20.64,2.42,21.28,0,0,0.55,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO014,0,0,0,4.81,0,7.30,0,0,0,0,4.60,0,2.88,16.96,6.53,0,0,10.02,0,0,0.17,17.77,3.51,23.98,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.46,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO015,0,0,0,0,0,6.17,0,0,0,0,12.43,0,3.86,15.96,8.23,8.65,0,10.49,0,0,0,12.77,5.08,15.75,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.61
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO016,0,0,0,3.23,0,4.76,0,0,1.96,0,5.85,0,7.07,14.21,9.26,12.55,0,7.26,0,0,0,16.91,0,15.11,0,0,0,0.98,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.86
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO017,0,0,0,1.28,0,11.18,0,0,2.91,0,4.28,0,5.48,12.25,8.24,7.35,0,0.71,0,0,0,17.27,2.60,23.99,0,0.39,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.02,0,2.05
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO019,0,0,0,3.85,0,4.48,0,0,0,0,3.57,0,5.87,17.13,9.68,7.59,0,0,0,0,0,18.62,0,26.67,0,0.23,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.31
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO020,0.05,0,0,4.21,0,12.11,0,0,0.49,0,0.48,0,10.83,9.65,5.18,4.44,0,14.24,0,0,0,15.18,6.02,16.77,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.33,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO021,0,0,0,0,0,0.34,0,0,1.28,0,4.78,0,6.22,25.48,9.27,0.21,0,0.22,0,0,0,19.24,0.91,29.02,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.04,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO021,0,0,0,0,0,0.34,0,0,1.46,0,4.66,0,6.21,25.61,9.26,0.11,0,0.34,0,0,0,19.16,0.56,29.19,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.09,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO023,0,0,0,1.42,0,2.88,0,0,1.68,0,7.80,0,1.70,9.21,5.24,16.36,0,11.65,0,0,0,9.40,3.97,24.19,0,0,0,0,0,1.21,3.28,0,0,0,0,0
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO024,0,0,0,3.49,0,7.74,0,0,1.58,0,2.41,0,4.95,6.91,7.17,12.93,0,11.19,0,0,0,16.02,2.23,15.09,0,0,0,0.76,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.99,5.54
United_Kingdom_Cornwall_Bude_Widemouth_Bay:S16383,0.31,0,0,0,0.35,11.32,0,0,6.28,0,7.04,0,3.03,17.11,3.51,10.65,0,8.45,0.38,0,0,14.07,0,17.23,0,0,0.27,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
United_Kingdom_Cornwall_Newquay_Crantock:S16389,0.6,0,0,0.3,0,0,0,0,0,0,6.51,0,9.46,6.75,8.67,15.47,0,2.98,0,0,0,23.88,5.36,17.83,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.18
United_Kingdom_Kent_Eastry_Updown:EAS006,0.38,0,0,4.14,0,7.76,0,0.64,6.39,0,8.02,0,0,10.62,5.8,5.45,0,11.51,0.69,0,0,12.71,3.3,21.67,0,0,0,0.63,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.07,0.22
United_Kingdom_Yorkshire_Ribblesdale_Selside_Grike:S3056,0,0.04,3.01,5.9,0,9.18,0,0,0.32,0,2.61,6.29,0,10.2,8.41,15.69,0,24.84,2.92,0.42,0,3.89,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.19,0,5.09

