Is Kosovo Serbian ?

[Kaspias]

Gorani are basically late islamized southern Serbs who who speak archaic version of Serbian language. They are islamized in 18th century.

Are there Muslims among Shops or Torlaks?

[Pribislav]

Are there Muslims among Shops or Torlaks?

They speak Torlakian dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect

[Kaspias]

They speak Torlakian dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect

I know, but i meant except for the people who identify as Gorani, are there Muslim Torlak/Shopi people who live in SE Serbia?

Also is there a difference between Shopi and Torlak anyway? I saw some claim both are same people and some the opposite.

[Pribislav]

I know, but i meant except for the people who identify as Gorani, are there Muslim Torlak/Shopi people who live in SE Serbia?

Also is there a difference between Shopi and Torlak anyway? I saw some claim both are same people and some the opposite.

There is no native Muslim Serbs in SE Serbia today. They moved to Turkey and Ottoman part of Balkan in 1878 when Ottomans are removed from SE Serbia.
Only Muslims in SE Serbia are Albanians in Preševo and Bujanovac, that smaller part os SE Serbia is liberated from Ottomans in 1912 (most of SE Serbia is liberated from Ottomans in 1878).

Shopi is regional term for people from mountain part of SE Serbia and part of western Bulgaria. Have meaning like highlanders, and it was used by lowlanders of that region.
Torlaks is linguistic terms. Shopi are Torlaks linguistically, but not all Torlaks are Shopi.
Torlakian speakers exist also in Romania - Krasovani. They moved from eastern Serbia to the Banat in 15th and 16th century, and in 17th century they converted from Orthodoxy on Roman Catholicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krashovani

[Vožd]

I'm a serbian nationalist but on Kosovo I don't have a extreme opinion not kill or deport albos

You referring that Serbian nationalists want killing Albanians?

[Kaspias]

There is no native Muslim Serbs in SE Serbia today. They moved to Turkey and Ottoman part of Balkan in 1878 when Ottomans are removed from SE Serbia.
Only Muslims in SE Serbia are Albanians in Preševo and Bujanovac, that smaller part os SE Serbia is liberated from Ottomans in 1912 (most of SE Serbia is liberated from Ottomans in 1878).

Shopi is regional term for people from mountain part of SE Serbia and part of western Bulgaria. Have meaning like highlanders, and it was used by lowlanders of that region.
Torlaks is linguistic terms. Shopi are Torlaks linguistically, but not all Torlaks are Shopi.
Torlakian speakers exist also in Romania - Krasovani. They moved from eastern Serbia to the Banat in 15th and 16th century, and in 17th century they converted from Orthodoxy on Roman Catholicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krashovani

Thank you for the explanation.


It seems like there were Turks, too. Not only converts. They migrated to today's Bulgaria - Kardzhali afterwards. This person(1/2) has documented roots from SE Serbia:

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	East_Med	23.97
2	Baltic	19.3
3	West_Asian	15.02
4	North_Atlantic	14.3
5	West_Med	13.54
6	Siberian	6.47
7	South_Asian	2.66
8	Red_Sea	2.61
9	East_Asian	1.35
10	Amerindian	0.48
11	Northeast_African	0.31

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Greek_Thessaly	10.97
2	Bulgarian	11.76
3	Romanian	13.5
4	Central_Greek	13.9
5	East_Sicilian	14.96
6	Ashkenazi	15.19
7	Italian_Abruzzo	15.31
8	Serbian	17.1
9	West_Sicilian	17.13
10	South_Italian	17.67
11	Tuscan	18.89
12	Moldavian	20.61
13	Turkish	20.95
14	Sephardic_Jewish	21.76
15	Algerian_Jewish	22.05
16	Italian_Jewish	22.27
17	North_Italian	22.4
18	Nogay	23.94
19	Croatian	24.15
20	Hungarian	24.2

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	 	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1	 	50.8%	Cyprian	+	49.2%	Tatar	@	3.62
2	 	66.4%	South_Italian	+	33.6%	Chuvash	@	4.37
3	 	73.9%	Central_Greek	+	26.1%	Mari	@	4.38
4	 	72%	Central_Greek	+	28%	Chuvash	@	4.47
5	 	63.4%	Ashkenazi	+	36.6%	Tatar	@	4.66
6	 	70.4%	East_Sicilian	+	29.6%	Chuvash	@	4.81
7	 	72.6%	East_Sicilian	+	27.4%	Mari	@	5.02
8	 	68.8%	South_Italian	+	31.2%	Mari	@	5.07
9	 	70.3%	Ashkenazi	+	29.7%	Chuvash	@	5.2
10	 	53.5%	Italian_Jewish	+	46.5%	Tatar	@	5.21
11	 	61.7%	Cyprian	+	38.3%	East_Finnish	@	5.22
12	 	65.9%	Central_Greek	+	34.1%	Tatar	@	5.24
13	 	58.9%	Cyprian	+	41.1%	Kargopol_Russian	@	5.27
14	 	59.6%	South_Italian	+	40.4%	Tatar	@	5.29
15	 	61.5%	Sephardic_Jewish	+	38.5%	Chuvash	@	5.34
16	 	54.1%	Sephardic_Jewish	+	45.9%	Tatar	@	5.35
17	 	53.8%	Algerian_Jewish	+	46.2%	Tatar	@	5.37
18	 	64.1%	East_Sicilian	+	35.9%	Tatar	@	5.38
19	 	75.2%	Greek_Thessaly	+	24.8%	Afghan_Turkmen	@	5.44
20	 	60.9%	Italian_Jewish	+	39.1%	Chuvash	@	5.52

