Do Greeks have "Turkish" blood?

[Vullkan]

Greece has been for 500 years under Ottoman empire.Is there any info about inter ethnic mixing during that time.
What percentage do current Greeks have Turkish blood .

Discuss

[Vullkan]

bump

[HellLander87]

idk man.What I know is that our muslim neighbours did assimilated a lot of turks.

[Vias]

Almost none. The Turkish governors took Greek (and Serb and Egyptian etc) wives by the bunch and they sent the kids to the capital city of the Empire where they'd become 'Turkified', aka Ottoman Muslims. The Greeks who had mixed with Turks are only accounted for in the late 19th century and the early 20th century in Asia Minor. And we don't know how many of them came back as Greek in the population exchange.

Your upteenth anti-Greek troll attempt is yet another failed one.

[Alphawolf]

Sure ;)

[Kemalisté]

They do. Just as Turks also do. This fact will never change no matter how long fanatics from both sides keep denying. Two peoples look very similar in terms of many things. That's why we always argue like two sisters.

[Rædwald]

Yes actually all modern Greeks are turkish, and all of their cultural innovations and discoveries can now be appropriated to turks :rolleyes:


I'm so sick of these threads :cool:

[wvwvw]

They do. Just as Turks also do. This fact will never change no matter how long fanatics from both sides keep denying. Two peoples look very similar in terms of many things. That's why we always argue like two sisters.

Turkish blood is more reddish in color, while Greek blood has huances of blue

[Kemalisté]

Turkish blood is more reddish in color, while Greek blood has huances of blue

That has no scientific value, just cheap generalization. Many people can't even distinguish between Turks and Greeks. Talking out of my own experiences.

[wvwvw]

That has no scientific value, just cheap generalization. Many people can't even distinguish between Turks and Greeks. Talking out of my own experiences.

I have a hard time distinguishing Turks from Kurds and Persians...talking out of my experience too

[Alphawolf]

The Germans say: "Griechen sind Türken, die sich für Italiener halten". So, Greeks are Turks who claim to be Italians. :P

[wvwvw]

The Germans say: "Griechen sind Türken, die sich für Italiener halten". So, Greeks are Turks who claim to be Italians. :P

You wouldn't want to know what we say about you

[Kemalisté]

I have a hard time distinguishing Turks from Kurds and Persians...talking out of my experience too

I doubt you had much experience with Turks. On the other hand you can ask many westerners to compare Greeks and Turks. The same goes for Italians. They have no much difference.

Sorry vagina complexed sis but you ain't scandinavians and you have as much blonde blue-eyed people as we have, approxiamately.

[wvwvw]

Greece has been for 500 years under Ottoman empire.Is there any info about inter ethnic mixing during that time.
What percentage do current Greeks have Turkish blood .

Discuss

Greece has been under Turkish rule for 400 years, not 500

Albania has been under Turkish rule for more than 500 years. It was the LAST country to gain its independence in the Balkans. It was practically granted to them, they didn't have to fire a shot.

The Ionian islands have never been under Turkish rule.

Crete has been under Turkish rule for less than 200 years

Even Pontos has been less time under Ottoman rule than Albanians.

[wvwvw]

I doubt you had much experience with Turks. On the other hand you can ask many westerners to compare Greeks and Turks. The same goes for Italians. They have no much difference.

Sorry vagina complexed sis but you ain't scandinavians and you have as much blonde blue-eyed people as we have, approxiamately.
I'm not your sis dickhead. Onun bunun cocugu siktir lan.

[Kemalisté]

I'm not your sis dickhead. Onun bunun cocugu siktir lan.

Where did you learn these words? from your latest Turkish fuck buddy?

[Also]

Even if there is a degree of physical similarity it doesn't mean it translates in terms of admixture. Any similarity could be due to evolutionary convergence.

[Vias]

It's funny that Turks who admit that we are similar are not able to read between the lines. They live in an area that has been Greek for thousands of years. A large portion of them are ethnically Greek who no longer speak the language. The problem with your 50-50 theory is that we have documents that clearly say that Greeks did not intermarry with Ottoman Turks in the 300-500 year span(depending on location) while there's also no record of Turks settling in 'Asia' (aka Asia Minor) by removing the indigenous population. On the contrary, the archives suggest that they were mostly interested in taxes and manpower, which was provided to them. By assuming the identity the Ottomans wanted, these people would have relaxed taxation, so they were 'Turkified'. Enjoy your heritage :)

[Alphawolf]

It's funny that Turks who admit that we are similar are not able to read between the lines. They live in an area that has been Greek for thousands of years. A large portion of them are ethnically Greek who no longer speak the language. The problem with your 50-50 theory is that we have documents that clearly say that Greeks did not intermarry with Ottoman Turks in the 300-500 year span(depending on location) while there's also no record of Turks settling in 'Asia' (aka Asia Minor) by removing the indigenous population. On the contrary, the archives suggest that they were mostly interested in taxes and manpower, which was provided to them. By assuming the identity the Ottomans wanted, these people would have relaxed taxation, so they were 'Turkified'. Enjoy your heritage :)

You must be joking.

[gültekin]

It's funny that Turks who admit that we are similar are not able to read between the lines. They live in an area that has been Greek for thousands of years. A large portion of them are ethnically Greek who no longer speak the language. The problem with your 50-50 theory is that we have documents that clearly say that Greeks did not intermarry with Ottoman Turks in the 300-500 year span(depending on location) while there's also no record of Turks settling in 'Asia' (aka Asia Minor) by removing the indigenous population. On the contrary, the archives suggest that they were mostly interested in taxes and manpower, which was provided to them. By assuming the identity the Ottomans wanted, these people would have relaxed taxation, so they were 'Turkified'. Enjoy your heritage :)

so and what about the fucking claim of Greeks,: "Barbarian Turks had raped us, Turks had assimilating us etc." after 400 years and all that had to no more Greeks be alive

[alexkid]

Damn this is one cray controversial topic, and my guess is probably not, I reckon the greeks hated their turkish rulers during that period that bearing their children would be considered the greatest shame.

Besides, Greece is southernmost in the Balkans, isn't it natural for them to be darker in pigmentation to other southern europeans?

[Vullkan]

Many greeks i have seen with surnames that end with oglu plus there was a good muslim population in greece .Plus we must consider the number of greek girls mated with turkish soldiers.
What do you think.

[Sikeliot]

It's that Turks have Greek genes and influence, not the other way around.

[Sikeliot]

Besides, Greece is southernmost in the Balkans, isn't it natural for them to be darker in pigmentation to other southern europeans?

Greeks are the same in pigmentation as other southern Europeans. And possibly not as dark as some of them.

[Vias]

so and what about the fucking claim of Greeks,: "Barbarian Turks had raped us, Turks had assimilating us etc." after 400 years and all that had to no more Greeks be alive

You probably have not reached the sex education level required to understand that humans are not like cats when it comes to a penis entering a vagina. Women don't get pregnant instantly... And since it did occur, but mostly in the late years of Ottoman conquest, I'm not sure whether the pregnant women kept the babies. I doubt they did. Maybe their fathers/husbands killed them as well in some cases, we can't tell.



Many greeks i have seen with surnames that end with oglu plus there was a good muslim population in greece .Plus we must consider the number of greek girls mated with turkish soldiers.
What do you think.

I think you're a dumb troll. If you were smart, replying to you could have been a challenge, but you're not so it's more like a hassle...

The -oglou surname in Greece does not mean much. It might mean that it's a Greek (or Greek speaking Christian) who lived in Anatolia or just someone who opted to use -oglou instead of -idis or -poulos or -ou or whatever just because he thought it was trendier.
And Greek girls did not mate with Turkish soldiers. Raped perhaps, but not that common during the 400 years or so. The only documentation of pregnant Greek girls from Turks has the result of the offspring being sent to the city of Byzantium(you know it as Istanbul) to become Ottoman Turks.

Muslim population of Greece was either Islamized Greeks, other Islamized Balkan people(Albanians mostly) and Ottoman settlers/soldiers [most of whom left in the early 19th century]. So any Turkish blood in Greeks must be from the forgotten Ottoman settlers of the 15th and 16th centuries, which I doubt is influential in our genetic pool.

Anything else you want to invent before you go to bed?

[alexkid]

Greeks are the same in pigmentation as other southern Europeans. And possibly not as dark as some of them.

I just go by geography, more southern = more sun and more of a tan. My opinion is pretty uneducated on these matters though + I've seen plenty of Greeks here who look as light as I do because they're in rainy old London where it's impossible to get the tan Greeks normally do in Greece.

[Sikeliot]

I just go by geography, more southern = more sun and more of a tan. My opinion is pretty uneducated on these matters though + I've seen plenty of Greeks here who look as light as I do because they're in rainy old London where it's impossible to get the tan Greeks normally do in Greece.

Again nearly all the "Greeks" in London are Cypriots, and Cypriots are genetically Levantine, not Greek.

The southernmost parts of Greece, Spain, and southern Italy are all roughly equal in latitude:

http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/southern/southern_europe_political_map.gif

[Pjeter Pan]

I don't know about Turkish but they seem to have negriod influence.

This 5000 year old photograph found in the ancient ruins of lesbos depicts Hercules as a Black man.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2vd4tqa.jpg
What do you guys think?

