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You are conflating indentured servants with chattel slavery. No the Irish and Scots were not slaves. Also most indentured servants English.Originally Posted by Indarra
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Instead of Simon Legree, Movie Mort could go by the somewhat more culturally appropriate name of Roma Legree.
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"Induntered servants" is an euphemism. They were slaves in practice. What an obsession with playing with Semantics.
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How is indentured servitude in any way the same as chattel slavery?
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I typed slaves, the new element "chattel" has been added by you.
The fact that they were essentially slaves is a historical fact, it be liked more or less.
The History is what it was, and not fairy tails. I'm so sorry.
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There is a very big difference between indentured servants and chattel slaves. Indentured servants entered into a contract for approximately 4 to 7 years. They had some legal rights and after their contract was finished they were given land and were free.
Chattel slavery was racially based and for perpetuity. They had no legal rights and were possessions. Their children were also slaves.Servants typically worked four to seven years in exchange for passage, room, board, lodging and freedom dues. While the life of an indentured servant was harsh and restrictive, it wasn't slavery. There were laws that protected some of their rights. But their life was not an easy one, and the punishments meted out to people who wronged were harsher than those for non-servants. An indentured servant's contract could be extended as punishment for breaking a law, such as running away, or in the case of female servants, becoming pregnant.
For those that survived the work and received their freedom package, many historians argue that they were better off than those new immigrants who came freely to the country. Their contract may have included at least 25 acres of land, a year's worth of corn, arms, a cow and new clothes. Some servants did rise to become part of the colonial elite, but for the majority of indentured servants that survived the treacherous journey by sea and the harsh conditions of life in the New World, satisfaction was a modest life as a freeman in a burgeoning colonial economy.
Obviously chattel slavery was very different from indentured servitude. Do you not understand the difference or are you trying to make out African Americans were not subject to chattel slavery? How can you conflate indentured servitude with chattel slavery when one was a contract that they got land and freedom from and the other where they were property and had no rights nor prospects of freedom. No they very obviously weren't the same.
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There is a very big difference between indentured servants and chattel slaves. Indentured servants entered into a contract for approximately 4 to 7 years. They had some legal rights and after their contract was finished they were given land and were free.
Chattel slavery was racially based and for perpetuity. They had no legal rights and were possessions. Their children were also slaves.
Obviously chattel slavery was very different from indentured servitude. Do you not understand the difference or are you trying to make out African Americans were not subject to chattel slavery? How can you conflate indentured servitude with chattel slavery when one was a contract that they got land and freedom from and the other where they were property and had no rights nor prospects of freedom. No they very obviously weren't the same.
First Slaves in the Eastern Shores of North America were White. You like it more or less. Historical Narrative =/= History.
You seem to feel more comfortable with the narrative. Or maybe you haven't had access to History.
Albeit painful, do a serious research. Start with Cromwell.
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This has been thoroughly researched and debunked. This has been discussed numerous times on here alone. Possibly you don't have access to accurate history.
You might mean well but don't try to lecture me on my own history.
It is worth reading this article from the New York Times.
It has shown up on Irish trivia Facebook pages, in Scientific American magazine, and on white nationalist message boards: the little-known story of the Irish slaves who built America, who are sometimes said to have outnumbered and been treated worse than slaves from Africa.
But it’s not true.
Historians say the idea of Irish slaves is based on a misreading of history and that the distortion is often politically motivated. Far-right memes have taken off online and are used as racist barbs against African-Americans. “The Irish were slaves, too,” the memes often say. “We got over it, so why can’t you?”
A small group of Irish and American scholars has spent years pushing back on the false history. In 2016, 82 Irish scholars and writers signed an open letter denouncing the Irish slave myth and asking publications to stop mentioning it. Some complied, removing or revising articles that referenced the false claims, but the letter’s impact was limited.
Fact vs. Fiction
The Irish slave narrative is based on the misinterpretation of the history of indentured servitude, which is how many poor Europeans migrated to North America and the Caribbean in the early colonial period, historians said.
Without a doubt, life was bad for indentured servants. They were often treated brutally. Not all of them entered servitude willingly. Some were political prisoners. Some were children.
“I’m not saying it was pleasant or anything — it was the opposite — but it was a completely different category from slavery,” said Liam Hogan, a research librarian in Ireland who has spearheaded the debunking effort. “It was a transitory state.”“An indenture implies two people have entered into a contract with each other but slavery is not a contract,” said Leslie Harris, a professor of African-American history at Northwestern University. “It is often about being a prisoner of war or being bought or sold bodily as part of a trade. That is a critical distinction.”‘The Irish Were Slaves, Too.’
