Middle to late Neolithic 6,625-4,025 year old mtDNA and Y DNA from German

[Fire Haired]

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[Black Wolf]

Okay well there is a chance that some H was present in mainly Southern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic but a good amount no doubt also came to Europe from the Near East or spread from the Balkans during the Neolithic. Probably the very best candidates when it come to mtDNA haplogroups carrying farming and the Neolithic lifestyle into Europe from wither the Near East or Balkans are J and T.

[Fire Haired]

there is no DNA evidence that mtDNA H was spread to Europe from the mid east just because Paloithci European remains have almost no mtDNA H it not good enough evidence'

all the major mtDNA H subclades in Europe are very very very rare in teh mid east they all orignated in Europe t least 15,000 ybp so that measn almost all mtDNA H in Europe was already there in teh Paloithci and Mesloithci age and did not come from teh mid east u cant create an argument for what i just said mtDnA H IN EUROPE DID NOT COME FROM THE MID EAST

mtDNA H in europe has been there for over 33,000 years they dont decend from mid eastern mtDNA H subclades my prooof is 28,000 year old bone in south tip of Italy had MtDNA H it rpobably arrived in Europe throughteh CAucus mountains over 33,000ybp mtDNA H6 which is in over 40% of people in Ukraine and parts of Russia was found in a 15,000 year old remains in northern Spain mtDNA H1 and H3 which take up over 40% of northern Spainish is less than 5% in the mid east it orignated in Spain over 15,000ybp a H1b sample was found in portugal from 9,500ybp that is before farming spread to Spain so what u are saying makes no sense there is no evidence it spread from the mid east or rapidly grew in Europe less than 10,000ybp

u cant just say mtDNA H look at the subclades if u combine mtDNA of all European populations about 60-75% decends from mtDNA that came to Europe 50,000-35,000ybp this means modern Europeans mtDNA haplogroups mainly decend from the earliest settlers of Europe aka Cro Magnon man also the K7b austomnal DNA group "Atalntic Baltic" it is called that because t is mainly in around the atlantic baltic seas in north europe but is is over 65-70% in all of Europe except Greece and Italy it is the only austomnal group that originated in Europe probably over 30,000ybp 7,000 year old Mesolithic hunter gather in Spain this guys people almost definaly decended from Cro Magnon man who had lived in Europe and had probably no mid eastern blood he had 90.7% Atlantic Baltic

modern Europeans are almost defintley close to 100% decended from people who came 35,000-50,000ybp and if they had mainly mtDNA that came from the mid east just 10,000-6,000ybp then tehy would be mid eastern mtDNA is never spread with new culture it is always Y DNA because men fight in wars and kill other men and take the native women as slaves and wives i cant imagnie them spreading mtDNA all they spread was Y DNA which was G2a and is 80% in 30 Y DNA samples from Neolithic Europe usulley mtDNA never changes on average europeans ahve about 6-10% west Asian globe13 austomnal DNA but only in areas farming spread and Y DNA G2a is centered in teh Caucus mountains which is where west asian aust DNA is most popular so that is probably teh only ancestry europeans have from those farmers the rest is Mesolithic and Paloithci

[Black Wolf]

^Can you not read what I wrote above? I said ''There is a chance that some H was present in mainly Southern Europe during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic.'' And also like I said I still think a good amount spread out from either the Balkans or Near East during the Neolithic. Until more ancient Upper Paleolithic or Mesolithic H samples turn up I will think that way. BTW there is a good chance that the so called H1 Paglicci sample from Southern Italy you mention may be contaminated with modern DNA. From Dienekes blog quoting the Fu et a. paper ''The only outlier in the European context is Paglicci Str. 4b which is assigned to haplogroup H1. However:
Using this criterion, we excluded Paglicci Str. 4b from further analysis as the rate of C to T misincorporation at the 50 end was only 8.8%, thus making an ancient origin for the DNA in this sample uncertain [14].''


As for the Atlantic_Baltic component from the Dodecad K7b analysis here are Dienekes own words about that component. ''Atlantic_Baltic is a component that reaches its highest levels in the far edge of Europe, i.e., the Atlantic facade and the Baltic area. My analysis of ancient European hunter-gatherers from Iberia and Sweden has shown them to belong ~100% in this component, indicating that it incorporate (while not identical to) the legacy of pre-Neolithic Europe.''

[Fire Haired]

what evidence do u have it only exsisted in teh Balkens??? and southern Europe there is defintly no evidence for the Balkens thing and from what i have heard teh 28,000 year old bone in south italy was not H1 it was just H and that is is offically H and that is only a 8.8% chnace of contamination scientists are very picky and want everything to be exact and 100% for sure but this remains was almost defintley not conatinmted and really did have mtDNA H and i showed in this thread http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...dern-Europeans

most mesloithci mtDNA samples from portugal their 7,500-9,500ybp had mtDNA H 2 out of 3 mtDNA samples from north spain from 15,000ybp had H there was also a 7,500 year old sample from russia with H the main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are H1,H3,H2,H6,H11 all orignated in Europe over 10,000ybp this means there is no way mid eastern farmers made them popular because these groups are very unpopular in the mid east so what u are saying about it spreading from teh mid east is IMPOSSIBLE they where already popular in Europe mtDNA H1 and H3 where spread from Spain 15,000-10,000ybp i explained that in the thread above u have not given me real DNA arguments just assumtions and trusting the less than 30 mtDNA samples we have from pre Neloithci Europe and most come from north europe

[Black Wolf]

^Blah blah blah.

