G25 Balkan Calculator

**~~Tongio~~** · 09-30-2022, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by wvwvw

The Iberian branch of Illyrians and Hellenes (R1b) mixed with the native lineages of the J2 and E-V13 and formed the Illyrians and Hellenes. The Iberian branch spoke a non IE language similar to basque.

The native branch J2 of Illyrians split form the Minoan Greeks in 1450 BC when the Achaeans migrated south and founded the Mycenaean Civilisation.

The primary Iberian marker of the Hellenes ancestors only appears in 1/3 of the population of Classical Greece. The majority of the people were already there before the Iberians who formed the Hellenic invaders of 2200 BC migrated to the Balkans. By the time the Dorians moved south these Iberians  were already diluted by a 2/3 Helladic mix and were already  speaking Greek.

Illyrian is also a Hybrid of the language of the Enchelenes and the indigenous Italo-Celtic language since the Enhelenes colonised Illyria in 1400 BC.

When the Mycenaean Civilisation was at its height the Celts were Italics was  one tribe which derive from an R1b DNA linage that migrated out of Iberia. The language of this linage was Basque. It was their contact with the Greeks  that the Celto-Italics changed their language. This  is a historical fact recorded by the Romans who claimed Greek decent.

The Tribes of Europe at the time of Ancient Greece and Rome are as follows (based on the founding fathers DNA evidence):
Unmixed Tribes:
Celts - R1b linage (includes all Spaniards, Gauls and Celt's) Slavs - R1a linage (includes all Hungarians, Serbs and Bulgarians) Germanics - I linage  Finns - N linage 

Mixed Tribes:
Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Lydians, Phrygians and Carians

Wtf i never read so much nonsense in all those forum years.
But just to avoid confusion for newbies, Illiyrian J2b2a1 have nothing tô do with mínoan J2a.They (J2a* and J2b*) separate what, 28.000 years ago in the caucasus region, among pre históric CHG, maybe even before CHG as we know came tô form.

**~~Hulu~~** · 09-30-2022, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Feiichy

Putting Iron Age Illyrians and late Antiquity Romans with very different genetics under same label is either deliberate manipulation or just being stupid.
I would say Rizza case is both but more leaning to second.

They need to be clearly separated to see how much you score of one and of other.

But they were similar. If we are more similar to a Roman sample than an Illyrian that works against your argument that we have eastern influence. I dont get your point. Were Illyrians more eastern than Romans or what?
Both Romans and Illyrians had a north to south cline as we do today.

**wvwvw** · 09-30-2022, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tongio

Wtf i never read so much nonsense in all those forum years.
But just to avoid confusion for newbies, Illiyrian J2b2a1 have nothing tô do with mínoan J2a.They (J2a* and J2b*) separate what, 28.000 years ago in the caucasus region, among pre históric CHG, maybe even before CHG as we know came tô form.

I meant the Iberian branch of Illyrians R1b.

By 5000 years ago the  Hittite-Palasgian-Hellenes who lived in Macedonia spilt into two groups, the Illyrians and the Xuthian-Aeolian-Dorians. By 2200 BC these Xuthian-Aeolian-Dorians migrated into southern Greece in trickles and by 1450 BC conquered the Minoans.

The Dorian-Pelasgi came to Greece in 2200 BC and later in 1900 BC the Ionians came along and put a wedge between those in the north and those in the Peloponnese. The Dorian-Pelasgi in North-Western Greece became Dorians. Those in the Peloponnese and Thessaly became Pelasgi. The Dorian's were nomadic whereas the Pelasgi were City Dwellers hence their name Polis-gi.

The Archaeological and historical evidence suggests that the Doric-Arcado-Cypriot-Ionians were the original Pelasgains and came to Greece in about 2200 BC. These Pelasgains were descended from the same common ancestors as the Thracians, Cretans and Rhodians in about 2700 BC who together shared the same ancestor with the Illyrians in about 3200 BC and
even further back come the Lydian's and Carains.

