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That's true. However there is good reason to believe their Baltic input is real - just check map of Baltic hydronyms in Russia. Typically Baltic R1a Z280 subclades like Z92 are widespread among eastern Slavs.
Also lot of their N1c lineages belong to typically Baltic rather than Finnic clades.
Baltic cultures 600-200 BC
spread of Baltic hydronyms
These people didn't dissapear, they merged with early Slavic settlers but unlike in south Slavs for example it's harder to distinguish east slavs pre-Slavic blood because Balts and Slavs are closest related people and very similar genetically.
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Also Bulgarians. And what is interesting before 1941 many German colonies were there too. There was even one Swedish villagehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammalsvenskby
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Are these samples publicly available? It seems they over-sampled South-West parts of Ukraine (including Zakarpattia) once again.
How about making Ukrainian national average? In my opinion, for example in Global25 Western Ukrainians are over-represented:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6862270
Currently existing GEDmatch averages for Ukraine, also skew in favour of Western Ukrainians.
This is a collection of 28 Belarusians from Minsk & 28 Ukrainians from Kiev, academic samples, but they are not in Global25 yet:
Eurogenes K15:
Eurogenes K15:Code:Belarusian_Minsk_1,19.89,16.97,33.82,20.59,4.6,0.25,0,1.02,0.94,1.01,0,0,0.1,0.8,0 Belarusian_Minsk_2,21.05,21.19,35.44,16.66,0.9,2.48,0,0,1.03,0,0,0.71,0.41,0,0.12 Belarusian_Minsk_3,15.55,19.55,30.68,24.26,2.44,0.83,4.66,0.96,0.51,0,0.51,0,0.03,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_4,17.11,15.11,36.94,19.34,3.23,3.07,3.05,0.65,0,0.59,0.29,0,0.64,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_5,18.59,15.15,30.84,25.33,5.44,1.19,0,1.15,1.07,0,0.17,0.5,0.22,0.35,0 Belarusian_Minsk_6,18.77,15.72,36.06,20.85,3.26,1.19,1.29,0.42,2.06,0,0,0,0,0.23,0.15 Belarusian_Minsk_7,19.12,16.33,34.09,20.44,3.6,0.48,3.98,0,0.54,0,0,1.07,0.35,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_8,23.8,12.67,31.7,20.02,3.18,3.63,0,1.78,2.77,0,0,0.1,0.35,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_9,16.81,17.08,34.9,17.53,4.49,4.47,1.91,0,0.79,0,1.92,0,0,0,0.12 Belarusian_Minsk_11,18.33,17.68,28.81,23.03,4.52,4.59,0.72,0,1.24,0,0,1.08,0,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_12,17.49,20.08,31.41,23.97,1.64,4.71,0,0,0.03,0.1,0,0,0.25,0.33,0 Belarusian_Minsk_13,20.84,13.53,33.03,18.75,7.33,2.44,2.66,0,0.2,0,0.04,0.29,0,0.58,0.31 Belarusian_Minsk_14,17.17,18.48,29.73,23.18,6.52,2.59,1.8,0,0.53,0,0,0,0,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_15,16.15,16.71,34.7,23.78,5.6,0.39,0,0,2.57,0,0,0.09,0,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_16,21.73,16.14,29.35,20.79,3.93,6.25,0.27,0,0,0,0,0.68,0.68,0,0.17 Belarusian_Minsk_17,18.24,15.27,35.73,21.57,3.34,4.17,0,0,0.02,0,0,0.21,1.43,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_18,17.32,16.06,35.75,22.14,4.16,1.64,0.63,0,1.78,0,0,0.33,0,0.19,0 