What Book Are You Currently Reading?

[rothaer]

Lovely!

And thank you for your very interesting explanations!

I myself suffer a little bit from being derooted regionally, but the mother of this son of mine is an indigenous to Mecklenburg "peasant daughter". I support all sticking to the roots and so I do for this son of mine. His maternal great-grandparents did speak Low German only among themselves but neither his grandmother nor his mother are speaking Low German actively. As the foreseen heir of the family farm of my wife, I told my son that he must speak Low German as well. And he agreed to that. We'll start with "De Spökenkieker".

[Laly]

I myself suffer a little bit from being derooted regionally, but the mother of this son of mine is an indigenous to Mecklenburg "peasant daughter". I support all sticking to the roots and so I do for this son of mine. His maternal great-grandparents did speak Low German only among themselves but neither his grandmother nor his mother are speaking Low German actively. As the foreseen heir of the family farm of my wife, I told my son that he must speak Low German as well. And he agreed to that. We'll start with "De Spökenkieker".

Dear rothaer, what do you mean exactly, when you say you feel “derooted regionally”? Your children are very lucky to have you as their father, as you provide them such a good education, cultivation, in accordance with the family roots. That’s so cool if your son is ready to become a farmer and that he wants to learn Low German! Is it easy to find Low German courses, by the way? It’s interesting, because Dutch is also Low German, but the word used is very different from “De Spökenkieker”, as it is “De ziener”.

[rothaer]

Dear rothaer, what do you mean exactly, when you say you feel “derooted regionally”? Your children are very lucky to have you as their father, as you provide them such a good education, cultivation, in accordance with the family roots. That’s so cool if your son is ready to become a farmer and that he wants to learn Low German! Is it easy to find Low German courses, by the way? It’s interesting, because Dutch is also Low German, but the word used is very different from “De Spökenkieker”, as it is “De ziener”.

With derooted regionally I meant that my ancestry is essentially widely spread over Eastern and Central Germany and the biggest proportions I have from a specific area is 1/8 only. I have that two times and all other ancestries are geographically even more fragmented. My wife has 8/8 ancestry from one specific rural area.

I've not yet looked for a Low German course. They had Low German in the gymnasium where I live but they just cancelled it this year as the interest was not sufficient for maintaing a class.

The translations are unfortunately not always with the etymological correspondig word. The Standard High German title of that book is "Der Seher" so it's the same like in Dutch. But there's also an edition of that book in the Vienna dialect with the title "Da Woasoga". Maybe you can sense that that's "Der Wahrsager" in Standard High German.

[Laly]

With derooted regionally I meant that my ancestry is essentially widely spread over Eastern and Central Germany and the biggest proportions I have from a specific area is 1/8 only. I have that two times and all other ancestries are geographically even more fragmented. My wife has 8/8 ancestry from one specific rural area.

I've not yet looked for a Low German course. They had Low German in the gymnasium where I live but they just cancelled it this year as the interest was not sufficient for maintaing a class.

The translations are unfortunately not always with the etymological correspondig word. The Standard High German title of that book is "Der Seher" so it's the same like in Dutch. But there's also an edition of that book in the Vienna dialect with the title "Da Woasoga". Maybe you can sense that that's "Der Wahrsager" in Standard High German.

As I understand, Low German is not standardised. Do you think it would be a good thing, for the vitality of the language, for its attractiveness, to standardise it? I feel that maybe there would be more speakers, but its richness would be lost. I am thinking here about a language like Luxembourgish, which was standardised only in 1976 and which acquired then a real status of national language.

[rothaer]

As I understand, Low German is not standardised. Do you think it would be a good thing, for the vitality of the language, for its attractiveness, to standardise it? I feel that maybe there would be more speakers, but its richness would be lost.

A good question. As the "life" of Low German is anyhow likely performed 98% verbally a standardisation of the spelling would hardly have an importance. If you mean to standardize the spoken Low German it would mean to start lecturing 80% of those few who speak Low German that they are speaking "wrongly". This would not exactly be encouraging. In the same manner a standardisation of the spelling would declare 90% of all written Low German incorrect and there are not much new texts emerging. At the bottom line I think that would not be helpful for preservation.

I am thinking here about a language like Luxembourgish, which was standardised only in 1976 and which acquired then a real status of national language.