Simulated Global25

Denmark_Zealand_Sct._Clements_Copenhagen:KPN005,0.12126734230100009,0.126400310746,0.06815406451239998,0.05673061660299984,0.03967934969200001,0.01941477885198,0.004841459072000034,0.008676341479000042,0.006726588121000018,-0.006957285094000046,-0.00457276917922,0.0015010473879999674,-0.005575341534999989,-0.006271501663999878,0.014986400522000039,0.006137275322000008,-0.005582998214000014,0.00034287060499990987,0.0015085740290000126,0.002808230159000003,0.004789307143000129,0.0022120296140001276,0.0005955963029999709,0.011024244068999982,0.0003690130449999912
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Drantum:DRU015,0.11712513177599998,0.11251144338699999,0.05608865255919999,0.04885193702199954,0.03541336137400001,0.01187899688308,0.005877883738000023,0.007306278536000134,0.0014843286339999966,-0.004765883362000258,-0.006027057867908001,0.0037584834319999644,-0.008257386306000017,-0.006697537040999419,0.01680554183899992,0.007122593042000101,-0.004858203490999965,0.0016554391979998646,0.002727096566999976,0.004726395787999993,0.0036339938510003902,0.0029147303849999945,0.001271752406999989,0.012229701519999981,0.0008064481799994888
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN001,0.12704971217800004,0.133915554087,0.046641851359800014,0.026765983198999893,0.029246860448399997,0.010309248169099991,0.0036967839989999066,0.004035852236000068,0.00043457998200001693,0.0038866707529996887,-0.002653288927647999,0.005555947531999959,-0.012194619351000014,-0.014132430844999058,0.014705207066999872,0.00224635187400013,-0.004136406957999935,0.0005904479669999307,0.00014909206400000536,0.0032460015431999955,0.0035565058080005325,0.004026315233999999,0.00015582989100002605,0.009118560162000012,-0.0011413168490000403
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN002,0.12820009892500023,0.128329021831,0.059795126406799994,0.053061987312000014,0.0339117268504,0.02147543287056001,0.0032453854449999396,0.0043440808199999015,0.00268365287099993,-0.003403274468999921,-0.0064123042420999995,0.004541485132999961,-0.010065535607999998,-0.011769308505000083,0.025976017332999986,0.009407368372000085,-0.009066188850000064,0.0010798513990001217,0.0008293166959999447,0.0037774587469999923,0.0065773041420005614,0.001670961139999969,0.0007140875429999716,0.01293651960699998,0.0006821236520000388
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN003,0.12442546752500008,0.132700772535,0.06355083242640003,0.04644717060699981,0.038544572108999996,0.017039489083239996,0.004786563446999976,0.006281439778000044,0.00494511044800005,-0.000016382599999842894,-0.004462400734768,0.0044160609679999956,-0.009267013831000018,-0.010420216571999433,0.01741652652599999,0.0067511588370001135,-0.005277106244000124,0.0020396966740000707,0.004184332388000002,0.003225090535999997,0.002974708926000099,0.00388572517400005,0.002350245193999968,0.015363155904999985,-0.0007227590640000725
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN004,0.13111733144600007,0.13372766340400002,0.06435329387519999,0.05357680716499989,0.0393091611438,0.022163363218560005,0.005691258676000011,0.007494390438000158,0.0002897859189997698,-0.007853019753000325,-0.00720428398542,0.0019398057729999442,-0.005589946947000005,0.0016133396690005972,0.01796514975500009,0.0063379338110000905,-0.005716760856000212,0.0012871606629999955,0.0026396691080000263,0.004725475968,0.0034386092659997925,-0.0010642881480002375,0.002865737652999995,0.014713081340000017,-0.00007166774000014718
Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN005,0.12923894661099994,0.137377576818,0.06071238271780004,0.03919227727300007,0.041026459705000004,0.015029370902619998,0.003631320748999958,0.005809442037000179,0.007658648047000106,0.007317829461000062,-0.0047351286865439995,0.005971864973999989,-0.013167418762999991,-0.01090836685200005,0.01994029806800007,0.00580483960500006,-0.006572865332999962,0.0013242877209998574,0.001597964419000007,0.0034506611908000006,0.005327879599999821,0.001584209897000019,0.000457280155999956,0.011759264873000021,0.0006659498789998372
Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Haeven:HVN001,0.10967172907500004,0.124498643377,0.0627730539546,0.05187911384199991,0.03831339362359999,0.016416162177599995,-0.0016872500639999622,-0.000375177967999938,0.005592179462999963,-0.004923355287999881,-0.005403114185659999,0.0034603751570000114,-0.008441245437999997,-0.0018519704459999085,0.016287131791999983,0.0026845542350000164,-0.009110256671000013,0.0010952553400000783,0.0037923582670000133,0.00017864901400000685,0.003599829932999933,0.0010735929249999334,0.0009311337949999927,0.012201788981000043,0.0005393443939995576
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND009,0.10363502073000004,0.14205742519,-0.017762848254999988,-0.05652852036000018,0.014224822351999997,-0.021834529696000003,-0.0012236656149999872,-0.0032041496689999838,0.007899831834000129,0.025457043917000252,0.005245050062511998,0.003197305733999959,-0.005275135931999992,-0.0017417438739998348,-0.008613251722000073,-0.003673811377000076,0.0024121821140000582,0.0006536291829999652,0.0013943595279999818,0.0006175534055999996,0.0012496697269999135,0.0026427517660000746,-0.001964818768999999,-0.004566381558000047,-0.001969338779999788
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND010,0.11240404993500022,0.10841151263000001,0.0389532564354,0.028115621314999794,0.010836386836000016,0.007959278031620002,0.0009019832429999972,-0.00004432735900014931,-0.012194488877999777,-0.01244302215799981,0.0029091115067719996,0.0003488331690000108,0.0014109630809999816,-0.010893997979999952,0.002022720554000046,-0.002900364757999799,-0.004053742994999953,-0.0007479622069999654,-0.002118695113999986,-0.0020352907259000045,-0.002862233591000081,0.007098542613999939,0.00029458009599998836,0.007855569989999929,-0.004721629953999929
Germany_Schleswig-Holstein_Schleswig_Rathausmarkt:SWG008,0.12823085630900005,0.13577134812199998,0.0643822047362,0.05388132985699992,0.03893340346860002,0.022205784311939994,0.004011313696999997,0.006540590820000042,0.00016372220400002156,-0.0034600088839999493,-0.006492916829072001,0.005205403540999961,-0.012468482052000015,-0.012262408265000049,0.028834180649000066,0.006574885676000004,-0.011579094017999853,0.0014668017659999638,0.0003913426949999516,0.005119250419999985,0.0073141118989997625,0.0018181170620000138,-0.0001730269520000263,0.015119318426999987,0.000520813462999821
Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KIL025,0.12689175063100003,0.13106914019399998,0.06837867144880001,0.04927903372399969,0.04210747804560001,0.018024170981780004,0.0004616361519999522,0.0037657167070001343,0.010188795364999871,0.00510559793499997,-0.0041891195376799984,0.005500149524000025,-0.011887202709000004,-0.016166172905999837,0.022217559757000127,0.00545694328299999,-0.009634116405999912,0.0010874596929999966,-0.00040137869200001543,0.0017872694140000172,0.00681613032200061,0.0033965496880000758,-0.0018558466130000166,0.008042290069999984,0.0008046962809998073
Netherlands_Friesland_Midlum:MDM003,0.1315760736740002,0.132922857899,0.0706281081482,0.05623030537399987,0.0394553597246,0.02106627197514,0.006292402042000048,0.008699859776000032,0.005278815012000129,-0.0029049735999999438,-0.0027911507812999987,0.003742622801999995,-0.00709225294200002,-0.023566101759999597,0.021839127391999898,0.004489342904000063,-0.010733138876000033,0.00026510248200003333,-0.0045165203990000045,-0.0006263547360000083,0.005672439343999955,0.007495902227999965,-0.004376450095999972,0.01248172984399994,-0.002063629240000059
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO001,0.13312497123000003,0.13571030878,0.067056533294,0.051814147629999696,0.042290760559,0.020203081253019995,0.004390490530000041,0.006522507590000032,0.005490216440000029,0.001050902300000045,-0.00690033092612,0.005798877529999968,-0.012522602000000032,-0.013226046099999555,0.02482535807000011,0.010906682780000093,-0.006238318480000005,0.0028251554700000625,0.0036438832200000257,0.005383273252,0.007005544079999926,0.0029070102699999267,0.0004244499600000104,0.01711409928000006,0.0005944881000000679
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO002,0.13284431964700014,0.130969344005,0.0715444116146,0.06134260440699988,0.04030252990300001,0.02346762738233999,0.004820282915000011,0.007776576179999871,0.003963358778000082,-0.004337348669999951,-0.00569824215724,0.005093660808000047,-0.011147577914999986,-0.015883200637999945,0.028525969243999978,0.010773655295000075,-0.009615125204000076,0.0025054971819999166,0.0025808004139999652,0.006075705053999992,0.008437062640000126,0.003739994913999921,0.0007626559299999888,0.01659570407699996,0.00132049881799998
