Ukrainian national average

[Leto]

I consider myself a northern Russian because of their discrimination. The entire Russian people will become this 5% people of northern Russians if they begin to be separated from us.

There is no such discrimination in real life. It's some internet forum bullshit. In reality most Russians are regionally mixed including a lot of Khokhol, Belarus and sometimes other kinds of ancestry like Polish, German, recent Finno-Ugric etc.

[Ugo]

There is no such discrimination in real life. It's some internet forum bullshit. In reality most Russians are regionally mixed including a lot of Khokhol, Belarus and sometimes other kinds of ancestry like Polish, German, recent Finno-Ugric etc.

I don't agree. My ancestors clearly understand who they are and their mixtures. My 1/4 Ukrainian admixture is clearly differentiated in my family. My grandfather, who married a Ukrainian, clearly understood that he was Russian, and my grandmother understood that she was Ukrainian. Together they hated blacks and Mongoloids.

[CountGrishnackh]

Which one is Russian, which one is Ukrainian? You should see it and say it

he quite clearly said 'Anthropological' types, not genetic.

[andrzej]

You are exaggerating. Russian regions near Ukraine are not much different from Ukrainians in general. And, of course, this exaggeration is fuelled by political motives, who want to portray Ukrainians as Western Europeans, very different from their cousins the Russians. But reality says otherwise.

Definitely not *just* western, but different because of more Western, Steppe, Balkan, and Caucaus influence. Do these Central Ukrainians look Russian to you?

Spoiler!

I know phenotype is not genotype, but the ancestry of Ukrainians is clearly different than Russians and has created different phenotypes. However many Ukrainian groups which are more Mediterranean-oriented have become Russified like the Kuban Cossacks. So Russification and Ukrainization have made the two groups a bit more similar than they were in the past. You also have to note that the Ukrainian genotype is only now being fully studied, most of what we know of Ukraine was from Ukrainians in north-west Ukraine and Carpathians.

Ukrainians have more actual Iranic ancestry that's influenced their appearances, not to mention other things like Vlach and Thracian. But also the genetic input than it is because Slavs in general have been influenced by Iranic groups. Also Iranic groups shared a lot of the same Indo-European ancestry as the more Baltic-like Slavs and shared a lot of the same ancestry, despite groups like Scythians having more Neolithic Middle Eastern ancestry and East Eurasian ancestry influencing their looks, which those looks are clear in many Ukrainians (Pontids and Steppe Pontids). And also as mentioned, due to Ukraine being in the Eurasian steppes, Ukraine has had a lot of admixture of different steppe people including Turkic and Mongol people. From historical times with the Scythians we already see East Eurasian admixture and then in the Medieval Era the Kievan Rus had many relations with Turkic people, there was absorption of various Turkic and Steppe people both into the nobility and common folk.

Torks (Cyrillic: торки, literally "Turks", also known as Torkils[citation needed]) were a Medieval Turkic tribe of Oghuz[1] and/or Kipchak[2] origins. The Torks, alongsides Kipchaks (e.g. Berendei), and other tribes like Ulichi, Pechenegs, etc., formed the Chornye Klobuki ("Black Hats", Turkic Karakalpak), semi-nomadic tribes who fought as border guards for various princes of Kievan Rus.
In 1177 a Cuman army, allied with Ryazan, sacked six cities belonging to the Berendei and Torks.

Chorni Klobuky or Chornye Klobuki, meaning "black hats" (from Russian: Чёрные клобуки, romanized: Chërnyye klobuki and Ukrainian: Чорні клобуки, romanized: Chorni klobuky) was a generic name[1] for a group of semi-nomadic Turkic tribes of Berendei, Torki, Kovui of Chernihiv, Pechenegs, and others[2] that at the end of 11th century settled on the southern frontier of Kiev and Pereyaslav principalities along the Ros River valley.[2][3]

Black hoods , or Torks , in Russian chronicles, were called nomadic people of Turkic origin - Berendeyev (Berendichiv) [5] . According to historian A.I. Fursov , black hoods were the harbingers of the Cossacks . The zone they occupied along the Dnieper , Stugna and Ros rivers was a buffer between the nomads and Russia [6] .
...
For the first time in historical sources that have survived to this day, the name “black hoods” was mentioned in the Ipatiev Chronicle in 1146, and for the last time in 1196. According to the chronicle, the Black Klobuks included Torci , Pechenegs , Berendeys and Kovui (Kowi) . Also, the chronicle mentions the Turpeians once (1150), the Kaepichs (1160) and the Bastians twice (1170). The last mention of the Turkic vassals of the Kyiv princes in the chronicle dates back to 1235 and concerns the Torks.

