Orangepulp's DNA tribes results.

[Onur]

If the definition of Turkic is just plain mongoloid admixture then our average is: something like 6-7, Orange has got less than 6 and I have got more than 6, it's depending on the region of Turkey etc. I have seen a fellow Turk that scored under 2 %.

Yes it is just a mongoloid admixture because geneticists are stupidly call mongoloid admixture as "Turkic" and all others as armenoid, hellenic like if there is any data for the 11th century Turkish migrates and they were supposedly pure mongoloids. This is just plain stupid.

I think DNA is the best scientific way to have a clue about our past and origins, that current Anatolian Turks are better related to other ethnic Anatolian populations, our only difference is our Turkic input.

No it`s not the best way because modern geneticists are adhering DNA values to ethnic groups without any proof. How come we know that 11th century Turks were pure mongoloid or how come we know that our neighbors admixture doesn't contain any Turkish input?

Besides, I don't know why you are exaggerating the percentage so much. If the Turkic migration was a small percentage It could be possible that a smaller group over powers a greater group. Why not?? Natives assimilated with the ruling class doesn't sound so surprising to me.

I am not exaggerating at all. What i am saying is they cant be a small minority and couldn't possibly assimilate the majority. If that would be the case, Byzantines, Arabs, Iranians, western Romans would write down something about that. Why we don't have any document from Byzantine chronicles mentioning converted christians en masse? Do you possibly think they wouldn't write down such an event if they would loose people from their orthodox community? Why Armenians didn't write anything at all?

Anatolia is not some kind of isolated place. Whatever happened here, it`s been written down by 4-5 different sources like Byzantines, Arabs, western Romans, Iranians, Chinese etc.

Just tell me, if we exactly know when Volga Bulgars converted as muslims and if we know when Khazars converted to judaism as early as 8th century then WHY THE HELL no one wrote anything about the local Anatolians forcefully converting to islam en masse?? why why why? Hell we even exactly know when Germanics became christians but why there is no record for Anatolia?

If anyone can give proper answers to my questions, i will wholeheartedly believe that 5% Turks mass converted 95% Anatolians. I am just waiting a logical answer, couldn't find yet.

[Onur]

Most likely at some period of history all her ancestors were brutally killed and only little remains of survived children were forcibly turkified.

This is your imagination. If such a massacre would have happen, at least Armenian church himself would have note it but there is no such a thing. For example, we know that Timur massacred some Armenians in late 14th century and we know it in every detail. If Turks would have do that, we would known in every detail too.

For example this 80-year-old woman called Fatma Yavuz only by chance learned her real Armenian name at the age of 78. All her family were killed and she was given to a Turkish family.

This case is totally unrelated with our subject. These people are just Armenians who impostered as alevi kurds in Turkey to be able to escape from 1915 expulsions.

There are about 12 million Kurds in Turkey today and about one million of them are these Armenian imposters who claims to be alevi Kurds. It`s estimated that around ~100k Armenians pretended to be alevi Kurds to be able to escape from 1915 Armenian expulsion. Their numbers should be around 800k-1000k today. They prefer to call themselves as alevis to escape from going to mosques. Most of them knows their Armenian roots but they are just acting like Kurds to hide their true identity

[Pecheneg]

Here is the whole story and it's horrific.

Dersim katliamının tanıklarından biri Ermeni kızı Aslıhan'dı. Konya'ya sürgüne yollandığında 5-6 yaşındaydı ve adı artık 'Fatma'ydı. Çocukları dahil herkes onu Kürt biliyordu. O, Dersim'in yıllar sonra ortaya çıkan ilk kayıp Ermeni kızı...

Do you know what it says? She is Kurdish of armenian origin from Dersim! a region populated by Alevi Kurds in eastern anatolia!
At least 10-20% of the today's Kurdish population are hidden armenians!

[Arsen_]

People of Erzurum were already Muslim when the Turks came to Anatolia due to the Arabs and thats why they easily accepted the Turkish identity cause the Turks were Muslims like them.

That is not true! There was no even a single Muslim in Erzurum when the Turks came.