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO004,0.12965187628700006,0.129091294236,0.05503918619900001,0.04165340586700007,0.034678475378,0.014052984424319999,0.004599874469000058,0.003877728831999966,0.0028343600299998977,0.000904547490000145,-0.006634765233568001,0.005539591999999989,-0.010644673518999961,-0.010118111065999316,0.018819466591999862,0.00843583403300006,-0.0028116862499999364,0.0013124574379998252,0.0010288829349999868,0.004244227729999989,0.0043021702480000035,0.0039220338439999725,0.00010614994800002163,0.01395169789700003,-0.0017698156939999973
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO005,0.13130795800399986,0.13332893857800002,0.0666726425596,0.051973212304000094,0.03996287662100001,0.01977612977111999,0.004325288992000076,0.006234280136000053,0.0037874549519998912,-0.0011869883000001358,-0.004772893216592,0.004398207581999991,-0.010145043632000018,-0.008393599259999718,0.021848970532000134,0.005988040644000103,-0.00886159114600013,0.0014519018720000054,0.0020008690659999925,0.004841935673999997,0.006295908723999877,0.0019231765580000615,0.0012126987739999456,0.01202804454399993,0.0012020937599999115
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO006,0.1234040018400002,0.139312769208,0.04974581296340001,0.02726176459600032,0.034666349673,0.010404660640040003,0.0022398498040000145,0.0039076389520000775,0.006266742475999787,0.008068420569000152,-0.0033698983908839997,0.0067268669749999625,-0.014167826513000038,-0.014816570890999567,0.017689848825999964,0.0020875138950000073,-0.007808096994999923,0.0005666975120000202,0.0019134583479999646,0.00016599669999999792,0.0027919581790002007,0.003171086583000124,0.0011411314250000136,0.01151991130499997,-0.0007452127979998141
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO007,0.1321577834110001,0.132236975615,0.06178435091439999,0.05239394920799989,0.03747933358399999,0.02055653631048,0.004762398847000026,0.006312508523999921,0.002644314200999958,-0.0007240767189998117,-0.004649503349879999,0.00526902617300002,-0.011269450650000012,-0.013004679538999336,0.023495814536999834,0.006140610872000064,-0.01222403360400017,0.002858513674999865,0.003555545214000006,0.0009603588649999971,0.0040798861780000015,0.00363778650399995,0.001293597823000002,0.015120578429000026,0.0001705671200001868
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO008,0.13324691428700006,0.13342843407700003,0.06997387834980003,0.05734304084299996,0.042048577181999995,0.022383547805380006,0.005496544464999989,0.008029817554000063,0.0038341408159998924,-0.00543905786200008,-0.00624275651202,0.0024447491859999615,-0.00643401388699999,-0.002876344597999736,0.01869864360200002,0.007907884501000079,-0.006003180110000228,0.0018277103200001754,0.003732614856000009,0.004624050023000002,0.005460915980000258,0.0008308878820000032,0.0020767035879999535,0.013583080990999974,0.0007745753439998837
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO010,0.12803390235800002,0.13235708977100002,0.06538401955300002,0.05102001878400002,0.03971648428639999,0.018935003777879995,0.005216495804000012,0.007074635906000025,0.007161360281999761,0.00008910428800013113,-0.0036914789171999993,0.004159089378000012,-0.007907814602999984,-0.014991075017999511,0.020155959561999837,0.0036156336920000116,-0.010266887583999944,0.001478120531999809,-0.0008501318110000005,-0.00001820858099999803,0.004466010060000153,0.005090752921999911,-0.001472318749999953,0.00900584433200001,-0.0010649536440000091
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO012,0.13171913770800006,0.13659524954000002,0.056715837150000004,0.04014874034399963,0.03705798964999999,0.015981803379719998,0.004807413766,0.005943734672000128,0.002184566007999926,0.0016496193280000314,-0.004688322288220001,0.004502333734000029,-0.011915967388000024,-0.00687506293199968,0.016659887026000023,0.00285619346600003,-0.007374157952000009,0.0018857358999999126,0.003405606021999981,0.0023712798912000023,0.0034405038040003152,0.0024156529919999014,0.0014873451740000003,0.013966096172000064,-0.0005763066400003639