[gültekin]

You probably have not reached the sex education level required to understand that humans are not like cats when it comes to a penis entering a vagina. Women don't get pregnant instantly... And since it did occur, but mostly in the late years of Ottoman conquest, I'm not sure whether the pregnant women kept the babies. I doubt they did. Maybe their fathers/husbands killed them as well in some cases, we can't tell.
ahaha funny ,that's not the answer for my question , but, Greeks must check their own sex knowledge immediately, you have to learn how to make child, :laugh:
==> http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/08/01/greek-population-decreased-by-1-million-shows-census-data/
if not, we can teach you :swl

[Vullkan]

I think population mix in medieval countries .Greeks were under ottoman empire.Many children were taken by ottomans and education in Istanbul.Inter ethnic marriages were normal at that time .Could Greeks stop turiksh man from marrying a Greek girl .By the way the so called greek did not call themselves greek at that time.
According to wiki
The Ottomans, on the other hand, had a larger force. Recent studies and Ottoman archival data point out that there were about 50,000-80,000 Ottoman soldiers including between 5,000 and 10,000 Janissaries,[2][13][14] an elite infantry corps, and thousands of Christian troops, notably 1,500 Serbian cavalry that the Serbian lord Đurađ Branković supplied as part of his obligation to the Ottoman sultan. So we have greek soldiers and serbian that fought to take istambul.

[Scholarios]

Greece has been for 500 years under Ottoman empire.Is there any info about inter ethnic mixing during that time.
What percentage do current Greeks have Turkish blood .

Discuss

Maybe some. But given their Muslim
Religion it's undoubtable that Albanians have more. I don't mean that as an insult. I'm sure highlanders stayed pure- but I doubt Muslim Tosks did. Wasn't Elbasan essentially a Turkish fort?

[Scholarios]

I think population mix in medieval countries .Greeks were under ottoman empire.Many children were taken by ottomans and education in Istanbul.Inter ethnic marriages were normal at that time .Could Greeks stop turiksh man from marrying a Greek girl .By the way the so called greek did not call themselves greek at that time.
According to wiki
The Ottomans, on the other hand, had a larger force. Recent studies and Ottoman archival data point out that there were about 50,000-80,000 Ottoman soldiers including between 5,000 and 10,000 Janissaries,[2][13][14] an elite infantry corps, and thousands of Christian troops, notably 1,500 Serbian cavalry that the Serbian lord Đurađ Branković supplied as part of his obligation to the Ottoman sultan. So we have greek soldiers and serbian that fought to take istambul.


Yes, Turks married Greek AND Albanian women- but their offspring became Turks.

[Queen B]

Orthodox + Muslim -> Muslim.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I don't know about Turkish but they seem to have negriod influence.

This 5000 year old photograph found in the ancient ruins of lesbos depicts Hercules as a Black man.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2vd4tqa.jpg
What do you guys think?

Doesnt look black to me. Looks middle eastern

[Danishmend]

It's that Turks have Greek genes and influence, not the other way around.
You are clearly biased.

1. It's true that the Turks have absorbed a lot of native genes via exogamy, just like any other conquerors anywhere in the world. But pre-Turkic Anatolia was populated by Greek-speaking Roman citizens (the Seljuks called them "Rum", which means "Roman") and for sure they were not Greeks, nor did they identify themselves as such

2. The Karamanlides were most likely the descendants of the religiously converted Turkish soldiers (Turcopoles) that Byzantines settled in Central Anatolia. Unlike the other Christian subjects in Anatolia, the Karamanlides spoke Turkish as their mother tongue, they were basically Christian Turks. At the time of the exchange they numbered as many as 400,000

3. Distribution of Turkish tribes in Balkan peninsula between 15th & 17th centuries
http://i.hizliresim.com/ml42a1.jpg

[HellLander87]

You are clearly biased.


as many as 400,000


dat number is BS.

[wvwvw]

I think population mix in medieval countries .Greeks were under ottoman empire.Many children were taken by ottomans and education in Istanbul.Inter ethnic marriages were normal at that time .Could Greeks stop turiksh man from marrying a Greek girl .By the way the so called greek did not call themselves greek at that time.
According to wiki
The Ottomans, on the other hand, had a larger force. Recent studies and Ottoman archival data point out that there were about 50,000-80,000 Ottoman soldiers including between 5,000 and 10,000 Janissaries,[2][13][14] an elite infantry corps, and thousands of Christian troops, notably 1,500 Serbian cavalry that the Serbian lord Đurađ Branković supplied as part of his obligation to the Ottoman sultan. So we have greek soldiers and serbian that fought to take istambul.

If anyone mixed that would be Turks and Albanians as they were both Muslims.
These Abanians are not gypsies, they are the product of Albanian-Turkish mixes:

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1386/80/1386808696821.jpg

Even Kastrioti admitted half of Albania is populated by "subhumans" such as these.

[Scholarios]

dat number is BS.

Yes, it's quadrupled. But I'm used to Turks exaggerating their influence at expense of others dignity.

I would like to know the origin of Karamanlides though...

[Danishmend]

I'm not exaggerating, blame historians

[HellLander87]

Yes, it's quadrupled. But I'm used to Turks exaggerating their influence at expense of others dignity.

I would like to know the origin of Karamanlides though...
I doubt they are turcopoles. Probably linguistically turkicized local anatolians.

[wvwvw]

Karamanlides were as much Turkish as the Gagauz were "Turkish".

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/greeksasiaminor.gif

[Scholarios]

I'm not exaggerating, blame historians

I'm not going to dig up the official League of Nations statistics and post them in tables for the 5th time. But after the population exchange when census was taken on mother tongue there were 190,000 Turkish speakers in Greece- including Muslims of Thrace. Karamanlides were around 110,000.

[wvwvw]

Greeks have no Turkish blood:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

The gagauz have no Turkish blood either...blame their genetics :noidea:

[Danishmend]

I doubt they are turcopoles. Probably linguistically turkicized local anatolians.

Turkicized, but not Islamicized eh?

[legolasbozo]

The Germans say: "Griechen sind Türken, die sich für Italiener halten". So, Greeks are Turks who claim to be Italians. :P


i heard that once. but it was a bit longer; "italians are greeks who claims to be french, greeks are turks who claims to be italians, turks are arabs who claims to be greeks" :D

[HellLander87]

Turkicized, but not Islamicized eh?
They were cut off from the main body of Greek speakers and they lost the language.
Also this region was lost to the byzantine empire very early.
It would be normal to lose their language if they were living surrounded by turks for hundreds of years.

[Alphawolf]

They were cut off from the main body of Greek speakers and they lost the language.
Also this region was lost to the byzantine empire very early.
It would be normal to lose their language if they were living surrounded by turks for hundreds of years.

This is not a valid argument. Why (hellenized-)Pontic-Greeks don't changed their language?

[Scholarios]

This is not a valid argument. Why (hellenized-)Pontic-Greeks don't changed their language?

I don't claim to know who or what Karamanlides were originally- but the linguistic and ethnic situation in Anatolia was very complex into the 20th century. Furthermore the original Turks were outnumbered by native Anatolians- Greeks, Armenians, Hellenized Romans in general. Given how much longer Karaman was cut off from the East Romans ( since 11th Century at least)- it seems natural. Isolation from the East Romans also makes it equally unlikely that they were descendents of Turcopole mercenaries settled by the Byzantines.

[Danishmend]

Karamanlides were as much Turkish as the Gagauz were "Turkish".

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/greeksasiaminor.gif

The Gagauz people managed to keep their Oghuz tongue alive in an ocean of Romance, Slavic and Greek speakers. These language replacement theories are becoming boring. They already lived in the Balkans and spoke Turkish as mother tongue prior to the Ottoman conquest in the late 14th century, nobody forced them to speak Turkish, that was the language of their ancestors

[Insuperable]

Greeks have no Turkish blood:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

The gagauz have no Turkish blood either...blame their genetics :noidea:

Greek don't have, but Gagauz do have some.

They are the most similar to other Balkan people, but they have some imo

The Gagauzes are a small Turkish-speaking ethnic group living mostly in southern Moldova and northeastern Bulgaria. The origin of the Gagauzes is obscure. They may be descendants of the Turkic nomadic tribes from the Eurasian steppes, as suggested by the "Steppe" hypothesis, or have a complex Anatolian-steppe origin, as postulated by the "Seljuk" or "Anatolian" hypothesis. To distinguish these hypotheses, a sample of 89 Y-chromosomes representing two Gagauz populations from the Republic of Moldova was analyzed for 28 binary and seven STR polymorphisms. In the gene pool of the Gagauzes a total of 15 Y-haplogroups were identified, the most common being I-P37 (20.2%), R-M17 (19.1%), G-M201 (13.5%), R-M269 (12.4%), and E-M78 (11.1%). The present Gagauz populations were compared with other Balkan, Anatolian, and Central Asian populations by means of genetic distances, nonmetric multidimentional scaling and analyses of molecular variance. The analyses showed that Gagauzes belong to the Balkan populations, suggesting that the Gagauz language represents a case of language replacement in southeastern Europe. Interestingly, the detailed study of microsatellite haplotypes revealed some sharing between the Gagauz and Turkish lineages, providing some support of the hypothesis of the "Seljuk origin" of the Gagauzes. The faster evolving microsatellite loci showed that the two Gagauz samples investigated do not represent a homogeneous group. This finding matches the cultural and linguistic heterogeneity of the Gagauzes well, suggesting a crucial role of social factors in shaping the Gagauz Y-chromosome pool and possibly also of effects of genetic drift.

