Question About Interpreting Distant Sephardic Ancestry + Tracing It

[curiousabouthist1212]

Hey everyone,

I'm new to this site and am figuring all my family history out. As far as I know my family were Ashkenazi Jews from Czechoslovakia, Poland (now Ukraine), Lithuania, and Russia. I got the Ancestry test, and was surprised to find 6% Iberian and Italian and 4% Middle Eastern. I told my cousins, and they said 'Oh that's because grandma's family was expelled from Valencia originally.' I was pretty in shock, but it kind of makes sense (if you look at my distant cousins on Ancestry, a bunch of them have Spanish last names; I talked to some of them and they're from Guatemala, Mexico, Costa Rica, and Puerto Rico).
My question is: is this why my best fit does not give me 100% Ashkenazi? or is it cuz Jews are from the area of Lebanon/Israel where the Samaritans still are so every Ashkenazi Jew would get this? and why the Romanian - would that mean sephardic or ashkenazi? and then why is the second result so different? and the third?

Dodecad k7b seemed to be the best 'fit':

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar +25% Romanians_Behar +25% Samaritians_Behar @ 0.411594

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Romanians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 0.411594
2 North_Ossetians_Yunusbayev + Sardinian_HGDP + Sephardic_Jews_Behar + Sephardic_Jews_Behar @ 0.434004
3 C_Italian_Dodecad + Murcia_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar + Turkish_Dodecad @ 0.487971
4 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Romanians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 0.502363
5 Andalucia_1000Genomes + C_Italian_Dodecad + Samaritians_Behar + Turkish_Dodecad @ 0.532950
6 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Romanians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.579648
7 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 0.594456
8 Cantabria_1000Genomes + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad + Samaritians_Behar + Turkish_Dodecad @ 0.629836
9 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.656467
10 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar @ 0.661752
11 C_Italian_Dodecad + Galicia_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar + Turkish_Dodecad @ 0.664137
12 North_Ossetians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP + TSI30_Metspalu @ 0.688342
13 Balkars_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP + Tuscan_HGDP @ 0.688942
14 C_Italian_Dodecad + Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar + Turkish_Dodecad @ 0.694244
15 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar @ 0.700785
16 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad + Samaritians_Behar @ 0.752810
17 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.754338
18 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar @ 0.756757
19 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.757571
20 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Lebanese_Behar + Tuscan_HGDP @ 0.769823

I know this is weaker and that I'm not this exact mix, but it was interesting to see this given the newly hear family history:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.025743
2 Italian_Jewish @ 6.104589
3 Ashkenazi @ 7.420744
4 Algerian_Jewish @ 9.003596
5 Tunisian_Jewish @ 9.224244
6 South_Italian @ 9.501923
7 Libyan_Jewish @ 10.478870
8 East_Sicilian @ 10.613131
9 Central_Greek @ 12.138300
10 West_Sicilian @ 12.333364
11 Italian_Abruzzo @ 13.197989
12 Cyprian @ 15.479240
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.892984
14 Lebanese_Muslim @ 18.434452
15 Tuscan @ 19.232126
16 Syrian @ 19.842520
17 Lebanese_Druze @ 20.352695
18 Palestinian @ 20.421738
19 Samaritan @ 20.843250
20 Jordanian @ 20.931997

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lebanese_Druze +50% Tuscan @ 4.056487

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lebanese_Druze +25% Sephardic_Jewish +25% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.492026

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.965930
2 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia @ 2.986298
3 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia @ 3.037424
4 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Murcia @ 3.039927
5 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.069969
6 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Murcia @ 3.122348
7 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Aragon @ 3.129804
8 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Portuguese @ 3.262441
9 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Aragon @ 3.346412
10 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.354570
11 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.361012
12 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.361981
13 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.363128
14 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.409432
15 Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.438451
16 Algerian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.464019
17 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_French @ 3.471012
18 Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Sephardic_Jewish + Spanish_Valencia @ 3.492026
19 Algerian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia @ 3.516072
20 Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Galicia @ 3.528928

Does anyone have a similar experience? I'm curious about how you'd go about researching the source of this, or if that would even be possible. I am descended from a Rabbi on my grandma's line and was able to trace ancestors from Iberia and Italy, but am not certain about this since they're on Geni.

Thanks in advance

[Sp_loa]

You are actually closer to Sephardi Jews than to Ashkenazi Jews on the calculator you posted.
There were some Sephardi communities in Czechoslovakia (prague) and Southern Poland so it is more than possible that you have Sephardi roots. 4 oracle aren’t that precise. Post the regular oracle (2 populations with percentages)

[curiousabouthist1212]

Why in that calculator and not others, as in which is correct?