The Dorains split from the Pelasgains in 1700 BC and settled in Macedonia and Thessaly and in 1500 BC the Mycenaean's entered the Peloponnese and split from the Proto-Ionians who remained in Atttica.

**Rizza** · 09-30-2022, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Russki

Iron Age Croatia was inhabited by Illyrians but he uses a sample of a Roman soldier who was stationed in Croatia to mislead people that Albanians score a high Illyrian.

You two dumb fucks would sell your mothers to be Illyrian lel.

Are you kidding or what ? These are my results with only Iron Age Croatia and Iron Age Albania.

Target: Rizza
Distance: 1.4845% / 0.01484485
62.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
22.8 HRV_EIA
14.0 Migration_Period
0.4 HRV_IA

Samples I used here:

Spoiler!

Code:

ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688,0.122929,0.161469,0.02489,-0.028101,0.028005,-0.015618,0.004935,0.001846,0.000409,0.019499,-0.000974,0.01139,-0.016799,-0.004266,-0.006786,-0.016441,-0.009518,0.004054,0.005028,-0.007253,-0.013601,0.009398,-0.005176,0.011086,-0.007065
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690,0.125205,0.149283,0.034318,-0.00646,0.029544,-0.005857,-0.001175,0.004846,-0.00225,0.019681,0.001461,0.002698,-0.020069,-0.006468,-0.003122,0.002121,0.001825,0.003167,0.002011,-0.002501,-0.007861,0.003462,0.005423,-0.004217,-0.005269
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692,0.125205,0.152329,0.025644,-0.010336,0.019388,0.001116,-0.008695,0.003461,0.006136,0.025878,0.007145,0.010641,-0.018583,-0.00234,-0.011536,-0.006099,0.008605,0.00038,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.010981,-0.006183,-0.001479,0.012411,0.003113
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251,0.124067,0.144205,0.018102,-0.019703,0.025851,-0.003347,0.002115,0.008077,0.000205,0.022233,-0.000974,0.005095,-0.017096,-0.017753,-0.013301,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.003294,0.010182,-0.013006,-0.000125,0.005441,-0.007148,-0.001687,-0.004431
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253,0.130897,0.156392,0.034318,-0.010982,0.035083,-0.000279,0.002115,0.001846,0.0045,0.029158,0.008931,0.015436,-0.024083,-0.001927,-0.012893,0.000796,0.012647,0.008361,0.011816,-0.009505,-0.011355,-0.002349,-0.003944,0.008917,-0.007185
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254,0.120652,0.157407,0.039598,-0.006137,0.031698,-0.011992,0.00705,-0.014076,-0.011044,0.033896,-0.002761,0.001349,-0.018137,-0.005918,-0.010586,-0.007558,0.021774,0.00076,-0.009176,-0.013256,-0.006988,-0.003215,-0.010846,0.01446,-0.008382
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256,0.118376,0.151314,0.02489,-0.005491,0.034468,-0.001673,0.00188,-0.003231,0,0.018406,0.005359,-0.000599,-0.013379,-0.014863,-0.006107,0.013392,0.034943,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.010255,0.01148,0.005812,-0.00037,0.005181,-0.009101
HRV_EIA:I23904,0.120652,0.142174,0.031301,-0.008398,0.023389,-0.001394,-0.001175,0.008077,0.011044,0.028611,0.001299,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.009093,-0.002652,0.008866,0.009882,0.006536,-0.011631,-0.007237,0.000866,0.006409,0.006145,0.000718
HRV_EIA:I23911,0.125205,0.138112,0.032055,-0.006137,0.044624,-0.002789,-0.002115,0.001615,0.01493,0.036083,-0.004709,0.012439,-0.013677,-0.011147,0.003393,-0.008884,-0.001304,0.001774,0.006913,-0.004752,0.001248,0.002349,-0.001479,-0.000964,-0.003473