[Danishmend]

They were cut off from the main body of Greek speakers and they lost the language.

So were the Cappadocian Greeks? Why didn't they lose their language?

[wvwvw]

This is not a valid argument. Why (hellenized-)Pontic-Greeks don't changed their language?
Pontic Greeks lived in an isolated mountainous region. They came under Ottoman rule a century after balkans did

[Vullkan]

I think is hard to define the data in Greece since the goverment itself has a national strategic interest to not pursue the truth.They either know it or try to hide it or they don't know it that is even worse.
In the ottoman era population mixing and displacement was a weapon to control the Balkans thats why the Balkan peninsula is a little fucked up.
The day that the Greek people will accept their heritage either it was albanian,vlach,turk or whatever ,the more stable the country will be.The way that Greece thinks that it is a pure nation with no minorities is not what Europe teaches and are not the Europe values.Greece should not be the most uncivilized nation in European union.

[HellLander87]

So were the Cappadocian Greeks? Why didn't they lose their language?
That doesn't prove anything.Some pontics were also turkish speakers but Christians.Were they turcopoles too?
The region was lost very early for the byzantines to influence its settlement.Turcopoles were either later islamicized or absorbed to christian populations wherever they lived.We need genetics to find if karamalides have indeed mongoloid influences.They don't look turanid by the looks though.

[Alphawolf]

I don't claim to know who or what Karamanlides were originally- but the linguistic and ethnic situation in Anatolia was very complex into the 20th century. Furthermore the original Turks were outnumbered by native Anatolians- Greeks, Armenians, Hellenized Romans in general. Given how much longer Karaman was cut off from the East Romans ( since 11th Century at least)- it seems natural. Isolation from the East Romans also makes it equally unlikely that they were descendents of Turcopole mercenaries settled by the Byzantines.

At that time there were no courses to learn a foreign language. And the people were dependent on their language in to all intents and puposes. The language served as an identity, and secured their togetherness as a group. The argument of a language replacement is largely obsolete, because nobody forget his native language, if you learn a second language at the same time. However, the Karamanlis speak only one language, and this is Turkish.

[Vullkan]

queen b and rain have only one aim thumb down my posts .I am honored of your attention.But i am not givin you the d :cool:

Ps:Can anyone give thumbs up to this post please i like to stay positive :thumb001:
I myself have given only one thumbs up.

[Danishmend]

That doesn't prove anything.Some pontics were also turkish speakers but Christians.Were they turcopoles too?
Because they were bilingual. Turkish wasn't their mother tongue, unlike in the case of the Karamanlides



The region was lost very early for the byzantines to influence its settlement.Turcopoles were either later islamicized or absorbed to christian populations wherever they lived.We need genetics to find if karamalides have indeed mongoloid influences.They don't look turanid by the looks though.
They must have been mating with other Christians for centuries (with Cappadocian Greeks before the exchange, then with mainland Greeks)

[HellLander87]

At that time there were no courses to learn a foreign language. And the people were dependent on their language in to all intents and puposes. The language served as an identity, and secured their togetherness as a group. The argument of a language replacement is largely obsolete, because nobody forget his native language, if you learn a second language at the same time. However, the Karamanlis speak only one language, and this is Turkish.People back then in multilingual regions spoke 2 and three languages.It seems they could do without books.
If nobody had lost his native language you would be speaking Greek now.

[Danishmend]

People back then in multilingual regions spoke 2 and three languages.It seems they could do without books.
If nobody had lost his native language you would be speaking Greek now.

He is from Kütahya as far as i know, a province full of Yörüks lol

[HellLander87]

Because they were bilingual. Turkish wasn't their mother tongue, unlike in the case of the Karamanlides

I wasn't talking about billingualism.

[HellLander87]

He is from Kütahya as far as i know, a province full of Yörüks lol
Yeah,because even most muslim turkish speakers weren't considered Turks 150 y ago.They were just muslim ottomans.The term turk was reserved for some nomadic tribes as the yoruks.

[Xanthias]

isn't it the opposite ? do Turks have more greek blood ?

[HellLander87]

isn't it the opposite ?
Yup it's the opposite.

[Danishmend]

Yeah,because even most muslim turkish speakers weren't considered Turks 150 y ago.They were just muslim ottomans.The term turk was reserved for some nomadic tribes as the yoruks.

False. Most of the muslims in Anatolia were ethnic Turks (be it Yoruk, Manav, Turkmen etc), but of course there were non-Turkish muslim minorities as well, such as the Laz, Kurds and Circassians

[Dianatomia]

Turks are not really Turks. That is, genetically they have only slight influence of original Turkic invaders. Greeks have none at all. The rest is irrelevant. If one has evidence of Turkic influence in Greeks, please feel free to share this peer reviewed research so we can have some contradictive evidence to all the researches we have seen so far. Perhaps then we can argue.

Don't think any other people in the Balkans has mixed with Turks either. Perhaps Bosniaks and Albanians, given their religion did not limit their intermixture.

[wvwvw]

Greek don't have, but Gagauz do have some.

They are the most similar to other Balkan people, but they have some imo


They cluster with Romanians

[Sikeliot]

Without Greek influence Turks would look like Iranians and Afghans with Mongol influence.

[Danishmend]

Turks are not really Turks. That is, genetically they have only slight influence of original Turkic invaders. Greeks have none at all. The rest is irrelevant. If one has evidence of Turkic influence in Greeks, please feel free to share this peer reviewed research so we can have some contradictive evidence to all the researches we have seen so far. Perhaps then we can argue.

Don't think any other people in the Balkans has mixed with Turks either. Perhaps Bosniaks and Albanians, given their religion did not limit their intermixture.

This is the biggest anthrofora joke. We don't have any dna sample from the Seljuk Turks of the medieval era. But you know what? We do have dna samples of proto Indo-Europeans. Based on the distribution of their y-choromosome r1a, only a very small number of Greeks descend from them

[wvwvw]

Most yoruks have blonde hair and green eyes as i know, they nothing do with mongolian nomads. Turkmen are minority in central Anatolia(they asimileted by us Anatolians) they mostly live Maraş and Antep those area got mixed Syrian,Tadjiks,Turkmens and hittites
-Emperor Alexios I Komnenos's daughter Anna Comnena wrote about the Turks that arrived to Anatolia, "they were as crowded as a horde of grasshoppers" in her book called Alexiad.

-Historian Abu'l Fida mentions about 200.000 Turkmen tents only in Antalya region. Sources also mention about 100.000 Turkmen tents in Eski

[Insuperable]

They cluster with Romanians

They are similar to Romanians and Bulgarians, but are a bit more Mid Eastern if we are to follow Eurogenes, MDLP...and I think this is due to shared ancestry theorized about in spoiler. I could be wrong though.

[Danishmend]

Without Greek influence Turks would look like Iranians and Afghans with Mongol influence.
On the contrary, Turks with less native/more Turkic admixture tend to look more Northern/Eurasian. Take the Yoruks for example
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AWaKCgZZWKI/TWdcliP_lwI/AAAAAAAAAQo/Iqf3uCUUd5M/s1600/manset-ic-4.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KwNYHPyu_eM/Tw_wOIYRUvI/AAAAAAAAHCE/tvWBt-uk3zs/s1600/LiveImages-Foto+Haber-157-Y%25C3%25B6r%25C3%25BCkler+yerle%25C5%259Fik+hayat a+ge%25C3%25A7mek+istiyor-A22102317.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5310/comakdagiyoreselkiyafet.jpg


-Emperor Alexios I Komnenos's daughter Anna Comnena wrote about the Turks that arrived to Anatolia, "they were as crowded as a horde of grasshoppers" in her book called Alexiad.

-Historian Abu'l Fida mentions about 200.000 Turkmen tents only in Antalya region. Sources also mention about 100.000 Turkmen tents in Eski

At least we can agree on something

[Sikeliot]

On the contrary, Turks with less native/more Turkic admixture tend to look more Northern/Eurasian.

Well those are more Turkic looking people. I mean the Med type of Turks who have what I'd describe as an "Iranid" influence, kind of shared with people like Armenians and whatnot.

[Danishmend]

Pan turkic propaganda

Do you really accuse Anna Comnena, a Byzantine princess, of spreading Pan-Turkic propaganda? OMG what a moron

[Danishmend]

Well those are more Turkic looking people. I mean the Med type of Turks who have what I'd describe as an "Iranid" influence, kind of shared with people like Armenians and whatnot.
Well, i don't agree with you

[Sikeliot]

Well, i don't agree with you

You don't have to agree, that's my opinion.

[Alphawolf]

Without Greek influence Turks would look like Iranians and Afghans with Mongol influence.

Do you really think that a population of 8 million Greeks have influenced the gene pool of 80 million Turks more than the other way around?