Belarusian_Minsk_19,13.73,15.09,31.99,25,6.26,5.19,1.22,0,0,0,0,0.12,0.36,1.03,0 Belarusian_Minsk_20,19.65,13.51,32.25,22.27,4.23,6.43,0,0.04,1.34,0,0,0.28,0,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_21,23.78,11.11,32.2,21.17,6.96,2.72,0,0,0,0,0,0.99,1.07,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_22,14.16,20.89,34.51,22.76,3.16,1.46,0,0,0.73,0.17,0,1.7,0,0,0.46 Belarusian_Minsk_23,19.14,16.65,32.98,19.01,2.44,4.16,2.57,0,0,0,1.52,0,0.68,0,0.85 Belarusian_Minsk_25,21.53,18.87,30.56,22.42,2.71,2.62,0,0,0,0,0,0.83,0.47,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_26,23.56,10.55,31.89,20.32,8.18,0.72,3.55,0,0,0.06,0.09,0.45,0,0,0.63 Belarusian_Minsk_27,19.09,11.91,29.15,24.64,8.4,3.2,0,1.71,0.65,0,0.96,0.29,0,0,0 Belarusian_Minsk_28,18.92,15.38,29.64,20.23,8.79,2.36,1.91,0,0,0,1.92,0,0.13,0,0.72 Belarusian_Minsk_Avg(n=26),18.90,16.06,32.62,21.54,4.59,2.82,1.16,0.30,0.72,0.07,0.29,0.37,0.28,0.14,0.14 Belarusian_Minsk_10_outlier,11.56,17.8,24.97,18.86,8.95,6.28,8.88,0.4,0.86,1.04,0.1,0,0,0,0.3 Belarusian_Minsk_24_outlier,11.45,19.41,20.89,17.27,7.03,12.22,5.73,1.49,1.79,0.27,1.47,0.27,0,0.71,0
See how they compare to existing K15 averages, as you can see Kiev Ukrainians appear rather eastern-shifted here:Code:Ukrainian_Kiev_1,20.5,12.08,30.33,17.74,7.66,4.18,6.19,0.7,0,0,0,0,0.41,0,0.22 Ukrainian_Kiev_2,16.04,17.2,27.56,18.33,7.01,4.04,4.08,4.51,0,0.93,0,0.31,0,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_3,21.59,9.87,29.83,22.88,6.63,7.1,0.19,0,0.34,0.43,0.64,0,0.5,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_4,19.29,17.35,30.54,20.87,1.11,7.08,0.21,0.11,0,0,1.79,1.04,0,0.61,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_5,15.8,17.65,28.02,21.53,7.06,3.76,2.49,2.37,0,0,0,0,0,0.48,0.86 Ukrainian_Kiev_6,18.49,18.35,31.42,18.1,4.52,5.4,0,0.11,2.06,0,0,0.77,0.19,0,0.59 Ukrainian_Kiev_7,17.1,14.93,28.21,23.51,5.8,2.54,2.85,0,1.15,0,1.88,1.16,0.87,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_8,21.72,11.86,31.08,18.77,5.75,5.5,0.72,2.61,0.4,0.4,1.19,0,0,0.01,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_9,16.09,18.5,34.59,18.16,3.18,5.55,2.82,0.14,0,0,0,0,0.98,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_10,21.95,13.11,31.69,17.74,5.95,5.81,0,0,0.95,0,0,0.35,1.69,0,0.76 Ukrainian_Kiev_11,21.73,16.65,25.36,17.02,6.1,3.59,4.49,0,0.69,0,2.71,0.86,0.36,0,0.45 Ukrainian_Kiev_12,18.45,19,26.47,17.14,6.48,5.27,2.49,1.97,0.71,0,1.14,0.18,0.67,0,0.03 Ukrainian_Kiev_13,18.63,10.74,31.92,20.29,7.7,3.99,3.65,1.54,0,0,0,1.37,0.16,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_15,13.97,18.39,32.91,22.3,4.9,4.48,0,0.72,0.33,0,0,1.3,0,0,0.69 Ukrainian_Kiev_16,15.52,19.83,28.56,18.59,5.89,3.49,5.89,0,0,1.52,0,0,0,0,0.72 Ukrainian_Kiev_18,16.66,17.43,32.97,20.86,5.19,2.17,3.32,0,0,0,0.39,0,0.38,0,0.64 Ukrainian_Kiev_21,18.99,13.85,30.98,17.99,6.11,4,4.38,1.7,1.04,0.55,0.41,0,0,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_22,19.38,15.85,29.28,20.33,5.74,4.11,3.98,0.8,0,0,0,0.36,0,0.18,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_24,13.44,17.5,31.09,20.87,3.32,7.28,4.36,0,1.33,0,0.81,0,0.01,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_25,20.63,13.36,31.24,21.24,4.77,4.03,1.11,1.27,1.31,0,0,0.98,0,0,0.05 