The memes sometimes pop up in apolitical settings, like history trivia websites, but their recent spread has mirrored escalating racial and political tension in the United States, Mr. Hogan said. Central to the memes is the notion that historians and the media are covering up the truth. He said he has received death threats from Americans for his work.
“These memes are the No. 1 derailment people use when they talk about the slave trade,” he said. “Look in any race-related or slavery-related news story from the last two years and someone will mention it in the comments.”
The memes often have common elements: the false claim that Irish people were enslaved in America or the Caribbean after the 1649 British invasion of Ireland led by Oliver Cromwell; the false claim that Irish slaves were cheaper and treated worse than African slaves; the false claim that Irish women were forcibly “bred” with black men.
This version of the meme uses a 1911 photograph of child laborers in a Pennsylvania mine to illustrate its false claims about Irish slavery.
Some of them are easy to disprove. Many of the memes use photographs, including of Jewish Holocaust victims or 20th century child laborers, to illustrate events they claim happened in the 17th century, long before the invention of photography. Many reference a nonexistent 1625 proclamation by King James II, who was not born until 1633.
They often hijack specific atrocities committed against black slaves and substitute Irish people for the actual victims. A favorite event to use is the 1781 Zong massacre, in which over 130 African slaves were thrown to their deaths off a slave ship.
InfoWars, the far-right conspiracy site favored by President Trump, is one site that has falsely claimed Irish people were the victims of the Zong massacre, whose death toll it inflated by adding a zero to the end.
“It almost becomes a race to the bottom of who suffered more,” Mr. Reilly said, adding that the memes are “an effort to claim a certain ancestry of suffering in order to claim a certain political position.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/17/u...aves-myth.html
Anyway at the end of the article it states
I hate how people misuse the Irish and their history. If you want to claim white slaves use your own people and stop lying about the history of the Irish.“This continued misuse of Irish history devalues the real history,” Mr. Hogan said. “There are libraries filled with all the bad things that actually did happen. We don’t need memes and these dodgy articles full of lies.”
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The NYT? Is this your "historical" source? Really?
Well, ask Declan Downey*, an Irish Historian, for instance. Are you going to hate him too?
Maybe he's a better source than a NYT's article.
*https://people.ucd.ie/declan.downey
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No that's not my historical source. I've looked into the Irish slave myth years ago when I first read about it on here. I was very surprised as I've never heard about it and it isn't in any Irish history books so I asked an American Professor of history who worked at UCD and he said there is no history of Irish slaves either in the Caribbean or the US.
This stuff only started appearing in the 2000s and it's linked to racist websites that want to devalue the slavery that African Americans experienced.
Here's an open letter signed by multiple historians and writers condemning the Irish slave myth. Not sure why you want to believe in the Irish slave myth?
https://limerick1914.medium.com/open...s-3f6cf23b8d7fTo whom it may concern,
As you are aware, the Irish Central, Irish Examiner (since removed) and Scientific American (since revised) websites currently host articles about the allegedly “forgotten white Irish slaves.”
Irish Central, “Irish are ‘the forgotten white slaves’ claims expert”, 27 March 2015
Irish Central, “Irish roots in the Caribbean run deep”, 20 November 2015
Irish Examiner, “100,000 Irish children sold for slavery during 1650s”, 29 January 2013 (update: article has been removed without explanation)
Scientific American, “It’s True: We’re Probably All a Little Irish — Especially in the Caribbean”, 17 March 2015 (update: article has been revised with explanation)
The Irish Central and Irish Examiner articles quoted extensively from an op-ed article published on the “Global Research” website based in Canada. This website supports the 9/11 Truther movement and its “Irish slaves” article, apparently authored by John Martin for opednews.com, is an exercise in racist ahistorical propaganda. The Scientific American blog used an older and equally ahistorical article from a Kavanagh family genealogy site. This blog post entitled “Irish slaves in Caribbean” was evidently an important source for the “Global Research” article.
It is imperative that newspapers and scientific journals aim for truth and accuracy in everything they publish. It is thus our duty, as historians, scholars and interested parties, to inform your shareholders and your customers that you have failed to carry out any semblance of fact-checking on this particular article. More damaging still is that your promotion of it, for a number of years, has added a veneer of credibility to what is a well known white nationalist conspiracy theory more commonly found on Neo-Nazi and Neo-Confederate forums.