[Dianatomia]

This is the biggest anthrofora joke. We don't have any dna sample from the Seljuk Turks of the medieval era. But you know what? We do have dna samples of proto Indo-Europeans. Based on the distribution of their y-choromosome r1a, only a very small number of Greeks descend from them

Turks do have some central asian haplogroups in them. They are just rather limited considering their original origins which is central asia. The point of the matter is that Greeks do not have them. Neither Armenians or Serbs, or Croats. Had there been intermixture with Turks they should have had something. Less than Turks, but still.

Now you may say that at least this does not prove that Turks are not really Turks. Well, you can believe what you want and I don't have the time to get into it. But believe me that there is tons of genetic evidence that Turks lost more and more of their genetic signature as they advanced.

I nice example you brought up about proto-indo european admixture in Greeks. The irony is that both Turks and Greeks are mostly indigenous. It's just that the Greek language along with some of their genes was brought by indo-europeans 3 millenia BC to the Aegean region, while the Turkic language started off by Altaic speakers the 9th century A.D in Central Asia, ending in Anatolia with some of their genes.

[Scholarios]

At that time there were no courses to learn a foreign language. And the people were dependent on their language in to all intents and puposes. The language served as an identity, and secured their togetherness as a group. The argument of a language replacement is largely obsolete, because nobody forget his native language, if you learn a second language at the same time. However, the Karamanlis speak only one language, and this is Turkish.

The fact is that the Turks colonized Anatolia through elite dominance for a thousand years. Same as Slavs in Greece, the native Anatolians and Greeks lost their languages (it's also why most Anatolians spoke Greek as a mother tongue after Greek presence in Anatolia for thousands of years) Inhabitants of Bythinia didn't and don't speak Phrygian and the people of Mugla no longer speak Carian- and haven't for thousands of years.

[Danishmend]

The fact is that the Turks colonized Anatolia through elite dominance for a thousand years.

No matter how many times you repeat this anthrofora myth, it doesn't make it true. I'm too educated to believe this outdated BS, thanks to Ottoman tax archives and recent genetic studies. Even if you take and use pure-mongoloid Japanese genome as a proxy for incoming Seljuk Turks in order to determine the Turkic admixture in Anatolian Turks, that would still not make your 'theory of elite dominance' any less hilarious

[Scholarios]

No matter how many times you repeat this anthrofora myth, it doesn't make it true. I'm too educated to believe this outdated BS, thanks to Ottoman tax archives and recent genetic studies. Even if you take and use pure-mongoloid Japanese genome as a proxy for incoming Seljuk Turks in order to determine the Turkic admixture in Anatolian Turks, that would still not make your 'theory of elite dominance' any less hilarious

Riddle me this: which myth is less true? That millions of non-Turk Anatolians inhabited Asia Minor before the Seljuks came or that you guys are genetically overwhelmingly descendents of said Turks? I'm aware that shepherd Yoruks followed the warriors- but do you have any non-nationalist sources about numbers?


I don't read anthroscape or whatever. I just have spare time for one mindless indulgence.

[morski]

No, but Turks have some Greek blood among all other admixtures in their tyurlyu gyuvech.

[Chrissi]

Of course they intermixed heavily up to Bulgaria, Serbia and others. Usually you can tell them apart from the ethnic population but with greek they practically assimilated.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Riddle me this: which myth is less true? That millions of non-Turk Anatolians inhabited Asia Minor before the Seljuks came or that you guys are genetically overwhelmingly descendents of said Turks? I'm aware that shepherd Yoruks followed the warriors- but do you have any non-nationalist sources about numbers?


I don't read anthroscape or whatever. I just have spare time for one mindless indulgence.

In Suleiman the Magnicifent time Yoruks made up 30% of the Anatolian population. Those who moved to big cities or accepted sedentary lifestyle are not counted. I don't know much about balkans, but anatolia was pretty much Turkish. This Turkification is started by Seljuks and Turkish principalities (11-14th century). In the meantime Ottomans were busy with balkans.

[ioan assen]

I believe that if there was mixing, it was small. Why? Because the Greeks and the Turks lived in selfgoverning societies and rarely mixed. So the only options for a Greek nowadays to have any Turkish blood is if a Turkish man raped a Greek woman. The Greeks who got muslim for lowering their taxes (ecomonic reasons) or so that they grow in the social ladder were turkified and presently are not Greek. As for the fact that Turks and Greeks look similar: well I believe that presentday Turks descend maynly from Turkified Byzantines, who were either hellenized Anatolians or at least people related to the Greeks. The preottoman culture of Anatolia attest to this.
So in short: presentday Greeks have small persentage of Turkic blood, because it was uncommon for a Greek and Turk to get married. If they did, the Turkic culture prevailed (the culture of the elite) and the Greeks were turkified so presently their descendants are Turks. I dont think the other option was actually existing or possible (Turkish man or woman to get christianized and hellenized). The fact that the Turks assimilated large groups of Greeks or Greek related people is obvious by the appearance of the Turks and the fact that they differ alot from the Central Asian Turkics (where they started their journey).

[wvwvw]

^^ The same goes for bulgarians
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

[morski]

At that time there were no courses to learn a foreign language. And the people were dependent on their language in to all intents and puposes. The language served as an identity, and secured their togetherness as a group. The argument of a language replacement is largely obsolete, because nobody forget his native language, if you learn a second language at the same time. However, the Karamanlis speak only one language, and this is Turkish.
You are completly wrong inyour assumptions.

I suggest you first get acquainted with the concept of language attrition and then take into consideration the widely known fact, that there was an abundance of settlements in the Ottoman empire, which had a population that was bi- and trilingual and in various states of language attrition, depending on the socio-economic context and the geographical location. Throughout history, especially prior to the modern unitary nation states, people in contact zones have always been using a multitude of languages, dialects, vernaculars, cryptolects and creole and pidgin bastardisations for practical purposes. The relative uniformity in speach over a large territory is a modern phenomenon. The identity of people largely depended on religious affiliation, règional ties and sometimes - the sense of shared history or statehood with neighbouring regions.

[Borna]

Is Pope catholic ?

[Dianatomia]

Do you really think that a population of 8 million Greeks have influenced the gene pool of 80 million Turks more than the other way around?

It's the other way around actually. One should analyse this from a historical perspective. Numerically the well established Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds and many others vastly outnumbered the Turkish travelers who settled in Anatolia in the middle ages. In the empire one could find the biggest cities in the world. This was one of the most densely populated regions at the time, while the Turks came with tents as nomads from the Central Asians steppes. They could not compete numerically against the indigenous inhabitants of the Byzantine empire. This is why they Ottomans followed certain assimilation codes. The Jannitsaries for example were an army of forcefully converted natives. That's because the Turks didn't have the numbers to maintain a large force by themselves. Turks never founded cities. They conquered them and took over control while they intermixed with the native population.

Numbers of today are irrelevant. Demographics change.

[Danishmend]

It's the other way around actually. One should analyse this from a historical perspective. Numerically the well established Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds and many others vastly outnumbered the Turkish travelers who settled in Anatolia in the middle ages. In the empire one could find the biggest cities in the world. This was one of the most densely populated regions at the time, while the Turks came with tents as nomads from the Central Asians steppes. They could not compete numerically against the indigenous inhabitants of the Byzantine empire. This is why they Ottomans followed certain assimilation codes. The Jannitsaries for example were an army of forcefully converted natives. That's because the Turks didn't have the numbers to maintain a large force by themselves. Turks never founded cities. They conquered them and took over control while they intermixed with the native population.

Numbers of today are irrelevant. Demographics change.

The Turkmen tribes made up at least 30-50% of the Anatolia that lies on the western side of the river euphrates. And the devshirme practive (Janissaries) had nothing to do with numbers, you Greeks are talking out of your ass without basic historical knowledge. There were too many Turkmen tribes in Anatolia at the time, even some of these huge tribes (such as Rumlu, Shamlu, Varsak, Dulkadir, Tekeli, Ustadjalu) responded to the invitation of Shah Ismail, migrated to Northern Iran and Azerbaijan and gave rise to the Azerbaijani nation, creating the Safavid empire. The devshirme practice was designed so as not to develop any hereditary aristocracy which could threaten the position of the Ottoman Sultan and his family. Hence, until the 17th century, only non-Muslims could enter the devşirme, and finally this new practice eliminated all the Turkmen aristocracy (such as Çandarlı family) in less than a century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87andarl%C4%B1_family


Sultan Mehmed II disliked his late father's grand vizier Çandarlı Halil Pasha, whom he had inherited on his succession to the throne in 1451. After conquering Constantinople (İstanbul) in 1453, he had Halil executed, making him the first of many Grand Viziers to be executed. After Halil, four of his Grand Viziers were of devşirme (i.e. non-Turkish) origin.


Let me quote your compatriot once again

-Emperor Alexios I Komnenos's daughter Anna Comnena wrote about the Turks that arrived to Anatolia, "they were as crowded as a horde of grasshoppers" in her book called Alexiad.

-Historian Abu'l Fida mentions about 200.000 Turkmen tents only in Antalya region. Sources also mention about 100.000 Turkmen tents in Eski

[Dianatomia]

The Turkmen tribes made up at least 30-50% of the Anatolia that lies on the western side of the river euphrates. And the devshirme practive (Janissaries) had nothing to do with numbers, you Greeks are talking out of your ass without basic historical knowledge.