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	Caucasian	32.37
2	European_Early_Farmers	19.79
3	European_Hunters_Gatherers	18.55
4	South_Central_Asian	5.63
5	East_Siberian	5.25
6	Tungus-Altaic	4.54
7	Ancestral_Altaic	4.26
8	South_Indian	3.44
9	Near_East	2.95
10	North_African	2.64
11	Archaic_African	0.47
12	Paleo_Siberian	0.13

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Serb_Serbia ( )	7.41
2	Montenegrian ( )	8.22
3	Serb_BH ( )	8.69
4	Croat ( )	8.93
5	Bosnian ( )	9
6	Bulgarian ( )	9.01
7	Croat_BH ( )	9.8
8	Macedonian ( )	9.87
9	Hungarian_Budapest ( )	10.06
10	Slovenian ( )	10.47
11	Romanian ( )	10.52
12	Hungarian ( )	10.75
13	Czech ( )	11.29
14	Greek_Northwest ( )	11.84
15	Sicilian_West ( )	12.18
16	Slovak ( )	12.68
17	Austrian ( )	12.75
18	Italian_North ( )	12.89
19	Kosovar ( )	12.94
20	Ashkenazi_Jew ( )	12.95

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	 	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1	 	74.6%	Kosovar ( )	+	25.4%	Turkmen_Afghan ( )	@	4.35
2	 	78.6%	Kosovar ( )	+	21.4%	Tatar-Siberian ( )	@	4.58
3	 	76.2%	Albanian_Tirana ( )	+	23.8%	Tatar-Siberian ( )	@	4.7
4	 	76.6%	Kosovar ( )	+	23.4%	Bashkir ( )	@	4.71
5	 	72%	Kosovar ( )	+	28%	Chuvashs ( )	@	4.76
6	 	75.4%	Kosovar ( )	+	24.6%	Uzbek ( )	@	4.79
7	 	83.1%	Greek_Thessaloniki ( )	+	16.9%	Hakas ( )	@	4.87
8	 	75.9%	Kosovar ( )	+	24.1%	Tajik_Tajikistan ( )	@	4.9
9	 	74.1%	Albanian_Tirana ( )	+	25.9%	Bashkir ( )	@	4.93
10	 	82.4%	Albanian_Tirana ( )	+	17.6%	Hakas ( )	@	4.99
11	 	80.6%	Greek_Northwest ( )	+	19.4%	Tatar-Siberian ( )	@	5.05
12	 	65.3%	Kosovar ( )	+	34.7%	Tatar-Kazan ( )	@	5.06
13	 	72.2%	Albanian_Tirana ( )	+	27.8%	Turkmen_Afghan ( )	@	5.06
14	 	69.2%	Kosovar ( )	+	30.8%	Tatar ( )	@	5.07
15	 	91%	Bulgarian ( )	+	9%	Yakut ( )	@	5.09
16	 	91.3%	Bulgarian ( )	+	8.7%	Yakut_Anabarsky_ulus ( )	@	5.11
17	 	77.3%	Greek_Thessaloniki ( )	+	22.7%	Tatar-Siberian ( )	@	5.13
18	 	91.4%	Bulgarian ( )	+	8.6%	Dolgan ( )	@	5.13
19	 	77.1%	Greek_Thessaly ( )	+	22.9%	Tatar-Siberian ( )	@	5.14
20	 	74.3%	Greek_Northwest ( )	+	25.7%	Chuvashs ( )	@	5.15

Also, potential Shop-Pomak connection is possible. In Cvijic's definition of Shopluk region the borders reach to Western Thrace where only Pomaks live. And my maternal surname is Shop before than anything.

[πολεμιστής]

If Kosovo is not Serbia, then Kurdistan is not Turkey, RS not Bosnia, Catalonia not Spain...etc...

But... there are double arcs...... for example, Catalonia is Spain, but Kosovo is not Serbia. Who is clever he will understand.

Some of those areas definitely cannot be compared to Kosovo which I am not even going to explain at this point. Not to mention the region of Kosovo never really existed nor did it's borders, it's borders are a Post-World War II invention. And the name itself to refer to the whole region as such is an Ottoman invention that dates back to the Kosovo vilajet, which constituted a much bigger area. It's ancient region of the Dardanians was even bigger and at times stretched all the way down to Greece and included whole of Albania. The Romans invented again all types of borders once they occupied it.

