Proto-Hungarian man best fit

[Blondie]

Serbian controversial historian Jovan Deretić claimed that Slavs and others in Pannonia adopted Magyar language on the initiative of Roman church.

That doesnt really makes sense. In the medieval age, everyone had class identity, the nobles did not give a fuck about the peasants language.

The genetic studies dont disprove Dual conquest theory.

Actually avars had pretty different paternal origin. It was not so similar to conquerors. The early avars were almost completely mongoloid, unlike magyars who were mostly turanid, europid-mongoloid mixed. I dont see much similarity between avars and magyars, except the nomad culture. They were not same for sure.

Why, because grave remains of Hungarian commoners taken from just within a few hundred years
of the Conquerors arrival pretty much show same DNA averages of todays Hungarians.

These are obviously hungarus graves. The most possible theory is the wars with franks and others significantly reduced the avar population in Alföld. The migration of magyars happened betwwen 7-9. century in many smaller or bigger waves to these areas and they became the hungarus folk (commoners) what Anonymus describes. These hungarus were mix of slavs, magyars and slavo-avars, and they spoked hungarian in general. But of course is just a theory.

Its possible the tribal confederation was bilingual , Ugric and Turkic speakers.

Actually its not really possible. First of all there were tribes who had turkic ethnic origin like kabars, their native language was turkic for sure, but in the case of other tribes? I dont think that, otherwise the ugric hungarian language would have disappeared. At this time almost every single east european steppe nomads were turkic speaker, so the turic language was more widespread. If nomad magyars were really bilingual and also native turkic speakers then it makes no sense to choose the rare ugric language instead of the more popular turkic. The only reason why the unique hungarian language was able to survive in the steppe is the 7 tribe were native hungarian speaker for sure, and they used the turkic as just lingua franca in the steppe like english today. After the colonization of Carpathian Basin there is no any source that magyars used any turkic language. The elite used latin, and even the turkic tribes like kabars have started to speak hungarian.

Quite possible Ugric speakers already travelled with the Bulgars during the Bulgar migration into Europe in the 7th century.
There is a connection between these migratory events and the peoples in both.

With bulgars? Bulgars migrated to the eastern part of Balkans and they established Bulgaria. Later Bulgaria conquered Transylvania and southern part of Alföld, so some bulgarian maybe migrated to Carpathian Basin at this time but their number was not significant for sure. For example Transylvania had most likely vlach majority, and Alföld had hungarus majority.
Btw its almost 100% possible that first magyars visited the Carpathian Basin in the 4. century along with huns. The hun-magyar mixing/relations in the South Ural is well documented. When huns migrated across Eurasia they gathered other steppe nomads including magyars too and they became part of these diverse hunnic tribes. This is how the whole hun-magyar kinship has started. After the defeat of huns, vast majority of them migrated back to East Europe, but maybe some small hunnic groups remained in the Carpathian Basis, you can read this in the origin myth of székelys too.

The point of the connection is that it is unlikely a small Political Military nomad elite will settle into a succesful nation state within 100 years that is granted by the Pope to be accepted as a European Kingdom.

To be honest its very possible if the nomad elite knew how to organize a state. If you look at East Europe at this time, you can see bulgar, khazar and magyar elite all claimed that they are sons of Attila and his empire. The state organization of these nomads is most likey hunnic and the Hun Empire was the idol. When Árpád arrived in the Carpathian Basin he conquered this land in the name of Attila. He said we just take back this country and Attila was the legitimization. After Hungary adopted western christianity and latin things, the Árpáds still insisted to Attila and his heritage although the "dog headed" huns were very unpopular in West.

[Scarface F]

Actually avars had pretty different paternal origin. It was not so similar to conquerors. The early avars were almost completely mongoloid, unlike magyars who were mostly turanid, europid-mongoloid mixed. I dont see much similarity between avars and magyars, except the nomad culture. They were not same for sure.

yeah this is correct

[Scarface F]

I think Transylvanian Hungarians Slavic part is mostly Bulgarian. Would explain why Szekelys are so Balkan shifted. Bulgarians are genetically similar to southern Romanians and more southern European than Slavic. In Szeklerland were many Slavic and almost no Romance toponyms. Which implies Szekelys absorbed Bulgarian Slavic speakers who already had genetic similar to Romanians.

[Scarface F]

Ethnic make up of present day Hungary before Magyars established own state is not clear. We have almost fully Slavic Belarusian like samples from Hungary in Avar period. That makes sense since history recorded Slavo-Avar alliance. What is odd that most (iirc) conquest era Hungarian commoner samples don't look like that and neither they look like modern Hungarians from genetic pov.

I saw tons of Arpadian era commoner samples that were mix of western Euro like (German) and semi- mongoloid (Magyar). They were not much Slavic, less than modern Hungarians and much less than Avar era samples. Ofc it can be sample bias or depend on location.

But it could mean, if these samples are representative, Pannonia had Germanic or German like population that admixed with Magyars and later was probably killed off in Mongol assault or something like that, and than Slavs and others re-populated Hungary.

Panonnia was Frankish for long, there were Gepids, Langobards, Goths....and it seems Arpad era Hungarian peasants were more like a mix of western Europeans and conquerors than Slavs.

[Scarface F]

There is another thing to consider; native northern Croats (Kajkavians) are probably Pannonian Slavs who were later croatised. They cluster with Czeho-Slovaks. They are probably Slavic population that fled Panonnia in front of Magyars. Northern Croats are probably descendants of Balaton principality Slavs and we have records that say how Slavs from north fled to Croatia in time of Magyar conquest.

Ofc, I am not saying all Slavs fled Pannonia in front of Magyars lol, but seems lot of them did and it might explain why Arpadian era commoners were not so Slavic.

[Scarface F]

Looks Slavic or Baltic

nope

[Varda]

Serbian controversial historian Jovan Deretić claimed that Slavs and others in Pannonia adopted Magyar language on the initiative of Roman church. Without that Magyar warriors which conquered Pannonia would be linguistically slavized with time same as Bulgars in eastern Balkans, because both Magyars and Bulgars eere small minority in the Slavic 'sea.'

@Blondie

I never said Ugric speakers maybe travelled with Bulgars. Post that you quote is no mine, up is my original post.

[dviz]

OP man looks like a Russian with Uralic ancestry. His phenotype is not common in Hungary.

[Varda]

Ethnic make up of present day Hungary before Magyars established own state is not clear. We have almost fully Slavic Belarusian like samples from Hungary in Avar period. That makes sense since history recorded Slavo-Avar alliance. What is odd that most (iirc) conquest era Hungarian commoner samples don't look like that and neither they look like modern Hungarians from genetic pov.

I saw tons of Arpadian era commoner samples that were mix of western Euro like (German) and semi- mongoloid (Magyar). They were not much Slavic, less than modern Hungarians and much less than Avar era samples. Ofc it can be sample bias or depend on location.

But it could mean, if these samples are representative, Pannonia had Germanic or German like population that admixed with Magyars and later was probably killed off in Mongol assault or something like that, and than Slavs and others re-populated Hungary.

Panonnia was Frankish for long, there were Gepids, Langobards, Goths....and it seems Arpad era Hungarian peasants were more like a mix of western Europeans and conquerors than Slavs.

Is there any autosomally tested early Magyar sample?

[Live The Magic]

nope

Well yes, in Croatia probably wouldn't pass. However he looks pretty much like older and a bit darker version of one of my Czech friend.