Illyrians and Vlachs wannabe as narative of young Montenegrin nation

[Pribislav]

Serbian autochtonists should look up to Romanian Historians. Serbian autochtonists need to take small steps first not to discuss crazy stuff like that which will never be proven anyway.

There is various Serbian autochtonists who different from each other.
For some Serbian ethnonym came from ancient god Serbon (who had a wife Serbona), some say Serbian ethnonym came from onomatopeia 10 000 years ago, some claim (like Milan Paroški) supreme god of ancient Serbs was Ra, for some (like Milan Vidojević) supreme god of ancient Serbs was god with fish face Dagon etc.

[Bosniensis]

There is various Serbian autochtonists who different to each other.
For some Serbian ethnonym came ancient god Serbon (who had wife Serb ona), some say Serbian ethnonym came from onomatopeia 10 000 years ago, some claim (like Milan Paroški) spreme god of ancient Serbs was Ra, for some spreme god of ancient Serbs was god with fish face Dagon etc.

It's embarrassing to talk about things like that.

Serbs are Thraco-Illyrian tribe that later got admixture from Celts and Scythians (Slavs) through migrations, who speak mixed language that got influences from all those peoples. Those who remained Latin speakers
were called Romano-Illyrian later after fall of Western Roman Empire = Vlachs who later lost language and who saved only their pastoral way of life.

Everything else is science fiction mostly.

[Pribislav]

It's embarrassing to talk about things like that.

Serbs are Thraco-Illyrian tribe that later got admixture from Celts and Scythians (Slavs) through migrations, who speak mixed language that got influences from all those peoples. Those who remained Latin speakers
were called Romano-Illyrian later after fall of Western Roman Empire = Vlachs who later lost language and who saved only their pastoral way of life.

Everything else is science fiction mostly.

Illyrian was name invented by Romans for all tribes living in western Balkan. There was no any people in history who call themselves Illyrians.
Similar story is with Thracians.

What are you think about etimology of Milan Paroški?
He say many important Serbian words have ra, like kraj, raj, mrak, brak, zrak, zora, mora, miran etc, and ra is refers of ancient Serbian supreme god Ra.

[ixulescu]

If I would LARP as a Scythian, I would be fully entitled to do so, because they were part of this land and clearly had peaceful relations with Dacians. Romans conquered, destroyed, colonized, stole, and then fucked off in 200 years. Why should I larp as a people that simply used this land? I don't see Algerians thinking they're French just because they speak it, and they probably have more French DNA than we do Roman.

Nobody asks you to larp anyone. Proto-Romanians felt Roman because they were descendants of Roman citizens. They were Roman politically, culturally and linguistically. The Roman empire was multi-ethnic, and so their actual genetic lineage was irrelevant to their claim.

Are you fully Romanian or mixed?

[Bosniensis]

Illyrian was name invented by Romans for all tribes living in western Balkan. There was no any people in history who call themselves Illyrians.
Similar story is with Thracians.

.

I don't want to comment that Ra thing, makes no sense.



Of course there were Illyrians.

In Roman Empire populace was mostly divided into "Illiterate Stock Herders and Farmers, Soldiers, Citizens"

Those stock herders were composed of Tribes and nobody in Cities like (Virminacium, Singidunum) cared how they call themselves even if they were FAR more numerous than city dwellers.

Those who lived in cities and who could understand Latin or Greek were mostly the only important part of 2nd century Serbia, and they were calling villagers = Illyrians. Villagers basically had no identity, they had tribes (bratstva) etc...

but entire administration, chronologists, religious institutions, military barracks, market places... were all in cities, and those "illyrians" could come and trade when they were allowed to do so.

Cities were used as Police Station to control a large masses of Tribal people on Balkans.

That's why after the FALL of Roman Empire, and after Tribal people Organized themselves.. they could not understand their origin and history, cause they were not the rulers, they were ruled by Latin Romanized Illyrians.

That's why average modern Serb can't comprehend the fact that Latin Civilization was part of Serbian history, cause modern Serbs derive from Tribal illiterate villagers.

[Pribislav]

I don't want to comment that Ra thing, makes no sense.



Of course there were Illyrians.

In Roman Empire populace was mostly divided into "Illiterate Stock Herders and Farmers, Soldiers, Citizens"

Those stock herders were composed of Tribes and nobody in Cities like (Virminacium, Singidunum) cared how they call themselves even if they were FAR more numerous than city dwellers.

Those who lived in cities and who could understand Latin or Greek were mostly the only important part of 2nd century Serbia, and they were calling villagers = Illyrians. Villagers basically had no identity, they had tribes (bratstva) etc...

but entire administration, chronologists, religious institutions, military barracks, market places... were all in cities, and those "illyrians" could come and trade when they were allowed to do so.

Cities were used as Police Station to control a large masses of Tribal people on Balkans.

That's why after the FALL of Roman Empire, and after Tribal people Organized themselves.. they could not understand their origin and history, cause they were not the rulers, they were ruled by Latin Romanized Illyrians.