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO013,0.13015744165700016,0.13253313581900003,0.06425043836300001,0.048695595407000025,0.037683056181000006,0.018548658555640005,0.005075647511000025,0.006062316078000198,0.0035347800160000515,-0.00042022355000008015,-0.004093067723368,0.005868134265999988,-0.013154141021000022,-0.014418328329999527,0.023729719276000094,0.00523246885700014,-0.010315995878000042,0.002688395786000099,0.0028720105979999693,0.0031016047259999984,0.004943850292000248,0.0052032063140000405,0.0010535918919999797,0.01764422663700005,-0.0005638916699999188
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO014,0.13276819171800017,0.131979855537,0.063280230284,0.05292371580199978,0.036747759931000004,0.02108017854081999,0.005274595762000009,0.006261986951,0.00007349602500004646,-0.0034839313829999226,-0.005436501313404,0.005821535644000028,-0.011654483512999997,-0.010001131776000018,0.024250626805999796,0.006444210398000168,-0.010436446758999934,0.002665284938999984,0.003168692621,0.0034558352550000063,0.005530976928000211,0.0037230754009998975,0.001095452479999961,0.017266106772000012,-0.00021931700499988258
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO015,0.13131397311699997,0.13367797853900001,0.0634283334556,0.04913245701699985,0.038484745725000005,0.019432774915020004,0.005634641751000011,0.0074176179379999985,0.0008073610459999967,-0.004891510159999978,-0.004858595371231999,0.0019854985759999713,-0.006181153873999988,0.0010891742700004665,0.01405852935599999,0.0036354335070001124,-0.005642818568000047,0.0007945991560001095,0.002734738667999983,0.003924514556000004,0.003424911552000403,-0.0005281706759999094,0.0026123569219999596,0.009817888767,0.0007309702299997337
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO016,0.12396622242799998,0.133695071494,0.06659367181880001,0.04865930877599983,0.041842086485,0.018033807444060003,0.007775461386000003,0.005009828266000081,0.007489263203999957,0.0027303162139999237,-0.0037124404976999997,0.002330791558000018,-0.009644349534000004,-0.007814023309999779,0.01761966802200015,0.0042562063800000325,-0.007728223155999952,0.006685061649999975,0.0008543914479999795,0.0027001588039999988,0.0038547576440001955,0.0017851107120000478,0.0012770364479999714,0.00977836887400001,0.0008621206900001066
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO017,0.13238744970500002,0.13307558746899997,0.06526883251560003,0.05324858410299983,0.04145139595799999,0.019086036774719994,0.004923594079000012,0.006897630488000028,0.003250952186999792,-0.0018311489020000592,-0.006754863035739999,0.004808600353000012,-0.010768953967000016,-0.009109521978999773,0.022982536898000186,0.008627629845000151,-0.0067033465739999906,0.0021276480350001254,0.002686647737999936,0.004951550998,0.005891683047000093,0.0021051894500002024,0.0008479096650000099,0.015483752263999905,0.00016343004600001196
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO019,0.13298569681500008,0.132767857913,0.07208694090359999,0.05904907714699997,0.04387098194900001,0.021227450373320002,0.004398399448999965,0.0078057114700000214,0.006563082093000057,0.0002800467760000168,-0.005055038215219999,0.005727580504999955,-0.012592778434999993,-0.015381025169000292,0.028436477744000186,0.007896677790999972,-0.011993911980000117,0.002412695617000065,0.0015028114999999743,0.0047915247580000014,0.008531252636999956,0.0037005719320000394,-0.00027861337300002457,0.014002751128000037,0.001377600979999942
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO020,0.13196580621100013,0.130683098796,0.058594674262600004,0.04195693851099997,0.032733892936400014,0.01591096190678,0.004926690443000042,0.005408101264000065,-0.00032001348199987715,-0.0028189552500000707,-0.004143787006127999,0.005061680707999991,-0.01000830107300003,-0.009690925889999423,0.015510167047999998,0.004425560281000072,-0.004088389563999902,0.001568790158000155,0.0031401676289999716,0.0032641113599999965,0.002852648216000172,0.00491540526200008,0.002290966566000038,0.015634850841000004,-0.0018344232099998291
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO021,0.13234874207500003,0.12331813990100002,0.07245684900560001,0.07157567770999984,0.03462576310700002,0.027649588925859996,0.006667292829000039,0.009455615942000055,-0.0014742499729999484,-0.012975895544999935,-0.0030912918132039997,0.0030569065769999963,-0.00777585951399998,-0.014021617272999401,0.02816610185300006,0.008414582498000086,-0.014790844815999987,0.0023355374110001423,0.002760201895999976,0.004135646986999996,0.007053201198000153,0.0037070135499999712,0.0022754819929999715,0.016584838064999986,0.002213223027999721