I'm not yet sure what's the effect of that. Will it help preserving the local dialect? My doubts are whether that at all is a help. Consider that Bavarian f. i. does not need anything like that for being preserved. They simply pronounce the Standard High German text their way. It's the same like when a Viennese pronounces "Der Wahrsager" like "Da Woasoga". If you now would seriously introduce a spelling like "Da Woasoga" in Vienna, it would imply that "Der Wahrsager" is then not anymore pronounced "Da Woasoga". So such a thing could even lead to the opposite, i. e. a decline of the usage of the local dialect.

I don't know how this has turned out in Luxembourg. While people earlier likely pronounced all German in their moselfränkisch way, they today maybe think that Moselfränkisch is not German and they maybe now restrict their moselfränkisch pronounciation to the situations when they do have a Lëtzebuergesch spelled text. Maybe you can assess how that is.

(The 1976 created Lëtzebuergesch spelling was essentially an anti-German measure in order to separate from the common Nation of Germans. But that's another story.)

[Laly]

A good question. As the "life" of Low German is anyhow likely performed 98% verbally a standardisation of the spelling would hardly have an importance. If you mean to standardize the spoken Low German it would mean to start lecturing 80% of those few who speak Low German that they are speaking "wrongly". This would not exactly be encouraging. In the same manner a standardisation of the spelling would declare 90% of all written Low German incorrect and there are not much new texts emerging. At the bottom line I think that would not be helpful for preservation.



I'm not yet sure what's the effect of that. Will it help preserving the local dialect? My doubts are whether that at all is a help. Consider that Bavarian f. i. does not need anything like that for being preserved. They simply pronounce the Standard High German text their way. It's the same like when a Viennese pronounces "Der Wahrsager" like "Da Woasoga". If you now would seriously introduce a spelling like "Da Woasoga" in Vienna, it would imply that "Der Wahrsager" is then not anymore pronounced "Da Woasoga". So such a thing could even lead to the opposite, i. e. a decline of the usage of the local dialect.

I don't know how this has turned out in Luxembourg. While people earlier likely pronounced all German in their moselfränkisch way, they today maybe think that Moselfränkisch is not German and they maybe now restrict their moselfränkisch pronounciation to the situations when they do have a Lëtzebuergesch spelled text. Maybe you can assess how that is.

(The 1976 created Lëtzebuergesch spelling was essentially an anti-German measure in order to separate from the common Nation of Germans. But that's another story.)

I agree with you.

According to the Germanic idea, viewpoint, the nation, defined greatly as a linguistic community (Volkstum), is a prerequisite for a Sate. But in the case of Luxembourg, we could say that the State was there before the language and the consciousness of a national identity. The advent of the Luxembourgish language is not spontaneous, but the reflection of an identitarian assertion. Luxembourg has always been a multilingual country, but sharing languages with adjacent countries, from which it wanted to distinguish.

Luxembourgish itself has strong French and Walloon influences too. I find it somewhat funny that there are many composed words – in a very Germanic way – that are made with both Germanic and French words, like in the following examples:

“Fussballsterrain” is “football pitch”.

“Bréifboîte” is “letterbox”.

There was in Luxembourg a Westmoselfränkisch linguistic continuum, mostly an oral language, but in the context of the establishment of a Luxembourgish language, it is the variety of the capital and the Alzette valley that was chosen.

The Luxembourgish language is still in the process of standardisation, and there are regularly new rules that are established. There’s a very important government’s official in Luxembourg, the Commissaire fir d'Lëtzebuerger Sprooch / Commissaire à la langue luxembourgeoise, whose role is to put in place projects in order to promote and to standardize Luxembourgish.

[Regnera]

This one

Certainly,I read the Chinese translation.

[rothaer]

I agree with you.

According to the Germanic idea, viewpoint, the nation, defined greatly as a linguistic community (Volkstum), is a prerequisite for a Sate. But in the case of Luxembourg, we could say that the State was there before the language and the consciousness of a national identity.

Already Walther von der Vogelweide (b. abt. 1170) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walthe...der_Vogelweide composed poems about Germans and told how much he liked particularly German women so there will in general have been some ethnic consciousness but indeed, who knows how strong or weak it was? Many German states have older roots, so that's no peculiarity of Luxembourg, and I can not see that particularly Luxembourg stood outside of the German commonality in earlier times. In contrast, with the German royal dynasty of Luxemburger it even had a prominent role in the common German history. Btw. amongst other things this perception of Luxembourg being core German led to the Luxembourg crisis in 1867 and the upsetment in Northern German states when it was leaked that the Dutch king (or was he less?) wanted to sell Luxembourg to the French king.