HRV_EIA:I23995,0.122929,0.145221,0.026776,-0.001938,0.032621,0.003904,0.00658,-0.000462,0.008999,0.026242,-0.00406,0.008542,-0.019772,-0.002615,-0.004479,0.001326,0.005346,0.005701,0.004399,0.002001,-0.000374,-0.002597,-0.003821,-0.008435,0.001916
HRV_EIA:I23996,0.127482,0.156392,0.033187,-0.000969,0.034776,-0.003347,0.00188,0.000231,0.019839,0.026606,-0.004709,0.009142,-0.025272,-0.003303,-0.005429,-0.016043,-0.001304,0.009375,0.016341,-0.009505,-0.001373,-0.001484,-0.00456,-0.002289,-0.002515
HRV_EIA:I24638,0.135449,0.149283,0.035072,0.00323,0.039084,0.006136,0.005405,0.005769,0.015953,0.033167,-0.000487,0.008542,-0.018583,-0.007569,0.005972,-0.003315,0.001434,0.004687,0.006411,0.001876,-0.003619,0.004946,0.003451,-0.007953,-0.004431
HRV_EIA:I24639,0.126344,0.152329,0.036204,0.002261,0.031698,0.000558,0.001175,0.003,0.006749,0.023691,-0.000812,0.009292,-0.012933,-0.002202,0.00095,-0.001591,-0.009779,-0.001267,0.004525,-0.006878,-0.012977,0.003586,0.003081,-0.004338,0.004311
HRV_EIA:I24879,0.132035,0.138112,0.033941,0.010336,0.036314,0.004183,0.000705,0.003231,0.002454,0.026242,0.002598,0.008243,-0.022448,-0.012248,-0.002172,0.011933,0.021383,-0.002154,0.007542,5e-04,0.002121,0.000742,-0.004314,0.00494,-0.003592
HRV_EIA:I24882,0.134311,0.150298,0.036204,-0.001615,0.040931,-0.007251,0.001175,-0.004384,0.002659,0.018224,0.002273,0.01124,-0.011893,-0.013349,-0.001764,-0.000928,0.003912,0.000633,0.00264,-0.004127,0.000998,0.004081,0.00493,0.00723,-0.009939
HRV_EIA:I26742,0.124067,0.153345,0.024136,-0.007429,0.035699,-0.008367,0.00141,0.004154,0.014521,0.028793,0.003248,0.008692,-0.016353,-0.010459,-0.004614,0.001193,0.006258,-0.000633,0.008925,-0.008004,-0.003119,0.00272,0.002588,0.006145,-0.006227
HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.01169,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
HRV_IA:I5723,0.124067,0.152329,0.039221,-0.006783,0.045239,-0.00251,0.00188,-0.003231,0.012271,0.030616,-0.004547,0.006444,-0.016501,-0.003441,-0.010043,0.003447,-0.000913,0.000887,0.004902,0.002376,-0.00836,0.001607,-0.004437,-0.001205,0.001557
HRV_IA:I5724,0.126344,0.152329,0.027907,0.006783,0.033237,-0.00753,0.006815,0.003923,0.01493,0.028976,-0.000162,0.008393,-0.009663,-0.00812,-0.007465,0.001458,-0.002086,0.007348,0.011816,-0.003377,-0.005989,0.011871,0.002095,-0.010724,0.000479
HRV_IA:I5725,0.112685,0.153345,0.039221,0.006783,0.041238,0.005857,0.000705,-0.001846,0.01309,0.02606,-0.001624,0.010641,-0.010109,-0.009909,-0.001357,-0.002784,0.00326,0.005321,0,0.002751,-0.000624,-0.001978,-0.00912,-0.004097,0.002395
HRV_IA:I5726,0.118376,0.15436,0.040729,-0.002907,0.03693,-0.005857,-0.003995,0.002538,0.014317,0.029522,-0.003248,0.005245,-0.010258,-0.015689,-0.001221,0.01485,0.021905,0.000253,-0.005028,0.005378,-0.001248,-0.003833,-0.006532,0.003615,-0.006826
HRV_IA:I5727,0.124067,0.139128,0.048649,0.026486,0.040931,0.008646,0.00235,0.006,0.011658,0.017859,-0.001949,-0.000749,0.003568,-0.001651,-0.002443,0.000796,0.001173,-0.001647,0.004148,0.001126,0.001996,-0.003091,-0.008874,-0.003976,0.001437
HRV_IA:I5728,0.124067,0.150298,0.04186,-0.004522,0.041546,-0.010598,0.00094,-0.000231,0.020657,0.0277,-0.002111,0.007943,-0.014123,0.003028,0.001221,-0.011535,-0.007823,0.000887,0.001383,0.001,-0.001747,0.014962,-0.005546,0.004217,-0.008502
HRV_IA:I5729,0.127482,0.149283,0.038466,0,0.032621,0.003626,0.001645,-0.003923,0.012476,0.024237,-0.005846,0.014237,-0.018434,-0.005367,-0.003529,0.000398,0.004563,0.00266,0.001885,-0.002126,0,0.000495,0.002835,-0.003735,-0.00455
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.130897,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664

