Is Finland in Eastern Europe?

**michal3141** · 10-21-2021, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Tomenable

Michał can you post also a similar list for Swedes?

Distance to: Swedish
0.01423567 Danish
0.01658128 Icelandic
0.01856722 Norwegian
0.02135082 Dutch
0.02398250 Orcadian
0.02465163 Scottish
0.02522515 Shetlandic
0.02710744 English
0.02730787 Irish
0.02797627 Welsh
0.02878980 German
0.03012312 English_Cornwall
0.03022331 German_East
0.03231713 Czech
0.03454860 French_Brittany
0.03591492 Afrikaner
0.04053278 Austrian
0.04231066 Hungarian
0.04361770 Slovakian
0.04484374 Belgian
0.04503245 Polish
0.04536027 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04651976 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04778508 French_Nord
0.04908476 Slovenian
0.04965461 French_Alsace
0.04994104 Polish_Kashubian
0.05073996 Croatian
0.05211040 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.05259834 Ukrainian
0.05315984 French_Paris
0.05380313 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05425631 Swiss_German
0.05481578 Moldovan_o
0.05647425 Finnish
0.05648925 Russian_Voronez
0.05711257 Russian_Kursk
0.05743832 Russian_Orel
0.05764017 Russian_Belgorod
0.05840477 Russian_Smolensk
0.05929309 Russian_Ryazan
0.05964687 Russian_Kaluga
0.06028214 Belarusian
0.06147137 Russian_Tver
0.06268908 Ingrian
0.06277272 Cossack_Kuban
0.06290263 Bosnian
0.06292380 Estonian
0.06307713 Lithuanian_PA
0.06378322 Russian_Pskov

**michal3141** · 10-21-2021, 11:09 AM

But these are averages of course and we don't even know enough about the samples...
We need more regional studies for the Baltic Sea are to see the full landscape I guess.

**Peterski** · 10-21-2021, 11:16 AM

Yes closer to Poles than to Swiss Germans as I predicted.

What about unscaled distances?

**~~Komintasavalta~~** · 10-21-2021, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Östsvensk

Hmm, Swedes closer to Poles and Russians than to Germanic groups... something's not right here.

North Germanics are so woggy that they're even closer to Hungarians than to Poles, or at least that's the case on G25:

Distance to Swedish:
.014 Danish
.017 Icelandic
.019 Norwegian
.021 Dutch
.024 Orcadian
.025 Scottish
.025 Shetlandic
.027 English
.027 Irish
.028 Welsh
.029 German
.030 English_Cornwall
.030 German_East
.032 Czech
.035 French_Brittany
.036 Afrikaner
.041 Austrian
.042 Hungarian
.044 Slovakian
.045 Belgian
.045 Polish
.045 French_Seine-Maritime
.047 French_Pas-de-Calais
.048 French_Nord
.049 Slovenian
.050 French_Alsace
.050 Polish_Kashubian
.051 Croatian
.052 Sorb_Niederlausitz
.053 Ukrainian
.053 French_Paris
.054 Cossack_Ukrainian

Also in this PCA of samples from the Reich dataset, Norwegians are closer to Hungarians than to Poles (at least on the first two PCs, and also on the first 10 PCs regardless of whether the coordinates are scaled or not):

Norwegians are so woggy that in the first 10 dimensions of my PCA and in an f2 matrix that contains the same samples as my PCA, Norwegians are even closer to Romanians than to Lithuanians.

**~~Arūnas~~** · 10-21-2021, 11:18 AM

I know the Finns have had someone like Eliel Saarinen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliel_Saarinen

but overall the Finnish architecture or urbanistic style is not that western, same with for example Poland - western (German) parts are whereas Russian part of Partitions of Poland has different style

Centre of Lahti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahti

Dzierżoniów, Market Square (Rynek)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzier%C5%BConi%C3%B3w

**~~Komintasavalta~~** · 10-21-2021, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen

I am curious about the origin of the Finnish group.

Most of the Finnish samples on G25 are from 1000 Genomes, which is shown by the HG prefix, but a few samples are from the Estonian Biocentre, which is shown by the GS prefix. I don't know how Davidski determined which of the samples are Eastern Finnish, because as far as I know, the location of the samples from 1000 Genomes is not listed anywhere.

Code:

$ curl 'https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1HYrDwxEXv82DvDLoq736pS5ZTGJA4dn5'|cut -d, -f1|egrep Finnish\|Ingrian
Finnish_East:HG00171
Finnish_East:HG00187
Finnish_East:HG00271
Finnish_East:HG00272
Finnish_East:HG00278
Finnish_East:HG00285
Finnish_East:HG00323
Finnish_East:HG00325
Finnish_East:HG00358
Finnish_East:HG00368
Finnish:GS000016894
Finnish:GS000016895
Finnish:GS000018756
Finnish:HG00171
Finnish:HG00173
Finnish:HG00182
Finnish:HG00183
Finnish:HG00190
Finnish:HG00277
Finnish:HG00311
Finnish:HG00337
Finnish:HG00346
Finnish:HG00350
Finnish:HG00356
Finnish:HG00376
Ingrian:GS000016896
Ingrian:GS000016897
Ingrian:GS000017197

**Lemminkäinen** · 10-21-2021, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by michal3141

But these are averages of course and we don't even know enough about the samples...
We need more regional studies for the Baltic Sea are to see the full landscape I guess.

It is also about the PCA. If you include more admixed neighboring goups, let's say Siberian admixture, you get a very different PCA than without them. Example

Regardless of Finns, all Swedes seem to have Finnish admixture, because the Finns are pulled by half Saamis and Swedes by their common admixture with us.

**Blondie** · 10-21-2021, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Komintasavalta

North Germanics are so woggy that they're even closer to Hungarians than to Poles, or at least that's the case on G25:

Distance to Swedish:
.014 Danish
.017 Icelandic
.019 Norwegian
.021 Dutch
.024 Orcadian
.025 Scottish
.025 Shetlandic
.027 English
.027 Irish
.028 Welsh
.029 German
.030 English_Cornwall
.030 German_East
.032 Czech
.035 French_Brittany
.036 Afrikaner
.041 Austrian
.042 Hungarian
.044 Slovakian
.045 Belgian
.045 Polish
.045 French_Seine-Maritime
.047 French_Pas-de-Calais
.048 French_Nord
.049 Slovenian
.050 French_Alsace
.050 Polish_Kashubian
.051 Croatian
.052 Sorb_Niederlausitz
.053 Ukrainian
.053 French_Paris
.054 Cossack_Ukrainian

Also in this PCA of samples from the Reich dataset, Norwegians are closer to Hungarians than to Poles (at least on the first two PCs, and also on the first 10 PCs regardless of whether the coordinates are scaled or not):

Norwegians are so woggy that in the first 10 dimensions of my PCA and in an f2 matrix that contains the same samples as my PCA, Norwegians are even closer to Romanians than to Lithuanians.

Interesting. Hungarians have much more germanic admixture than poles in general, this is the reason that hungarians or czechs have pretty western shifted genetic, but i don't think that hungarians are closer to swedes than finns. It sounds very unbelievable, but who knows.

**Benyzero** · 10-21-2021, 11:47 AM

Komivavavavava

**~~Arūnas~~** · 10-21-2021, 11:56 AM

continues:
I don't care if Russians took Finnish style or the other way, but - wide streets, single (even if beautiful) buildings, in the "west" - rows of tenement houses and narrow streets
rainwater drainage system in Finland quite like in Russia (on the streets / walkingside), in the "west" underground etc.

Soderkulla