The advent of the Luxembourgish language is not spontaneous, but the reflection of an identitarian assertion.

Yes.

Luxembourg has always been a multilingual country, but sharing languages with adjacent countries, from which it wanted to distinguish.
Luxembourgish itself has strong French and Walloon influences too.

Yes. The German expectation was to get rid of that when the ethnic French parts of Luxembourg - the Walloon province Luxembourg - were split off and the remaining part was fully German. So a little bit disappointing.

I find it somewhat funny that there are many composed words – in a very Germanic way – that are made with both Germanic and French words, like in the following examples:

“Fussballsterrain” is “football pitch”.

“Bréifboîte” is “letterbox”.

Yeah. It's actually a horror to the German soul and its sense for order. Did you know that most of the time when there were used gothic letters in German the foreign words were even emphasisingly written in Latin letters?

There was in Luxembourg a Westmoselfränkisch linguistic continuum, mostly an oral language, but in the context of the establishment of a Luxembourgish language, it is the variety of the capital and the Alzette valley that was chosen.

Interesting.

The Luxembourgish language is still in the process of standardisation, and there are regularly new rules that are established. There’s a very important government’s official in Luxembourg, the Commissaire fir d'Lëtzebuerger Sprooch / Commissaire à la langue luxembourgeoise, whose role is to put in place projects in order to promote and to standardize Luxembourgish.

Can you say anything about the proportions in the usage of the three official languages French, Standard High German and Lëtzebuergesch, say when it comes to written texts (newspapers, books, advertisements)?

[Laly]

Already Walther von der Vogelweide (b. abt. 1170) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walthe...der_Vogelweide composed poems about Germans and told how much he liked particularly German women so there will in general have been some ethnic consciousness but indeed, who knows how strong or weak it was? Many German states have older roots, so that's no peculiarity of Luxembourg, and I can not see that particularly Luxembourg stood outside of the German commonality in earlier times. In contrast, with the German royal dynasty of Luxemburger it even had a prominent role in the common German history. Btw. amongst other things this perception of Luxembourg being core German led to the Luxembourg crisis in 1867 and the upsetment in Northern German states when it was leaked that the Dutch king (or was he less?) wanted to sell Luxembourg to the French king.



Yes.



Yes. The German expectation was to get rid of that when the ethnic French parts of Luxembourg - the Walloon province Luxembourg - were split off and the remaining part was fully German. So a little bit disappointing.



Yeah. It's actually a horror to the German soul and its sense for order. Did you know that most of the time when there were used gothic letters in German the foreign words were even emphasisingly written in Latin letters?





Interesting.



Can you say anything about the proportions in the usage of the three official languages French, Standard High German and Lëtzebuergesch, say when it comes to written texts (newspapers, books, advertisements)?

Thank you for the information you provide! I’m happy to learn about Walther von der Vogelweide. But didn’t Luxembourg stand out, since the earliest times, in comparison with other German States, because of the fact that it was a multilingual, multi-ethnic State, a crossroad between Romance and Germanic idioms? Isn’t it very singular? I find it really striking that often, when Luxembourgers evoke Luxembourg, they refer to a greater region than the Grand Duchy, including the “lost territories”.

Actually, the geographic division between the Walloon province of Luxembourg and the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg was not strictly ethnic/linguistic. In fact, there are parts of the current Grand Duchy that were historically Romance/French and there are parts of the current Walloon province of Luxembourg that are truly Germanic, like in Arlon and its region.

As you mention a disappointment, are you personally disappointed?

It’s very interesting that Germans used traditionally another font for foreign words. In French, foreign words are supposed to be written in italics.

As you ask about the use of the three official languages in Luxembourg, French is, since the Middle Ages, the language of administration and legislation. Administrative and legislative texts are compulsorily written in French, the only admissible language for them.

I’d say Luxembourgers are real polyglots and they can easily juggle with Luxembourgish, French and German. Everywhere, in Luxembourg, I’ve always spoken in French and people can always answer to me in French, sometimes with a strong Germanic accent.