You are correct. The devshirme primary purpose was to counteract the Turkish nobility.
This doesn't change the fact that the numbers of the Turks were limited compared to indigenous populations.


The question to what extent a gene flow from Central Asia to Anatolia has contributed to the current gene pool of the Turkish people, and what the role is in this of the 11th century invasion by Oghuz Turks, has been the subject of several studies. A factor that makes it difficult to give reliable estimates, is the problem of distinguishing between the effects of different migratory episodes. Several studies have concluded that the historical and indigenous Anatolian groups are the primary source of the present-day Turkish population.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Turkish_people

As for the sources of you mention about the quantity of Turks entering Anatolia. Medieval and Ancient sources about quantities are almost always inaccurate, usually overstatements, and always contradict each other when having more then one source. We have numerous examples of this. But to make things easy for you. Even if there were hundreds of thousands of tents, they would still be outnumbered by the vastly overwhelming inhabitants of the empire.

Do not think that I am provoking you because I am Greek, as all I am interested about is the truth. I wouldn't care less if all Turks are originally Turks or not. But it seems clear to me that they are mostly indigenous people who assimilated the culture and religion of the Turkish newcomers which may have been many, but certainly not the majority.

As for some historical sources. You may be very interested in this online book: The Turkish Colonization of Anatolia (https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1904&datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF).

[wvwvw]

Originally Posted by El Turco
Do you really think that a population of 8 million Greeks have influenced the gene pool of 80 million Turks more than the other way around?

Turks have not influenced the genetic pool of Greeks. You cluster together with Armenians, Azeris, Assyrians and Kurds.

It is also true that Turkic tribes became the majority in Anatolia,

-Emperor Alexios I Komnenos's daughter Anna Comnena wrote about the Turks that arrived to Anatolia, "they were as crowded as a horde of grasshoppers" in her book called Alexiad.

-Historian Abu'l Fida mentions about 200.000 Turkmen tents only in Antalya region. Sources also mention about 100.000 Turkmen tents in Eski

I can post more sources that prove that Turks inhabited Anatolia in large numbers.

[StonyArabia]

No they have Anatolian blood, but not Turkic.

[StonyArabia]

Turks have not influenced the genetic pool of Greeks. You cluster together with Armenians, Azeris, Assyrians and Kurds.

It is also true that Turkic tribes became the majority in Anatolia,

-Emperor Alexios I Komnenos's daughter Anna Comnena wrote about the Turks that arrived to Anatolia, "they were as crowded as a horde of grasshoppers" in her book called Alexiad.

-Historian Abu'l Fida mentions about 200.000 Turkmen tents only in Antalya region. Sources also mention about 100.000 Turkmen tents in Eski

I can post more sources that prove that Turks inhabited Anatolia in large numbers.

Assyrians cluster with North Iraqi Arabs and Mandeans not with Turks, but their intermarriage with Armenians is often what shifts them to that direction.

[Alexandros]

This is a simple question, xhondoe!
Compare Turkey-Turks with Greeks or other Balkan-People, South-Italians, Spanish people an than compare Turkey-Turks with Azerbaijani, Uzbeki or Turkmeni Turks.






Alexandros

[wvwvw]

No they have Anatolian blood, but not Turkic.

Annihilus who is a Balkan Turk scores heavily East Asian. Half his chromosomes are painted yellow.

[wvwvw]

Assyrians cluster with North Iraqi Arabs and Mandeans not with Turks, but their intermarriage with Armenians is often what shifts them to that direction.

It is their East Asian that causes them not to cluster together. Turks who score little East Asian cluster with Armenians and Assyrians

[Dianatomia]

I can post more sources that prove that Turks inhabited Anatolia in large numbers.

This is not the point. You would have to prove that they outnumbered the Anatolians in order for them to be the majority.

[wvwvw]

This is a simple question, xhondoe!
Compare Turkey-Turks with Greeks or other Balkan-People, South-Italians, Spanish people an than compare Turkey-Turks with Azerbaijani, Uzbeki or Turkmeni Turks.






Alexandros

Turks had to pass through Central Asia and the Middle East to reach Anatolia. They never were fully Mongoloid. On their way to Anatolia they intermixed with various people, but that doesn't make them any less Turkic

[StonyArabia]

Annihilus who is a Balkan Turk scores heavily East Asian. Half his chromosomes are painted yellow.

This was in regards if Greeks have Turkish elements, they don't but they do have pre-Turkic Anatolian ancestry like the Pontics. Yes Balkan Turks are basically descendant of the Turkic tribes that entered into the region and thus not Islamized/Turkified Balkanoids, but there is also a Tatar presence in the Balkans this one should keep mind.

[Scholarios]

Turks had to pass through Central Asia and the Middle East to reach Anatolia. They were originally not fully Mongoloid. On their way to Anatolia they intermixed with various people, but that doesn't make them any less Turkic

Nonetheless, they assimilated millions of native Anatolians not to mention Balkanites. This is a matter of historical record.

[StonyArabia]

The Seljuks were heavily mixed with Iranians already and had a Persianate culture btw

[Vias]

ahaha funny ,that's not the answer for my question , but, Greeks must check their own sex knowledge immediately, you have to learn how to make child, :laugh:
==> http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/08/01/greek-population-decreased-by-1-million-shows-census-data/
if not, we can teach you :swl

we use condoms..

[Danishmend]

This is not the point. You would have to prove that they outnumbered the Anatolians in order for them to be the majority.

The point is, even in the 11th century there were enough Turkish population to make the Asia Minor 'Turchia' or 'Turcomania' in the eyes westerners.

[Dianatomia]

The Seljuks were heavily mixed with Iranians already and had a Persianate culture btw

Sure, but if the Turks would exclusively be Turks who mixed with Iranians, they would have to cluster to the east of them. In fact they cluster to the west of them. Because of the Anatolian admixture.

[Vias]

I think is hard to define the data in Greece since the goverment itself has a national strategic interest to not pursue the truth.They either know it or try to hide it or they don't know it that is even worse.
In the ottoman era population mixing and displacement was a weapon to control the Balkans thats why the Balkan peninsula is a little fucked up.
The day that the Greek people will accept their heritage either it was albanian,vlach,turk or whatever ,the more stable the country will be.The way that Greece thinks that it is a pure nation with no minorities is not what Europe teaches and are not the Europe values.Greece should not be the most uncivilized nation in European union.

obvious troll is too obvious

[StonyArabia]

Sure, but if the Turks would exclusively be Turks who mixed with Iranians, they would have to cluster to the east of them. In fact they cluster to the west of them. Because of the Anatolian admixture.

Of course, but the Seljuks/Turks were not pure Mongoloid as they came from Turkmenistan who already had Iranic presence and when they migrated through Iran they took even more Iranian cultural elements and lineages. Thus why most of the Turkic states in Anatolia were Persianate like the Sultanate of Rum and even the Ottomans were Persianate and patrons of Persian culture not Arab one.

[Danishmend]

Nonetheless, they assimilated millions of native Anatolians not to mention Balkanites. This is a matter of historical record.

So did the Slavs when they invaded Balkan peninsula, and the Indo-Europeans when they invaded what is now Greece and were numerically outnumbered by non-Indo-European natives. That is called 'intermarriage', which played a critical role in history.

[Dianatomia]

The point is, even in the 11th century there were enough Turkish population to make the Asia Minor 'Turchia' or 'Turcomania' in the eyes westerners.

Turcomania was the land 'ruled' by Turcomen and it was only a small province of Asia minor. Marco Polo said it was a part of Anatolia which was inhabited by Greeks, Armenians and Turkomans.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Travels_of_Marco_Polo/Book_1/Chapter_2

Still, no evidence whatsover has been provided by any user that the majority of people in Anatolia were Turks.

[Proto-Shaman]

Most yoruks have blonde hair and green eyes as i know, they nothing do with mongolian nomads. Turkmen are minority in central Anatolia(they asimileted by us Anatolians) they mostly live Maraş and Antep those area got mixed Syrian,Tadjiks,Turkmens and hittites
Yörüks are not Mongols, they are Turks and they are of Turkic origin.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Most yoruks have blonde hair and green eyes as i know, they nothing do with mongolian nomads. Turkmen are minority in central Anatolia(they asimileted by us Anatolians) they mostly live Maraş and Antep those area got mixed Syrian,Tadjiks,Turkmens and hittites

idiot

[Linet]

Lets take things from the beginning.... up to history the turkic tribes were originaly in China :costumed-smiley-067, then they moved to central Asia :desert: and from there we had the great luck http://yoursmiles.org/ssmile/quarrel/s0653.gif to have them coming to our lands.
They should look like mongols...since they dont, they are heavily mixed http://yoursmiles.org/ksmile/whitepiggy/k1717.gif....easy to understand that i think....
No, they have not assimilated only the Greeks but the entire Balkans exists in their gene pool.....


