All things considered, is Scotland closer to the Irish or other British?

[Gwydion]

Scotland and Scots, are they closer to the Irish or other Britons? I am talking here on a deep historical level rather than just modern day Scotland.

We have to consider that the name "Scotland" comes from the Latin term for Irish (Scotti), the Gaelic Dal Riata formed the basis of a unified Scotland, the Declaration of Arbroath maintained a Gaelic identity of the nation, and most of the various symbols and images associated with Scotland (Romanticized or otherwise) such as tartan, kilts, bagpipe, the clan system, etc. are of Gaelic provenance. Even prior to the formation of Scotland, I believe it has been noted that Western Scotland especially has always been closer to Northern Ireland in terms of cultural or archaeological trends than it was with Britain further South. Gaelic was also the only language to be nearly pan-Scottish until the complete dominance of English in the 19th century.

Yet on the other hand, Scotland is part of Britain. It shares in the recent heritage of the United Kingdom, which was indeed united under a Scottish dynasty (the Stewarts.)

How about phenotypically? It seems here too that the Scottish redhead stereotype is also an Irish stereotype.

[Graham]

Depends who you ask in Scotland. Some hate Britain & some hate Ireland.

Scotland and Scots, are they closer to the Irish or other Britons? I am talking here on a deep historical level rather than just modern day Scotland.

We have to consider that the name "Scotland" comes from the Latin term for Irish (Scotti)

the Gaelic Dal Riata formed the basis of a unified Scotland

The house of Alpin were the king of Picts and then king of Scots & Picts with Kenneth Macalpin. The unified Alba is then mentioned under Constantine, son of Áed.

, the Declaration of Arbroath maintained a Gaelic identity of the nation, and most of the various symbols and images associated with Scotland (Romanticized or otherwise) such as tartan, kilts, bagpipe, the clan system, etc. are of Gaelic provenance.

The Declaration of Arboath was written for the pope to stop England trying to annex Scotland and recognise our independence at that time and for the future. It is written to impress.

Tartan is probably pre dal Riada as tartan was found here early, bagpipes seem to be found all over Europe, I could be wrong but havent saw the Irish as wearing the great Kilts. Our old national instrument was the celtic harp/clarsach like Ireland and the music culture is very similar.

Even prior to the formation of Scotland, I believe it has been noted that Western Scotland especially has always been closer to Northern Ireland in terms of cultural or archaeological trends than it was with Britain further South. Gaelic was also the only language to be nearly pan-Scottish until the complete dominance of English in the 19th century.

Boats were the fastest way of transport in the past, so Ireland was as easy to get to as anywhere, its plausible. The Bruces also wanted an allied Ireland-Scoland Gaelic culture in the 13th century with Scots crossing into ireland to battle the English in Ireland.

Yet on the other hand, Scotland is part of Britain. It shares in the recent heritage of the United Kingdom, which was indeed united under a Scottish dynasty (the Stewarts.)

Royal families married throughout Europe, Stewarts married with the English and French. The English royal line died and the Stewarts claimed a bloodline to England.

How about phenotypically? It seems here too that the Scottish redhead stereotype is also an Irish stereotype.

Irish, Scots & English phenotypically overlap. Scots and Irish are fairer Skinned on average, Irish have lots of blue eyes, English have more blondes. The difference isnt that much.

[Gwydion]

Depends who you ask in Scotland. Some hate Britain & some hate Ireland.

I imagine much of the Irish hate would have to do with the religious and political differences of more recent centuries. Or because of Celtic F.C. hehe.

The house of Alpin were the king of Picts and then king of Scots & Picts with Kenneth Macalpin. The unified Alba is then mentioned under Constantine, son of Áed.

Yeah but despite the shadowy origins of Kenneth MacAlpin, the house itself traced their lineage to the Dal Riata. I believe some of the royal disputes in early medieval Alba (such as MacBeth) were due to competing claims by different Dal Riatan kingroups.

The Declaration of Arboath was written for the pope to stop England trying to annex Scotland and recognise our independence at that time and for the future. It is written to impress.

But also likely reflected a true sense of Scottish identity of the time, since Bruce reemphasized that in his letter to the Irish chiefs emphasizing their common blood and nationhood. I believe it was also said that David I's army at the Battle of the Standard, despite diverse origins (Norman, Cumbrian, Anglian, etc.) went into battle with a traditional Scottic/Gaelic battle cry (Albannach!) Then of course you have the medieval Scottish Church's connection with the Columban Church, such as Columba's relics being apparently carried into battle at Bannockburn.

