Classify Five Good Emperors

**Saruman** · 05-26-2010, 12:09 PM

Since the first five rulers – from Nerva to Marcus Aurelius – are seen as representing a line of virtuous and just rule, they also have been dubbed the Five Great Emperors.

A unique feature of these Emperors is their method of succession, under which an Emperor adopted the candidate of his choice to be his successor. Under Roman law, an adoption established a bond legally as strong as that of kinship. Because of this, these rulers are also called Adoptive Emperors.

I. Nerva, (96-98), "grey-haired" Day (2001) 106, irrelevant

II. Trajan, (98-117), "golden-haired" (caesaries) Sieglin (1935) 109

III. Hadrian, (117-138), "dark-haired" (κυανοχαιτα) Sieglin (1935) 112 "grey-eyed" (γλαυκόφθαλμος) Malalas, XI, 277

IV. Antoninus Pius, (138-161) "grey/white-haired" (πολιός) Malalas, XI, 280 irrelevant obviously, "wine-coloured eyes" (οινοπαης τους οφθαλμούς) Malalas, XI, 280

V. Marcus Aurelius, (161-180) no data on pigmentation.

**Saruman** · 05-26-2010, 03:51 PM

Nobody? We can't leave great Roman emperors without classification.

OK then:

Nerva - Dinaro-Alpinoid
Trajan - Nordid-Dinarid with Cromagno-Alpinoid influence
Hadrian - Atlanto-Nordid with Dinaro-Cromagnoid/Borreby influence
Antoninus Pius - Atlanto-Nordid+Dinarid
Marcus Aurelius - Atlanto-Nordid/Atlantid +Dinarid

**Agrippa** · 05-26-2010, 04:14 PM

Nerva Dinarid-Alpinoid
Trajan Atlanto-Nordid with strong Dinarid and low Cromagno-Alpinoid influences, approaches somewhat "Keltic Nordic" and "Baskid" I'd say.
Nerva the same basically, if one substitutes Cromagno-Alpinoid with Cromagnid.
Antoninus Pius + Marcus Aurelius look to me rather Atlanto-Nordid/Nordo-Mediterranid of some sort + Dinarid and if at all just little Cromagnid influences.

All quite progressive and largely fit into the Mediterranid-/Atlanto-Nordid with Dinarid and Alpinoid tendencies scheme of the basic Roman population type. This was a rather stable breed, going after the cemeteries, similar to "Keltic Nordic", just somewhat shorter, more robust and broader build - so a little bit more of a Cromagno-Alpinoid strain or tendency at work in comparison.

**Saruman** · 05-26-2010, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Nerva Dinarid-Alpinoid
Trajan Atlanto-Nordid with strong Dinarid and low Cromagno-Alpinoid influences, approaches somewhat "Keltic Nordic" and "Baskid" I'd say.
Nerva the same basically, if one substitutes Cromagno-Alpinoid with Cromagnid.
Antoninus Pius + Marcus Aurelius look to me rather Atlanto-Nordid/Nordo-Mediterranid of some sort + Dinarid and if at all just little Cromagnid influences.

It looked to me the last two were shorter skulled so that's why I placed them more to dinarid. I couldn't find perfect shot, but since they don't seem to have high vaults, longer it is probably.

edit:
I found one good of Marcus Aurelius and yes longer it is

**Agrippa** · 05-26-2010, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Saruman

It looked to me the last two were shorter skulled so that's why I placed them more to dinarid. I couldn't find perfect shot, but since they don't seem to have high vaults, longer it is probably.

That was my impression too, but only "partial Dinaricised" and the face + headshape overall still points to a strong leptodolichomorphic tendency and I had less of a problem with the stronger Dinarid elemetn, but the absense of Atlanto-Nordid and presense of much stronger Cromagnoid.

I just don't see such a strong Cromagnoid influence in the last two, even less if comparing them with the first two.

Also I'm rather careful about those people in their historical reality, because if looking at the busts of Caesar in particular, those show a variation of phenotypes rather - one can imagine roughly were fits into, but some depictions are idealised - some show him almost as the ideal progressive-Europid leader-type so to say, others a rather average person with not so impressive features.

The later Emperors are more realistically potrayed most of the time, but still the artistic freedom and differences seem to be obvious.

Overall, in all of them the leptodolichomorphic element is evident though, be it rather Mediterranid or Nordid - for the later blond hair and/or light eyes are in such cases (if the morphology could fit) still the best indicator of course.

The Nordoid-Atlantomediterranid element surely was rather Dinaroid influenced/"Keltic Nordic-like" after all we know, so for a comparison the cranial shape is crucial (Dinarid vs. Atlanto-Nordid).

Augustus seems to look like having a more Dinaroid headshape in some depictions.

**Saruman** · 05-26-2010, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Agrippa

That was my impression too, but only "partial Dinaricised" and the face + headshape overall still points to a strong leptodolichomorphic tendency and I had less of a problem with the stronger Dinarid elemetn, but the absense of Atlanto-Nordid and presense of much stronger Cromagnoid.

I just don't see such a strong Cromagnoid influence in the last two, even less if comparing them with the first two.

Well since I wrongly thought they were short skulled, I then tried to explain their not very dinarid noses with CM admixture, like in Antoninus Pius (I see in this new photo that Aurelius had more convex nose though). And also their beards can fool, give impression of wider mandibles. An example of one mistake leading to more.

**mustangeroo** · 05-30-2010, 01:44 PM

What classification would most ancient Romans fall under? If there is any truth to "legends" the Romans nobility believed they originated in Troy and the lesser citizens were from the conquered tribes of the italian peninsula. I would imagine both groups would have been different than modern Italians who are the product of many subsequent invasions by germanic tribes (Goths, Vandals, Suebi and Alan).

So who were the original Romans? If the nobility came from Troy wouldn't they be related to the people who eventually replaced them? Assuming Trojan were indo-european.

**Agrippa** · 05-30-2010, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by mustangeroo

What classification would most ancient Romans fall under? If there is any truth to "legends" the Romans nobility believed they originated in Troy and the lesser citizens were from the conquered tribes of the italian peninsula. I would imagine both groups would have been different than modern Italians who are the product of many subsequent invasions by germanic tribes (Goths, Vandals, Suebi and Alan).

So who were the original Romans? If the nobility came from Troy wouldn't they be related to the people who eventually replaced them? Assuming Trojan were indo-european.

Like I wrote above already:

All quite progressive and largely fit into the Mediterranid-/Atlanto-Nordid with Dinarid and Alpinoid tendencies scheme of the basic Roman population type. This was a rather stable breed, going after the cemeteries, similar to "Keltic Nordic", just somewhat shorter, more robust and broader build - so a little bit more of a Cromagno-Alpinoid strain or tendency at work in comparison.