Just one quote:

In ancient times, Erzurum existed under the Armenian name of Karin. During the reigns of the Artaxiad and Arsacid kings of Armenia, Karin served as the capital of the eponymous canton of Karin. After the partition of Armenia between the Roman Empire and Sassanid Persia in 387 AD, the city passed into the hands of the Romans. They fortified the city and renamed it Theodosiopolis, after Emperor Theodosius I.[1] As the chief military stronghold along the eastern border of the empire, Theodosiopolis held a highly important strategic location and was fiercely contested in wars between the Byzantines and Persians. Emperors Anastasius I and Justinian I both refortified the city and built new defenses during their reigns.[2]

Theodosiopolis was conquered by the Umayyad general Abdallah ibn Abd al-Malik in 700/701. It became the capital of the emirate of Kalikala and was used as a base for raids into Byzantine territory. Though only an island of Arab power within Christian Armenian-populated territory, the native population was generally a reliable client of the Caliph's governors. As the power of the Caliphate declined, and the resurgence of Byzantium began, the local Armenian leaders preferred the city to be under the control of powerless Muslim emirs rather than powerful Byzantine emperors.[3]

In 931, and again in 949, Byzantine forces led by Theophilos Kourkouas, grandfather of the future emperor John I Tzimiskes, captured Theodosiopolis. Its Arab population was expelled and the city was resettled by Greeks and Armenians.[4] Emperor Basil II rebuilt the city and its defenses in 1018 with the help of the local Armenian population.[5] In 1071, after the decisive battle at Manzikert, the Seljuk Turks took possession of Theodosiopolis.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzurum)

[Loki]

That was like, 1,000 years ago. Lots of people movements took place.

[orangepulp]

Yes it is just a mongoloid admixture because geneticists are stupidly call mongoloid admixture as "Turkic" and all others as armenoid, hellenic like if there is any data for the 11th century Turkish migrates and they were supposedly pure mongoloids. This is just plain stupid.


No it`s not the best way because modern geneticists are adhering DNA values to ethnic groups without any proof. How come we know that 11th century Turks were pure mongoloid or how come we know that our neighbors admixture doesn't contain any Turkish input?

We cant know the genetics of the ancient populations but as I said before we can at least compare ourselves with todays ethnic populations. Our neighbors logically do not have Turkic input becuse they do not score any Asian at all, why are Anatolian Turks the only ones from the region to score Asian?? Balkan Turks also score Asian yet their neighbors don't. Obviously the first Turks to settle to Asia Minor had some percentage of Mongoloid genes. Anatolian Turks do have Turkic genes but it does not over come the preTurkic part.

I am not exaggerating at all. What i am saying is they cant be a small minority and couldn't possibly assimilate the majority. If that would be the case, Byzantines, Arabs, Iranians, western Romans would write down something about that. Why we don't have any document from Byzantine chronicles mentioning converted christians en masse? Do you possibly think they wouldn't write down such an event if they would loose people from their orthodox community? Why Armenians didn't write anything at all?




Anatolia is not some kind of isolated place. Whatever happened here, it`s been written down by 4-5 different sources like Byzantines, Arabs, western Romans, Iranians, Chinese etc.

Just tell me, if we exactly know when Volga Bulgars converted as muslims and if we know when Khazars converted to judaism as early as 8th century then WHY THE HELL no one wrote anything about the local Anatolians forcefully converting to islam en masse?? why why why? Hell we even exactly know when Germanics became christians but why there is no record for Anatolia?

If anyone can give proper answers to my questions, i will wholeheartedly believe that 5% Turks mass converted 95% Anatolians. I am just waiting a logical answer, couldn't find yet

Because being Turk meant being Muslim back then, there was no need to seperately note that people converted to Islam. So obviously if you were a Turk it meant you were a Muslim. As people went through Turkification by intermingling they became Muslims. .

[orangepulp]

That is not true! There was no even a single Muslim in Erzurum when the Turks came.

Theodosiopolis was conquered by the Umayyad general Abdallah ibn Abd al-Malik in 700/701. It became the capital of the emirate of Kalikala and was used as a base for raids into Byzantine territory. Though only an island of Arab power within Christian Armenian-populated territory, the native population was generally a reliable client of the Caliph's governors. As the power of the Caliphate declined, and the resurgence of Byzantium began, the local Armenian leaders preferred the city to be under the control of powerless Muslim emirs rather than powerful Byzantine emperors.[3]In 931, and again in 949, Byzantine forces led by Theophilos Kourkouas, grandfather of the future emperor John I Tzimiskes, captured Theodosiopolis. Its Arab population was expelled and the city was resettled by Greeks and Armenians.[4] Emperor Basil II rebuilt the city and its defenses in 1018 with the help of the local Armenian population.[5] In 1071, after the decisive battle at Manzikert, the Seljuk Turks took possession of Theodosiopolis.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzurum)

See there was an Arab population before and in other sources I remember reading that many people did convert to Islam due to Arab influence.

