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Thread: The making of the fyroMacedonian language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa View Post
    This is the biggest load of bull shit I've ever heard about.And it's spelled Bulgarian/s not Bulgars......Cloun
    It's spelled Clown, not Cloun...blgr


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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    The fyroMacedonian language is a politcal fact today. It is however doubtful that it is stabilized enough, since it is a very recent phenomenon- it exists since 1944. The vernacular spoken in and around Skopie for example can more accurately be described as a heavily creolized Serbo-Bulgarian. And what they speak in Southern and especially Eastern Macedonia is closer to Bulgarian standard. There is virtually no clear border between the dialects spoken in Bulgaria and fyroMacedonia.

    Bulgarian itself is a pluricentric language and the norm in fyroMacedonia can be described as another standardization of the same language. Along with Banat Bulgarian which uses the latin alphabet there are in all 3 standardized varieties of Bulgarian. A situation somewhat similar to the case of Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans.

    Dusan, mate, I do not think you have the right to participate in any debate concerning the matter wheather fyroMacedonian and Bulgarian are one or two different languages since you do not have command of either.
    There was NO creation of Macedonian language, simply a dialect of Macedonian was chosen to be the basis for Standard Macedonian. And because this occurred later than other languages doesn't make the language artificial nor "created".
    Dusan, mate, I do not think you have the right to participate in any debate concerning the matter wheather fyroMacedonian and Bulgarian are one or two different languages since you do not have command of either.
    Says the Bulgarian. Leave it to real Macedonians to define the language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duan View Post
    There was NO creation of Macedonian language, simply a dialect of Macedonian was chosen to be the basis for Standard Macedonian. And because this occurred later than other languages doesn't make the language artificial nor "created".


    Says the Bulgarian. Leave it to real Macedonians to define the language.
    There is no such thing dialect of Macedonian.
    Most Bulgarian linguists consider the Slavic dialects spoken in the region of Macedonia as a part of the Bulgarian diasystem.[2][3] Numerous shared features of these dialects with Bulgarian are cited as proof.[4] Bulgarian scholars also claim that the overwhelming majority of the Macedonian population had no conscience of a Macedonian language separate from Bulgarian prior to 1945. Russian scholars cite the early references to the language in Slavic literature from the middle of 10th century to the end of 19th century as "bulgarski" or "bolgarski" as proof of that claim.[5] From that, the conclusion is drawn that modern standard Macedonian is not a language separate from Bulgarian either but just another written "norm" based on a set of Bulgarian dialects. See dialect and dialect continuum to assess the validity of these arguments. Moreover, Bulgarian linguists assert that the Macedonian and Yugoslav linguists who were involved in codifying the new language artificially introduced differences from literary Bulgarian to bring it closer to Serbian.[6]. They are also said to have resorted to falsifications and deliberate misinterpretations of history and documents in order to further the claim that there was a consciousness of a separate Macedonian ethnicity before 1944.[7] Part of Bulgarian scholars and people hold the view that Macedonian is one of three "norms" of the Bulgarian language, the other two being standard Bulgarian and the language of the Banat Bulgarians.
    Up until 1912/18 it was the standard Bulgarian language that most Macedonians learned (and taught) in the Exarchate schools. All activists and leaders of the Macedonian movement, including those of the left, used standard Bulgarian in documents, press publications, correspondence and memoirs and nothing indicates they viewed it as a foreign language.[12] This is characteristic even of the members of IMRO (United) well into the 1920s and 1930s, when the idea of a distinct Macedonian nation was taking shape.
    there has never been a necessity for the creation of a special literary language to serve the Bulgarian-speaking Slavs residing outside Bulgaria (for example, in Vardar or Aegean Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Rumania, Ukraine). Similarly, there had never been a Macedonian linguistic community dreaming for centuries on end to be recognised for its linguistic uniqueness.
    A very special trick of the Macedonian glossotomists was the choice of the peripheral dialectal area as the dialectal basis of the new language. It lies precisely on the Serbian-Bulgarian language boundary, hence, it represents a transitional dialect to Serbian. Another town could have been chosen instead ot Skopie as capital (in the linguistic aspect too), such as Okhrida, but it would have made the difference with Bulgarian hardly discernable. The inner structure of the new language follows lexically and morphologically [6] the Serbian model enforced through the Belgrade Radio and TV, received everywhere. The new language served the rule: the more non-Bulgarian, the more Macedonian! The strengthening of the Serbian influence meant Macedonia's estrangement from Bulgaria politically and culturally as well [7] (something passed unnoticed by Europe). Bulgarian studies were not taught in Yugoslavia's universities, as they were replaced by Macedonian studies (and that, needless to say, held good of Skopje). Bulgarian was converted into an anti-language.