Tartan is probably pre dal Riada as tartan was found here early, bagpipes seem to be found all over Europe, I could be wrong but havent saw the Irish as wearing the great Kilts. Our old national instrument was the celtic harp/clarsach like Ireland and the music culture is very similar.

Of course. I suppose my point was in the popular imagination (due to the influence of guys like Walter Scott) the symbols of Scotland and Scottishness are more associated with the Gael than with later Anglian Lowland culture, which I suppose makes sense since you need something to differentiate Scotland from England aside from the Presbyterian Kirk or different law codes.

[Traveler]

All things considered, is Scotland closer to the Irish or other British?Re

Scotland and Scots, are they closer to the Irish or other Britons? I am talking here on a deep historical level rather than just modern day Scotland.

In a way, both & neither.

The Gaelic Dal Riata formed the basis of a unified Scotland

Scottish "Gaelic" Dal Riata had Norse tradin' posts & Norse-Gaels.

the Declaration of Arbroath maintained a Gaelic identity of the nation...
But also likely reflected a true sense of Scottish identity of the time, since Bruce reemphasized that in his letter to the Irish chiefs emphasizing their common blood and nationhood.

Majority of names, includin de Bruce/Brus, are Norse, Norman or Saxon on the Declaration. Look them up.

and most of the various symbols and images associated with Scotland (Romanticized or otherwise) such as tartan, kilts, bagpipe, the clan system, etc. are of Gaelic provenance.

Bagpipes found world over. Ancient tartans found Austria, Scandinavia, etc. Clans exist elsewhere.

It shares in the recent heritage of the United Kingdom, which was indeed united under a Scottish dynasty (the Stewarts.)

Was Scotland a separate island prior or somethin'?

Of course. I suppose my point was in the popular imagination (due to the influence of guys like Walter Scott) the symbols of Scotland and Scottishness are more associated with the Gael than with later Anglian Lowland culture

Says who? Americans?

Gaelic was also the only language to be nearly pan-Scottish until the complete dominance of English in the 19th century.

So Pictish was imaginary?

I imagine much of the Irish hate would have to do with the religious and political differences of more recent centuries. Or because of Celtic F.C. hehe.

Good thing yur not Irish then.

Yeah but despite the shadowy origins of Kenneth MacAlpin, the house itself traced their lineage to the Dal Riata. I believe some of the royal disputes in early medieval Alba (such as MacBeth) were due to competing claims by different Dal Riatan kingroups.

The Book of Ballymote & Lecan implies the Irish clan of Alpin descends from Kenneth. If Kenneth was of Dal Riata descendant has never been proven. Besides there are Irish clans of probable Pictish root. The Cruthin families are not Irish.

[Traveler]

Depends who you ask in Scotland. Some hate Britain & some hate Ireland.

It's cause we're the better lookin' ones, right?

I could be wrong but havent saw the Irish as wearing the great Kilts.

We don't. Lein-croich (modern saffron kilts); pre 16th century Scots' kilts apparently. Scottish tartans are family & ours not quite.

Our old national instrument was the celtic harp/clarsach like Ireland and the music culture is very similar.

vs Cláirseach

[Gwydion]

Scottish "Gaelic" Dal Riata had Norse tradin' posts & Norse-Gaels.

I am talking about the origin of the dynasty which laid the foundations of a unified Alba. It traced its lineage to Fergus Mor mac Eirc and the gradual Gaelicization of the Picts was underway before the Norse settlement, which despite their elite dominance was more sparse in the Inner Hebrides compared to say Orkney.

Majority of names, includin de Bruce/Brus, are Norse, Norman or Saxon on the Declaration. Look them up.

Indeed. I am talking about how Arbroath described the national identity. The document describes the history of the Scots and discusses them vanquishing perceived foreign peoples which included the Picts. But yes by the 14th century there was a replacement of the Gaelic elite by Normans in much of the Lowlands.

Bagpipes found world over. Ancient tartans found Austria, Scandinavia, etc. Clans exist elsewhere.

That's true but I am specifically talking about how the Great Highland Bagpipes and Scottish Gaelic tartan are popular images of Scotland.

