Genetic portrait of Piast Dynasty

[rothaer]

The Piast Dynasty versus the elites



and vs early Polish Slavs.

Conclusion: Piasts and Polish elites were notably Germanic shifted compared to early Polish Slavs (as well as to modern Poles after I know where they do plot in the North Europe PCA).

What is meant by Polish Vikings, Viking Age samples from Poland?

[Peterski]

We don't know which samples are Piasts and Polish elites. We will know this only after the publication in Nature Communications. Piasts intermarried a lot with German and other western princesses so it is no surprise that they are Germanic-shifted.

[rothaer]

According to Figlerowicz the main line of Piasts was R1b-S747 (in ancient DNA found among the Picts, today mainly in the UK):

[R1b-S747 is also known as R1b-L1335]

It likely hails from the local population then, not from the immigrating Slavs. Whether it initially was provided by Lusatian culture folks, Celts or Germanics seems unclear. However, from the common perception at the time of the Slavic expansion there were no Lusatian culture or Celts left in the area in question but just Germanics, that had assimilated them. This would implicate that the Piast haplogroup was eventually mediated via Germanics to the early Slavs.

[Peterski]

It likely hails from the local population then, not from the immigrating Slavs. Whether it initially was provided by Lusatian culture folks, Celts or Germanics seems unclear. However, from the common perception at the time of the Slavic expansion there were no Lusatian culture or Celts left in the area in question but just Germanics, that had assimilated them. This would implicate that the Piast haplogroup was eventually mediated via Germanics to the early Slavs.

Or do I miss something?

Yes this is one of possibilities. Originally it probably came to Poland with Celts, just like my haplogroup R1b-L617.

Another possibility (mentioned during that conference which I attented) is that some Pictish refugees came to Poland in the 9th century, when Pictland was being attacked by Gaels and fell to the Gaels (who created Scotland after Pictland ceased to exist).

There are of course also many other possibilities.

There is a possibility that Slavs absorbed and Slavicized some Celts already back in Ukraine, because Celts were also in Ukraine.

[rothaer]

We don't know which samples are Piasts and Polish elites. We will know this only after the publication in Nature Communications. Piasts intermarried a lot with German and other western princesses so it is no surprise that they are Germanic-shifted.

True. Already Vladislav Herman had one grandmother from Lotharingia and his grandfather Mieszko II Lambert had a mother Emnilda of Lusatia that had a Germanic first name. I didn't check Vladislv Herman's mother from Kiev but there could be some Germanic ancestry as well considering the early Rus.

It would be a desiderate to target Mieszko I.

[rothaer]

Yes this is one of possibilities. Originally it probably came to Poland with Celts, just like my haplogroup R1b-L617.

Another possibility (mentioned during that conference which I attented) is that some Pictish refugees came to Poland in the 9th century, when Pictland was being attacked by Gaels and fell to the Gaels (who created Scotland after Pictland ceased to exist).

There are of course also many other possibilities.

There is a possibility that Slavs absorbed and Slavicized some Celts already back in Ukraine, because Celts were also in Ukraine.

This is why Occam's razor was needed and came into being.

[cass]

Conclusion: Piasts and Polish elites were notably Germanic shifted compared to early Polish Slavs (as well as to modern Poles after I know where they do plot in the North Europe PCA).

What is meant by Polish Vikings, Viking Age samples from Poland?

1. This is probably an oversimplification. The Piast dynasty’s family connections included all neighboring Christian peoples. Among the wives of the Piasts were Přemyslids, Rurikids, Ascanians, Gediminids, and Wettins. It is difficult to determine who exactly was buried in the other graves of the cathedrals in Płock and Kraków. They could possibly have been clergymen.

2. These individuals were probably buried with Viking equipment. Like those in Bodzia, they were likely Rurikids."

[cass]

It likely hails from the local population then, not from the immigrating Slavs. Whether it initially was provided by Lusatian culture folks, Celts or Germanics seems unclear. However, from the common perception at the time of the Slavic expansion there were no Lusatian culture or Celts left in the area in question but just Germanics, that had assimilated them. This would implicate that the Piast haplogroup was eventually mediated via Germanics to the early Slavs.

The composition of the cremated population of the Przeworsk culture remains entirely unknown. Among the individuals from Gąski, one has the profile of a continental Celt, while the other appears to be of insular Celtic origin.

[Peterski]

Yes it is uncertain if the Przeworsk culture (associated with the Lugians) was ever Germanized or not.

Prof. Gosciwit Malinowski thinks that the Vandals were never present in Przeworsk culture territory.

So maybe Slavs actually assimilated Celts (not Germanics) in southern Poland.

[Albannach]

Yes this is one of possibilities. Originally it probably came to Poland with Celts, just like my haplogroup R1b-L617.

Another possibility (mentioned during that conference which I attented) is that some Pictish refugees came to Poland in the 9th century, when Pictland was being attacked by Gaels and fell to the Gaels (who created Scotland after Pictland ceased to exist).

There are of course also many other possibilities.

There is a possibility that Slavs absorbed and Slavicized some Celts already back in Ukraine, because Celts were also in Ukraine.

It isn't even known if L1335 is Pictish, most Clans that are L1335 claim to be of Gaelic Dalriadan descent.