Wiki: It is generally agreed that the first Turkic people lived in a region extending from Central Asia to Siberia with the majority of them living in China historically. Historically they were established after the 6th century BCE.[43] The earliest separate Turkic peoples appeared on the peripheries of the late Xiongnu confederation (contemporaneous with the Chinese Han Dynasty).[44] Turkic people may be related to the Xiongnu, Dingling and Tiele people. According to the Book of Wei, the Tiele people were the remaining of the Chidi (赤狄), the red Di people competing with the Jin in the Spring and Autumn Period.[45] Turkic tribes, such as Khazars and Pechenegs, probably lived as nomads for many years before establishing the Göktürk Empire or Mongolia in the 6th century. These were herdsmen and nobles who were searching for new pastures and wealth. The first mention of Turks was in a Chinese text that mentioned trade of Turk tribes with the Sogdians along the Silk Road.[46] The first recorded use of "Turk" as a political name is a 6th-century reference to the word pronounced in Modern Chinese as Tujue. The Ashina clan migrated from Li-jien (modern Zhelai Zhai) to the Juan Juan seeking inclusion in their confederacy and protection from the prevalent dynasty.

[Linet]

You dont look Chinese now... do you :eyes ? Magic or biology? :chin:

[Danishmend]

Northern Kazakh steppe is a more likely candidate for the proto-Turkic urheimat, we were Eurasians at the start

How many Greeks are descended from Proto Indo-European horsemen by the way?

[wvwvw]

Northern Kazakh steppe is a more likely candidate for the proto-Turkic urheimat, we were Eurasians at the start

How many Greeks are descended from Proto Indo-European horsemen by the way?

First you have to prove that Pelasgians weren't Proto-Greeks or that they didn't speak Greek. They are the indigenous people of Greece and have always been for at least 7000 years.

[Linet]

Well probably so little that it can be considered non existend :chin: .....else we would look like mongols http://yoursmiles.org/hsmile/nation/h0344.gif....lets not forget the Asian elements prevail http://yoursmiles.org/hsmile/nation/h0326.gif....so it would take alot of European blood :rose: to erase the traces....you know, kind of what happened to you that you even changed race.....Asian->European/looking

[Scholarios]

First you have to prove that Pelasgians weren't Proto-Greeks or that they didn't speak Greek. They are the indigenous people of Greece and have always been for at least 7000 years.

You should prove Atalanteans and Liliputtans or gremlins didnt speak Greek too.

[Scholarios]

Northern Kazakh steppe is a more likely candidate for the proto-Turkic urheimat, we were Eurasians at the start

How many Greeks are descended from Proto Indo-European horsemen by the way?

You guys get yourself into this with your legendary capacity to label everything in West Asia Minor as " Anatolian" or " Roman". Pure selective propaganda.

[Danishmend]

First you have to prove that Pelasgians weren't Proto-Greeks or that they didn't speak Greek. They are the indigenous people of Greece and have always been for at least 7000 years.

Weren't they among the indigenous inhabitants of the peninsula before the arrival of the Indo-European speakers?

[Scholarios]

Weren't they among the indigenous inhabitants of the peninsula before the arrival of the Indo-European speakers?

Just local caveman assimilated by Greeks- but they are sacred because every 19th century nationalist got sponsored by western dilettantes by claiming to be them .

[wvwvw]

You should prove Atalanteans and Liliputtans or gremlins didnt speak Greek too.

"...Pelasgians, a Greek nation which did not came from elsewhere but we were born autochthonous" (Plutarchos Peri fyges 604D-E,13)

Homer says Pelasgians were Greek
In Iliad ii. 750 We read about THE PELASGIAN GREEKS
Two other passages (Iliad, ii. 681-684; xvi. 233-235) apply the epithet "Pelasgic" to a district called Argos about Mt Othrys in south Thessaly, and to Zeus of Dodona

The Thessalian Argos is the specific home of Hellenes and Achaeans, and Dodona is inhabited by Perrhaebians and Aenianes (Iliad, ii. 750) who are now, here described as Pelasgian Greeks
--Pelasgus king of Greek Thessaly (Iliad, ii. 681-684

Hecataeus makes Pelasgus king of Greek Thessaly (Iliad, ii. 681-684) Acusilaus applies this Homeric passage 2 the Peloponnesian Argos & engrafts the Hesiodic Greek Pelasgus, father of Greek Lycaon, into a Peloponnesian genealogy

According to Ephorus, "Pelasgian" simply means "prehistoric Greek,"

"This was the next Greek nation after the Pelasgians to come into Italy and to take up a common residence with the Aborigines, establishing itself in the best part of Rome"
(Dionysios Alikarnasseus-Roman Antiquities)

"I think it was the glory of the city which prepared them to be called after her, the Pelasgians, the Danaans & the Argeians and the other Greeks."
(Strabo G H VI 8)

Enough said!

[Scholarios]

"...Pelasgians, a Greek nation which did not came from elsewhere but we were born autochthonous" (Plutarchos Peri fyges 604D-E,13)

Homer says Pelasgians were Greek
In Iliad ii. 750 We read about THE PELASGIAN GREEKS
Two other passages (Iliad, ii. 681-684; xvi. 233-235) apply the epithet "Pelasgic" to a district called Argos about Mt Othrys in south Thessaly, and to Zeus of Dodona

The Thessalian Argos is the specific home of Hellenes and Achaeans, and Dodona is inhabited by Perrhaebians and Aenianes (Iliad, ii. 750) who are now, here described as Pelasgian Greeks
--Pelasgus king of Greek Thessaly (Iliad, ii. 681-684

Hecataeus makes Pelasgus king of Greek Thessaly (Iliad, ii. 681-684) Acusilaus applies this Homeric passage 2 the Peloponnesian Argos & engrafts the Hesiodic Greek Pelasgus, father of Greek Lycaon, into a Peloponnesian genealogy

According to Ephorus, "Pelasgian" simply means "prehistoric Greek,"

"This was the next Greek nation after the Pelasgians to come into Italy and to take up a common residence with the Aborigines, establishing itself in the best part of Rome"
(Dionysios Alikarnasseus-Roman Antiquities)

"I think it was the glory of the city which prepared them to be called after her, the Pelasgians, the Danaans & the Argeians and the other Greeks."
(Strabo G H VI 8)

Enough said!

Haven't we been over this like 50 times for god's sake?

Do you know how to analyze? You're just like the wog Turks claiming they are from Ancient Turanians living in Troy.

The sources aren't clear on who the Pelasgians are and are clearly CONTRADICTORY. They are as real λωτοφάγοι and slightly more real than Centaurs.

[Linet]

"...Pelasgians, a Greek nation which did not came from elsewhere but we were born autochthonous" (Plutarchos Peri fyges 604D-E,13)

Homer says Pelasgians were Greek
In Iliad ii. 750 We read about THE PELASGIAN GREEKS
Two other passages (Iliad, ii. 681-684; xvi. 233-235) apply the epithet "Pelasgic" to a district called Argos about Mt Othrys in south Thessaly, and to Zeus of Dodona

The Thessalian Argos is the specific home of Hellenes and Achaeans, and Dodona is inhabited by Perrhaebians and Aenianes (Iliad, ii. 750) who are now, here described as Pelasgian Greeks
--Pelasgus king of Greek Thessaly (Iliad, ii. 681-684

Hecataeus makes Pelasgus king of Greek Thessaly (Iliad, ii. 681-684) Acusilaus applies this Homeric passage 2 the Peloponnesian Argos & engrafts the Hesiodic Greek Pelasgus, father of Greek Lycaon, into a Peloponnesian genealogy

According to Ephorus, "Pelasgian" simply means "prehistoric Greek,"

"This was the next Greek nation after the Pelasgians to come into Italy and to take up a common residence with the Aborigines, establishing itself in the best part of Rome"
(Dionysios Alikarnasseus-Roman Antiquities)

"I think it was the glory of the city which prepared them to be called after her, the Pelasgians, the Danaans & the Argeians and the other Greeks."
(Strabo G H VI 8)

Enough said!

I liked it so much that i thought to copy it to have it here double :rose: ...

[Linet]

Haven't we been over this like 50 times for god's sake?

Do you know how to analyze? You're just like the wog Turks claiming they are from Ancient Turanians living in Troy.

The sources aren't clear on who the Pelasgians are and are clearly CONTRADICTORY. They are as real λωτοφάγοι and slightly more real than Centaurs.

Σσσσ :zip-lip: άσε μας να εκφραστούμε παλιοχαλάστρα.... :fhmm:

[Scholarios]

Σσσσ :zip-lip: άσε μας να εκφραστούμε παλιοχαλάστρα.... :fhmm:



Δεν "εκφράζει" τίποτα. Κάνει απλά " copy and paste".
Επίσης, κάνει όλους τους Έλληνες να φαίνονται φανατικοί και ηλίθιοι. Δεν υπάρχει καμία διαφορά ανάμεσα σε εκείνη και τους ακραίους Αλβανούς και Τούρκους εθνικιστές. Είναι τόσο ενοχλητικό. Συν το ότι αυτή κάνει απλά λάθος.

:shrug:

[Linet]

Δεν "εκφράζει" τίποτα. Κάνει απλά " copy and paste".
Επίσης, κάνει όλους τους Έλληνες να φαίνονται φανατικοί και ηλίθιοι. Δεν υπάρχει καμία διαφορά ανάμεσα σε εκείνη και τους ακραίους Αλβανούς και Τούρκους εθνικιστές. Είναι τόσο ενοχλητικό. Συν το ότι αυτή κάνει απλά λάθος.