Was Scotland a separate island prior or somethin'?

Separate kingdom. Until the Union of the Crowns and even thereafter among a portion of Scots there was a strong animosity toward England, the "Auld Enemy." Though amusingly enough thanks to Ptolmey's geography it was often perceived of as a separate island in the Middle Ages.

Says who? Americans?

The Romanticism of Scott also influenced Scotland's own image of itself, especially in the 19th century, hence all of the Clan societies and creation of many clan tartans, crests, etc. Chinese I've talked to when asked about Scots tend to mention Braveheart, kilts, bagpipes, and gingers. Here's a Scotsman who declares as much: (35s in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUkt4k9aKdQ

So Pictish was imaginary?

Pictish is still debated as to its precise linguistic definition and how it differed from the Cumbric/Welsh/Brythonic further south and it remains uncertain whether it was spread across the whole of Scotland prior to the more historical period. The Britons/Welsh do claim that Old British was spoken across the whole island so it may be so, but by the time a differentiated Pictish forms, there is Gaelic in the West and English in the Southeast. Gaelic became the lingua franca across most of Scotland outside of the Norse areas of the extreme North/Orkney/Shetland and the Outer Hebrides and English in the very Southeast corner. This would only be achieved again by another language with English in the 19th century as noted.

The Book of Ballymote & Lecan implies the Irish clan of Alpin descends from Kenneth. If Kenneth was of Dal Riata descendant has never been proven. Besides there are Irish clans of probable Pictish root. The Cruthin families are not Irish.

Yes, which is why I mentioned his origins are shadowy but this was the claim. Whatever the case it was a Gaelic dynasty or was so by the time of Kenneth.

[Graham]

It's cause we're the better lookin' ones, right?

Always get myself a Daniel O'Donnell calender, so I do. So charming.

[Graham]

I imagine much of the Irish hate would have to do with the religious and political differences of more recent centuries. Or because of Celtic F.C. hehe.

I dont really like it. Love Ireland and Donegal is one of my favourite places have been. But prefer the actual Irish in Ireland.

I dont even want to get started on Rangers politics and the Orange Lodge. Not a fan.

Of course. I suppose my point was in the popular imagination (due to the influence of guys like Walter Scott) the symbols of Scotland and Scottishness are more associated with the Gael than with later Anglian Lowland culture, which I suppose makes sense since you need something to differentiate Scotland from England aside from the Presbyterian Kirk or different law codes.

In the 19th century as Scotlands population shifted to the central belt from the North, the culture became a mix of lowland and highland. For example the most celebrated cultural icon of Scotland, where we celebrate all things Scotland is Rabbie Burns Night. He was a Poet who wrote in Scots and even in Hogmanay, Auld lang syne comes from our celebrations.

I think there was a sense that Britain was diluting the culture after a hundred years of union, and without our indepdendent culture Great Britain would not have lasted for as long. Walter Scott was a Unionist and a clever man who understood that and the reason why King George IV came to Scotland in a kilt. Some Scots were starting to become disillusioned, as the link showed. So something had to be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_War

[Traveler]

I am talking about the origin of the dynasty which laid the foundations of a unified Alba.

Did you not read what Graham said?

It traced its lineage to Fergus Mor mac Eirc and the gradual Gaelicization of the Picts was underway before the Norse settlement, which despite their elite dominance was more sparse in the Inner Hebrides compared to say Orkney.

I'm sure the "Celtic" Scottish clan from Dumfries thought the same. Too bad the Y-DNA is Norse.

Indeed. I am talking about how Arbroath described the national identity. The document describes the history of the Scots and discusses them vanquishing perceived foreign peoples which included the Picts. But yes by the 14th century there was a replacement of the Gaelic elite by Normans in much of the Lowlands.

Didn't Graham make what the Arbroath was clear enough?

And, again, the names who signed it were Norse, Norman & Saxon.

That's true but I am specifically talking about how the Great Highland Bagpipes and Scottish Gaelic tartan are popular images of Scotland.

Which you know little of. The Scottish Tartans, there's an ancient Lowlands one compared to ancient tartans in Germany at least. Jutland too I think.

Separate kingdom. Until the Union of the Crowns and even thereafter among a portion of Scots there was a strong animosity toward England, the "Auld Enemy." Though amusingly enough thanks to Ptolmey's geography it was often perceived of as a separate island in the Middle Ages.