French is the language that is the most used at work:



French is in green, Luxembourgish in red, German in yellow, English in blue, Portuguese in purple (about 20% of the population is Portuguese ).

At home, Luxembourgish is the most used language:



For social interactions, it is Luxembourgish that comes first, followed by French:



The figures can be found here:

https://www.lefigaro.fr/langue-franc...luxembourg.php

There is a wide press offer in the three official languages, in the bookshops, you can also find books in the three languages, but I’d say there is much more choice in French or in German. The advertisements, are often in Luxembourgish.

[rothaer]

Thank you for the information you provide! I’m happy to learn about Walther von der Vogelweide. But didn’t Luxembourg stand out, since the earliest times, in comparison with other German States, because of the fact that it was a multilingual, multi-ethnic State, a crossroad between Romance and Germanic idioms?

According to this paper Luxembourg (today’s Luxembourg’s area) was a monolingual German speaking country essentially prior to 1843 and the biliguality is a pretty late development, see the visible abstract here:

Spoiler!

Abstract

The sociolinguistic status of the French language in the Grandduchy of Luxembourg has changed over the past two centuries. This former language of prestige spoken only by a small portion of the population in 1839 has now become the lingua franca of Luxembourg’s society and economy. This paper describes how a monolingual German speaking country was first made bilingual by the education act of 1843. Initially imposed by the power-élite, French was accepted as a symbol of national independence and as a shield against the threat of German annexation. It became the language of higher administration and law and in a certain sense it was the virtual national language until the language law of 1984. This law not only declared Luxembourgish as the national language but gave specific functions to the French, German and Luxembourgish languages. Nowadays demographic and economic changes are challenging the historical balance of status between the three languages of the country. The paper emphasises the role of the educational system in creating this balance, especially in defining the superiority of French. It also shows how the reform of language teaching and the strong resistance of French teachers to this re-form is part of the renegotiation of the status of the French language in a nowadays multilingual country.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/d...9420300.37/pdf

Isn’t it very singular?

If we theoretically assume it to be applicable then it would not have been very singular in a German context. You had since the Middle Ages German and Czech intertwined in Bohemia and Moravia, you had German and Polish(/Kashubian) intertwined in Silesia and Westprussia, you had German and Lithuanian intertwined in East Prussia (including Memelland) and in historical Carinthia and Styria you had German and Slovenian intertwined kind of ever since. But I think besides German only Czech also had a status of an administrational language for some periods of time.

I find it really striking that often, when Luxembourgers evoke Luxembourg, they refer to a greater region than the Grand Duchy, including the “lost territories”.

Well, everyone likes particularly the periods of time when he was more important. When you talk to educated Swedes it doesn't take long time till they are into "stormaktstiden" (the great power time period).

Actually, the geographic division between the Walloon province of Luxembourg and the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg was not strictly ethnic/linguistic. In fact, there are parts of the current Grand Duchy that were historically Romance/French and there are parts of the current Walloon province of Luxembourg that are truly Germanic, like in Arlon and its region.

The latter (Arlon) I knew but the former not and I’ve not yet seen a map where that was made visible. Can tell where in the current Grand Duchy that was applicable? I've just seen maps like this:

As you mention a disappointment, are you personally disappointed?

Yes.

As you ask about the use of the three official languages in Luxembourg, French is, since the Middle Ages, the language of administration and legislation.

As the linked by me paper than would be totally wrong, do you have any source for that?

Administrative and legislative texts are compulsorily written in French, the only admissible language for them.

Yeah, wtf? An ultimate self-Jean-Claude-isation!

I’d say Luxembourgers are real polyglots and they can easily juggle with Luxembourgish, French and German. Everywhere, in Luxembourg, I’ve always spoken in French and people can always answer to me in French, sometimes with a strong Germanic accent.

What a fate of a once proud and important German country...

French is the language that is the most used at work:

French is in green, Luxembourgish in red, German in yellow, English in blue, Portuguese in purple (about 20% of the population is Portuguese ).

At home, Luxembourgish is the most used language:

For social interactions, it is Luxembourgish that comes first, followed by French:

The figures can be found here:

https://www.lefigaro.fr/langue-franc...luxembourg.php

There is a wide press offer in the three official languages, in the bookshops, you can also find books in the three languages, but I’d say there is much more choice in French or in German. The advertisements, are often in Luxembourgish.

Very interesting data, thanks!