What Modern British Populations are you Closer to (SCALED)

[Grace O'Malley]

^^^^Grace, I was talking about the alleged closeness to the Basques. Oppenheimer's faddish theory was one of your pet peeves, especially in the days when it was taken as gospel on the forums (a theory, like Jason Voorhees, that just won't die).

It is a pet peeve. It never made sense either because even when it came out you had the great Italian geneticist Luigi Cavalli-Sforza who had looked at a huge amount of populations and had genetic distance tables and Basques were very distant to Irish so it never made sense to me but if you're reading this in a newspaper or hearing it on TV you aren't going to know about genetic distance. When I first looked at this forum it was very much a thing when even then there was plenty of information to refute it. People also take offence if you state it isn't accurate which I don't understand. It's not personal and has nothing to do with not liking any population. I do not have any prejudices in that area. It has been interesting over the years. The biggest milestone to me was the 2015 study that came out which proved that R1b came from the Steppe.

[alnortedelsur]

It's only because I've looked at genetic distance tables and Gedmatch results etc over the years. That is how I knew Irish and Scots were more distant. It is also logical when you think about it. Places like English Cornwall are closer to the European continent. Also English Cornwall have a higher amount of European Farmer. Ireland is an island off of another island it is going to be more distant to other populations. There are some exceptions though which make it interesting but it could be due to things like ANE being higher etc.

If you look at just what countries are closer and sometimes it's not because of geographic distance I'm interested in why? If you look at Irish and Cornwall below why is Polish closer to the Irish even though Cornwall is less isolated than Ireland? That sort of thing is interesting to me.

As I said in another post (I think I was responding to Anglo-Celtic), actually Cornish peninsula and Wales are in a more isolated position compared to Ireland, since Cornualles and Wales are in the very west of Great Britain, not as far from continental Europe as Ireland, but are more sheltered from foreign invasions than Ireland for not having shores to open seas like the later.

[Purple Panther]

It is a pet peeve. It never made sense either because even when it came out you had the great Italian geneticist Luigi Cavalli-Sforza who had looked at a huge amount of populations and had genetic distance tables and Basques were very distant to Irish so it never made sense to me but if you're reading this in a newspaper or hearing it on TV you aren't going to know about genetic distance. When I first looked at this forum it was very much a thing when even then there was plenty of information to refute it. People also take offence if you state it isn't accurate which I don't understand. It's not personal and has nothing to do with not liking any population. I do not have any prejudices in that area. It has been interesting over the years. The biggest milestone to me was the 2015 study that came out which proved that R1b came from the Steppe.

Along the same lines, maybe the mysterious Polish factor has to do with ancient roots in an eastern European refugium. It's just a spontaneous theory that likely makes more sense than Oppenheimer's (not the nuke guy) PC claims. Yep, I think that he stressed the political and the social more than the scientific. You would have an aneurism if you read the YouTube comments about the belief in his theory ("that's why Colin Farrell looks Spanish, bro'").

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't want to be misunderstood. I don't defend Openhimer old theories or any special British/Irish-Iberian connection, and I know that R1b was brought to western Europe by Indo-European population movements. I'm just saying that there is a pre-Indo European substratum that gets higher the more west you go in Europe, which makes sense, since west Europe is like a last corner from the point of view of Indo-European waves coming from the east. And that pre-Indo European substratum peaks in Iberia (not talking about R1b, or anything of that sort, just saying) for being in the very west of Europe, and having been less affected by Celtic and other Indo-European waves compared to Britain and Ireland. But British and Irish, for their very western position in Europe, have more of that ancient substratum (peaking in SW England and Wales, but more diluted than in modern Iberians) than other northern Europeans.

Basque language would be the only linguistical remain of that ancient pre-Indo European substratum.

If not, then how you explain that Cornish and Welsh (in their more isolated position, without shores to open sea) are the closest Brits to Iberians?

It is due to higher levels of Farmer. Cornish and Welsh have a lot of Anglo-Saxon but they also have got some later genetic input from France. There are also Normans which is not something that is fully understood yet i.e. how much the Normans influenced Britain and Ireland genetically. If you look at the Cornish they are still closer to neighbouring populations. If you look at Belgians and South Dutch they will be closer to places in Spain but this is due to them having higher Farmer or being more southern shifted etc. I think the French are the epicentre. I don't think there was anything directly from Iberia. I also don't think Cornwall and Wales were more isolated. Wales is open to the Irish Sea and Cornwall is surrounded by sea. Look how close it is to the European mainland.

