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Yes, I see more like Norwegians, but Swedes have more Baltic than Norwegians do.Originally Posted by Emelia
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Thanks for that.
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I would have thought that Swedes were more similar to Norwegians.
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There is indeed evidence that there exists specific Karelian/East Finnish type. It is called the mesolithic East Baltic relic type. West Finns oth show high in-between group variance with the rest of the North Euro posse.Northern Europeans are close because their Northern ancestry links them before liguistic groups were formed (?)Whg-ANE link . Finns show significant siberian/mongolid component well above European average, which I guess is ancient, because other Northern Europeans have it too. One Finn wrote their genotype is very specific and kind of isolated, still close to neighbours despite its uniqueness.
My knowledge about Northern Europeans is superficialy, so Finns and Swedes in here will know better ofc
Read these:
https://www.academia.edu/2535109/Kha...lozero_Karelia
https://www.academia.edu/764235/Khar...burial_ground_
There is some evidence that there exists old genetic basis for this type, tho more recent deveploments could also explain it.Modern and recent groups compared with Kylalahti Kalmistomäki are Karelians, Ingrians (Izhorians), Finns, Estonians, Komi Zyrians, Kola Sami, northern and northwestern Russians, Letts, Swedes of Finland and of Ruhnu Island, Estonia. The loadings of traits on the canonical variates are given in Table 4, and Fig. 2 shows the position of groups on canonical variates I and II, which jointly account for 56.8 % of the total variance. Traits with the highest positive loadings on CV I(32 % of variance) are cranial height and nasal protrusion angle, implying that on the between group level, groups with high vaults tend to display sharply protruding noses. As seen from Fig. 2, Karelians, Komi Zyrians, Ingrians as well as the Kylalahti Kalmistomäki group cluster on the positive extreme of CV I. The opposite extreme is taken by Sami groups, which demonstrate maximal gracility, low vault, and relatively weakly protruding noses. The Karelian series from Kompakovo falls in the center and is isolated from other Karelian groups due to a combination of medium high vault, mesobrachycrany, and a face that is flat by Karelian standards. Apparently, this group differs from other Karelians by origin (Khartanovich, 1986). Also intermediate between the Karelian and Finnish groups is a recent series from Kurkijoki, which was shown to be admixed (Khartanovich, 1990). Nevertheless, it is closer to Karelians and KomiZyrians than to Finns. Traits with maximal loadings on CV II, which explains 25 % of the variation are nasal protrusion angle, simotic index, bizygomatic width, and length and width of the braincase.
CV II demonstrates that a lesser nasal protrusion angle co-occurs with a shorter braincase and a higher simotic index. The Sami living in the central parts of the Kola Peninsula in relative isolation from others score highest on CV II due to brachycrany and small nasal protrusion angle combined with the convex nasal bridge.Coastal Sami from Jokanga, and to a lesser degree those from Varzino, deviate from others and show a “Finnish”tendency probably because of a late northern Caucasoid admixture (Khartanovich, 1991b, 2004a). Certain groups of (Finland)Swedes and Letts score lowest on CV II. Generally, as seen from Fig. 2, Finnish, Estonian, Lettish, and Russian groups form no distinct clusters and display a high between-group variation, possibly because of their complex population history.Results of the multivariate analysis suggest that the Kylalahti Kalmistomäki group exhibits a distinctly Karelian trait combination, being closest to Karelians from Chiksha and Turha who retain the morphological specificity of ancient groups with their robust and very high braincase, a broad face, which is slightly flattened on the upper level and sharply profiled at the middle level, and a sharply protruding nose.This combination, which opposes Karelians to other modern groups of northeastern Europe and links them to prehistoric inhabitants of the region,is even more expressed in the medieval group from Kylalahti Kalmistomäki than in the 18th – early 20th century Karelians. Among the numerous late medieval groups from the territory of the Novgorodian Republic and the Eastern Baltic, the only parallel to these groups is shown by a series from the 14th–16th century cairns at Raglitsy in Novgorod Province (Sankina, 2000). The only early medieval group with a similar combination is that from the 2nd– 6th century mounds from Zhemaitia, Latvia(Denisova, 1975). The only difference is that the Zhemaitians display a longer and narrower braincase.