Ukrainian_Kiev_26,18.44,13.97,29.45,21.91,7.34,6.07,1.18,1.19,0,0.45,0,0,0,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_27,22.93,15.67,27.95,18.78,6.58,5.81,0.9,0,0.39,0,0,0.07,0.52,0,0.4 Ukrainian_Kiev_28,14.63,16.93,31.66,18.35,8.06,4.1,2.35,1.57,0,0,0,1.36,0,0.32,0.69 Ukrainian_Kiev_Avg(n=23),18.35,15.66,30.14,19.71,5.78,4.75,2.51,0.93,0.47,0.19,0.48,0.44,0.29,0.07,0.27 Ukrainian_Kiev_14_outlier,21.88,15.05,23.92,15.29,12.15,3.78,3.59,1.27,1.44,0,0.53,0.04,1.06,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_17_outlier,25.06,15.19,27.81,16.62,8.44,2.18,0,0.84,1.74,0,0.76,0.35,1,0,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_23_outlier,19.59,14.06,25.81,16.66,7.66,7.56,6.65,0.18,1.02,0,0,0,0.22,0.58,0 Ukrainian_Kiev_19_mixed,14.87,6.79,22.89,28.49,5.18,6.34,0,0.64,0.16,0.51,11.87,1.17,0,0,1.08 Ukrainian_Kiev_20_mixed,20.05,11.48,22.43,18.12,3.49,16.6,3.35,0.4,1.82,0,1.13,0,0,0.48,0.63
From Kiev average I removed 2 mixed with Tatars/Kavkaz and 3 too western/southern shifted compared to the rest.
Last edited by Peterski; 08-24-2020 at 02:20 AM.
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Received: 20,928 Given: 18,995 |
Also here is for example a Western Ukrainian with GEDCOM pedigree with both parents from Volhynia, I trust this result more than academic samples from Volhynia (from Estonian scientists) which look like they are mixed with Volhynian Poles/Czechs/Germans:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6862276
Population
North_Sea 18.69 Pct
Atlantic 15.46 Pct
Baltic 32.29 Pct
Eastern_Euro 19.61 Pct
West_Med 5.95 Pct
West_Asian 4.70 Pct
East_Med 0.28 Pct
Red_Sea 0.27 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 1.46 Pct
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian 0.52 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
^^^
This Volhynian Ukrainian from GEDmatch is actually close to academic Polish samples from Lublin Voivodeship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lublin_Voivodeship
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 32.29
2 Eastern_Euro 19.61
3 North_Sea 18.69
4 Atlantic 15.46
5 West_Med 5.95
6 West_Asian 4.7
7 Siberian 1.46
8 Amerindian 0.76
9 Oceanian 0.52
10 East_Med 0.28
11 Red_Sea 0.27
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Russian_Smolensk 4.18
2 Belorussian 4.42
3 Estonian_Polish 4.55
4 Southwest_Russian 4.58
5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 4.83
6 Polish 5.92
7 Lithuanian 5.96
8 South_Polish 6.29
9 Ukrainian 6.34
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.82
11 Estonian 8.58
12 Kargopol_Russian 10.11
13 Erzya 11.44
14 Croatian 11.58
15 Moldavian 13.54
16 East_Finnish 13.67
17 Finnish 14.34
18 Hungarian 14.82
19 Southwest_Finnish 15.46
20 Austrian 16.51
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.9% Lithuanian + 28.1% Moldavian @ 2.99
2 68.7% Lithuanian + 31.3% Croatian @ 3.14
3 54.7% Lithuanian + 45.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.39
4 52% Lithuanian + 48% South_Polish @ 3.43
5 52.3% Lithuanian + 47.7% Ukrainian @ 3.46