[Fire Haired]

pllease give me a argument that is not just asuming it came from the mid east farmers give me real DNA evidene like this european h subclde is from the mid east and is very popullar without that ur argument is nothing all european H orignated in europe over 10,000ybp and un popular in mid east very very very rarelly do u see H subclades in europe from mid east the whole theory it came from neloithci mid east only evidence is teh very few preNeloithci mtdna samples that we have besides that they have none their whole argument is defeated by what have been saying about the subclades

trust me teh experts will change their opinon soon

[Artek]

what evidence do u have it only exsisted in teh Balkens??? and southern Europe there is defintly no evidence for the Balkens thing and from what i have heard teh 28,000 year old bone in south italy was not H1 it was just H and that is is offically H and that is only a 8.8% chnace of contamination scientists are very picky and want everything to be exact and 100% for sure but this remains was almost defintley not conatinmted and really did have mtDNA H and i showed in this thread http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...dern-Europeans

most mesloithci mtDNA samples from portugal their 7,500-9,500ybp had mtDNA H 2 out of 3 mtDNA samples from north spain from 15,000ybp had H there was also a 7,500 year old sample from russia with H the main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are H1,H3,H2,H6,H11 all orignated in Europe over 10,000ybp this means there is no way mid eastern farmers made them popular because these groups are very unpopular in the mid east so what u are saying about it spreading from teh mid east is IMPOSSIBLE they where already popular in Europe mtDNA H1 and H3 where spread from Spain 15,000-10,000ybp i explained that in the thread above u have not given me real DNA arguments just assumtions and trusting the less than 30 mtDNA samples we have from pre Neloithci Europe and most come from north europe

H lineages were already present in Iberia, you are right. But they were introduced to the most of Europe with Bell Beakers and farmers. Truly old mtDNA lineage for the Europe are U ones, especially after the actual result base.
You can't change that, I know that it must hurt since you are H alone. Being a newcomer

[Fire Haired]

H lineages were already present in Iberia, you are right. But they were introduced to the most of Europe with Bell Beakers and farmers. Truly old mtDNA lineage for the Europe are U ones, especially after the actual result base.
You can't change that, I know that it must hurt since you are H alone. Being a newcomer

how can u say bell beaker spread mtDNA H when Bell BEaker only streched to central Germany and only 4,800ybp why do Finnish have 40% H why do Russians why do Greeks obvisouly it was not Bell BEaker and people never spread mtDNa tehys pread Y DNA mtDNA usulley stays teh same because Y DNA spread from coqnueres mtDNA does not so it would be very hard for bell beaker to spread mtDNA

teh native women of central Germany where not killed off that is teh only way for bell beaker mtDNA to become dominet if most of mtDNA in germany is from Bell Beaker so i think the Bell beaker thing is way to simple and had terrible evidence i want to hear arguments with evidence not just assumptions

like i said about the farmers the main mtDNa H subclades in Europe are H1,H2,H3,H6,H8,H11 these are EXTREMLY EXTREMLY rare in teh mid east and all oirignated in EUROPE OVER 10,000ybp that means they did not come from mid eastern farmers they where already in europe when will u finalley uinderstand that this means it is impossible for it to come from mid eastern farmers so that defeats your argument

ukrianeans have mainly mtDNA H6,H2, and H8 spainish have mainly H1 and H3 they have differnt H subclades that means it comes from a differnt event or origin if all European mtDNA H came from one people grooup in teh neloythci age 6,000-10,000ybp teh mtDNA H subclades in all of Europe would be the same which tehy are not once again i proved that it did not come from the Neolithic


and agian it is very rare in human history for native women insted of teh native men to be killed off from an invading army men fight in wars in all human societies okay dont listen to femist who make up lies the native men are killed off teh women and children are taken as slaves they survive so the mtDNA lineages survive and plus there are no signs that Bell BEaker spread by conquering only their culture spread so the bell beaker argument is terribly weak and teh whole argument i have heard so many times that mtDNA H spread in Europe from mid eastern farmers is really based on the few mtDNA sampkes from pre Neolithic Europe we have and assumptions NO HARD EVIDENCE

i am not ofended if the mtDNA haplogroup i have did not arrive in Europe till the Neolithic i don't care i am just going by facts and by the way they found a 15,000 year old mtDNA sample in Spain with my haplogroup so actulley it was already in europe at least 15,000ybp

u should look at this link http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...uropeans/page2 i mention teh Iberian refuge which spread mtDNA H1, H3, and V acroos europe and north west africa from north spain

i want to hear more of ur arguments about mtDNA H spreading in Neolithic and bell beaker but so far i have not seen any good evidence and i think i have already proved it wrong

[Fire Haired]

H lineages were already present in Iberia, you are right. But they were introduced to the most of Europe with Bell Beakers and farmers. Truly old mtDNA lineage for the Europe are U ones, especially after the actual result base.
You can't change that, I know that it must hurt since you are H alone. Being a newcomer

just because i have mtDNA H does not make me a newcomer because teh ancestry of mtDNA U people who u call teh old Europeans is the same as the H people they are both european austomnal DNA from 7,000 year old U5b hunter gather in Spain he had more european blood than almost any modern europeans teh sami in scandvia have less than 1% mtDNA H but are more european than almost anyone in europe

so if you are right about mtDNA H spreading from mid east in neloithci age that does not make europeans with mtDNA H new comers most of Europeans ancestry probably comes from people who came 40,000-50,000ybp and brought mtNDA U5 and other U lineages in globe13 austomnal DNA north European which represents all Europeans probably came from the U people not H who came 33,000-36,000ybp