Afghan DNA discussion

[thisismyaccount]

@thisismyaccount

Before I lay out the evidence, I want to clear one thing up.

The one-line quote that I posted earlier (“AASI in Hindu Kush groups reflects deep pre-Bronze Age layers…”) was not a verbatim line from the paper. It was a summary my friend wrote for me when we were going through the supplement together. That’s on me. I took that off one of the emails he sent me. As I told you up front, this is what I learned from a friend who actually works for one of these labs, and he was kind enough to share this with me. As you are well aware on these forums, there is a great deal of misinformation, twisting of truth, and agendas. So I was for years so confused and did not know what and who to believe

Also to avoid any confusion moving forward, he and I sat down and went through the entire 400-page supplement again, and pulled out the actual, verifiable quotes, with page numbers. I hope you appreciate the effort and hopefully you will find the information useful and well worth the time.

Below is the complete, fully verifiable set of 8 quotes, each with the page number, the screenshot reference, and a short explanation of what the quote actually shows. You can check every single one yourself. Nothing here is opinion. Everything is straight out of the Narasimhan et al. 2019 supplement.

If, after reading these, you have counter-evidence, bring it. I’ll look at your questions. If not, then we should be honest about where the data actually points.

1.

Quote from Page 313, Section 6.2.4.2:





What this shows us:
This is the timeframe or timestamp. The mixture that defines SPGT, ie Pashtun population, happened in the Middle to Late Bronze Age, around 3,500 years ago. Not 500–1000 CE. Not medieval. Not Indian subcontinent mixing. The date itself rules out the entire “recent Indian” model. But there is more.

2.

Quote on Page 263, Section 4.4.4.1:





What this shows us:
These ancient Swat/Steppe Cline individuals pull toward Iranian-related ancestry, not Indian, and the paper even goes further, and states that their genetic arc is west and north, not into the subcontinent. This directly contradicts any claim that their South Asian component came from medieval Punjabis.

3.

Quote from Page 281 Section 5.2.3):





What this shows us:
The Steppe-related ancestry in the Pashtun ancestral line was simply not present inside the IVC core before 2000 BCE. Pashtun ancestry formed on a separate cline, outside the IVC heartland. They could not find it in individuals from the Indus. That is also the key. Indus has the same cline as other people from the Subcontinent, and Pashutns don't. Therefore, Different admixtures. Different history.

4.

Quote from Page 281, Section 5.2.3:





What this shows us:

This is the ingredients or recipe here.
AHG + Indus-Periphery + Steppe MLBA (Bronze Age).

Not medieval Indians. Not anything recent. This is a Bronze Age formation cline. Pashtuns sit on this older cline, not on the later Indian-subcontinent cline. This is another reaffirmation from their findings.

5.

Quote from Page 320, Section 7.3 :





What this shows us:
The AASI among is local to ancient Northwest South Asia. It wasn’t brought by Central Asians or Steppe groups. This AASI mixed in place, thousands of years ago long before anything medieval or recent. Remember when IVC came into being. The dates don't match.

6. This is the Mathematical proof that Pashtuns are NOT on the Indian-subcontinent cline

Quote from Page 284, Section 5.2.3:





What this shows us:
This is the killer and the smoking gun.
You cannot just take a modern Indian population and “adjust” it to get Pashtuns. The two clines are mathematically distinct and different. This shuts down the idea that Pashtuns = Indians + Steppe.

7.

Quote from Page 306, Section 5.11:







What these two show us:
Two completely different demographic histories.
Pashtun-related ancestry shows female-biased Steppe admixture.
Indian ANI formation shows male-biased Steppe admixture.
This reaffirms and confirms that: So even at the level of sex-biased admixture, these are not the same historical process. Different events, different populations, different outcomes.


8. Unique Iranian-borderland ancestry in the Indus Periphery

Quote from Page 215, Section 5.2.2:




What this shows us:
The West Eurasian ancestry feeding the Indus Periphery Cline (which then feeds into the Steppe Cline and thus into Pashtun-related groups) is a distinct Iranian-borderland type of ancestry: low Anatolian, high Iran_N/ChL. It is not the same as the West Eurasian ancestry profile deeper in the subcontinent, and not the same as the full Turan mix. It’s a particular frontier Iranian-plateau signature that Pashtuns still carry.


So here is the Conclusion:

This is everything my friend and I could pull directly out of the 400-page supplement, the actual lines, with actual page numbers, all screenshottable.

Put simply:

1. The main admixture happened approximately 1800 to 1500 BCE
2. The ancestry is aligned with Iran and Central Asia
3. The Steppe Cline does not match the Indian-subcontinent Cline
4. The AASI is ancient and local, not medieval
5. The demographic histories of Pashtun ancestors and Indian ancestors are different
6. The West Eurasian ancestry in Pashtuns is Iran-related, not Gangetic
7. And mathematically, Pashtuns cannot be modeled as “recently mixed Indians”

Man, wtf. I didn't knew you were THAT clueless.

SPGT are neither ancestral to Suleiman mountain pashtuns, nor refering to pashtuns. SPGT is entirely and only refering to swat locals, who are a dead end to everyone, not ANYONE LOCAL AND FROM MODERN ERA. NOT EVEN NARASIMHAN HAS EVER CONNECTED SPGT WITH PASHTUNS, HE ONLY CONNECTED SPGT WITH KALASH WHO ARE VERY INBRED AND IRRELEVANT TO PASHTUNS TOO.