6 68.1% Russian_Smolensk + 31.9% Lithuanian @ 3.52
7 81.9% Lithuanian + 18.1% Romanian @ 3.54
8 67.2% Estonian_Polish + 32.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.56
9 83.2% Lithuanian + 16.8% Bulgarian @ 3.61
10 89.3% Lithuanian + 10.7% Nogay @ 3.63
11 69.7% Belorussian + 30.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.64
12 80.9% Lithuanian + 19.1% Serbian @ 3.67
13 60.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 39.8% Lithuanian @ 3.72
14 68.4% Belorussian + 31.6% Ukrainian @ 3.73
15 91.8% Lithuanian + 8.2% Sardinian @ 3.73
16 87.7% Lithuanian + 12.3% North_Italian @ 3.74
17 66.7% Estonian_Polish + 33.3% Ukrainian @ 3.78
18 88.4% Lithuanian + 11.6% Tuscan @ 3.8
19 91.1% Lithuanian + 8.9% Balkar @ 3.8
20 94.8% Belorussian + 5.2% Nogay @ 3.84
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You asked Davidski? I think at least those Ukrs are added http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm.
Probably without few outliers
Code:Ukrainian:Ukrainian1,0.125205,0.13405,0.062979,0.052649,0.040623,0.015618,0.009165,0.007846,-0.003477,-0.016401,0.000325,-0.007943,0.016055,0.017891,-0.01045,0.003713,0.011865,0.00152,0.000377,-0.003001,-0.004991,-0.006183,0.004807,0.000843,-0.000599 Ukrainian:Ukrainian10,0.126344,0.118817,0.063733,0.067184,0.036007,0.017012,0.00611,0.01223,-0.010226,-0.020046,-0.000812,-0.005995,0.012339,0.019818,-0.008822,-0.003978,0.005346,-0.0019,-0.000377,0.005878,-0.009483,0.000618,0.006532,0.000241,0.009221 Ukrainian:Ukrainian11,0.12862,0.122879,0.061471,0.052649,0.037545,0.018128,0.00752,0.014076,0.003272,-0.01713,0.001299,-0.004946,0.010555,0.026148,-0.002579,-0.003315,-0.006519,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.002876,-0.006239,-0.004699,0.001602,-0.00241,-0.001437 Ukrainian:Ukrainian12,0.130897,0.126941,0.071653,0.056848,0.032314,0.013666,0.008695,0.006,0.001636,-0.020228,-0.001786,-0.01109,0.015461,0.0139,-0.019679,0.012066,0.025034,-0.004434,-0.000503,0.004877,-0.004742,-0.001237,0.008011,-0.007953,0.001197 Ukrainian:Ukrainian13,0.125205,0.127957,0.071653,0.062662,0.040623,0.027889,0.00658,0.004615,-0.007567,-0.024784,0.000325,-0.006294,0.016353,0.033442,-0.012079,-0.015115,-0.013299,-0.004434,0.006913,-0.001251,-0.009109,-0.00272,0.005423,-0.011447,-0.001916 Ukrainian:Ukrainian14,0.125205,0.121864,0.06675,0.044897,0.042469,0.024542,0.00376,0.012692,-0.003068,-0.021139,-0.00682,-0.005845,0.012636,0.024084,-0.012758,-0.008353,-0.009127,0.000253,0.001383,-0.002626,-0.013351,-0.00371,0.00493,-0.005784,-0.002874 Ukrainian:Ukrainian15,0.132035,0.118817,0.070144,0.064277,0.044931,0.018407,0.017626,0.014538,0.006136,-0.01713,0.000162,-0.002398,0.013974,0.020781,-0.010858,0.002519,0.017732,0.00076,0.005782,0.006753,-0.010357,0.000989,0.008504,0.006507,-0.002395 Ukrainian:Ukrainian16,0.127482,0.12491,0.076933,0.063631,0.040007,0.019801,0.007285,0.016384,-0.000205,-0.016948,0.000812,-0.015436,0.018731,0.026974,-0.014522,-0.009281,-0.0103,0.002914,0.010433,-0.007128,-0.006988,0.004204,0.006039,-0.008676,0.005868 