Croatian man killed in Ireland "for speaking Croatian"

[oszkar07]

We are just talking about the topic right?

just that you quoted me in a way that implied i said something about the swedish system or any specific region , your comments didnt seem connected specific to my comments so wondered why you replied to my post.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Let's be honest... it is odd that the difference between having sex and it being a crime and having sex and it not being a crime is if you give the person money.

With regards to my last post, I don't know if I saw it in a movie/show or if it's real but there would be a bar with prostitutes and to get around the illegality of prostitution the client would buy an expensive bottle. The guy would then have sex with the woman but it wouldn't be illegal because he didn't pay to have sex but instead paid for the bottle of alcohol. Since there was no exchange of money for sex it wasn't illegal.

[Grace O'Malley]

Let's be honest... it is odd that the difference between having sex and it being a crime and having sex and it not being a crime is if you give the person money.

With regards to my last post, I don't know if I saw it in a movie/show or if it's real but there would be a bar with prostitutes and to get around the illegality of prostitution the client would buy an expensive bottle. The guy would then have sex with the woman but it wouldn't be illegal because he didn't pay to have sex but instead paid for the bottle of alcohol. Since there was no exchange of money for sex it wasn't illegal.

I think it is the sex industry and all the ills that go with that such as sex trafficking, forcing women and children into prostitution and even the whole idea of someone having to sell their body to countless men. The whole thing is fairly disgusting. Multiple men using the same woman and for people that think the woman is going to enjoy those encounters. I mean just pointing out how uncomfortable in must be have that amount of sex. I don't know how anyone can pretend the woman enjoys it?

[oszkar07]

Maybe the flaw is calling every "woman" that disagrees with your view "a feminist".

It is more so that i have come across some women that labelled themselves feminists that were very vocal about and against what might be called
objectification of women in the context as I recall simple things such as women wearing lingerie in general advertising to women doing centrefold playboy .
Again those women (not me) identified their complaints and views with feminism.

I have seen another bunch of women that call themselves feminists who expressed there belief that women doing playboy centrefolds
is to the empowerment of their right to express their own sexuality.

So I am witness to people who have identified themselves as feminists in accordance with these views to be more accurate.

[Grace O'Malley]

It is more so that i have come across some women that labelled themselves feminists that were very vocal about and against what might be called
objectification of women in the context as I recall simple things such as women wearing lingerie in general advertising to women doing centrefold playboy .
Again those women (not me) identified their complaints and views with feminism.

I have seen another bunch of women that call themselves feminists who expressed there belief that women doing playboy centrefolds
is to the empowerment of their right to express their own sexuality.

So I am witness to people who have identified themselves as feminists in accordance with these views to be more accurate.

Some of the feminist stuff I feel hasn't been helpful to women at all and they have been wrong about a lot of things. Anyway I am an individual. I don't know why people want to label someone constantly. You could be against prostitution for religious reasons for example or for human rights reasons. There are many reasons why people might have opinions on many different topics. The fact that someone is a woman does not automatically mean they are feminists. There are of course things I agree about with feminists but also many things I don't agree on. Anyway what makes someone a feminist? Just being a woman?

[oszkar07]

I think it is the sex industry and all the ills that go with that such as sex trafficking, forcing women and children into prostitution and even the whole idea of someone having to sell their body to countless men. The whole thing is fairly disgusting. Multiple men using the same woman and for people that think the woman is going to enjoy those encounters. I mean just pointing out how uncomfortable in must be have that amount of sex. I don't know how anyone can pretend the woman enjoys it?

what you keep missing Grace is

whole idea of someone having to sell their body to countless men

whole idea of someone choosing to sell their body to countless men

having to / choosing to

You really struggle with the concept that there are actually women who choose to.
I could post plethora of interviews with escorts that will tell you over and over again that it is a job they are choosing to do, as much as you seem to not wish to believe that. "they know not what they do", "their judgement must be impaired", why are you in such denial about the women who choose to be hookers Grace ?

[Grace O'Malley]

what you keep missing Grace is
whole idea of someone having to sell their body to countless men

whole idea of someone choosing to sell their body to countless men

You really struggle with the concept that there are actually women who choose to.
I could post plethora of interviews with escorts that will tell you over and ovr again that it is a job they are choosing to do, as much as you seem to not wish to believe that. "they know not what they do", "their judgement must be impaired", why are you in such denial about the women who choose to be hookers Grace ?

I'm not missing anything. I think you are missing my whole point. I have said that women do sell their bodies but I'm saying it is still abuse. The idea that a body can be sold and that this type of stuff is accepted is what I don't understand.

You can read my posts again I'm not in denial about anything. You are just missing my point on the topic. I've said it numerous times. It is something that is against human dignity and morally wrong. Whether someone willing does it is not really the point. People willingly sell their kidneys if they are paid. It should be illegal to pay for sex and shouldn't be condoned. It doesn't matter if people will do this underground. Society should not be supporting it. I think what people struggle with is how to minimise the dangers. I personally don't want woman being in danger even if they chose something like prostitution because I do believe anyone that goes into prostitution has serious mental health issues. That does not mean they don't do it willingly.