Here are my numbers for dodecad k7b: 50% Druze + 50% Northern Italian @ 1.820568

That seems less accurate to me for recent ancestry and even more ‘ancient’

I’m also curious to hear about the towns you know of in Czechoslovakia and Poland that received Sephardim. I think heard Horovice is one of them

[Sp_loa]

Why in that calculator and not others, as in which is correct?

Here are my numbers for dodecad k7b: 50% Druze + 50% Northern Italian @ 1.820568

That seems less accurate to me for recent ancestry and even more ‘ancient’

I’m also curious to hear about the towns you know of in Czechoslovakia and Poland that received Sephardim. I think heard Horovice is one of them

1. Ashkenazi Genome is roughly 50% Levantine (Lebanese, Jordanian, Samaritan...) 50% European (mostly Roman=North Italian)
2. In central Europe (outside of the Balkans)- mainly Vienna, krakow and Budapest. Sephardi families and individual assimilated to almost every Ashkenazi community, but only in the cities I mentioned they lived separately.

Try to post regular oracle for Several Eurogenes and MDLP calculators. What about MDLP WORLD?

[curiousabouthist1212]

Thanks man you’ve been super informative. If it’s mostly that splits why do I get the Iberian on others but not this?

I am confused since I saw people way back on my family tree that went from Spain to Greece and then IDK where, must be East Euro.

Here are my MDLP world results, will upload others when I have more time:

Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 39.61
2 Middle_East 27.87
3 Caucaus_Parsia 19.70
4 North_and_East_European 9.92


Finished reading population data. 257 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Jew_France @ 5.535614
2 Jew_Italia @ 5.647145
3 Jew_Romania @ 6.434591
4 Ashkenazim @ 6.442393
5 Sicilian @ 6.683639
6 Greek_Cretan @ 6.882432
7 Sephardim @ 8.097819
8 Greek_East @ 9.839188
9 Jew_Algeria @ 9.896110
10 Italian-Center @ 10.066288
11 Italian-South @ 10.110089
12 Greek_Center @ 11.508510
13 Jew_Tunisia @ 11.861466
14 Jew_Morocco @ 12.227105
15 Greek_South @ 12.692777
16 Ashkenazim_V @ 13.395391
17 Greek_North @ 13.509436
18 Cypriot @ 13.886428
19 Jew_Libya @ 14.566853
20 Jew_Syria @ 15.297737

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Jew_Romania +50% Jew_Italia @ 1.219316


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Jew_Romania +25% Jew_Morocco +25% Greek_Cretan @ 1.111156


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cypriot + Jew_France + Jew_Tunisia + Macedonian @ 0.960346
2 Jew_Yemen + Chechen + Sardinian + Italian-North @ 0.971928
3 Cypriot + Jew_Italia + Jew_Tunisia + Macedonian @ 0.976549
4 Cypriot + Ashkenazim_V + Jew_Romania + Jew_Morocco @ 1.044008
5 Jew_Syria + Sephardim + Sephardim + Macedonian @ 1.069267
6 Jew_Syria + Jew_France + Bulgarian + Sephardim @ 1.086935
7 Jew_Syria + Ashkenazim_V + Jew_Morocco + Italian-Center @ 1.087246
8 Jew_Syria + Jew_Romania + Jew_Libya + Italian-North @ 1.097689
9 Jew_Romania + Jew_Romania + Jew_Morocco + Greek_Cretan @ 1.111156
10 Jew_Syria + Ashkenazim_V + Greek_Center + Jew_Morocco @ 1.118243
11 Jew_Yemen + Chechen + Sardinian + Corsican @ 1.121658
12 Jew_Romania + Greek_North + Jew_Tunisia + Sephardim @ 1.124983
13 Jew_Yemen + Adygei + Sardinian + Italian-North @ 1.138160
14 Jew_Syria + Jew_Italia + Bulgarian + Sephardim @ 1.140699
15 Jew_Romania + Jew_Romania + Jew_Italia + Sephardim @ 1.147879
16 Cypriot + Jew_France + Jew_Libya + Macedonian @ 1.156805
17 Samaritian + Jew_Romania + Greek_Cretan + Corsican @ 1.156922
18 Cypriot + Serbian + Jew_Tunisia + Sephardim @ 1.165489
19 Cypriot + Jew_Italia + Montenegrin + Jew_Tunisia @ 1.167268
20 Jew_Yemen + Lezgin + Sardinian + Corsican @ 1.172108

Any thoughts on these?