    In the lingual-geographic aspect, the "Macedonian" dialects were declared all too unique, having nothing in common with Bulgarian. This explains why a Macedonian dialectal atlas was never released. Every dialectologist is well aware that there is no dialectical boundary to separate Bulgaria from Macedonia (see the maps at the end of this article), and that intrinsic Macedonian peculiarities (such as the triple article, instead of Щ, etc.) are common in Bulgaria too. Hence, the whole thing smells of Stalin-styled misinformation which was successful in misleading even some representatives of "critical" Slavonic studies in the West. [8]



    Dusan, you lack sufficient knowledge to argue with me on this matter. Unlike you I am fluent in Bulgarian. I can easily understand standard fyroMacedonian since it is mutually intelligible with Bulgarian. I have also visited the republic for two weeks several years ago. I have also known numerous people in Sofia from fyroMacedonia over the years.

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    Dusan, you lack sufficient knowledge to argue with me on this matter. Unlike you I am fluent in Bulgarian. I can easily understand standard fyroMacedonian since it is mutually intelligible with Bulgarian. I have also visited the republic for two weeks several years ago. I have also known numerous people in Sofia from fyroMacedonia over the years.

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    I have enough knowledge of both languages to know Macedonian is a separate language just like Slovak is not a dialect of Czech. If you want to believe Macedonian is not a real language but a dialect of Bulgarian then more power to you... but that won't make Macedonians turn Bulgarian.

    Going to be my last post in your deranged threads to turn us to "Bulgarianhood"

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    Quote Originally Posted by duan View Post
    i have enough knowledge of both languages to know macedonian is a separate language just like slovak is not a dialect of czech. If you want to believe macedonian is not a real language but a dialect of bulgarian then more power to you... But that won't make macedonians turn bulgarian.

    Going to be my last post in your deranged threads to turn us to "bulgarianhood"
    Дълбоко се съмнявам в истинността на това ти твърдение.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
    It's spelled Clown, not Cloun...blgr
    Do you want to play this game?You got it, sugar tits.Your spellings are simply showing a lack knowledge in English.There is big difference between the ignorance such as yours and a grammatical error caused by using a phone.Therefore I'd suggest you to go back to milk sheeps.Peasent
    "Човек дори и добре да живее умира и друг се ражда, но оставя това което е съградил."

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    There is no such thing dialect of Macedonian.



    Dusan, you lack sufficient knowledge to argue with me on this matter. Unlike you I am fluent in Bulgarian. .
    Let clarify some things. In witch bulgarian you are fluent? This one???

    http://turkic-languages.scienceontheweb.net/

    Bulgaric

    According to the present study, the Bulgaric languages apparently branched off from the Turkic languages at a rather early period of time—c. 1100-500 BC (much earlier than normally cited), though the exact date cannot be calculated with precision due to possible lexicostatistical fluctuations. For all practical purposes, one should remember that the difference between Bulgaric and Turkic is considerable, and they should rather be viewed separately from each other. As we mentioned above, they may also be regarded as a Bulgaro-Turkic (super)group, but not just mixed up. Herein, we consistently use the term "Turkic (Proper)" to refer only to the languages outside Bulgaric.

    Or this one??

    http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

    Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.
    Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.

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    Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century

    Un Lexique Macedonien du XVie siecle. Institut d'Etudes Slaves del'Universite de Paris. Giannelli, Ciro and Andre Vaillant. 1958.


    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p00.png

    Macedonia during the Middle Ages

    By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.

    Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.

    Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics

    The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.

    Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).

    Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).

    Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.

    Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’, although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.

    Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.

    Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.

    16th cent., Kostur dialect
    21st cent., Bitola dialect

    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.

    Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
    Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.

    As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.

    All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p23.png

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p24.png

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p25.png

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p26.png

    There is more but enough for you.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    Let clarify some things. In witch bulgarian you are fluent?
    Analytical Balkano-Slavic aka Bulgarian

    [YOUTUBE]pbxOa31XzFM[/YOUTUBE]
    Albania

    [YOUTUBE]Oz-9jjXi4AY[/YOUTUBE]
    Bulgaria

    [YOUTUBE]PiMbOBaBpS8[/YOUTUBE]
    fyroMacedonia

    [YOUTUBE]p_S1I1O-G80[/YOUTUBE]
    Serbia

    [YOUTUBE]dAFyhl2VpqQ[/YOUTUBE]
    Greece

    [YOUTUBE]xU3v14C5RS0[/YOUTUBE]
    Banat, Romania

    [YOUTUBE]66hDNeLehmo[/YOUTUBE]
    Besarabia, Moldova and Ukraine

    Of course I am fluent only in standard Bulgarian as spoken in the rep. of Bulgaria. But I do understand the norm in fyroMacedonia and the codified vernacular of the Banat Bulgarians as well. As I have stated earlier in this thread Bulgarian is a pluricentric language with at the present moment 3\three standardized versions.

    http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

    Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.
    Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.
    This is not a serious source, hence you'll have to forgive me for not commenting on it.

    I don't see any comments on your part concerning the quotes in this :post of mine... nor the three posts in the begining of the thread which are also quotes.

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