Also the Serbs when they occupied it could of done much better to integrate the Albanian population but instead :

In October 1912 the First Balkan War began and some four hundred years of Ottoman rule in Albania ended (Eastern Europe and the Commonwealth of Independent States 1997 1996, 109). An independent state of Albania was declared on 28 November 1912 and was recognized in May 1913 by the Treaty of London which ended the First Balkan War (ibid., 109, 111; Yugoslavia: A Country Study 1992, 27). However, the subsequent August 1913 Bucharest Treaty redrew Albania's boundaries, leaving more than 50 per cent of all Albanians, mostly those living in Kosovo and Macedonia, outside its boundaries (Albania: A Country Study 1994, 21-22; Larrabee 1994, 296). Kosovo was ceded to Serbia at this time[2]2 (ibid.; Hall 1994, 200). In 1918, following the end of World War I, all Albanian-language schools in Kosovo, Macedonia and Montenegro were closed and the region's 400,000 ethnic Albanians were denied "nation status" (History Today 1 Dec. 1991; Hall 1994, 201; The Financial Times 29 June 1989). According to Hall,

the inter-war period thus saw a Serbian dominated nationalist Yugoslav state denying its non-Slav minorities cultural equality and the rights guaranteed to minorities under international law … Albanian schools and language materials remained suppressed, Albanian intellectuals, clergy and civic leaders were persecuted, and census figures were manipulated (1994, 201).

Serbian settlers were encouraged to migrate to Kosovo; by 1940 over 150,000 acres of land reportedly had been seized from Albanians and given to Serb settlers (The Financial Times 29 June 1989). Some 18-40,000 Slavic families settled in Kosovo by 1940 (History Today 1 Dec. 1991; Hall 1994, 202). At the same time, thousands of ethnic Albanians either fled Kosovo, were imprisoned or were forced to leave for allegedly advocating irredentist policies (History Today 1 Dec. 1991; Encyclopaedia of Conflicts 1993, 180; see also Hall 1994, 202).

If Serbian politicians at that time had done better in integrating the Albanians in Kosovo and in Southern Serbia maybe things would of been different for Serbia in the future. And peace would of been established. So are the Albanians here to be blamed or the Serbs themselves for losing Kosovo in the first place ?


It is easy to blame others instead of looking at what you did wrong yourself first.

[MagnusDark]

Some of those areas definitely cannot be compared to Kosovo which I am not even going to explain at this point. Not to mention the region of Kosovo never really existed nor did it's borders, it's borders are a Post-World War II invention. And the name itself to refer to the whole region as such is an Ottoman invention that dates back to the Kosovo vilajet, which constituted a much bigger area. It's ancient region of the Dardanians was even bigger and at times stretched all the way down to Greece and included whole of Albania. The Romans invented again all types of borders once they occupied it.

Also the Serbs when they occupied it could of done much better to integrate the Albanian population but instead :






If Serbian politicians at that time had done better in integrating the Albanians in Kosovo and in Southern Serbia maybe things would of been different for Serbia in the future. And peace would of been established. So are the Albanians here to be blamed or the Serbs themselves for losing Kosovo in the first place ?


It is easy to blame others instead of looking at what you did wrong yourself first.

[KrashNick]

the Bosniak dna project tests them. they even test Pomaks from Bulgaria. All Balkan Muslim Slavs.

What about Janjevo Croats ? They are catholic but it would be interesting to see their results .

[PAGANE]

Gorani are an old ethnic Bulgarian population. One of the theories is that Gorani is the "former" Bogomil population that adopted Islam last in Albania "and is very likely to be accepted - the last Christian grandmother Bozhana of Brod village, present-day Kosovo, died in 1856. explains the strong memory of the Christian past, which is especially pronounced in toponymy - church, church, cliché, as well as the memories of the Christian ritual and holiday calendar - they are immigrants from Old Bulgaria before the Ottoman invasion of the Balkans. is that in many of Autumn is sung about the Black Sea. The language spoken by the Gorani can be attributed to the West Bulgarian speeches known as transitional speeches, sometimes not quite exactly as Torlo dialects. Macedonian Bulgarian Literary Standard) are the only two modern codified Slavic languages ​​(language norms) in which the maturity system has been completely dropped and almost all nouns are used. t in one maturity. In Goran, as in Bulgarian, the full member is used - the presence of the member. A distinctive feature of the y-speakers, including those in the territory of Bulgaria and Northern Macedonia, is the absence of (x).
The first mention of some of the Gorani villages is considered to be the Dushanov Hrisovul, issued in 1348 (with a variant of 1352). According to this order, lands belonging to the Goran villages were donated to the Monastery of St. Archangels, built by Tsar Stefan Dushan near Prizren. In the 15th century, the name of Gora was known to the Nahi with 27 villages listed in the Turkish Register from 1452/55. According to Turkish sources dating from the 15th and 16th centuries, the population increased fivefold for the period 1452/55 - 1591. This increase is attributed to the displacement from the neighboring territories, but the migrants are mainly residents of the shepherd regions in Western Macedonia. In 1924-26, the state border between the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and Albania was established, and the Forest was divided, although there were no geographical, linguistic or ethnic grounds.