[curiousabouthist1212]

Like why do some say Spanish, some italian

[Sp_loa]

Thanks man you’ve been super informative. If it’s mostly that splits why do I get the Iberian on others but not this?

I am confused since I saw people way back on my family tree that went from Spain to Greece and then IDK where, must be East Euro.

Here are my MDLP world results, will upload others when I have more time:

Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 39.61
2 Middle_East 27.87
3 Caucaus_Parsia 19.70
4 North_and_East_European 9.92


Finished reading population data. 257 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Jew_France @ 5.535614
2 Jew_Italia @ 5.647145
3 Jew_Romania @ 6.434591
4 Ashkenazim @ 6.442393
5 Sicilian @ 6.683639
6 Greek_Cretan @ 6.882432
7 Sephardim @ 8.097819
8 Greek_East @ 9.839188
9 Jew_Algeria @ 9.896110
10 Italian-Center @ 10.066288
11 Italian-South @ 10.110089
12 Greek_Center @ 11.508510
13 Jew_Tunisia @ 11.861466
14 Jew_Morocco @ 12.227105
15 Greek_South @ 12.692777
16 Ashkenazim_V @ 13.395391
17 Greek_North @ 13.509436
18 Cypriot @ 13.886428
19 Jew_Libya @ 14.566853
20 Jew_Syria @ 15.297737

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Jew_Romania +50% Jew_Italia @ 1.219316


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Jew_Romania +25% Jew_Morocco +25% Greek_Cretan @ 1.111156


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cypriot + Jew_France + Jew_Tunisia + Macedonian @ 0.960346
2 Jew_Yemen + Chechen + Sardinian + Italian-North @ 0.971928
3 Cypriot + Jew_Italia + Jew_Tunisia + Macedonian @ 0.976549
4 Cypriot + Ashkenazim_V + Jew_Romania + Jew_Morocco @ 1.044008
5 Jew_Syria + Sephardim + Sephardim + Macedonian @ 1.069267
6 Jew_Syria + Jew_France + Bulgarian + Sephardim @ 1.086935
7 Jew_Syria + Ashkenazim_V + Jew_Morocco + Italian-Center @ 1.087246
8 Jew_Syria + Jew_Romania + Jew_Libya + Italian-North @ 1.097689
9 Jew_Romania + Jew_Romania + Jew_Morocco + Greek_Cretan @ 1.111156
10 Jew_Syria + Ashkenazim_V + Greek_Center + Jew_Morocco @ 1.118243
11 Jew_Yemen + Chechen + Sardinian + Corsican @ 1.121658
12 Jew_Romania + Greek_North + Jew_Tunisia + Sephardim @ 1.124983
13 Jew_Yemen + Adygei + Sardinian + Italian-North @ 1.138160
14 Jew_Syria + Jew_Italia + Bulgarian + Sephardim @ 1.140699
15 Jew_Romania + Jew_Romania + Jew_Italia + Sephardim @ 1.147879
16 Cypriot + Jew_France + Jew_Libya + Macedonian @ 1.156805
17 Samaritian + Jew_Romania + Greek_Cretan + Corsican @ 1.156922
18 Cypriot + Serbian + Jew_Tunisia + Sephardim @ 1.165489
19 Cypriot + Jew_Italia + Montenegrin + Jew_Tunisia @ 1.167268
20 Jew_Yemen + Lezgin + Sardinian + Corsican @ 1.172108

Any thoughts on these?

What about regular oracle (instead of clicking on oracle 4 click on the other oracle in Gedmatch)

[curiousabouthist1212]

Regular oracle MDLP World:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 39.61
2 Middle_East 27.87
3 Caucaus_Parsia 19.7
4 North_and_East_European 9.92
5 Sub_Saharian 0.93
6 East_Asian 0.91
7 Arctic_Amerind 0.65
8 North_Asian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_France 5
2 Jew_Italia 5.11
3 Jew_Romania 5.83
4 Sicilian 6.08
5 Greek_Cretan 6.14
6 Ashkenazim 6.71
7 Sephardim 7.3
8 Greek_East 8.91
9 Jew_Algeria 9.09
10 Italian-Center 9.12
11 Italian-South 9.18
12 Greek_Center 10.41
13 Jew_Tunisia 10.77
14 Jew_Morocco 11.06
15 Greek_South 11.46
16 Ashkenazim_V 12.03
17 Greek_North 12.19
18 Cypriot 12.4
19 Jew_Libya 13.28
20 Jew_Syria 13.73