Pashtuns haplogroups from mountains are either dravidian L clades from Suleiman mountains, indic R1a unrelated to even the R1a clades found in swat samples. Sometimes H clades too, from local indians, and then local J clades too. Finally we have pashtun G2b subclades and yaz iranic R1a clades. If pashtuns even had a bit ancestry from them, they would had picked the Q subclades found amongst the SPGT samples. They don't.

I know you're about to bring up this BS "but clades doesn't equal admixture!".

Yes, I know it doesnt 100% equal admixture. BUT IF PASHTUNS HAVE 0 ACTUAL SHARED SUBCLADES WITH SPGT, A DEAD END IN SOUTH ASIA, THEN IT'S CLEAR AS DAY AND NIGHT, ALONG WITH HISTORY, THAT PASHTUNS ARE NEITHER SPGT OR DESCENDED FROM THEM. SPGT IA is unique to itself, and not relevant or should be used for people alike pashtuns. At least perhaps one can say pashtuns that migrated from Zabul, through Kabul, to Swat, have mixed with the pre-pashtun locals there in 1500s.


Pashtuns have no historical presence in Swat until first 1300s.



As for AASI in Swat. You obviously have 0 idea, but swat lies on the slopes connected to the indian subcontinent:






Nowhere has Narasimhan even suggested AASI was present in hindukush prior iranian Neolithics. Nor did I claim central asians brought AASI, man, like wtf?

This is from his paper too, he rather refers all AASI indirectly as subcontinental:





Steppe mixed with AASI through Indus Valley. IVC migrants moved towards hindukush slopes in Swat. Where did anything you post disprove otherwise?

Not that it matters much anyways.


But man, wtf? You're seriously using a complete irrelevant group in case for pashtuns?! You and your friend must be the ONLY ONES to connect mountain pashtuns with SPGT like that.


I didn't even reply your other comments prior, because I wanted to see what you could present to me. Even the major misunderstanding of history you have.

It's even funny you bring up SPGT and claim there could be no "recent mixing from india", when even the SPGT Iron Age samples differ from the swat H samples, that clearly have both elevated steppe and AASI admixture too, due to the rise of buddhism in the area. Indian additional admixture from 300 BCE to 100 AD increased the AASI in swat.


And btw, when I say indian continent, I mean BOTH PAKISTAN AND INDIA.


I actually thought you had something proper, man


Just keep to the stuff you do know about.

[Negah]

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[thisismyaccount]

I know about that study bro, but pashtuns in Pakistan being lighter than balochis and Punjabis doesn't disprove they still assimilated Suleiman indics? What thisismyaccount is saying is that OG pashtuns completely lacked any south Asian phenotypes or very zagros/Baloch shifted individuals which can be easily found, if you look at Badakshi Tajiks from darwaz who possess very light phenotypes and continious iron age Turkmenistan( Yaz) related ancestry, it makes sense to assume OG pashtuns somewhat looked like them and then absorbed some indics which darkened them relatively speaking, still lighter than Punjabis and balochis no doubt, but we can all admit they are darker than Northern Tajiks ok average.

I don't get why it's such a taboo to equate phenotype with genotype on average, this is why we know for a fact sri Lankans are AASI heavy, or norweigans have loads of EHG/ANF or a random Afghan from Kabul who looks mexican will always have Alot of east Eurasian ancestry but somehow they always get surprised.

Don't even bother with this guy, he has only a little bit of clue about afghans.

[Negah]

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[Negah]

Don't even bother with this guy, he has only a little bit of clue about afghans.

You cannot be serious. If you only knew who my friend is and the time I spent showing you this. It is your loss, not mine. The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge

[thisismyaccount]

You cannot be serious. If you only knew who my friend is and the time I spent showing you this. It is your loss, not mine. The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge

If your friend think it's a good idea to use SPGT in regard of pashtuns, especially the Iron Age ones, then I'm not impressed at all. Anyone that knows pashtun DNA and haplogroups, know connecting both this way is ridiculous.

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge"

Your quote fits both you and your friend more in this regard. You even right away denied the historical attestations I provided, and haplogroups too. And you did it for some silly conclusion, a kind only ever made up by you and your buddy. No one else. Not even the paper you provided.

I liked the analysis of pashtun skin color better, but I have too much prior knowledge of haplogroups and formal results already. Your friend isn't well aware of haplogroups, history or even looked properly at this paper. The SPGT region itself show increase of indian ancestry during Mauryan era , so this claim about no possibility of indic admix is very silly.


I could comment on your other prior arguments, but I'll stop here about this specific topic.


I'm more open about the other info you could share, as I've mentioned before, example about pashtun skin color and such.

[thisismyaccount]

This does actually make sense tbh, I would have imagined OG pashtuns to have looked like those darwaz badakshi Tajiks, absolutely zero south Asian or zagros heavy phenotypes among them, but moving towards the suleiman mountains caused them too assimilate the local hill populations ( partially obviously ) and increasing their IVC ancestry and absorbing some phenotypes from them. I think the way you phrased it to Negah made it seem like they are a hybrid between the two when in reality they only partially assimilated these folks.

Edit: even those darwaz badakshi Tajiks with zero south Asian looking people still genetically have some IVC and as a result AASI in their genome, so OG pashtuns would have probably been about 2-4% AASI, with assimilation of these local suleiman populations increasing their AASI to around 6-8%.

I didn't respond to this, but I don't think they would had looked like darwaz. I feel like they're too white.

Maybe more like this? Though some few additional darwazi looking people and of course excluding the hazaras

These are mainly tajiks from Chaghcharan, Ghor province. It's almost northwest hazarajat