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OK.
It would hardly make sense for them to acquire some knowledge about the ancient Greek religion and start practicing it themselves, as Byzantine influence was obviously Christian.I meant after they penetrated the Byzantine areas south of the Jirecek line including Greece itself.
Interesting or not, they seem completely out of place.That I know and that is understandable in the context of Christianity. But I wonder whether also their pagan scholars may have adopted one or another thing, idea and term. The Kunstmann elaborations on Arkona and Rethra are at least interesting. I don't know if you can read them.
Since I am too lazy to search for it myself I'm just gonna post what someone else has posted on one of polish main historical forum:I myslef can not assess these things but if I get scholars right they claim this linguistic proximity for the very early times already, not after any Czech reign of Lusatia but also regarding the Sorbs in the whole area depicted in this Polish map.
The linguistic diversification of the Slavic dialects/languages:
The common theory is that the Czechs (or should I say people who became Czechs after settling there) encountered the Celts in Bohemia. Also, moving through the Central European plain from the Vistula to Połabie is much simpler due to there being no mountain ranges in the path than moving through Moravia, Bohemia and then though the Sudetes/Ore mountains into Połabie. And it would make no sense for people to acquire Germanic genetic influence in Bohemia and not in Połabie.Czechs encountered lots of Germanics in Bohemia and it has changed the genetics of this Slavs and this may well have been restricted to those early Slavs who stayed and mixed there and not to those moving on further. So that genetic difference is zero disproval.
Slavs most likely spread out in waves following the Hunnic invasion (which pushed the Germanics west and among others led to the destruction of the Ermanaric's state empire).Yes, and also when Avars defeated Franks in 566 in Thurigia (as a kind of revenge for having been there in a battle at abt. 562) there is a more intense Slavic settlement visible east of the Saale river and if we think of where the Avars were based it's not that far fetched that they more dirigated Slavs that were closer to them in Pannonia than some far away "virgin" Lechitc Slavs from the middle Vistula.
It's highly unlikely noone before would see such an obvious mistake. On top of this (like I've said) the assumption that "White Croats" means one group of people - or that it is actually a proper name for any people - and that there's one basic source for the name is most likely wrong.I know that this is unheard of and thus I did not ask if anyone heard of it. I asked if someone knows what exactly is written in the Greek sources that all do refer to.
I know but this is also irrelevant to me. I wanted to check this point of Kunstmann for seeing if he's reliable when referring to facts and I thought it should be possible to simply check this thing.
But it very much sounds like a typical "what if we claim that something should be read differently" folk etymologies.A lingusitic comparison does not require that things are contemporarily used. Just if you say that vel(k)o did only later get the referred to meaning it would de-legitimise the consideration.
Like I've said, it's not only Greek spelling you would have to look at.It's not about abt. b-v change but about a possible - I don't know, this is why I ask - b/v ambigousity in Greek spelling.
The problem is that even "Great Croatia" means really nothing. It does not make it any more obvious which place would it allude to.No, he states it's written correctly and it is written Vel(k)o-.
So - like I've said - the whole theory sounds like typical "what if".
ej bi si di i ef dżi ejdż aj dżej kej el em en oł pi kju a es ti ju wi dablju eks łaj zet
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It could theoretically even explain the elevated pigmentation in Bohemia, Moravia, Upper Saxony, Thuringia and Southern Saxony-Anhalt, something that I hitherto explained by a notable pre population since LBK times. This area also has a somewhat elevated culture density.
Of course, this would require Slavs to have picked up a notable part of folks from their way through the south and considering the genetics of the Krakauer Berg samples I somewhat dought that explanation. But we have to be open minded for different possibilities, I think.
I just today came across Božena Němcová - born in Vienna as Barbara Nowotny - and I find her look like a concentrate of what type I refer to:
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Target: rothaer_scaled
Distance: 1.0091% / 0.01009085
39.8 (Balto-)Slavic
39.0 Germanic
19.2 Celtic-like
1.8 Graeco-Roman
0.2 Finnic-like
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"Some" influence is not the same as "Slavs migrated from the South". Also remember that not everything was evolving linguistically at the same pace.
On the other hand how many lists of early Slavic names do we have?And as for Derwan the problem remains that the occurance is unparalelled among the Slavic names. This is unexplainable if it would be "normal" to call someone after drew/wood. And I think that "Dervanus" is documented one time only, if I got it right.
ej bi si di i ef dżi ejdż aj dżej kej el em en oł pi kju a es ti ju wi dablju eks łaj zet
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"3:16 For YHWH so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.."
#GodWins
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True.
Might there also have been pagan Greeks still at abt. 550? Julian Apostata that became ceasar in 355 was pagan. Where the Greeks at the Tiras/Dnjestr f. i. in Tiraspol, also Christians? They could have been encountered very early by Slavs and the were to my knowledge not part of Byzance.
Yes.
Thanks.
I can not imagine that that is a common theory because the last time Celts were mentioned in that area were at the Markomannic Wars (the Cotini in 171) and there were no Celts heard of since then, so roughly 400 years without any mentioned Celts (they will have been assimilated by the Germanics).
Yes, it would have been but whatever we assume, it's an undeniable fact that it were the Avars that came to the Saale river in 562 and 566.
Spoiler!
It would make sense as there are known to have been a lot of Germanics in Central Bohemia which has a very fertile land, when Slavs arrived. As for the Sorb area the conditions are unknown. And as for Brandenburg and Mecklenburg (not sure as for Pomearnia and Lower Silesia) there becomes more and more confirmed that there was a settlemt hiatus from abt. 550 till abt. 670. This implies that it's even proven that the Lechitic Slavs had not come to these areas in spite of that if was very simple while Bohemia and the later Sorb area already harboured Slavs for roughly 100 years.
Nothing of this is my question. Again, I wanted to get to know if such an information by Kunstmann is simply wrong or not.
Target: rothaer_scaled
Distance: 1.0091% / 0.01009085
39.8 (Balto-)Slavic
39.0 Germanic
19.2 Celtic-like
1.8 Graeco-Roman
0.2 Finnic-like
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I fully agree and I also don't state so. My question is where Kunstmann could have a point and where not. As for those areas that are depicted as Lechitic in the OP map I exclude a substantial contribution of other Slavs than Lechits. But some ruling Obotrite dynasties could have had an intra-Slavic southern migration background.
Mostly just later ones. It's rare that name types vanish but admittedly this happens sometimes. F. i. the Gothic names Ostrogotha and Kniva that are mentioned by Jordanes in his Getica have been regarded as odd and fabulous. But by the newly found palimpsest in Vienna that contains a fragment of - likely - Dexippos, a contemporary Greek historian, such Gothic warlords from the 3rd century are mentioned and thus confirmed to be historical individuals.
https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/imafo/rese...-vindobonensia
Last edited by rothaer; 02-25-2024 at 12:47 AM.
Target: rothaer_scaled
Distance: 1.0091% / 0.01009085
39.8 (Balto-)Slavic
39.0 Germanic
19.2 Celtic-like
1.8 Graeco-Roman
0.2 Finnic-like
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This whole theory sounds like complete nonsense
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A quick search says that the Roman control of Tyras lasted until the late 4th century, which would suggest the people there were indeed Christian. But I cannot guarantee it.
I was thinking of a genetic ancestry so maybe I'm mistaken here.I can not imagine that that is a common theory because the last time Celts were mentioned in that area were at the Markomannic Wars (the Cotini in 171) and there were no Celts heard of since then, so roughly 400 years without any mentioned Celts (they will have been assimilated by the Germanics).