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.8% Jew_Romania + 44.2% Sephardim @ 1.18
2 53.5% Jew_Italia + 46.5% Jew_Romania @ 1.23
3 53.1% Jew_Tunisia + 46.9% Greek_North @ 1.33
4 84.9% Greek_East + 15.1% Jew_Yemen @ 1.57
5 61.5% Jew_Romania + 38.5% Jew_Algeria @ 1.6
6 65.6% Jew_Romania + 34.4% Jew_Tunisia @ 1.65
7 54.3% Jew_France + 45.7% Jew_Romania @ 1.67
8 65.3% Jew_Syria + 34.7% Portugese @ 1.71
9 74.5% Italian-Center + 25.5% Palestinian @ 1.73
10 51.6% Jew_Tunisia + 48.4% Greek_South @ 1.75
11 85% Italian-Center + 15% Saudi @ 1.76
12 76.4% Italian-Center + 23.6% Samaritian @ 1.81
13 84.6% Italian-Center + 15.4% Jew_Yemen @ 1.82
14 52.2% Greek_North + 47.8% Jew_Libya @ 1.82
15 84.1% Greek_East + 15.9% Bedouin @ 1.84
16 84.9% Italian-South + 15.1% Saudi @ 1.85
17 84.1% Sephardim + 15.9% Latvian_V @ 1.86
18 85.3% Greek_East + 14.7% Saudi @ 1.89
19 82.8% Greek_Center + 17.2% Jew_Yemen @ 1.9
20 66.5% Jew_Romania + 33.5% Jew_Morocco @ 1.98

[Sp_loa]

Regular oracle MDLP World:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 39.61
2 Middle_East 27.87
3 Caucaus_Parsia 19.7
4 North_and_East_European 9.92
5 Sub_Saharian 0.93
6 East_Asian 0.91
7 Arctic_Amerind 0.65
8 North_Asian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_France 5
2 Jew_Italia 5.11
3 Jew_Romania 5.83
4 Sicilian 6.08
5 Greek_Cretan 6.14
6 Ashkenazim 6.71
7 Sephardim 7.3
8 Greek_East 8.91
9 Jew_Algeria 9.09
10 Italian-Center 9.12
11 Italian-South 9.18
12 Greek_Center 10.41
13 Jew_Tunisia 10.77
14 Jew_Morocco 11.06
15 Greek_South 11.46
16 Ashkenazim_V 12.03
17 Greek_North 12.19
18 Cypriot 12.4
19 Jew_Libya 13.28
20 Jew_Syria 13.73

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.8% Jew_Romania + 44.2% Sephardim @ 1.18
2 53.5% Jew_Italia + 46.5% Jew_Romania @ 1.23
3 53.1% Jew_Tunisia + 46.9% Greek_North @ 1.33
4 84.9% Greek_East + 15.1% Jew_Yemen @ 1.57
5 61.5% Jew_Romania + 38.5% Jew_Algeria @ 1.6
6 65.6% Jew_Romania + 34.4% Jew_Tunisia @ 1.65
7 54.3% Jew_France + 45.7% Jew_Romania @ 1.67
8 65.3% Jew_Syria + 34.7% Portugese @ 1.71
9 74.5% Italian-Center + 25.5% Palestinian @ 1.73
10 51.6% Jew_Tunisia + 48.4% Greek_South @ 1.75
11 85% Italian-Center + 15% Saudi @ 1.76
12 76.4% Italian-Center + 23.6% Samaritian @ 1.81
13 84.6% Italian-Center + 15.4% Jew_Yemen @ 1.82
14 52.2% Greek_North + 47.8% Jew_Libya @ 1.82
15 84.1% Greek_East + 15.9% Bedouin @ 1.84
16 84.9% Italian-South + 15.1% Saudi @ 1.85
17 84.1% Sephardim + 15.9% Latvian_V @ 1.86
18 85.3% Greek_East + 14.7% Saudi @ 1.89
19 82.8% Greek_Center + 17.2% Jew_Yemen @ 1.9
20 66.5% Jew_Romania + 33.5% Jew_Morocco @ 1.98

According to this one you seem to be about half Sephardi half Ashkenazi. Check like this many calculators. If it’s a pattern that repeats itself then it is probably right.

[curiousabouthist1212]

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately they're all pretty different, I'll post 'em soon.