Ukrainian:Ukrainian17,0.135449,0.120848,0.061848,0.051357,0.040315,0.022311,0.0094,0.016845,0.001023,-0.020957,-0.003248,-0.009591,0.013974,0.022295,-0.010722,0.006629,0.0103,-0.00038,0.007039,-5e-04,-0.000624,-0.007172,0.00949,-0.011688,-0.004311 Ukrainian:Ukrainian18,0.137726,0.127957,0.072407,0.055556,0.035083,0.019243,0.011986,0.008769,-0.001841,-0.023326,-0.001461,-0.007643,0.014717,0.016652,-0.012486,0.001591,0.012778,-0.002027,0.004148,-0.005253,-0.006364,-0.001731,0.008381,-0.011327,-0.006945 Ukrainian:Ukrainian19,0.134311,0.120848,0.061848,0.055233,0.028313,0.023427,0.010575,0.016384,-0.005727,-0.019864,-0.006658,-0.007493,0.022448,0.030139,-0.004343,-0.008618,-0.010431,-0.000253,0.008422,0.00025,-0.008735,-0.01051,0.002342,-0.00253,-0.002395 Ukrainian:Ukrainian2,0.137726,0.12491,0.062602,0.042959,0.041854,0.021475,0.00564,0.012923,0.001227,-0.022597,0.004384,-0.008692,0.009663,0.024497,-0.011129,-0.007823,-0.007823,0.004561,0.011187,-0.004627,-0.008735,-0.013107,0.004683,-0.003374,-0.000838 Ukrainian:Ukrainian20,0.129758,0.120848,0.069013,0.063631,0.033545,0.03012,0.00752,0.007384,-0.007976,-0.020593,0.005359,-0.012589,0.021704,0.023396,-0.006786,0.012596,0.015776,0.000887,0.003142,0.008254,-0.009234,-0.00643,0.006409,-0.00253,0.001317 Ukrainian:Ukrainian21,0.137726,0.127957,0.064111,0.052326,0.0437,0.023985,0.01034,0.01523,-0.003681,-0.027153,-0.002436,-0.006594,0.012042,0.025047,-0.016015,-0.004641,-0.002738,0.003421,0.003268,-0.003377,-0.010357,-0.006059,0.001849,-0.005663,-0.00455 Ukrainian:Ukrainian22,0.130897,0.128972,0.06675,0.060401,0.045239,0.023427,0.008225,0.006461,-0.00634,-0.018406,-0.00065,-0.005095,0.007582,0.015827,-0.011536,0.011535,0.024643,0.003927,0.000377,0.001751,-0.000374,-0.002226,0.004314,0.000964,-0.002395 Ukrainian:Ukrainian23,0.125205,0.125926,0.06675,0.053941,0.040623,0.025379,0.00329,0.005307,0.000614,-0.021686,-0.004709,-0.007044,0.013825,0.024634,-0.015744,-0.008486,-0.00352,0.002914,0.007542,0.003001,-0.006613,-0.01286,0.01442,-0.005784,-0.004431 Ukrainian:Ukrainian3,0.136588,0.116786,0.071276,0.059755,0.039084,0.023148,0.017156,0.010846,-0.008999,-0.030069,-0.001786,-0.009292,0.016055,0.013625,-0.015336,0.007955,0.024251,0.000507,0.000377,0.005503,0.001747,-0.006183,0.002465,-0.010363,-0.000838 Ukrainian:Ukrainian4,0.132035,0.11577,0.076555,0.064923,0.024928,0.02259,0.015511,0.008769,-0.001227,-0.03098,0.006171,-0.010641,0.017393,0.022708,-0.013979,-0.009016,-0.010822,0.000253,0.001508,0.003502,-0.000125,-0.005812,0.008134,-0.007953,0.003592 Ukrainian:Ukrainian5,0.121791,0.141159,0.067505,0.049419,0.039392,0.017291,0.016921,0.010153,-0.002045,-0.019864,-0.003085,-0.001798,0.017245,0.026561,-0.016694,-0.01127,-0.008866,-0.002154,0.00176,-0.005753,-0.014474,-0.003339,-0.003697,-0.002289,0.007664 Ukrainian:Ukrainian6,0.126344,0.121864,0.064111,0.0646,0.036622,0.024542,0.00705,0.01223,-0.000205,-0.018953,-0.000487,-0.005845,0.013825,0.031653,-0.005836,-0.016441,-0.014603,0.00114,0.007039,0.001376,-0.010731,-0.005935,0.011339,-0.001566,0.006347 Ukrainian:Ukrainian7,0.125205,0.11577,0.07731,0.055556,0.035083,0.014781,0.00094,0.003461,-0.020861,-0.026606,0.000325,-0.007943,0.015907,0.031653,-0.009229,-0.014187,-0.010561,-0.002787,-0.006034,0.000125,0.004367,-0.010263,0.010353,-0.001205,0.003233 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Last edited by Lucas; 08-25-2020 at 07:28 PM.