Clearly, the general resemblance between the Kylalahti Kalmistomäki crania, those of modern Karelians, and certain medieval, Neolithic, and Mesolithic groups does not necessarily indicate direct genetic continuity. More likely, it indicates evolutionary conservatism, whereby ancient trait combinations have been preserved in certain populations of northern Europe. V.P. Alekseyev (1984)suggested that evolutionary conservatism might have resulted in the preservation of ancient and “neutral”trait combinations in isolated forest regions of Eastern Europe (1984). This mostly concerned Mesolithic and Neolithic groups which evidently retained the Upper Paleolithic morphology. At the time when Alekseyev made this suggestion, no instances of “evolutionary conservatism” in medieval or recent groups were known because late medieval and modern cranial remains from Karelia were quite scarce.
If you remove from this picture East Finns, the position of Karelians and Vepsians remains the same*, but West Finns would move closer to main North Euro cluster, because East Finnish pull isn't there anymore. On the other hand if you remove West Finns, then East Finns cluster closer to Karelians and Vepsians, because the West Finnish element is removed from the picture.
*what is important here to note, is that because Karelians and Vepsians remain this position, it means that East Finnish position cannot be explained by drift alone. There must be something else there, something much more real.
http://www.elisanet.fi/mauri_my/tiedostot/admix11oh.pdf
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Let's disect this interesting paper by Khartanovich a bit more.
https://www.academia.edu/2535109/Kha...lozero_Karelia
The 17th–early 19th century cranial series, consisting of 23 specimens (15 male and 8 female) from Alozero is the earliest from northern Karelia. The cemetery was evidently left by one of the first groups of Karelians who had permanently settled in this territory. Their crania are generally similar to those of later Karelians. Two distinct morphological trait combinations are present. One is characterized by robustness, a very high vault and a broad face. This combination appears to be the earliest since it links the Alozero people not only with later northwestern Karelians but also with the medieval population of the northwestern Ladoga region and ultimately with the Mesolithic and Neolithic people of the Baltic region. Another trait combination includes a medium high cranial vault, a medium broad face and a convex nasal bridge, linking it with the combination displayed by recent Finns of Finland. The latter component apparently reflects immigration from central Finland. The predecessors of Karelians in that territory are sometimes said to be related to modern Sami. However, no evidence of Sami admixture has been detected either in the Alozero series or in other Karelian groups.
The first permanent Karelian settlements in northwestern Karelia were founded only a few centuries ago. While the earliest ones date to the early 2nd millennium AD, large groups of Finnic-speaking people migrated there from the south only in the 16th and early 17th centuries, after the beginning of the Livonian War. Immigration became large-scale in the early 1600s, when thousands of Karelian families abandoned the territories of the Karelian Isthmus and the area northwest of Lake Ladoga annexed by Sweden and settled elsewhere. Some migrated southeast, to the Olonets and Tikhvin areas, where the Vepses and Russians lived, and from there to the Valday Hills and the Upper Volga – territories abandoned during the wars of the “Troublesome Times” (early 1600s); others, to central and northern Karelia,where the so-called “Lappish parishes” are situated.
By that time some of the latter territories had been populated not only by Karelian pioneers but also by so-called “Forest and Savage Lapps” mentioned by Russian documents and believed to be related to Sami by certain researchers. Whether these can actually beregarded as Sami in cultural and/or biological terms, and whether they had mixed with northern Karelians, are still unresolved issues.
In any case, by the time Karelians migrated to what is now northern Karelia on a mass scale, there were few if any Sami groups in the region. Late 16
th – early 17th century wars between Russia and Sweden had done severe damage to the native population. Written sources briefly mention the destruction of the “Lapps” by the Swedish troops. Some groups of “Lapps”, however, migrated to territories less affected by warfare. Possibly no Sami had remained in Karelia by the end of the 17th century. Some of them were mentioned by earlier sources. Based on the analysis of ethnica, historical documents, and legends, certain researchers believe that these Lapps were assimilated by northern Karelians.
Another question is whether Finnish migrants from the northwestern Ladoga area and central Finland had mixed with northern Karelians. According to historical sources, not only Karelians but also Finns, called “Letts from the Finnish and Swedish lands” migrated to northern Karelia.Their number is difficult to estimate, but the migration itself is well documented by written sources. Toponymic data, too, evidence two waves of migration. A number of characteristically Karelian and “Yem” (“Häme”, i.e. Finnish) toponyms are found all along the waterways which the Karelians used when traveling from the “Korela District” across the Finnish part of northern Karelia to the Karelian part of the White Sea coast, especially to its western part. The number of Finnish emigrants was apparently smaller than that of the Karelian emigrants, but in anycase there is no reason to discard the possibility that Finns had taken part in the origin of the northern Karelian population.