Journalism and scholarly historical research differ in various ways but they share one thing in common. If they are not based on reliable sources, they are worthless. Readers who may not be privy to the source of the information will likely take it at face value. Sometimes, the result is merely misinformation, but more dangerously, it can be used disingenuously to propagate a political myth. Scholarly articles undergo a process of peer review to make sure that they are evidence based and accurate. We do not expect newspapers to exercise the same level of rigour but a degree of common sense is called for since lifting material from such websites, which have no sources and are written by an unknown author, is poor journalistic practice.
Furthermore we are deeply disturbed to find that the Irish Central article (shared on social media over 150,000 times) asserts in its headline that this “Irish slaves” disinformation comes from an “expert” source. What underlines this baseless claim is the fact that every single line of the quoted article is a distortion, or a fabrication or an egregious exaggeration. We will not go through the inaccuracy of each line here, that is your responsibility, but we will ask you two questions. Do you, the editors of Irish Central and the Irish Examiner (update: now withdrawn) stand over the claim that an “Irish Slave Trade” was abolished in 1839? Or that “Irish slaves”, not enslaved Africans, were the victims of the Zong Massacre?
The intent of the article is thus patently clear; to insidiously equate indentured servitude or penal servitude with racialised perpetual hereditary chattel slavery. This is an obscene rhetorical move which decontextualises and dehistoricises the exploitation of both groups. There have been many different forms of slavery, across space and time. That is not the issue here. We are addressing the mainstream endorsement of a growing white nationalist campaign built on the reductionist fallacy of “slavery is slavery” which is inevitably used to justify racism in the present. For example, the spurious “we went through the same thing, but we don’t complain” sentiment which is now frequently deployed to silence debate and to mock demands for justice and truth-telling.
This has little to do with remembering the brutality of indentured servitude and all to do with the minimisation of the scale, duration and legacy of the transatlantic and intercolonial slave trade. The racist contemporary application of such bad history can be observed spreading like a virus across social media on an hourly basis.
Thus your mainstream endorsement of this distorted version of history has consequences. We therefore call on you to revise these articles, to correct the errors and to remove the false claims.
Signed
Susan Dwyer Amussen, Professor of History, University of California, Merced
Ana Lucia Araujo, Professor of History, Howard University
Catherine Barry, Historian and Philosopher, Kildare
Stephanie Boland, PhD candidate and editor, London
Rodney Breen, Archivist, Dublin
Dr. Margaret Brehony, President of Society for Irish Latin American Studies (SILAS)
Dr Conrad Brunstrom, Maynooth University
Emma Burns, Doctoral Researcher, CDLP, NUI Galway
Dean Buckley, Poet, Tipperary
Susan Campbell, retired prof. of Caribbean History, Vancouver, Canada
Dr Brian Carey, Researcher, University of Limerick
Jasmine Chorley, MGA Candidate, University of Toronto
Alexis Coe, Author, New York
Zoe Coleman, BA Hist (UCD), MLitt Art Hist (Glas), Dublin
Aidan Connolly, Engineer, Cork
Patrick Corbett BA, Galway
Laurence Cox, Lecturer, Maynooth University
Gerard Cunningham, Freelance journalist, Kildare
Patrick Denny, Adjunct Prof. of Electronic Engineering, NUI Galway
Dr Seán Patrick Donlan, University of the South Pacific
Dr Timothy R. Dougherty, Assistant Professor of English, West Chester University of PA
Paul Duane, Producer/Director, Screenworks, Dublin
Dr Katherine Ebury, Lecturer in Modern Literature, University of Sheffield.
Professor Bryan Fanning, University College Dublin
Ciarán Ferrie MRIAI, Rathmines, Dublin
Luke Field, PhD candidate and Lecturer, School of Politics and International Relations, University College Dublin
Dr Graham Finlay, School of Politics and International Relations, University College Dublin
Stephanie Fleming B.Sc, Dublin
Tom Gallagher, History Postgraduate, University College Cork
Ultan Gannon, International Politics and Philosophy, UCD
David T. Gleeson, Professor of American History, Northumbria University.