:shrug:


Γιατί κάνει λάθος; Έβαλε παραπομπές...οι άλλοι που ξέρουν ποιοι ήταν οι Πελασγοί;

[wvwvw]

Haven't we been over this like 50 times for god's sake?

Do you know how to analyze? You're just like the wog Turks claiming they are from Ancient Turanians living in Troy.

The sources aren't clear on who the Pelasgians are and are clearly CONTRADICTORY. They are as real λωτοφάγοι and slightly more real than Centaurs.

Prove that Pelasgians didn't speak Greek or that they weren't Greek or forever shut up.

Who is Greek according to you? The Ionians, Achaians ?

Contrary to modern understanding, Herodotus was convinced that the Hellenes were not invaders, but descendants of Pelasgians:

"The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied."

That the Athenians were autochthonous was expressed mythically in the stories of Erechtheus and Erichthonius and was emphatically stated by Isocrates in Panegyric 23-5:

"For we did not win the country we dwell in by expelling others from it, or by seizing it when uninhabited, nor are we a mixed race collected together from many nations, but so noble and genuine is our descent, that we have continued for all time in possession of the land from which we sprang, being children of our native soil, and able to address our city by the same titles that we give to our nearest relations, for we alone of all the Hellenes have the right to call our city at once nurse and fatherland and mother."

The historian Ephorus preserves a passage from Hesiod that attests to a tradition of an aboriginal Pelasgian people in Arcadia. Nothing in the ancient discussion of the Pelasgians is inconsistent with the Greeks, at least the Athenians, being autochthonous. Greece has been inhabited at least since the Neolithic, and there is no reason to believe that the classical Greeks were not also genetic and cultural descendants from Pelasgians.

According to a number of classical quotes and modern studies, the Pelasgians were Hellenes (Greeks), and the direct ancestors of later Greek tribes.

The arguments supporting this connection are as follows:


That the term "barbarian" had a dual meaning. Aside from meaning "non-Hellenic," the term "barbarian" has been used by Greek tribes/city-states to deride other Greek tribes/city-states that were deemed unsophisticated in their use of the Hellenic language.

From this dual meaning, Herodotus did not imply that the Pelasgians were non-Hellenes when he described them and their language as "barbaric." Support for this argument is found within a passage where Herodotus deemed the Hellenes as a branch of the Pelasgians. Moreover, it was not an uncommon phenomenon for a Greek tribe to speak Greek crudely to the point where it was difficult for other Greeks to understand. So, when Herodotus (1.57) concludes that the Athenians changed language when they joined the Hellenic body, it means that they advanced linguistically, socially, and culturally from their Pelasgian forebears.

Herodotus (6.137) also discusses the expulsion of Pelasgians by the Athenians from Attica to Lemnos. However, this passage may be derived from an event whereby the Athenians expelled Pelasgian Boeotian refugees (closely related to them culturally and linguistically) to the Ionian colonies. Herodotus is also known for not distinguishing the difference between linguistically similar dialects and languages that are completely separate from Greek. As a result of this ambiguity, the language of the Pelasgians was "barbaric" in the sense that it was an unsophisticated form of Hellenic as opposed to being non-Hellenic.

That the autochthonous nature of the Athenians (an ancient belief to which Herodotus, Isocrates, Plutarch and others attest) implies they are descended from the autochthonous Pelasgians. The Athenians deemed themselves "true Hellenes" due to their well-developed society.

During the early 20th century, archaeological excavations conducted by the Italian Archaeological School and by the American Classical School on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites within Attica revealed Neolithic dwellings, tools, pottery, and sheep skeletons. All of these discoveries showed significant resemblances to the Neolithic discoveries made on the Thessalian acropolises in Sesklo and Dimini. These discoveries helped provide physical confirmation of ancient records that described the Athenians as the descendants of the Pelasgians (who were primarily the Neolithic inhabitants of Thessaly).

[Kiyant]

You dont look Chinese now... do you :eyes ? Magic or biology? :chin:

I dont think that Greeks have "Turkish" blood but the Göktürks were not Mongoloid like the Chinese more like Mongoloid + minor Caucasian in the east and Turanid in the west

[wvwvw]

Γιατί κάνει λάθος; Έβαλε παραπομπές...οι άλλοι που ξέρουν ποιοι ήταν οι Πελασγοί;

Το όνομα Έλληνες το αποκτήσαν οι Έλληνες από τον βασιλιά Έλληνα. Τα καταστροφικά γεγονότα του κατακλυσμού, πέρα από τις μεγάλες δυστυχίες που προξένησαν στους ανθρώπους, προκάλεσαν και κοινωνικές αλλαγές που έφεραν ρήγμα στους πελασγικούς φυλετικούς δεσμούς. Οι γιοι του επιζήσαντα βασιλιά της Φθιώτιδας Δευκαλίωνα, Έλληνας και Αμφικτύωνας, φαίνεται ότι αποσχίστηκαν από την πληγμένη Πελασγική ομοφυλία.

Ο Έλληνας ανέλαβε να δημιουργήσει ένα νέο έθνος από τα λείψανα του παλιού, ενώ ο Αμφικτύων ασχολήθηκε με την πολιτική οργάνωση του εγχειρήματος. Γι’ αυτό εξάλλου και από τότε, όλες οι ομοσπονδίες μεταξύ των Ελλήνων ονομάζονται Αμφικτιονίες. Ότι ο Έλληνας και οι δικοί του αποσχίστηκαν από την Πελασγική ομοφυλία φαίνεται και από την παρακάτω αναφορά του Ηροδότου:

«Το ελληνικό έθνος μιλούσε πάντα τη γλώσσα που μιλάει σήμερα. Στην αρχή, όταν αποσχίστηκε από τους Πελασγούς, ήταν μικρό και αδύναμο, αλλά η δύναμη του αυξήθηκε όταν προσχώρησαν άλλα έθνη, όπως οι Πελασγοί…» (Ηρόδοτος Α΄, 58).

«Γιατί εμείς που κατοικούμε σ’ αυτή την πόλη, δεν διώξαμε από δω τους κατοίκους ούτε τη βρήκαμε έρημη ούτε συγκεντρωθήκαμε πολλών εθνών μιγάδες και ήρθαμε να την καταλάβουμε.

Ο Έλληνας και όσοι Πελασγοί τον ακολούθησαν δεν ήταν εξαρχής αρκετά ισχυροί ώστε να επιβληθούν στους υπόλοιπους ομόφυλους τους. Η ελληνική πελασγική φυλή άρχισε να δυναμώνει αργότερα όταν και άλλοι Πελασγοί ενώθηκαν μαζί τους.

Οι γιοι του Έλληνα, Δώρος, Ξούθος και Αίολος ήταν εκείνοι που ανέλαβαν να ολοκληρώσουν το πατρικό σχέδιο. Εκείνη την εποχή ο μόνος τόπος που ονομαζόταν Ελλάς ήταν η πόλη Ελλάς στην Φθία της Θεσσαλίας:

«Αυτοί που θεωρούν ότι μιλάμε για πόλη, οι κάτοικοι των Φαρσάλων, δείχνουν στα εξήντα στάδια από την πόλη τους μια ερειπωμένη πόλη που πιστεύουν ότι είναι η Ελλάς με δύο κρήνες κοντά, τη Μεσσηίδα και την Υπέρεια. Οι Μελιταιείς πάλι, μακριά από τον οικισμό τους κάπου δέκα στάδια λένε ότι χτίστηκε η Ελλάς μετά τον Ενιπέα, τότε που η πόλη τους λεγόταν Πύρρα, ενώ από την Ελλάδα που βρισκόταν στα πεδινά ήρθαν οι Έλληνες και έμειναν στην κώμη τους. Απόδειξη έχουν στην αγορά τους τον τάφο του Έλληνα, γιο του Δευκαλίωνα και της Πύρρας» (Στράβων, «Γεωγραφικά», Θ΄, V, 6).

Στην πορεία του χρόνου οι κάτοικοι της πόλης Ελλάδας άρχισαν να επεκτείνουν την κυριαρχία τους και στη γύρω περιοχή. Στα χρόνια του τρωικού πολέμου, η Ελλάς είχε τα παρακάτω σύνορα, τα οποία ορίζει ο Στράβων στηριζόμενος στον Όμηρο:

«Όσο για το Πελασγικό Άργος, δέχονται ότι κάποτε ήταν θεσσαλική πόλη χτισμένη κοντά στη Λάρισα. Σήμερα δεν υπάρχει. Άλλοι πάλι δεν τη θεωρούν πόλη, αλλά πιστεύουν ότι εννοεί την ίδια τη θεσσαλική πεδιάδα που λέγεται έτσι, επειδή την ονόμασε ο Άβας, που ήρθε και έζησε εδώ από το Άργος. Για τη Φθία, μερικοί νομίζουν ότι είναι η ίδια χώρα με την Ελλάδα και την Αχαΐα. Αυτές αποτελούν το άλλο, το νότιο, από τα δύο μέρη στα οποία ήταν χωρισμένη η Θεσσαλία. Φαίνεται πάντως ότι ο ποιητής θεωρούσε δύο χώρες τη Φθία και την Ελλάδα, αφού λέει:
»Κατοικούσαν Φθία και Ελλάδα.
»Πρόκειται για δύο όταν λέει:
»Κι έπειτα, από την ευρύχωρη Ελλάδα,
έφτασα στη Φθία.
»Καθώς και ότι:
»Πολλές γυναίκες της Αχαΐας βρίσκονται σε Ελλάδα και Φθία.