This issue is related to the problem of whether any Bothnian Karelians, who had maintained close contacts with the Finns, could have been ancestral to northern Karelians. Those people appeared in what is now the Kalevala District of the Republic of Karelia in the early 1700s. Historians explain their late arrival by the fact that Bothnian “Karelians”, who lived in northern Finland, were less affected by the Swedish expansion compared to other groups ancestral to modern Karelians. According to D.V. Bubrikh, the memory of immigrant ancestors was still alive in 19th-century Karelians. One of the former was an ancestor of the famous Karelian rune-singer Arkhippa Perttunen.
The role of Finns and Sami in the origin of Karelians proper cannot be assessed without the analysis of craniometric data relating to northern groups of Karelians. Measurements of a number of 19th–early 20th-century cranial series from northwestern Russia including Karelia are available. Their analysis has revealed significant biological differences between Karelians and their neighbors such as Finns and Lapps, so differentiating those peoples on the basis of craniometric data is relatively easy.
Crania of northern Karelians were excavated from cemeteries at Regjärvi and Chiksha in the Kalevala District of the Republic of Karelia. Results of their study suggest that those groups were not closely related to either Sami or Finns. As it turns out, the rate of microevolutionary changes in northern Karelians was slower than in other Karelian groups. The northern Karelian trait combination, which includes a robust and high braincase, broad face, and sharply protruding nasal bones, reproduces the common Karelian combination in an accentuated form and resembles that displayed by the medieval inhabitants of the northwestern Ladoga coast, who can be regarded as 14th–15th-century Karelians, and even by the Mesolithic people of the Eastern Baltic.
Male crania from Alozero are meso-brachycranic. The braincase is medium long, high (in terms of both basion– bregma and auricular heights), and very wide.The crania are robust, and the enthesial development is strong. The height–length index is rather large, and height–breadth index is medium. The frontal bone is straight and medium wide. Absolute facial height is rather large, whereas the upper facial and the vertical facio-cerebral indices are medium. The bizygomatic breadth is rather large. Both the basion–nasion and the basion–prosthion diameters are large, and the Flower index indicates mesognathy,whereas angles, both total facial and mid-facial, evidence orthognathy. The pyriform aperture is medium wide, and nasal height is rather small. The orbits are wide and medium high, and the orbital index is small. The face is somewhat flattened at the nasion level but sharply profiled at the subspinale level. The nasal bridge is medium wide and very convex both absolutely (in terms of dacryal and simotic subtenses) and relatively, in terms of indices. The nasal protrusion angle is very large.
As demonstrated in our previous publications, all recent Karelian series share the same trait combination:meso-brachycrany, a wide, medium long, and very high braincase, a medium high face, mesognathic according to Flower’s index and orthognathic according to facial angles. Facial breadth is considerable in northern Karelian groups and medium in those from central and southern Karelia. A very unusual combination, shared by all Karelian series, is facial flatness (by Europeanstandards) at the nasion level co-occurring with asharp mid-facial profile and a sharply protruding nose. In this respect, the late medieval sample from Alozero resembles other Karelian series including the 14th–15th-century group from Kylälahti.
The female group from Alozero displays certain differences from other Karelian series. The Alozero females are characterized by smaller horizontal diameters of the braincase; the cranial height is relativelylarge. The facial profile is more sharply profiled, the nasal bridge is very convex, and the nasal prominence angle is large. A sharp facial profile at both the upper and the middle level distinguishes female crania from male ones. This may be due to admixture, but the smallsample size does not warrant definite conclusions. Also,the number of female cranial series from northwestern Russia available for comparison is small. It can be stated with certainty, however, that the specicity of Alozero females is not due to Sami admixture. In fact, the female group is even further from the Sami series than male.
The within-group analysis reveals that two rather distinct trait combinations are present in the Alozero series. The first is represented by most male crania from both undisturbed and disturbed burials. Its distinctive features are robustness, a very high vault, a wide and somewhat flattened face, and a relatively less convex nasal bridge. The second combination is observed in redeposited crania from disturbed burials and is unusual for Karelians. These crania are considerably more gracile, with lower braincases, narrow faces, and a somewhat sharper facial and especially nasal profile.
Given that cranial height is very informative for group differentiation in northwestern Russia, the Alozero group was subdivided in two subgroups: one composedof crania with high braincases, another consisting of crania with lower braincases. We recognize that this subdivision is artificial, but it is supported by other traits, and the difference between the two subgroups is hardly due to correlations at the individual level, which are to be expected within a homogeneous group. What we observe instead resembles the pattern of between-group variation in northwestern Russia. The trait combination shown by most female crania agrees with that in the low-vaulted malesubgroup since it includes a sharper horizontal facial profile and a more convex nasal bridge.The position of the Alozero group and its two morphological constituents among the groups of northwestern Russia and the adjacent territories was assessed using the canonical variate analysis, whereby the male series was compared with forty-six other recent samples. Apart from Karelian ones, we used those relating to Finns, Estonians, Sami, Ingrians, Komi-Zyrians, northern Russians and Swedes.
The first CV is mostly defined by horizontal facial profile angles, nasal protrusion angle, facial height, and cranial length. Judging by the trait loadings, horizontal facial flattening and low face correlate with a weakly protruding nose and brachycrany. This apparently reveals the Sami complex. Indeed, extreme values on this axis are shown by Sami, on the one hand, and by Swedes and southern Finns, on the other.
Traits playing a key role in the second CV are cranial height and breadth, frontal and facial breadth, and nasal protrusion angle. Horizontal facial angles are involved too(although less so than in the first CV), but their loadings are oppositely not similarly directed. A high braincase,wide frontal bone, wide and high face, and sharply protruding nasal bones co-occur with facial flattening at the upper angle despite a sharper mid-facial profile. The position of groups on the graph demonstrates the existence of a specific combination of cranial traits, which the Karelians share with Komi-Zyrians and some other groups. The fact that Sami, certain Finns, Swedes, and Estonians take the opposite extreme does not imply their similarity but only their remoteness from the “Karelian” trait combination. The two opposite combinations, shown by Karelians, Komi-Zyrians, and Ingrians, on the one hand, and Sami, on the other, define the general pattern of group differentiation. Estonians, Russians, and Finns are intermediate. Certain Finnish and Estonian groups,however, deviate from the Russians toward the Sami. Only the Russian group from the island of Kizhi on Lake Onega is situated within the Sami variation range. Two trait combinations were separated in this population. One resembles that seen in Sami groups, while another is similar to the Karelian combination.The Alozero series is close to other Karelian groups and is intermediate between those from northern and central Karelia, suggesting that
various components took part in it's origin.
On the chart, the Alozero subgroup with a high vault is closest to the Karelian group from Chiksha. This is a supposedly ancestral variant of the Karelian cranial complex, one that had survived in a territory west and northwest of Lake Ladoga until the mass migration of Karelians to what is now middle and northern Karelia and even later, as evidenced by recent groups of northern Karelians. The Alozero low-vaulted subgroup, by contrast, falls outside the Karelian variation range, joining northern Finns and northern Russians. It is closest to the Finnish group from the Häme Province and to Russian groups resembling Baltic Finns. To all appearances, this trait combination can be explained by migrations of Finns from central Finland to northern Karelia.
The Alozero low-vaulted subgroup, by contrast, falls outside the Karelian variation range, joining northern Finns and northern Russians. It is closest to the Finnish group from the Häme Province and to Russian groups resembling Baltic Finns. To all appearances, this trait combination can be explained by migrations of Finns from central Finland to northern Karelia.
The results of our analysis suggest that the late 17th– early 19th century population of Alozero, northern Karelia, originated from the mixture of two components. One of them is common to all Karelians throughout their distribution area, being the most expressed in northern groups, which are the most isolated. The combination of a high vault, large face, somewhat flattened at the upper level and sharply profiled at the middle level, and sharply protruding nasal bones, can be regarded as original and ancestral to all Karelians.
Another component, which differs from the former, has been for the first time registered in northwestern Karelia. This trait combination is the closest to that common in recent groups of central Finland. The role of this component in the origin of the Karelians has yet to be evaluated. Importantly, we do not see any traces of the “Laponoid” component, which might be expected if the predecessors of Karelians in the “Lappish Parishes” were the Sami. Our results support the idea that Karelian colonization of the remote northern territories was a rapid process. Perhaps the Sami, if they had indeed lived there, were displaced rather than assimilated by Karelians. None of the three available northern Karelian cranial series, then, points to assimilation of Sami natives by Karelian immigrants as a major factor in the population history of northwestern Karelia. The Sami, if they had indeed inhabited those places, may have abandoned them by the time of Karelian colonization. Alternatively, the ymay have been displaced by the migrants without having left any traces of their presence. The third possibilityworth considering is that the words “Lapps” and “Forest Lapps” do not refer to ancestors of the modern Sami.