In the Moscow chronicle of the 15th century, under the year 1152, the Black Klobuki are identified with the Cherkassy : “ All Black Klobuki are called Cherkasy .” Somewhat later, the same explanation was placed in the Resurrection Chronicle.

The very name of Torkov , Berendeyev , Kovuev and other tribes of Turkic origin who lived in the Kiev province disappeared from people's memory, although in the chronicle there are no traces of their departure or extermination, and many faces of the Little Russian [Ukrainian] Cossacks strongly resemble the Asian appearance of these disappeared peoples.

According to archaeological data, after the Mongol conquest, part of the black hoods were resettled by the Mongols to the Volga region and Moldova , and were included in the military-aristocratic structure of the Jochi ulus. However, the semi-sedentary and sedentary part of the Black Klobuks remained in Porosye and over time assimilated with the local Slavic population.

Then there is the Glinsk and Mansur Principality and the descendants of the Mamai and the settlement of Tatars in the region.

There is little doubt, that Glinski's - actually are the descendants of Mamai so their ancestral lands were not only granted to them, but developed out of their very own principality near Poltava. Moreover, it is conceivable that this principality did not appear out of nowhere, and on the northern edge of the territory of nomadic groups of Tatars, descendants of the Kipchaks, were subordinated by Mamai and his immediate ancestors. It is observed, that a certain degree of independence in the Glinski's in the XV and early XVI century could have its roots in the history of the Principality of Mansur.

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93...82%D0%B2%D0%BE

The Glyn principality, the Mansur principality is a Tatar - Severian [1] [2] [3] principality in the 14th-16th centuries in the north-east of Ukraine (mainly the Sumy and Poltava regions ). It was founded in 1380 by the son of Mamai Mansur from the Kiat family.

We see here that this was a principality made up of a mixture of the Slavic Severian tribe and presumably Nogay or other descendants of Kipchaks.

In 1159, Chernihiv Prince Svyatoslav Olhovych 's response to Kyiv Prince Izyaslav Davidovych's threat of expulsion from Chernihiv after his refusal to help in the war against Volhynia Prince Mstislav Izyaslavych and Galician Prince Yaroslav Osmomysl reflects the devastation of at least the Russian land of the left-bank Naddniepr region and its settlement by Polovtsians . One of the oldest and richest cities of the Dnipro region - Ljubech - is present among the seven deserted towns in the Chernihiv region inhabited by the Polovtsy . [4]

Polovtsy are Cumans.

Mamai lost the battle of Kulikovo in 1380 to the troops of the Moscow prince Dmitry Donsky due to the delay of Lithuanian aid. In 1381, Mamai was killed by the Genoese in Kafi [5] . After the murder of Mamai-Kiyat, one of his sons Mansur-Kiyat (Mansur Kiyatovych Mamai), fearing the repressions of the new khan, left the Crimea and went to his native Polovtsian steppes (the northern part of the Black Sea and Nadozivya), from where, having gathered troops, he marched on the north in order to create his new principality.

On the territory of modern Sumy and Poltava regions, Mansur Mamai restored several cities: Glynsk , Glynnytsia, Poltava , and declared these lands his possessions, independent of neighboring states. This formation included one of the southern groups of sivryuks of the interfluve of the Vorskla River, Sula, in the Poltava region [6] .

Later, the possessions of the Mamai princes expanded and actually included the southern parts of Chernihiv Oblast and Sumy Oblast in the north; in the east - modern Kursk, Bilhorod and Kharkiv regions; in the west - the left bank of the Cherkasy region. After that, the possessions of the Glynskys became huge, and the princes themselves became the most influential feudal lords of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania . Since these lands were the border of the Slavic and Turkic peoples, their population was not distinguished by ethnic unity, however, the descendants of the Northerners , as well as the Polovtsians , mostly settled here . Since the 15th century, the Sivryuks, thanks to their stable migration, began to assimilate the Polovtsian and Turkic populations [7] .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_Mamay

Also of course these and other border populations and Slavs living in the steppes began to intermix with different Steppe people whether Turkic, Caucaus, Iranic, or Germanic. This mixture formed the basis for the birth of the Zaporzhian Cossacks. Slavic was a lingua-franca in the Steppes also don't forget. After the establishment of the Cossacks as a people they also straight up absorbed Tatars. Many lone Cossack bands were seen to be living with Turkic and Steppe nomads.