[Grace O'Malley]

Along the same lines, maybe the mysterious Polish factor has to do with ancient roots in an eastern European refugium. It's just a spontaneous theory that likely makes more sense than Oppenheimer's (not the nuke guy) PC claims. Yep, I think that he stressed the political and the social more than the scientific. You would have an aneurism if you read the YouTube comments about the belief in his theory ("that's why Colin Farrell looks Spanish, bro'").

I think it is because the Irish have a little higher ANE. The reasons for this is that they have retained more Bell Beaker ancestry. There has always been some mixture from Britain though which filters through the whole population over time. It is why Ireland doesn't form a cluster on her own. This is a new plot that came out with a Scandinavian study. Some of the more isolated places are Donegal which makes perfect sense in that they are the far northwestern county in Ireland.

[alnortedelsur]

It is due to higher levels of Farmer. Cornish and Welsh have a lot of Anglo-Saxon but they also have got some later genetic input from France. There are also Normans which is not something that is fully understood yet i.e. how much the Normans influenced Britain and Ireland genetically. If you look at the Cornish they are still closer to neighbouring populations. If you look at Belgians and South Dutch they will be closer to places in Spain but this is due to them having higher Farmer or being more southern shifted etc. I think the French are the epicentre. I don't think there was anything directly from Iberia. I also don't think Cornwall and Wales were more isolated. Wales is open to the Irish Sea and Cornwall is surrounded by sea. Look how close it is to the European mainland.

OK, I was wrong. Cornwall is surrounded by sea, but to the open sea to the west, and with its back to the east, and from the Strait of Calais. Ireland is further surrounded by open sea in all directions than Cornwall and Wales.

That Farmer you talk about could be the ancient pre-Indo European component I talk about. Maybe it doesn't peak in Iberia, but in France as you say, but my point of an ancient pre-Indo European component (ie Farmer) being higher the more west you go in Europe still stands. Basque language could be the last linguistic remain of that EEF substratum.

[Grace O'Malley]

OK, I was wrong. Cornwall is surrounded by sea, but to the open sea to the west, and with its back to the east, and from the Strait of Calais. Ireland is further surrounded by open sea in all directions than Cornwall and Wales.

That Farmer you talk about could be the ancient pre-Indo European component I talk about. Maybe it doesn't peak in Iberia, but in France as you say, but my point of an ancient pre-Indo European component (ie Farmer) being higher the more west you go in Europe still stands. Basque language could be the last linguistic remain of that EEF substratum.

I just know from the Irish that Irish Farmer was virtually non-existent or so small when Bell Beaker came. Something caused a dramatic crash in the farmers that were there. It is why Irish today are closer to Globular Amphora than Ballynahatty. Most of the Farmer genes in the Irish are most likely from Bell Beaker and not the local Irish farmer population.

[Kiel]

Welsh all the way! Could someone explain why?

Distance to: Kiel_scaled
0.03316658 Welsh
0.03490439 English
0.03564107 English_Cornwall
0.03696320 Orcadian
0.03726191 Scottish
0.04105767 Shetlandic
0.04174220 Irish

Target: Kiel_scaled
Distance: 3.3167% / 0.03316658
100.0 Welsh

[Grace O'Malley]

Welsh all the way! Could someone explain why?

Distance to: Kiel_scaled
0.03316658 Welsh
0.03490439 English
0.03564107 English_Cornwall
0.03696320 Orcadian
0.03726191 Scottish
0.04105767 Shetlandic
0.04174220 Irish

Target: Kiel_scaled
Distance: 3.3167% / 0.03316658
100.0 Welsh

I'm really not sure. It could just be an individual thing. You would need lots of results to make any kind of hypothesis. In the end I would rely more on scientific studies who use a lot of samples. G25 is a great tool but some population samples aren't large. Gedmatch and G25 are great as anyone can use them and they are generally accurate but I wouldn't rely solely on results of G25 or Gedmatch calcs.

[oszkar07]

Welsh all the way! Could someone explain why?

Distance to: Kiel_scaled
0.03316658 Welsh
0.03490439 English
0.03564107 English_Cornwall
0.03696320 Orcadian
0.03726191 Scottish
0.04105767 Shetlandic
0.04174220 Irish

Target: Kiel_scaled
Distance: 3.3167% / 0.03316658
100.0 Welsh

What I find interesting is your distance is similiar to me and Daco and we are
genetically 50% from that region.