[Onur]

We cant know the genetics of the ancient populations. Our neighbors logically do not have Turkic input becuse they do not score any Asian at all, why are Anatolian Turks the only ones from the region to score Asian??

You say that we dont know the genetic composition of ancient populations but yet you claim that our neighbors doesn't have any Turkic input. You contradict with yourself.

How come you can classify "Turkic input" as "only Asian"? Where is your proof? Turks had several empires and multicultural states before coming into Anatolia and before becoming muslim. They were not an isolated Amazonian tribe which can be classified with only single phenotype and haplotype. They always had empirical history and most likely they were intermarrying with Asians and Europeans since the domestication of horses.

How come you can classify a group of people who had a big and powerful empirical past with "only Asian"?

I am sure of one thing. Turks were already mixed group in central Asia even 2000 years ago which had both Asian and European DNA and look, therefor you cannot classify Turkic input by only considering Asian and/or Mongolic DNA.


Btw while i ask these questions to you, i am indirectly criticizing the concept of "Turk=Asian Mongol" which was invented in late 19th century and still regarded as supposedly the truth by geneticists.

Because being Turk meant being Muslim back then, there was no need to seperately note that people converted to Islam. So obviously if you were a Turk it meant you were a Muslim. As people went through Turkification by intermingling they became Muslims.

This "muslim=Turk" stereotype in Ottoman era was coming from Balkan christians but Turks themselves were quite aware of who were Turk, Turkish speakers and who were just muslim. Yes, sometimes Ottoman authorities was using that connotation too but in fact, everyone knew who were Arnavut, Bosniak, Pomak, Kurdish and who were the real Turks. If that "Muslim=Turk" concept would be that strong as you think then you can be sure that all the Kurds, Albanians, Pomaks, Bosnians etc. would be Turks today, speaking Turkish only but as you know, this is not the case. These people were muslim, living among Turks but preserving their own languages and identities for centuries.

I am not saying that they didn't intermarry between each other but they were aware of their past heritage, so they weren't automatically becoming ethnic Turk when they accept islam.


Btw you are absolutely wrong about one thing. Yes, maybe Ottoman authorities wouldn't note down the people who converted as muslims but both Armenian and Greek church was still intact and they had their own administration and institutions. Do you possibly think that Armenians wouldn't write down this if they would loose members of their christian community and if Armenians or Greeks would convert to islam en masse?

You are falsely assuming this because you probably never analyzed historical Byzantine and Armenian records. I am a PHD student in medieval history and trust me, they wrote everything, i mean literally everything from expenses of the churches to number of people in their community. The whole world are reading their historical chronicles for centuries but no one saw or read anything about mass conversion of Greeks or Armenians forcefully to islam because such a thing never happened. This is just a myth of our anti-Turkish neighboring christian nationalists.

[evon]

Just need to mention something without getting too involved

Most people under Muslim rule were pagan, Christian ect until quite late in the middle ages, so to say middle eastern peoples = Muslims in 700 is likely very wrong, only the military elite would likely have been Muslims by that time.. Also, another point, Nomadic peoples usually were a minority within any region versus settled peoples, and lastly, most major trading ports in the middle east has merchants from all over the place, cities such as Tabriz (major trading city in around 1300's) even had Tibetans living there as traders, plus many other populations from all over Eurasia, whom had their own quarters (wonder if their admixture can be detected today in modern populations?)...

[Transhumanist]

Just need to mention something without getting too involved

[T]o say middle eastern peoples = Muslims in 700 is likely very wrong..

I agree.

The Status of Non-Muslim Minorities Under Islamic Rule

Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word "dhimmitude" as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination. Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories in Africa, Europe and Asia, for over a millennium (638-1683). The Muslim empire incorporated numerous varied peoples which had their own religion, culture, language and civilization. For centuries, these indigenous, pre-Islamic peoples constituted the great majority of the population of the Islamic lands. Although these populations differed, they were ruled by the same type of laws, based on the shari'a.

http://www.dhimmitude.org/