Easy Romance

[Empecinado]

Yeah, that's the way it is used in Catalan too: El rei en Pere. La Maria i en Bernat. In theory, we should say 'en' before male names started by a consonant. But to be honest, I say 'el': La Júlia i el Jordi, etc. However, it is maintained alive on TV, in literature, and in formal writings, usually as an equivalent of the Spanish don/doña. I've never heard the feminine Na used in Catalonia, though. In Majorca, however, they keep the en and na quite alive, and it's also used with names starting with a vowel.

Serra de Na Joana (Collserola).

[Mens-Sarda]

Nuorese is very similar to Logudorese but with minimal differences in pronounces and vocabulary and more archaisms, they basically are the same language, there are no difficulties to understand each other

[Comte Arnau]

Serra de Na Joana (Collserola).

Yep. But well, in placenames, even the salat article can be found: S'Agaró, Sant Joan Despí, Sant Just Desvern, etc.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

also in northern Italy they have the habit to put the article before names

curiously, in Emilia we only use the article with female names (in fact, not using it is seen as overly formal), while in Lombardy it is used with male ones as well.

[Comte Arnau]

In the Romance languages, the same preposition is used to indicate 'until' (+ time) and 'as far as, up/down to' (+ place). But the prepositions are different.

1. Latin: (DE) USQUE (AD) "(from) all the time (to), up to"

This is the origin for the French one: jusque, jusqu'à -- aller jusqu'à Paris = to go as far as Paris | jusqu'à la fin des temps = until the end of time

2. Latin: FINE (AD) "with a limit at, up to"

This is the origin for

- Italian: fino (a) -- andare fino a Roma = go as far as Rome | fino alla fine dei tempi = until the end of time
- Catalan: fins (a) -- anar fins a Barcelona = go as far as Barcelona | fins a la fi dels temps = until the end of time
- Occitan: fins (a) -- anar fins a Tolosa = go as far as Toulouse | fins a la fin dels tempses = until the end of time
- Swiss Romansh: fin -- ir fin Glion = go as far as Ilanz | fin la fin dals temps = until the end of time

(It's also the origin for the word used in many other Romance languages of Italy)

3. Latin: INTRO/INTRA (AD) "into, up to"

This is the origin for Old Occitan/Catalan/Aragonese forms entrò, tro, troa and the modern Aragonese/Gascon enta, entà, ta.

The short form TRA/TA is probably at the origin of the Portuguese and Spanish forms, and not Arabic hatta as it's usually said. Spanish (and Asturian) hasta would come from FACIE TA (> face ta > faz ta > fasta), just like hacia comes from FACIE AD, and so would the Portuguese até (and Galician ata), from A + T(R)A.

Spanish: hasta -- ir hasta Madrid = go as far as Madrid | hasta el fin de los tiempos = until the end of time
Portuguese: até -- ir até Lisboa = go as far as Lisbon | até a fim dos tempos = until the end of time

4. Latin: PAENE (AD) 'nearly (at)'

This is the origin for Romanian one: până -- merge până la București = go as far as Bucarest | până la sfârşitul timpului = until the end of time

[B01AB20]

The short form TRA/TA is probably at the origin of the Portuguese and Spanish forms, and not Arabic hatta as it's usually said. Spanish (and Asturian) hasta would come from FACIE TA (> face ta > faz ta > fasta), just like hacia comes from FACIE AD, and so would the Portuguese até (and Galician ata), from A + T(R)A.

Spanish: hasta -- ir hasta Madrid = go as far as Madrid | hasta el fin de los tiempos = until the end of time
Portuguese: até -- ir até Lisboa = go as far as Lisbon | até a fim dos tempos = until the end of time

hasta.

(Del ár. hisp. ḥattá, infl. por el lat. ad ista, hasta esto).

http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=hasta

you should elevate your theory to the RAE.

[Damião de Góis]

Portuguese: até -- ir até Lisboa = go as far as Lisbon | até ao fim dos tempos = until the end of time

fixed

[Comte Arnau]

http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=hasta

you should elevate your theory to the RAE.

I never rely on RAE's etymologies, they're usually from old-fashioned sources and whenever they don't risk suggesting a proposal they just say 'uncertain'.

The theory is not mine, btw. If so, I always mention it. But I had always found the theory of hasta coming from Arabic hatta quite fulera, to say the least. Why, if so, Old Spanish used fasta? And why that s in hasta? But well, if the RAE takes so long to update words, ni te cuento the time they'll take to update etymologies...

fixed

It was a deliberate mistake to see if you were paying attention..... Ok, no, not really.

Obrigado. up

[B01AB20]

I remember that 'hasta' was one the most common 'castellanades' people said when speaking in catalan some years ago.

Nowadays things have changed and everybody knows and uses the catalan word 'fins'.

You can't say the use of catalan hasn't advanced and improved in these years of 'normalization'.

[Comte Arnau]

I remember that 'hasta' was one the most common 'castellanades' people said when speaking in catalan some years ago.

Nowadays things have changed and everybody knows and uses the catalan word 'fins'.

You can't say the use of catalan haven't advanced and improved in these years of 'normalization'.

It has not improved. Quantity has meant a loss of quality. Catalan is now like English in that it has more second speakers than first ones, and that is a hard influence on the native ones. What happens is that you don't notice it because it's more subtle than using a castellanada, but pay attention. When you have two options in Catalan, like prou and suficient, the one that is more different from Spanish is slowly getting lost. Now all young guys agafen l'autobús, because they identify agafar with coger, while prendre is reserved for tomar. The Spanish word altura can be translated as altura, alçària and alçada, the three meaning different things. Have you heard anyone using them right? Now young people don't use gaire in the negative, but molt, because Spanish uses mucho both for the affirmative and the negative. Not to mention the many idioms and insults I hear every day that are just Catalanized Spanish ones...

So ok, now people make fewer mistakes, they can write Catalan properly and don't use obvious castellanades, but it's even worse. I prefer an old lady, who maybe can't write it and may even say things like gafes or hasta, but keeps a genuine intonation, knows how to use the pronouns, or uses a rich number of idioms that young people would hardly understand nowadays...