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Southern Ukraine isn't homogenous, south-west differs from the south and the south is very diverse in itself. But there was both Vlach migration, native paleo-Balkanic, and Scythian (which was somewhat a mixture of paleo-Balkanic, Caucaus, North-Eastern, and East Eurasian genetic contribution).
No, they're not. Southern Ukraine is extremely diverse, but many of the southern areas were also founded by Cossacks or were already Cossacks who became state peasants. After the destruction of the Zaporizhian Sich many Cossacks eventually founded cities in the south. These people had a large southern genetic input, and also Turkic + Caucasus. Other regions were founded by migrants from Northern/Central Ukraine and Russia, not just ethnic Russians but people like Mordovins.
Again many southern regions were repopulated by Zaporizhian Cossacks who became Danuban Cossacks. The Zaporizhian Cossacks occupied the Steppes already and had a Turkic element in them. They were very diverse themselves. This is a myth repeated, mostly by Russians, and parroted by others on here. So yes many are native there because they originated as Steppe people (Iranic, Turkic etc.) who absorbed Ruthenian peasants..
Speaking a language has nothing to do with ethnicity, many areas of the south with +90% ethnic Ukrainians still often speak Russian. But Russian migration did northenize the population in general.
Again, none of these people would be identical to anyone. Because both the East of Ukraine and Southern Russia have mixed origins. From Cossacks, from non-Cossack Ukrainian and Russian migrants and so on. Even phenotypically all you have to do is look at say Kuban Cossacks and compare them to southern Russians with Central Russian origin and see that they are two completely different groups of people.
They had very little influence on the population, the south's southern influence is from Scythian/Iranic and some Balkan input via Cossacks.
The only areas of Lviv that had Vlach settlement were around the Boyko homeland, so that isn't correct. Most of the Vlach settlement was further south/east than that in Galicia.
Pretty much.
Ukrainian settlers to southern Russia came from southern/eastern Ukraine, Zaporizhian Sich but also waves of migrants from Northern Ukraine latter on.
Germans had no influence on us, they were mostly in their segregated villages or landowners using Ukrainian peasant labour.
I agree the results are often skewed and completely neglect the south and east. But also, how do you know those people you removed were not entirely ethnic Ukrainian? Both Turkic and Caucasus admixture is present in Ukrainians, this is the issue with Ukrainians because of their position in the steppes and population migration from the steppes to the right bank and back, and also various resettlements and history of foreign settlers, Ukrainian genome is extremely diverse and people from the same region can vary quite different, even in admixture.
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