The modern Sami inhabit vast territories in four countries. They differ from their neighbors and share numerous elements of culture, language, genetics, and physical type. On the one hand, legends told by people of Alozero and of the neighboring villages Kokorino, Korelaksha, and Voknavolok refer to the “Lapps”, from whom those people supposedly descended. Certain researchers view this as an argument in favor of the considerable role of the Sami substratum in the region. On the other hand, none of the historical sources point to specific places of Sami residence in northwestern Karelia. Nor do we find biological evidence of their presence in that territory. According to V.Ya. Shumkin, the term “Lapps” in Russian historical documents relating to vast territories of northwestern Russia does not refer either to Sami or totheir relatives. Nor are Russian toponyms containing this stem necessarily suggestive of Sami presence. The term may refer to ethnically and biologically diverse groups of people, possibly refugees who had fled to remote forest areas of Karelia and Finland at various times. Shumkin is probably right stating that “those were not ethnic groups, not even disintegrating ones. Rather, they were groups related by subsistence strategy (hunting and gathering) and differing from their neighbors, who were farmers. Their resemblance to the Sami of northern Fennoscandia concerns economy alone, and therefore there is no reason whatsoever to speak of a “southern branch of Sami”. According to the latest field studies, no archaeological facts favor the idea that the 15th–16th century “Lapps” of Karelia can be identified with the Sami. The so-called “Lappish antiquities” of western and northern Karelia, described by late 19th-century ethnographers, who drew upon the local oral tradition, could relate to the15th–18th century Karelians. Not a single undoubtedly Sami category of artifacts has so far been identified in the region. Even in the late 1800s northern Karelians used to call all those living north of them, even in the same small area, “lappalaiset” (Lapps). In fact, we ourselves, during the field seasons of the 1970s and 1980s, heard from our local informant sin Karelia that “those Lapps live 50–100 km north from here”. The name “Lapps” sounded somewhat derogatory, implying some unspecified backwoodsmen allegedly living in remote northern areas. People gave us the same information even in the northernmost villages of Karelia, but, predictably, no Sami were to be found anywhere.The tradition is long standing. Johann Scheffer, in his famous encyclopedia Lapponia, printed in Frankfurtam Main in 1673, mentions that during the first crusade waged by the Swedish king Eric the Saint against the pagans of southern Finland in 1155 some natives fled to the north and were subsequently referred to as “Lapps” by those who had remained. The name meant “exiles”.
It is worth mentioning that all low-vaulted crania, resembling those of Finns, were found only in the infill of graves or in the ground from disturbed burials, implying that they are generally earlier than the high-vaulted crania, which were found in undisturbed burials and in the ground from naturally eroded graves. It is quite likely, then, that the morphological difference correlates with the chronological gap. In other words,two groups differing by origin and non-overlapping in time may have lived in that area. Can it be that the earlier of the two Alozero groups,the one resembling the Finns, descended from the exiles mentioned above – those who were called “Lapps” inthe 12th century? Or did this group descend from later migrants to northwestern Karelia, who had also nothing to do with the Sami but were likewise called “Lapps” by their southern neighbors? The question cannot be answered because the cranial series from Alozerois small and no earlier series are available from theregion. It can only be stated that true “Laponoids” were at least not the only members of the group known as the forest Lapps.
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Connecting the N1c to Siberian genes is flimsy, Estonians and Balts dont have those genes in the same proportion yet are rich in originally Baltic Finnic male lines.Finns have a very large percentage(predominant actually) of the Haplogroup N which is Eurasian,and Swedes and Norwegians have significantly less.In Sweden its mostly the Saami that have it,and in Norway the numbers are very dim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231
This into account Finns are quite different.
Add to that 30% of Finnish males carry Germanic originated yDNA.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/N/
I would be more logical that the autosomal genes come from the Saami, or the paleo population in Finland or from Siberian contacts in the White Sea trade route.
Baltic Finns expanded in Finland during the iron age, the Germanics and Saami where there before.
"If the enemy is not attacking from the East it has flanked." Finnish proverb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu8D9GaQwIs
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Last edited by igo112; 05-25-2015 at 12:40 AM.
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Yes, Uralics have expanded and mixed with Siberians.
"If the enemy is not attacking from the East it has flanked." Finnish proverb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu8D9GaQwIs
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