Even if I add Macedonia Iron Age and Montenegro which were inhabited by Illyrians together with these. Albanians usually score that too before Bulgaria.

Iron Age samples from Croatia in the OP were also added and Iron Age Albania. Those other samples are definitely not Roman soldiers but locals most likely as they cluster like Balkan people more or less , next to Iron Age Albania which I showed on the PCA Map, Sisak clusters just south of me.

Though I don't understand what has that anything to do with the thread ? Nobody even specified such things in the first place.

You're just some insecure nutcases who are making false accusations.

**Jana** · 09-30-2022, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hulu

But they were similar. If we are more similar to a Roman sample than an Illyrian that works against your argument that we have eastern influence. I dont get your point. Were Illyrians more eastern than Romans or what?
Both Romans and Illyrians had a north to south cline as we do today.

Illyrians were similar to Italics, but notably more NW than Imperial Romans which were diverse but mainly Greek-like.
they weren't similar. Sisak and novo selo samples are nothing like IA Illyrians from same country.

There are Illyrian like post-IA samples from Croatia but these 2 were not those.

Illyrians from same area were like this and not even remotely close to Greeks:

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5729
0.01916320 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01949346 Italian_Veneto
0.02299119 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02328272 French_Provence
0.02364239 Italian_Northeast

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5728
0.02660396 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02788815 Spanish_Menorca
0.02908803 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02947233 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02985401 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5726
0.03133777 Spanish_Baleares
0.03164819 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03273003 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03308302 Spanish_Girona
0.03336950 Spanish_Castello

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5725
0.02135420 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02293093 Spanish_Penedes
0.02304082 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02415175 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02426090 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5724
0.02743270 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02803796 Italian_Veneto
0.03205745 Italian_Bergamo
0.03359404 Italian_Northeast
0.03369127 Spanish_Mallorca

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5723
0.02206328 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02225406 Italian_Bergamo
0.02403735 Italian_Veneto
0.02621592 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02683446 Spanish_Baleares

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I3313
0.02400696 Italian_Lombardy
0.02684022 Italian_Bergamo
0.03098048 Italian_Piedmont
0.03132283 Italian_Veneto
0.03232243 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I26742
0.01971362 Italian_Bergamo
0.02074188 Italian_Veneto
0.02251567 Italian_Piedmont
0.02295622 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02423634 French_Corsica

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24882
0.02496761 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02497335 Italian_Veneto
0.02635536 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02756537 French_Provence
0.02769401 Italian_Northeast