Peter Gray, Professor of Modern Irish History, Queen’s University Belfast
Michael Guasco, Associate Professor of History, Davidson College, North Carolina
Johanna Haban, MA student in Gaelic Literature, University College Cork
Dr Brendan Halpin, Senior Lecturer in Sociology, University of Limerick
Dr Brian Hanley, Historian, Dublin
Felicity Hayes-McCoy, Writer, Dingle, Co. Kerry
Domhnall Hegarty, MA Irish History, Saint Louis University
Liam Hogan, Independent Scholar and Librarian, Limerick
Matt Horton, Graduate student, UC Berkeley
Housemaid and The Fear (Helsinki, London, Dublin)
Professor Liam Irwin, Head of History (Rtd), Mary Immaculate College, Limerick
Evan Jones, Goldsmiths, University of London
Karst de Jong, PhD candidate, Queen’s University Belfast
Liz Loveland, Independent Researcher, Boston, Massachusetts
Dr Neil Kennedy, Associate Professor of Atlantic History, Memorial University, Newfoundland
Dr Sharon L Krossa, Scottish Medieval Historian, California
Naomi McArdle, Adare, Co. Limerick
Dr Laura McAtackney, Associate Professor in Sustainable Heritage Management (Archaeology), Århus University, Denmark
Kate McCabe, Director of Éist, Brooklyn, New York
Sarah McCrann, London
Dr Ken McDonagh, School of Law and Government, Dublin City University
Simon McGarr, Solicitor, Dublin
Maria McGarrity, Ph.D, Professor of English, Long Island University
Thérèse McIntyre, Independent Oral Historian, NUI Galway
Patricia McIsaac, Teacher, Boston Massachusetts
Conor McLoughlin, BA Sci (TCD)BA English Phil (UCD), Dublin
Carly McNamara, MSc Medieval History, University of Edinburgh
Dr Damian Mac Con Uladh, Historian and journalist, Corinth, Greece
Erin MacLeod, PhD, Vanier College, Montréal, QC, Canada
Adrian Martyn, Independent Scholar, Galway
Dr Lucy Michael, Lecturer in Sociology, University of Ulster
Dr Joss Moorkens, Researcher, Dublin City University
John Moynes, Writer, Dublin
Dr John Mulloy, Lecturer in Art History, Heritage and Applied Social Studies, GMIT Galway & Mayo
Ruaidhrí Mulveen, Galway
Maeve O’Brien, PhD Candidate, Ulster University
Tomás Ó Brógáin, BA Hons Irish History and Politics, Ulster University
Aileen O’Carroll, Irish Qualitative Data Archive, Maynooth University
Carrie O’Connell, Lecturer of Media Studies, San Diego State University
John O’Donovan, Independent Scholar, Cork
Terry O’Hagan, Researcher, University College Dublin
Nicole O’Loughlin, Northwell Health Systems, New York
Dr John Ó Néill, Head of Lifelong Learning, IT Tallaght, Dublin
Dr Sean Phelan, Senior Lecturer in Communication and Media, Massey University, Wellington
Dr Juan J Ponce-Vázquez, Assistant Professor of History, University of Alabama
Dr Niamh Puirséil, Historian, Dublin
Dr Stephanie Rains, Media Studies Dept, Maynooth University
Dr. Robert L. Reece, Duke University, North Carolina
Dr Joe Regan, History Dept., NUI Galway
Dr Matthew Reilly, Brown University, Rhode Island
F. Stuart Ross, Political Historian, Queen’s University Belfast
Ms Ebony Ryan, Dun Laoghaire
Zoé Samudzi, Writer and Academic, University of California San Francisco
Barry Sheppard, Post Graduate scholar, Queen’s University Belfast
David Sim, Lecturer in US History, University College London
Sharon Slater, Historian (MA), Limerick
Catherine Sloan, D. Phil researcher, Oxford University
Dr Sheamus Sweeney, Lecturer in Film and Television, Boston University Dublin Programs
Dr Robert Taber, University of Florida
Dr Gavan Titley, Lecturer in Media Studies, Maynooth University
Michael W. Twitty, Culinary Historian, Washington D.C.
Natasha Varner, PhD, Historian and Writer, Duwamish Territory/Seattle, WA
Dr Brian Vaughan, Lecturer and Course Chair MSc Creative Digital Media, DIT, Dublin
Haydyn Williams, Independent Archaeologist and researcher (former RCAHMS & British Museum), Scotland
Professor Patricia Wood, York University, Toronto, Canada
Catherine Walsh, poet, Independent scholar, teacher, Limerick
Cormac Watters, MA, London
If you want to believe in ahistorical rubbish I don't know why? Why do you want to believe this stuff so badly?
People now believe in all sorts of BS. Anyway your link says nothing about the Irish slave myth. I've looked into this topic years ago and so have many other people. Liam Hogan is a very good source to look up.
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