So? People weren't feeble 1 legged, 1 armed, half blind beggars that can't travel.

The Romanticism of Scott also influenced Scotland's own image of itself, especially in the 19th century, hence all of the Clan societies and creation of many clan tartans, crests, etc. Chinese I've talked to when asked about Scots tend to mention Braveheart, kilts, bagpipes, and gingers. Here's a Scotsman who declares as much: (35s in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUkt4k9aKdQ

The crests & tartans are older than 19th century.

As for Chinese. Why not ask an Arab about Native Americans? Ridiculous comment.

Btw, if you don't know, Cambridgeshire is not in Scotland and Kerr is, in many ways, just as much an English name as a Scottish one nowadays. Find a real Scotsman & see if they say the same. Braveheart itself was a shoddy movie with a gobshite director.

Pictish is still debated as to its precise linguistic definition and how it differed from the Cumbric/Welsh/Brythonic further south and it remains uncertain whether it was spread across the whole of Scotland prior to the more historical period. The Britons/Welsh do claim that Old British was spoken across the whole island so it may be so, but by the time a differentiated Pictish forms, there is Gaelic in the West and English in the Southeast. Gaelic became the lingua franca across most of Scotland outside of the Norse areas of the extreme North/Orkney/Shetland and the Outer Hebrides and English in the very Southeast corner. This would only be achieved again by another language with English in the 19th century as noted.

ROFL. Wikipedia knowledge. Read an actual linguistic book.

Yes, which is why I mentioned his origins are shadowy but this was the claim. Whatever the case it was a Gaelic dynasty or was so by the time of Kenneth.

No. It wasn't. I told you the legit claim.

[Gwydion]

Did you not read what Graham said?

I did and it does not contradict what I am saying, which is that Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic in origin (or claimed to be) and traced its lineage to the Dal Riatan kings. The Angevins were Frenchman and traced their lineage to Anjou despite being Kings of England.

I'm sure the "Celtic" Scottish clan from Dumfries thought the same. Too bad the Y-DNA is Norse.

The Dal Riata proper preceded Norse colonization and it moved eastward in the face of Viking occupation of their historic homeland in the Western Isles, which is part of the overall process of why the Dal Riatic Scots and Picts fused.

Didn't Graham make what the Arbroath was clear enough?

And, again, the names who signed it were Norse, Norman & Saxon.

Most of the Normans inherited previous Gaelic dynasties through intermarriage, so even their fiefdoms had previously Gaelic dynastic origins. There was a reason Alexander III, the king just previous to the period of Balliol and Bruce, had his Ollamh recite his lineage back to Dal Riata. Beyond Arbroath Bruce refers to the Irish in his letter to them as nostra nacio or "our nation", implying a sense of common nationhood with the Gaelic Irish. It seems the Irish of an earlier period felt similar since there are many references in documents to "fir Eireann agus Alban."

If you are interested in a more in depth exploration of the topic, look into this work but be warned it is very dry:

https://boydellandbrewer.com/the-iri...turies-hb.html

Which you know little of. The Scottish Tartans, there's an ancient Lowlands one compared to ancient tartans in Germany at least. Jutland too I think.

Yea but I never claimed tartans and bagpipes= Scotland. I claimed that Scottish tartans and the Great Highland Bagpipes, which are more strongly associated with early modern Highland Scottish (Gaelic) culture, have become emblems or popular images of Scotland.

Btw, if you don't know, Cambridgeshire is not in Scotland and Kerr is, in many ways, just as much an English name as a Scottish one nowadays. Find a real Scotsman & see if they say the same. Braveheart itself was a shoddy movie with a gobshite director.

I don't like Braveheart either and I am not saying that modern Gaels of Scotland promote a stereotyped image of themselves. What I am saying is that, thanks to Scottish Romanticism, Highland images such as tartan and the GHB are popular icons of Scotland. A brief Google search of "Scotland" or "Scottish people" or "traditional Scotland" will reveal as much.

No. It wasn't. I told you the legit claim.

Here's the reality: Kenneth McAlpin claimed descent from the Dal Riata. Whether it was true or not is debated, but that was how the kings of Alba perceived their lineage. What is absolutely certain is that ethno-linguistically, Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic.