Why do the English pass better in the Isles than anywhere else?

[Watersater79]

Another example is Aaron Ramsdale, never in a million years would I ever think he's Irish.

I never denied that there are a shit-tonne of English who pass better in NW Germany than in Wales. My point is that the English actually look very distinctive on average, with many struggling to pass in Wales in the same way they would in the Netherlands, but if push comes to shove, there would be a greater chance of them passing (albei atypically) in the former the latter. It was definitely confirmation bias that pushed many to just lump the English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh together as being one homogeneous phenotypical ‘blob’ (even when people would take into account all the Germanic phenotypes).

[Watersater79]

Not that true at all! Although I do agree that there is a “universal British” look, from which foreigners (like myself) recognize British Islanders whether from England, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. However, there are also great differences within them, in my own experience a very Germanic-looking English native from perhaps Eastern England passes much better in Norway, Denmark, Northwestern Germany, the Netherlands and Flanders (België) than they’d do anywhere in Ireland. The English aren’t identical to the Irish. In fact even up to 80 years ago, there were stereotypes based on the different looks from people of Wales, Scotland and Ireland in England. There also plenty of Irish people in England today than there was 80 years ago.

This Englishman looks so much like people from Northern Germany than people from Ireland.
https://d2bs1f9gm0bm2l.cloudfront.ne...es-320x467.jpg
Denmark
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/G6J7TT/iai...cup-G6J7TT.jpg

I would say those Germanic-looking types are not representative of the English average. It goes without saying the average Englishman is some kind of Kelto-Saxon.

[Ketchup]

Not that true at all! Although I do agree that there is a “universal British” look, from which foreigners (like myself) recognize British Islanders whether from England, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. However, there are also great differences within them, in my own experience a very Germanic-looking English native from perhaps Eastern England passes much better in Norway, Denmark, Northwestern Germany, the Netherlands and Flanders (België) than they’d do anywhere in Ireland. The English aren’t identical to the Irish. In fact even up to 80 years ago, there were stereotypes based on the different looks from people of Wales, Scotland and Ireland in England. There also plenty of Irish people in England today than there was 80 years ago.

This Englishman looks so much like people from Northern Germany than people from Ireland.
https://d2bs1f9gm0bm2l.cloudfront.ne...es-320x467.jpg
Denmark
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/G6J7TT/iai...cup-G6J7TT.jpg

That Englishman you posted isn't typical I'd say. He's in the range but more rarer. I don't see many of those types at all amongst the White Canadians here who are of UK stock but it does happen occasionally.

[Oliver109]

That Englishman you posted isn't typical I'd say. He's in the range but more rarer. I don't see many of those types at all amongst the White Canadians here who are of UK stock but it does happen occasionally.

I would say that you see his type more among upper middle class people in the south, he appears to play rugby in Bath and has a posh name, working class people don't usually look as German.

[AngloEd]

England over the last 200 years or so, during the industrial revolution, received loads of migration from Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Genetic tests that have been done regarding the makeup of the british isles use parameters such as having all four grandparents be born in a small radius. This excludes a lot of people. And so the genetic tests regarding the English genetic makeup, are done on people who are 100% English or close to it.

Thus it doesnt reflect the general white british population in England, who are a mix of English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish.

[Creoda]

The English derive their genomic makeup from the Anglo-Saxon migrations on one hand (the largest plurality), with the remaining (approximate) 60% being roughly split between a vaguely known French source, and the 'native' Britons. Although the Anglo-Saxons came from NW Germany (and a bit of southern Denmark), the English are genetically closest to the Dutch more than anyone else, and I get that is down to the Germanic overlap as well as the fact that the ancestors of the native Britons themselves first migrated over from the modern day Netherlands in the Bell Beaker period? All that said and done, on average, I think one would agree the English (in terms of facial features, facial robustness is another matter) still look more similar to the Irish than the Dutch, even though they are genetically far closer to the latter. The question is I wonder why, if the English only derive 30% of their genome from the Isles, they still look most similar to those native to the Isles? It appears that the English overlap the least (in terms of facial features) with the French in this regard (of the three contributing groups). I guess if 60% of your genome is derived from non-Germanic sources you would find it easier to pass in Ireland than the Netherlands, but also if 70% of your genome is derived from a combination of that Germanic component alongside the native British element, then you will far more northern-shifted than most French.
I don't think we appreciate how fascinating the admixture of the historic English genome is (I do, ofc, take into account the shit-tonne of Welsh, Scottish and Irish immigration that has taken place to England over the last 200 years, but even then, I must reiterate, whilst a 100% English person would likely just look distinctly 'English', he would pass with far more ease in Limerick than Groningen).

The average Englishman may pass better among the Irish than the Dutch but personally (as someone who is half and half) I think the relative similarity between the English and Irish on the whole is bit overrated on this forum - and to some extent in real life (due to the large amount of Irish/Gaelic blood in England since the 19th century, that is now mostly integrated).

I assume the reason for the disparity between genetic and phenotypical distances in this instance is because the English have more recent ancestry in common with the Irish and other Insular Celts than with the Dutch. Everyone from the British Isles has basically the same ancestors 2500 years ago, just in different proportions. Everyone who went to Ireland came through Britain/England first. To start with you have the common Bell Beaker origin (who survived more across the Isles than in the Netherlands, see the R-L21 frequency). Then you have the Celtic Britons, who must have invaded Ireland en masse and spawned the Gaels. Then there is the Danish and Norwegian Vikings, who had a similar influence in both countries at the same time. Then there is the Normans, and the Anglo-Normans permanently connected England and Ireland politically and demographically, such that most Irish have non-negligible English ancestry from medieval and early modern times. Then there is the aforementioned mass Irish immigration to England since the 19th century, to the point where most Irish descendants in England are socially just seen as English (unless they make a point of saying they're not).

By contrast the English and Dutch don't have as much direct connection in terms of migrations, their genetic closeness is almost coincidental, from similar proportions of Germanic, Celtic and Bell Beaker. The closest direct connection would be the Frisians, who share the same Anglo-Saxon paternal lineage from 1600 years ago, but they are not that close to the English in genetic distance, not like people from South Holland or North Brabant anyway.

[Creoda]

England over the last 200 years or so, during the industrial revolution, received loads of migration from Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Genetic tests that have been done regarding the makeup of the british isles use parameters such as having all four grandparents be born in a small radius. This excludes a lot of people. And so the genetic tests regarding the English genetic makeup, are done on people who are 100% English or close to it.

Thus it doesnt reflect the general white british population in England, who are a mix of English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish.

Exactly. Half the time people post 'classify English actor' etc on this forum it's someone with an Irish, Scottish, or Welsh surname. Celebrities and sportspeople who are most visible are even more mixed than the average.

[Oliver109]

Exactly. Half the time people post 'classify English actor' etc on this forum it's someone with an Irish, Scottish, or Welsh surname. Celebrities and sportspeople who are most visible are even more mixed than the average.

Wouldn't a pure English person be quite a rare thing? considering how Scots, Irish and Welsh have been moving all over the UK for hundreds of years.

[Septentrion]

I would say those Germanic-looking types are not representative of the English average. It goes without saying the average Englishman is some kind of Kelto-Saxon.

I think that it is a problem of terminology that we got. The "typical" Englishman is the one who looks Germanic! While the one who may pass as Welsh, Scottish or Irish is just "universal British". I don't know where you've been in England, as far I know and is well acquainted with the English people, there are plenty of them who look Germanic. I'm not by any means saying that they look 100% Germanic either, but distinctive enough to tell them from the Irish or Scottish. The Irish are not identical to the English. They are slightly but at the same time consistently paler-complected, more freckled, darker or more ginger-haired, more blue-eyed as well. The Scottish in a similar fashion, but less so than the Irish probably depending where their regional ancestry is from in Scotland. However to an outsider, they might all look alike, I guess.

[Creoda]

Wouldn't a pure English person be quite a rare thing? considering how Scots, Irish and Welsh have been moving all over the UK for hundreds of years.

Depends what you mean by pure. If having 16/16 English great great grandparents counts, not at all rare, especially in the older generations.