At this moment I cannot respond to this because I would have to look up some things before (and this may take a while).Yes, it would have been but whatever we assume, it's an undeniable fact that it were the Avars that came to the Saale river in 562 and 566. It would make sense as there are known to have been a lot of Germanics in Central Bohemia which has a very fertile land, when Slavs arrived. As for the Sorb area the conditions are unknown. And as for Brandenburg and Mecklenburg (not sure as for Pomearnia and Lower Silesia) there becomes more and more confirmed that there was a settlemt hiatus from abt. 550 till abt. 670. This implies that it's even proven that the Lechitic Slavs had not come to these areas in spite of that if was very simple while Bohemia and the later Sorb area already harboured Slavs for roughly 100 years.
However seeing how Lusitia is located right at the border of the Central European plain and Bohemia I don't deny there may have been both directions of migration (to the west through the Central European plain and south-east to north-west from Bohemia).
ej bi si di i ef dżi ejdż aj dżej kej el em en oł pi kju a es ti ju wi dablju eks łaj zet
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They could have.
At this moment I am also not able to say more about the Derwan name so as to be able to either confirm or deny either possibility.Mostly just later ones. It's rare that name types vanish but admittedly this happens sometimes. F. i. the Gothic names Ostrogotha and Kniva that are mentioned by Jordanes in his Getica have been regarded as weird and mythical. But by the newly found palimpsest in Vienna that contains a fragment of - likely - Dexippus, a contemporary Greek historian - respectively named Gothic warlords from the 3rd century are mentioned and thus confirmed to be historical individuals.
https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/imafo/rese...-vindobonensia
ej bi si di i ef dżi ejdż aj dżej kej el em en oł pi kju a es ti ju wi dablju eks łaj zet
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K36
Distance to: DE_52?11′N_14?15′E_Sorb1
0.10770330 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
7.00553353 Ukrainian
7.14345155 Ukrainian_Central
7.39478871 Polish_South
7.42142170 Carpathian_Rusyns
7.42649985 Polish_SE_Carpathia
7.45178502 Belarusian_Polesia
7.45297927 Ukrainian_East
7.65416880 Polish-2
8.06194766 Belarusian_West
8.07997525 Polish_Upper_Silesia
8.12200714 Polish
8.48737297 Polish_Mazovia
8.48788548 Upper_Silesia
8.90454940 Slovak
8.92827531 Russian_Bryansk
9.03164990 Slovak-2
9.04908835 Polish_Kashubian
9.15174300 Polish_Wielkopolska
9.60656546 Belarusian_East
9.65610170 Russian_Oryol
9.76026127 Czech_Bohemia
9.88852365 Russian_Don_Cossack
10.05412851 Russian_Smolensk
10.31234697 Russian_Voronezh
Distance to: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb2
10.92300783 Polish_SE_Carpathia
11.79121707 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
12.54427359 Belarusian_West
12.71801478 Polish-2
12.98481421 Polish_Kashubian
13.09470122 Polish_Upper_Silesia
13.17184877 Cossack_Ukrainian
13.25705473 Belarusian_Polesia
13.25719804 Polish_Mazovia
13.56495853 Polish_South
13.65227454 Polish_North
13.72568395 Polish
14.04487095 Polish_Wielkopolska
14.34697529 Ukrainian
14.44625903 German_West_Prussia
14.51559506 Russian_Voronezh
14.52057506 Russian_Smolensk
14.57669716 Ukrainian_West
14.71237914 Belarusian_East
14.75168126 Russian_Tambov
14.80271259 Russian_Don_Cossack
14.86431633 Ukrainian_East
15.03084163 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