That's why average modern Serb can't comprehend the fact that Latin Civilization was part of Serbian history, cause modern Serbs derive from Tribal illiterate villagers.

If you have a time machine and go somewhere in western Balkan 2500 or 3000 years in the past and ask locals are they Illyrians by ethnicity they would say that they never heard for that term.

[Bosniensis]

If you have time machine and go somewhere in western Balkan 2500 or 3000 years in the past and ask locals are they Illyrians by ethnicity they would say that they never heard for that term.

90% would tell you "We are of that Tribe from Dalmatia near that mountain or river"

But barely 20% people in 200 A.D. Western Balkans were considered Roman Citizens who had knowledge of regional borders etc..

Tribal People had no idea what's border, what's region, what's state, what's law. They were only aware of their fathers, mothers and ancestors and that was their only identification.

Romans basically invented state management, regions, vassalisation and many other things completely unknown to tribals.

[Pribislav]

90% would tell you "We are of that Tribe from Dalmatia near that mountain or river"

But barely 20% people in 200 A.D. Western Balkans were considered Roman Citizens who had knowledge of regional borders etc..

Tribal People had no idea what's border, what's region, what's state, what's law. They were only aware of their fathers, mothers and ancestors and that was their only identification.

Romans basically invented state management, regions, vassalisation and many other things completely unknown to tribals.

Maybe.

Point is that colective Illyrian identity never existed in region which is marked as populated with "Illyrians" by modern historians.
In deeper past people identify themselves with own villages or smaller regions (few surrounding villages), not with something wider.
Problem is in fact that we watch old past 2000 or 3000 years ago with modern glasses from 19th century.

[Bosniensis]

Maybe.

Point is that colective Illyrian identity never existed in region which is marked as populated with "Illyrians" by modern historians.
In deeper past people identify themselves with own villages or smaller regions (few surrounding villages), not with something wider.
Problem is in fact that we watch old past 2000 or 3000 years ago with modern glasses from 19th century.

True.

People don't understand that Roman Cities in Serbia were not a cities as we see it today, for Romans did not understand the concept of State as we know today.

For Romans there was only 1 city = Rome, a hellenic City-State that ruled the World. (like Sparta, Troy, Athens etc..) Virminacium and Singidunum were considered a Roman extraterritorial city-forts for maintaining "Roman order"
supplied with enough soldiers to extort tax and goods for Rome.

All things and goods from all provinces were extorted for Rome.

Roman Empire was tyrannical hellenic city-empire, that absorbed other lesser european cultures into "roman citizens" as long as one was willing to become one. (culture, clothing, language, religion etc..)

Modern brain can't comprehend those things.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Nobody asks you to larp anyone. Proto-Romanians felt Roman because they were descendants of Roman citizens. They were Roman politically, culturally and linguistically. The Roman empire was multi-ethnic, and so their actual genetic lineage was irrelevant to their claim.

Are you fully Romanian or mixed?

LMAO why is it that when a Romanian won't take in the general bullshit that is the standard narrative of Romanian history, they must be asked if they're mixed.

Yes, I am fully Moldavian from Romania.

Romanians were, and are not, descendants of Roman citizens. Not in the kind of citizens that should actually make us feel Roman and not just "educated locals". We were never Roman politically or culturally apart from the 200 years of occupation which had only one purpose: get that gold. Don't give me that bullshit that we celebrate Floriile, we have nothing in common with Romans, but plenty with our neighbours, Serbs, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Hungarians. Romanians should stop feeling special and accept that they're Balkan people. The Germans raped Romans and got raped by Romans for hundreds of years then LARPed with the Holy Roman Empire because they wanted the same glory and ideals. They actually tried to copy the Romans.

We, on the other hand, took care of our sheep in the mountains and spoke broken Latin with Slavic words (which gets pushed further and further back, instead of accepting that the estimated percentages did not account for the vastly more Slavic vocabulary of the peasants. Still Latin, but more Slavic than estimated).

This land (and not even all of it) was Roman for 200 years. Once we came out as a people on the map, 1100 years later, we were indistinguishable from our Slavic neighbours in terms of political structure and culture. We only came up as Roman because we spoke, and still do, a language that was clearly with a different root than our neighbours.

Why did the Byzantines not try to absorb these lands when they still could, since we were so Roman? Why did they not just claim us as their subjects and therefore, Romans, to fight with them? The Byzantines took Dobrogea and made no further incursion in these lands filled with "Romans".

Why did we need Bulgarians to actually bring Christianity in here? There was no continuity, Christianity died in the 4th century and then came back, Jesus Bogomilov, Bulgarian boogaloo. We then helped them out and then the Bulgarians actually claimed this land as their own in a Bulgarian Empire, something that the Byzantines never bothered to do. Why, if we were of their own kind?

Byzantines spoke Greek but for a land filled with gold and a population that should be theoretically positive to welcome them, they really tried nothing, not even Justinian.

We were therefore never the lost people of Rome, not even of Constantinopole, just savages that went through the same ethnogenesis as our fellow Serbs and Bulgarians here, only that we only half-assed the "Speak Slavic now" memo.