The Shroud of Turin: Physical Proof of the Existence, Resurrection, and Divinity of Christ

[Alessio]

How was it done?

By a con-artist that lived in the late medieval period even further manipulated by later con-artists.

[Morena]

By a con-artist that lived in the late medieval period even further manipulated by later con-artists.

You answered the "who" (which is just conjecture) but not the how.

[Loki]

By a con-artist that lived in the late medieval period even further manipulated by later con-artists.

No it wasn't. There is no evidence it was done by a con artist, in fact everything is against that idea.

[Loki]

It's just a fraud, spare yourself some time and read a good book or two.

You are the fraud.

[Morena]

You are the fraud.

Hey, can I edit the OP? I want to make the (better edited) outline on the OP with a good documentary in the bottom and the link for shroud.com with an explanation. I think some people may get the impression that shroud.com is a conspiracy site or place where it's one guy rambling, instead of an information aggregate site and database.

[Loki]

Hey, can I edit the OP? I want to make the (better edited) outline on the OP with a good documentary in the bottom and the link for shroud.com with an explanation. I think some people may get the impression that shroud.com is a conspiracy site or place where it's one guy rambling, instead of an information aggregate site and database.

Sure.

[Alessio]

Aren't these historical facts about Jesus' death good enough? Do we really need this kind of 'proof' in order to convince ourselves Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the third day? Do we really have to convince Muslims their book is falsely claiming Jesus didn't rise from the dead nor was physically crucified, using these rather cheap methods no one believes anyway. There was a time - this immense lifeforce - this magically shaped tree - that clearly symbolized life - in the middle of the forest - was enough to feed our (once held) animistic belief, that there was a spiritual being responsible for all this beauty, but also depravity around us, without the need of a (sinless) human sacrifice, one that wasn't just a human being but God in human flesh, part of a tri-une God (i.e. father, son and holy spirit)! Are we much better than these....paganists! >really?

[Loki]

Aren't these historical facts about Jesus' death good enough? Do we really need this kind of 'proof' in order to convince ourselves Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the third day? Do we really have to convince Muslims their book is falsely claiming Jesus didn't rise from the dead nor was physically crucified, using these rather cheap methods no one believes anyway. There was a time - this immense lifeforce - this magically shaped tree - that clearly symbolized life - in the middle of the forest - was enough to feed our (once held) animistic belief, that there was a spiritual being responsible for all this beauty, but also depravity around us, without the need of a (sinless) human sacrifice, one that wasn't just a human being but God in human flesh, part of a tri-une God (i.e. father, son and holy spirit)! Are we much better than these....paganists! >really?

Here I agree with you to a certain extent. I certainly don't need any evidence from the Shroud to make me believe more in Jesus, as far as I'm concerned my faith would not be weaker if it did not exist. However, this is just another piece of evidence to the unbelievers, we have so much... so that at the end, no-one will have any excuse not to believe. There is no excuse.

I just don't understand what you are going on about a pagan tree making the need for Jesus superfluous. That's nonsense.

[Alessio]

Here I agree with you to a certain extent. I certainly don't need any evidence from the Shroud to make me believe more in Jesus, as far as I'm concerned my faith would not be weaker if it did not exist. However, this is just another piece of evidence to the unbelievers, we have so much... so that at the end, no-one will have any excuse not to believe. There is no excuse.

I just don't understand what you are going on about a pagan tree making the need for Jesus superfluous. That's nonsense.

It's poetry, just like how many Bible stories are using metaphores and analogies to enforce a certain point. I let everyone interpret the tree how ever they want. Don't say the story of Adam and Eve makes much sense when reading it literally.

I don't agree with all the evidence for Jesus' ressurection, his existence and that people have no excuse when they deny his divinity and eternal message. You need to be a scholar almost to understand some of the historical ''proofs'' and a theologian to partially understand the NT let alone the relationship between the OT and NT and why one would have to believe the NT because of what is written in the OT. It's extremely confusing for a layman and I understand why people think Christianity doesn't necessarily have to be true revelation from God/Jaweh because some 1st century documents, theologians and the Vatican says so.

[Larali]

I'm not sure if it matters whether the shroud is legitimately Jesus'. If you believe what Jesus said then you shouldn't need physical evidence.

So it actually is a real death shroud, then? It looks so fake to me.