There were Slavic cities already in the Steppes and part of Kievan Rus, and in Crimea. But even when Rus began to disintegrate Slavic tribes were found through out the Steppes intermixing with different people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodnici

Attempts have been made to associate them to better known neighbouring populations, different authors classifying them as Slavs or Iranian, or perhaps mixed ethnic stock: Romanian-Slavic[2] or Turko-Slavic.[4]

or
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91...B8%D0%BA%D0%B8

Russian chronicles often mention berladniki and cities near the Danube. The Ipatiev Chronicle mentions the war of 1159 between Prince Yaroslav of Galich and his cousin Ivan Berladnik. “Ivan rinsed the horse into the field to the Polovtsians... and a hundred in the cities of the Danube...” [2] . “And when many Polovtsians and Berladniks came to him, they redeemed (collected) 6,000”

This is Ivan IV speaking to the Nogai murzas about Cossack bands forming from a mixture of independent bands of Nogay in what is now the Donetsk and Luhansk region.

And you know a lot, where there are no bad guys. Many Cossacks, many Kazan, Azov, Crimean and other favorites go to the field. And our Ukrainians mingle with them, and those people are like your fathers ... and robbers, and no one teaches them how to be brave, but after committing such a brave thing (trouble - author), they leave their lands ...

A western historian in this region of the Steppes wrote:

And on the way between him and his father, we felt great fear: it was the [Ruthenians], [Magyars], and Alans, their slaves [Tatars], the number of whom they have is very large, now 20 or 30 people are gathering, running out at night with quivers and bows and killing anyone who is caught at night. During the day they hide, and when the horses get tired of them, they go to herds of horses in the pastures at night, exchange horses, and take one or two with them to eat if necessary. Our guide was very afraid of such a meeting.

After Zaporzhian and Don Cossacks absorbed these fringe mixed Cossack groups and the Nogay too.

So the process of absorbing Steppe groups was continuous until the Cossacks became peasants and even then there was absorption of groups such as Kalmyks.

The point I'm trying to make is that Turkic and other Steppe ancestry has also influenced Ukrainians greatly, which is many Ukrainians have such looks that some Russians seem to be obsessed with. They exist among Russians as well which is the thing they don't tell you, just obviously not as much:

http://slavanthro.mybb3.ru/viewtopic...asc&start=7425

Spoiler!

[Ugo]

...
[/spoiler]

Nonsense. The steppe people had almost no influence on the Ukrainians. Ukrainian dark appearance from Southern European admixture. Steppe people in Ukraine are a minor.

[Ugo]

he quite clearly said 'Anthropological' types, not genetic.

Things get crazy when Ukrainians see PCA. Your proximity to the Russians makes you cringe. Even a Pecheneg, as long as it’s not Russian. As a descendant of Ukrainians, I do not agree with you. There is nothing steppe or Turkic about me. My grandmother was super Caucasian and fair.

[Loki]

^ Well half of those pics could be Russians, it's really not that easy to tell. Perhaps averages yes. But when it comes to individuals, it's hard to tell the difference.

[Leto]

I don't agree. My ancestors clearly understand who they are and their mixtures. My 1/4 Ukrainian admixture is clearly differentiated in my family. My grandfather, who married a Ukrainian, clearly understood that he was Russian, and my grandmother understood that she was Ukrainian. Together they hated blacks and Mongoloids.

Prior to 1991 that was not a political issue. Russians and Ukrainians would happily marry each other and none of such people considered themselves "mixed" or anything like that. It's like being half Bavarian and half Saxon in Germany or maybe half Irish half Scottish in Britain.

[andrzej]

Also in addition some Eastern Ukrainians who are apparently indistinguishable from Central Russians:

[andrzej]

^ Well half of those pics could be Russians, it's really not that easy to tell. Perhaps averages yes. But when it comes to individuals, it's hard to tell the difference.

I agree, the overlap between Russians and Ukrainians is huge but there are huge differences too. And it gets much different in the south and south-west.