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO021,0.13252816283000005,0.123348571566,0.0723022090776,0.07177761169,0.034470172642999994,0.027667886912439998,0.006600587654000029,0.009577640611999904,-0.0019312761479999899,-0.013396890420000002,-0.0031239236494439997,0.00300048616199999,-0.007805946134000003,-0.01435544678799966,0.028505200177999995,0.008192036228000178,-0.015019194385999902,0.002453672386000111,0.0026790901860000178,0.0042367527570000086,0.006775565168000507,0.0038317029899999112,0.002221503107999947,0.016635376960000003,0.0019052420679997115
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO023,0.12669392586000008,0.133048892149,0.0498570836914,0.041772838879999954,0.03385342073760001,0.017508047817699993,0.0037803014380000683,0.0044299772340001785,0.004097646184000138,0.004105772759999807,-0.005540685627167997,0.005609278663999982,-0.011130852747999975,-0.008303763615999521,0.019246412706000048,0.005497188535999984,-0.00765512206200003,0.0009336011220001487,0.0022114695519999733,0.0020238238839999953,0.004246141176000126,0.0007624903300000076,0.0014416781359999726,0.009131004289999897,0.0008609520759998157
Netherlands_Groningen:GRO024,0.12482376799800027,0.14035208624200002,0.05425945877740002,0.02947145087400005,0.040390530351000015,0.011588399546319994,0.005736424408000054,0.0027164970900001445,0.007677930104000183,0.013045283447999982,-0.004818679135432001,0.006776644391999969,-0.016203865754000013,-0.01049932609999965,0.0159815341699999,0.0021958691720001186,-0.0046082054200001984,0.005393571616000084,0.0007818962239999547,0.0016497015425999918,0.003999155800000362,0.002317249468000014,-0.00040954234200000876,0.008657103399999984,-0.0005752955400001175
United_Kingdom_Cornwall_Bude_Widemouth_Bay:S16383,0.12799781162600013,0.130015385803,0.06448923566800001,0.04769096793199984,0.041035875013,0.01820481222971999,0.004800410216999954,0.005971931505000029,0.005900802101999947,-0.002083143206000291,-0.0049304695152000005,0.0021356261989999917,-0.006014026436999982,-0.0004589317009996985,0.011962468437999956,0.00618699149700002,-0.003459049794000036,0.00160928907999998,0.004563336297999993,0.0028805962030000036,0.0020973979720000473,0.0008749554020000445,0.0025860162079999797,0.012367046699000024,-0.00033719905900041116
United_Kingdom_Cornwall_Newquay_Crantock:S16389,0.12991412190000007,0.13325602331000003,0.06317750142920002,0.04871750619999978,0.036892169214,0.019745876323479995,0.0016222557900000033,0.004110115340000033,0.0021955396000000633,-0.0008283974799998123,-0.003922518532104,0.004598077580000035,-0.012612374183999976,-0.012019569399999791,0.024640075120000007,0.0021290539700001,-0.012960529080000047,0.0005798571999999537,0.00007067070999994523,0.002828426994000004,0.005978205700000225,0.0014813493599999082,0.0009469699999999862,0.010923882090000003,0.0011901130000001245
United_Kingdom_Kent_Eastry_Updown:EAS006,0.12617759767099995,0.12956054267800002,0.05752897582380001,0.03965245352999986,0.040983910169,0.01674294566195999,0.0059018147210000245,0.0015464881000001878,0.002228790895000028,0.002803550381999886,-0.00626710646822,0.004494372241999986,-0.010099091878000005,-0.00157722029299983,0.014638221325000058,0.004542494182000019,-0.004686711013000083,0.005571236921000049,0.0032447933940000307,0.002550828731799996,0.0017572792280003847,0.0009642639230001312,0.0015099468059999628,0.01346871424499993,-0.0011898321030001506
United_Kingdom_Yorkshire_Ribblesdale_Selside_Grike:S3056,0.11435623321100001,0.127437428669,0.034256799294,-0.0008869411419999279,0.041397192324000014,0.00137702683024,0.001134979757000056,0.0032856480389999235,0.012292903886000121,0.02490663311500018,0.001606680885780002,0.006099047247999961,-0.012928472967000008,-0.0032560807349998055,-0.0015052648650000014,0.0024428760909999334,0.003787695120999829,0.001693733302999885,0.00562115684500001,-0.0036842564242000075,-0.0011307818110000006,-0.000006673814999746952,-0.0016259916209999878,0.0020906590410000106,-0.0016741472860001133