15.05289009 Ukrainian_Central
15.08407107 Upper_Silesia
Distance to: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb3
12.72809098 Russian_Don_Cossack
12.79257597 Slovak
13.13190009 Upper_Silesia
13.20941710 Ukrainian
13.35716662 Slovak-2
13.40313769 Russian_Tver
13.56859978 Polish_South
13.60886843 Ukrainian_Central
13.64358091 Russian_Oryol
13.79427417 Polish_Wielkopolska
14.01238381 Ukrainian_West
14.10685649 Polish
14.34584957 Polish_Upper_Silesia
14.41057598 Czech_Bohemia
14.77924558 Russian_Voronezh
14.86172265 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
14.91692663 Russian_Tambov
15.09363111 Polish-2
15.10775629 Carpathian_Rusyns
15.19323205 Belarusian_East
15.23086997 Czech
15.25557603 Polish_Kashubian
15.27340499 Ukrainian_East
15.42605912 Czech_Moravia
15.60321441 Russian_Kursk
Distance to: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb4
9.02028824 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
10.08619849 Polish_Kashubian
10.19370394 Polish_North
10.24472059 Polish-2
10.32362824 Polish_SE_Carpathia
10.58218786 Polish_Mazovia
10.63009878 Polish_Upper_Silesia
10.85553315 Polish
11.21173938 Ukrainian_West
11.33619425 Polish_South
11.59698237 Belarusian_West
11.88727891 Polish_Wielkopolska
12.09407293 German_West_Prussia
12.19155856 Ukrainian
12.42801271 Ukrainian_East
12.59390726 Belarusian_Polesia
12.72273555 Slovak
12.92041408 Ukrainian_Central
13.01710029 Russian_Don_Cossack
13.04944443 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
13.26792373 Czech
13.27510829 Czech_Bohemia
13.31838203 Czech_Moravia
13.32525797 Russian_Bryansk
13.33564772 Belarusian_East
Distance to: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb5
10.63851023 Ukrainian_Central
11.19544997 Ukrainian_East
11.61538204 Carpathian_Rusyns
11.94904599 Polish_South
12.18848637 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
12.44581456 Ukrainian
12.60095234 Polish_Upper_Silesia
12.64431888 Slovak
12.76754088 Slovak-2
12.77699887 Polish-2
13.05958652 Polish_Wielkopolska
13.15944148 Belarusian_Polesia
13.37352983 Ukrainian_West
13.55568884 Polish_SE_Carpathia
13.60616404 Polish_Mazovia
13.71860780 Polish
13.73819857 Russian_Oryol
13.75628584 Polish_Kashubian
14.00993576 Czech_Moravia
14.05341595 Czech_Bohemia
14.29722351 Belarusian_West
14.56625209 Belarusian_East
14.67471294 Polish_North
14.70737910 Upper_Silesia
14.73562011 Russian_Don_Cossack
Target: DE_52?11′N_14?15′E_Sorb1
Distance: 7.5365% / 0.07536544 | ADC: 0.25x
99.0 German_Brandenburg_outlier(Beeskow)
1.0 Ukrainian
Target: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb2
Distance: 844.7838% / 8.44783834 | ADC: 0.25x
36.4 Polish_Sudovia
24.0 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
17.4 Cossack_Ukrainian
10.0 Spanish_Cantabria
6.2 Latvian2
3.8 Spanish_North
2.2 Irish_Ulster
Target: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb3
Distance: 1032.5972% / 10.32597189 | ADC: 0.25x
53.4 Russian_Tver
17.4 German_Saxony-Anhalt_South
16.2 Ukrainian
4.6 Greek_Istanbul
4.4 North_Macedonian
4.0 Russian_Don_Cossack
Target: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb4
Distance: 614.6899% / 6.14689856 | ADC: 0.25x
53.8 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
33.8 Polish_Sudovia
9.2 Spanish_North
3.2 Basque
Target: DE_51?16′N_14?6′E_Sorb5
Distance: 946.8187% / 9.46818671 | ADC: 0.25x
55.4 Ukrainian_East
20.4 German_Saxony-Anhalt_South
9.2 Ukrainian_Central
8.0 Lithuanian
7.0 North_Macedonian-2
There is some weak signal, but I think it's more of a return movement.
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