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24879
0.02895674 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02958585 Swiss_French
0.03275488 French_Provence
0.03448691 Italian_Northeast
0.03632307 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24639
0.02329727 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02473615 Italian_Veneto
0.02592845 Italian_Northeast
0.02700281 Italian_Bergamo
0.02747467 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24638
0.02507400 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02620934 Spanish_Girona
0.02626161 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02628569 Spanish_Penedes
0.02633317 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23996
0.02916613 Italian_Bergamo
0.03000246 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03125888 Italian_Lombardy
0.03313542 Italian_Veneto
0.03517805 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23995
0.02057799 Italian_Veneto
0.02180827 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02479018 Italian_Bergamo
0.02520178 Italian_Northeast
0.02716413 Spanish_Mallorca

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23911
0.02147853 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02239344 Spanish_Menorca
0.02311794 Spanish_Baleares
0.02324265 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02379884 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: Illyrians:I23904
0.02502255 Italian_Veneto
0.02670273 Swiss_Italian
0.02680831 Italian_Bergamo
0.02734474 Italian_Piedmont
0.02818026 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
0.02105956 Italian_Veneto
0.02174158 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02326262 Italian_Northeast
0.02606621 Swiss_French
0.02612681 Italian_Aosta_Valley

**wvwvw** · 09-30-2022, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rizza

Try this , created by Bruzmi on Anthrogenica

Code:

Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.0158387,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA,0.1276082,0.1472518,0.0320973,-0.0011843,0.0354596,-0.0009297,0.0016711,0.002359,0.0107942,0.0275177,-0.0005954,0.008992,-0.0170796,-0.0077679,-0.0019151,-0.0021068,0.003868,0.0031109,0.0071369,-0.0045022,-0.0027036,0.0016899,0.0006983,5.34e-05,-0.0025813
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Coverage_50.40%,0.1201,0.1444,0.0077,-0.0179,0.0246,-0.0079,-0.0002,0.0011,0.0026,0.013,0.0015,0.0047,-0.0102,0.0001,-0.0079,0.0017,0.0101,0,0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0028,0.0013,-0.0018,-0.001,-0.0017
HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA,0.1270678,0.1491904,0.0278726,-0.0069885,0.0273337,-0.00573,-0.0005768,0.0010698,0.0039603,0.0292077,0.0040745,0.0097005,-0.01342,-0.006781,-0.0104628,3.6e-05,0.006377,0.0004607,0.0056794,-0.0089245,-0.0069195,0.0050474,-0.0004818,0.0054114,-0.0012845
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.130897,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664

My results:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.8051% / 0.00805085
49.2 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
36.8 Albania_IA_Rom
14.0 Migration_Period

Can you put any Illyrian, Thracian, Etruscan, Mycenean samples together with modern populations

**Jana** · 09-30-2022, 03:45 PM

Very homogenous genetic profile which is SW European like and ranges from North Italian to Iberian and southern French/Alpine French.
thus later Greek like samples from Croatia are clear foreigners that came as Roman soldiers.

**Jana** · 09-30-2022, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Feiichy

Very homogenous genetic profile which is SW European like and ranges from North Italian to Iberian and southern French/Alpine French.
thus later Greek like samples from Croatia are clear foreigners that came as Roman soldiers.

Many are mix of Illyrians and these foreigners too and some even look Thracian.

**Rizza** · 09-30-2022, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Feiichy

Putting Iron Age Illyrians and late Antiquity Romans with very different genetics under same label is either deliberate manipulation or just being stupid.
I would say Rizza case is both but more leaning to second.

They need to be clearly separated to see how much you score of one and of other.

Nobody ever said those samples are Illyrians. What on earth are you even talking about ? They might or they might not be. Genetics can change. The sample clearly states Roman and even has the time frame. So what are you on about ?

**Jana** · 09-30-2022, 03:48 PM

I use all these samples in my Croat-specific model and it clearly shows how much of my pre-Slavic is Illyrian and how much is later Roman colonist origin.