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Scaled preliminary coordinates by Davidski

https://pastebin.com/raw/pRLqH3h5

[JamesBond007]

Don't remember much, but Bretons are still rather near Welsh and Cornish genetically still, aren't they? We'll drop them from the suspect list if so.

To me, it's plausible, but not all the way satisfactory, it might even predate their settlement. They conquered what was arguably the most prosperous and centralised kingdom in Western Europe and though I can see that they brought in peasantry and staff, they had no hangups about just being their elites and couldn't have had that dramatic an effect on what was established in Southeast England in dates prior. They couldn't have it was well populated even after. I'm more in agreement with Creoda, the Romans even struggled to define the Belgae as full blown Gaulish or German or a harmonious blend of the 2, add the flood of Franks to follow and their inevitable interaction with Saxons as continental neighbors or with their offshoots across the strait of Dover, some pre-1066 intermingling had to have been inevitable. Think I also remember reading at some point that some Romans interacted with Gauls settled in today's Kent, it made it clear those weren't Britons. It's fun to ponder about, not going to lie.

It could be there were two kinds of British Celts one related to the Irish and one the French. The Normans were an elite group and we really did not genetically mix with the commoners (except in Ireland?) and when we did we did not change the genetic structure of the masses for also the second reason that we were also Celto-Germanic essentially.

I have an elite hiberno-norman name and here is my G25 :

0.026 Kevin_scaled = 66% Northwest*Europe:Scandinavia:Norwegian + 34% Northwest*Europe:French*(Oïl):French*(Normandy*Cal vados)
0.026 Kevin_scaled = 63% Northwest*Europe:Scandinavia:Norwegian*(Bergen) + 37% Northwest*Europe:French*(Oïl):French*(Normandy*Cal vados)

Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02829386 Northwest*Europe:Netherlands: Dutch
0.02959299 Scottish
0.02982029 Northwest*Europe:Scandinavia:Norwegian
0.03080579 Northwest*Europe:Scandinavia: Danish
0.03097093 Northwest*Europe:British*Isles:Welsh
0.03097094 Welsh
0.03117504 Northwest*Europe:Scandinavia:Norwegian*(Bergen)
0.03119617 Northwest*Europe:British*Isles:Irish
0.03153596 Northwest*Europe:British*Isles:Scottish
0.03173767 Northwest*Europe:British*Isles:English

My closest population is Dutch since I have strong Norwegian admixture so the anglo-saxons I guess were related to the Dutch and Danes so it is apparent that Normans , like myself, would not change the genetic structure really by mixing.

Creoda likes to call me a mick+kraut peasant but my father has a Scottish name and my so called 'German' heritage is technically from France. I would guess my results to be Scotto-Norman of the lowland kind like Robert the Bruce.

So much for social mobility… 1,000 years after William the Conquerer invaded, you still need a Norman name like Darcy or Percy to get ahead

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rcy-ahead.html