The big problem with prostitution is that it will always involve human trafficking and the vast majority of women are not exactly willing participants in it.

And if anyone is saying just because someone willingly does something this does not mean a civilised society should condone or support it. Many people can't make rational decisions. If a man pays to have sex with a prostitute he doesn't know what her situation is and he doesn't care either.

Anyway have you personally talked to prostitutes? Where are you getting your information from? Is it online videos or from actually real life discussion with prostitutes?

[oszkar07]

I'm not missing anything. I think you are missing my whole point. I have said that women do sell their bodies but I'm saying it is still abuse. The idea that a body can be sold and that this type of stuff is accepted is what I don't understand.

so what then Grace is the definition of Abuse ?
What constitutes the concept of a person willingly selling their body with the definition of abuse ?

well apparently it is accepted by the person who is selling it, so it seems perhaps if you strongly oppose that then logically
you are opposing their choice of what they do with their body.

if a man is being paid to model for an art class that are practicing drawing nudes , is he in a sense selling the service of providing his naked body to be
observed by a room full of strangers.

is he selling his body is he being abused ?
Is he being abused ?
if he consented and agreed to people touching his body after they paid him money to do that
would he be being abused ?

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

I think it is the sex industry and all the ills that go with that such as sex trafficking, forcing women and children into prostitution and even the whole idea of someone having to sell their body to countless men. The whole thing is fairly disgusting. Multiple men using the same woman and for people that think the woman is going to enjoy those encounters. I mean just pointing out how uncomfortable in must be have that amount of sex. I don't know how anyone can pretend the woman enjoys it?

A job is a job. I'm sure hammering shingles on a roof in the middle of a hot and humid summer isn't all that great either.

What is weird during this long conversation is some posters are against prostitution but... also not against prostitution. They have no issue with escorts/private prostitution.

So prostitution bad... but not if you call them and book a time and place, then it's okay... Why assume those women aren't sex trafficked? All you have to do as a pimp is put the woman's ad on the internet.

As I said before, police don't give a fuck about prostitutes. Everyone knows what part of the city to go to pick up hookers. Everyone knows prostitutes roam truck stops. It's not a secret. So what does this tell us? Society believes there is a need for it. Yes, they occasionally crack down on prostitutes but it's only for show. They crack down for a short period and then it's back to the usual.

Of course, sex trafficking is terrible. It's terrible that teenage girls (and boys) run away from home because of physical and sexual abuse and become drug addicted prostitutes. I would look down on someone who visited a prostitute. But also let's be honest: society allows it.

I remember watching a documentary about the Yorkshire Ripper. The cops were staking out the red light district. They kept a record of every license plate. They were shocked by how many men a day drove through there.

[Grace O'Malley]

so what then Grace is the definition of Abuse ?
What constitutes the concept of a person willingly selling their body with the definition of abuse ?

well apparently it is accepted by the person who is selling it, so it seems perhaps if you strongly oppose that then logically
you are opposing their choice of what they do with their body.

if a man is being paid to model for an art class that are practicing drawing nudes , is he in a sense selling the service of providing his naked body to be
observed by a room full of strangers.

is he selling his body is he being abused ?
Is he being abused ?
if he consented and agreed to people touching his body after they paid him money to do that
would he be being abused ?

I don't think modelling nude is the same as being penetrated sexually. Also that is not high risk as far as safety etc. So no they aren't comparable in my view.

Anyway here is a recent report on the mental health of sex workers. No point ignoring that the majority of sex workers are foreigners from much poorer backgrounds and countries.

Sex work has historically been surrounded by controversy and debate. The European Parliament (2014)1 estimated that around 40–42 million people worldwide are involved in sex work, with the majority being victims of human trafficking. Sex work is highly feminized, with over 90% of sex workers (SWs) being women.1, 2 It is also precarious,3 lacking in legal protections and characterized by health risks, violence, and exploitative conditions.4 It is additionally associated with financial stress.5 According to the United Nations,6 a substantial proportion of SWs come from low-income countries, such as those in Latin America, sub-Saharan Africa, and Eastern Europe, with their primary destinations being Western Europe and North America. The sex industry is estimated to generate benefits of between $7 and $12 billion annually, making it the second most profitable illegal business in the world after gun and drug trafficking.7 However, given the secretive nature of sex work, the numbers could be underestimated.

Also mental health issues are prevalent with sex workers.

Results
Mental health problems were prevalent among sex workers. Depression was the most common mental health problem; however, other psychological problems were also high, including anxiety, substance abuse, and suicidal ideation. Sex workers are exposed to numerous work-related risks, including violence and high-risk sexual behaviors. Despite the high prevalence of mental health problems, SWs often encounter significant barriers to accessing healthcare services.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...111/acps.13559

The whole sex industry is problematic and I do not understand why someone would support it. I can guess why though.