»Εδώ ο ποιητής εννοεί δύο, αλλά δεν είναι ξεκάθαρο αν εννοεί πόλεις ή χώρες. Οι μεταγενέστεροι μιλώντας για την Ελλάδα ως χώρα λένε πως εκτείνεται από την Παλαιοφάρσαλο στις Φθιώτιδες Θήβες. (Στην περιοχή βρίσκεται το Θετίδειο ότι κι αυτό το μέρος της πρόκειται για χώρα του Αχιλλέα)» (Στράβων, «Γεωγραφικά», V, 6).

Στις γενιές που ακολούθησαν οι απόγονοι του Έλληνα έγιναν ιδιαίτερα επιθετικοί και επεκτατικοί. Όσοι δε Πελασγοί βρίσκονταν πλέον υπό την κυριαρχία τους έπαιρναν τα ονόματα των φατριών υπό των οποίων υπάγονταν. Έτσι, έχουμε:

Δωριείς, όσοι ακολουθούσαν τους απογόνους του Δώρου, Αιολείς, όσοι ακολούθησαν και όσοι υπάχθηκαν στην φατρία του Αιόλου και Ίωνες και Αχαιοί αντίστοιχα από τους γιους του Ξούθου, Ίωνα και Αχαιό. Ο Ηρόδοτος επιβεβαιώνει τον συλλογισμό μας και αναφέρει χαρακτηριστικά για τους Ίωνες και τους Αιολείς:

«Αυτοί οι Ίωνες, όσο καιρό κατοικούσαν στην Πελοπόννησο, την περιοχή που σήμερα ονομάζεται Αχαΐα, πριν ακόμα πάνε εκεί ο Δαναός και ο Ξούθος, ονομάζονταν Πελασγοί Αιγιαλείς, σύμφωνα με τα λεγόμενα των Ελλήνων, οι οποίοι, όμως, αναγκάστηκαν να αλλάξουν το όνομα τους σε Ίωνες από το γιο του Ξούθου, τον Ίωνα.

»Οι νησιώτες είχαν δώσει δεκαεπτά πλοία και ήταν και αυτοί οπλισμένοι όπως και οι Έλληνες. Και αυτοί αρχικά ήταν έθνος πελασγικό και έγιναν ιωνικό πολύ αργότερα, όπως ακριβώς και οι Ίωνες, που ίδρυσαν τη Δωδεκάπολη, που είχαν έλθει από την Αθήνα. Οι Αιολείς έδωσαν εξήντα πλοία και είχαν και αυτοί τον ίδιο οπλισμό με τους Έλληνες και παλαιότερα λέγονταν και αυτοί Πελασγοί, όπως αναφέρουν οι Έλληνες» (Ηρόδοτος, Ζ΄, 94-95).

[mourtsouflos]

Τα ελληνικά είναι ινδοευρωπαϊκή γλώσσα και οι αρχικοί τους ομιλητές ήρθαν απέξω - αυτά δεν τα αμφισβητεί κανείς στον επιστημονικό χώρο. Επίσης κανείς σήμερα δεν υποστηρίζει χρονολογία άφιξης των πρώτων ελληνόφωνων προγενέστερη του 3000 π.Χ. Ακόμη και ο Κόλιν Ρένφριου, που έλεγε στην αρχή για 6000 π.Χ., έχει αναθεωρήσει την υπόθεσή του. Διαβάστε εδώ πιο αναλυτικά και ψάξτε και το εμπεριστατωμένο βιβλίο του Γιαννόπουλου:

http://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/28/%CF%80%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B5-%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%AE%CE%BB%CE%B8%CE%B1%CE%BD-%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CF%89%CF%84%CE%BF-%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BB/

[Linet]

Το όνομα Έλληνες το αποκτήσαν οι Έλληνες από τον βασιλιά Έλληνα. Τα καταστροφικά γεγονότα του κατακλυσμού, πέρα από τις μεγάλες δυστυχίες που προξένησαν στους ανθρώπους, προκάλεσαν και κοινωνικές αλλαγές που έφεραν ρήγμα στους πελασγικούς φυλετικούς δεσμούς. Οι γιοι του επιζήσαντα βασιλιά της Φθιώτιδας Δευκαλίωνα, Έλληνας και Αμφικτύωνας, φαίνεται ότι αποσχίστηκαν από την πληγμένη Πελασγική ομοφυλία.

Ο Έλληνας ανέλαβε να δημιουργήσει ένα νέο έθνος από τα λείψανα του παλιού, ενώ ο Αμφικτύων ασχολήθηκε με την πολιτική οργάνωση του εγχειρήματος. Γι’ αυτό εξάλλου και από τότε, όλες οι ομοσπονδίες μεταξύ των Ελλήνων ονομάζονται Αμφικτιονίες. Ότι ο Έλληνας και οι δικοί του αποσχίστηκαν από την Πελασγική ομοφυλία φαίνεται και από την παρακάτω αναφορά του Ηροδότου:

«Το ελληνικό έθνος μιλούσε πάντα τη γλώσσα που μιλάει σήμερα. Στην αρχή, όταν αποσχίστηκε από τους Πελασγούς, ήταν μικρό και αδύναμο, αλλά η δύναμη του αυξήθηκε όταν προσχώρησαν άλλα έθνη, όπως οι Πελασγοί…» (Ηρόδοτος Α΄, 58).

«Γιατί εμείς που κατοικούμε σ’ αυτή την πόλη, δεν διώξαμε από δω τους κατοίκους ούτε τη βρήκαμε έρημη ούτε συγκεντρωθήκαμε πολλών εθνών μιγάδες και ήρθαμε να την καταλάβουμε.


Κοίτα, ξέρουμε ότι έγινε κατακλυσμός, τα υπόλοιπα όμως και τις λεπτομέρειες τα συμπλήρωσε η μυθολογία....

[wvwvw]

Τα ελληνικά είναι ινδοευρωπαϊκή γλώσσα και οι αρχικοί τους ομιλητές ήρθαν απέξω - αυτά δεν τα αμφισβητεί κανείς στον επιστημονικό χώρο. Επίσης κανείς σήμερα δεν υποστηρίζει χρονολογία άφιξης των πρώτων ελληνόφωνων προγενέστερη του 3000 π.Χ. Ακόμη και ο Κόλιν Ρένφριου, που έλεγε στην αρχή για 6000 π.Χ., έχει αναθεωρήσει την υπόθεσή του. Διαβάστε εδώ πιο αναλυτικά και ψάξτε και το εμπεριστατωμένο βιβλίο του Γιαννόπουλου:

http://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2013/11/28/%CF%80%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B5-%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%AE%CE%BB%CE%B8%CE%B1%CE%BD-%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CF%89%CF%84%CE%BF-%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BB/

Αν πας και ακόμη πιο πίσω μιλούσαμε τη γλώσσα του Neanderthals. Αυτό δε κάνει τους πελασγούς λιγότερο αυτόχθονους Έλληνες

[Proto-Shaman]

Do you know how to analyze? You're just like the wog Turks claiming they are from Ancient Turanians living in Troy.
Western scholars claimed that, not Turks btw. Even the term "Turanian" is a western job, originally intended to cover up "Ural–Altaic race".

[Scholarios]

Prove that Pelasgians didn't speak Greek or that they weren't Greek or forever shut up.



I understand you are used to reading mostly Wikipedia and trash like DaVinci Code, so I'll reiterate again:

The Pelasgians is a generic term for all peoples who inhabited the Greek peninsula before the Greek-speaking people arrived. Their definition changes over time- at one point being considered non-Greek and other times being considered 'Greek'. Different authors not only have different opinions about who or what was a Pelasgian, but also their relationship to neighboring peoples.

The pre-Greek substratum in Greece that contains suffixes like inthos and ssos was left behind in toponyms in late prehistory and beginning of the Bronze Age. It matches pretty well with Anatolian dialect features like -nd and -ss found in Anatolian languages in the Classical Period. Especially the Luwians, who we all know, Greeks they were not.

What you are talking about here is mythology- not history. The Greeks changed their geneaology often and it doesn't directly reflect reality always. Furthermore, they were quite aware that they were heterogeneous. (Something lost on 21st Century racists influenced by fake genetic nationalism from North Europe). Their ideas changed and they were aware of it- we can't take that for evidence.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FHCS_zyEkiFtKnPdL8x6nsDhCU7CE4iB6bzhQ75F0ZQ=w938-h289-no

Greeks And Pre-Greeks, Aegean Prehistory and Greek Heroic Tradition: Margalit Finkleburg

Now since you a master of Wikipedia, tell me what does Herodotus say about who were these "Pelasgians"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

2 points settled; Pelasgians were not Greeks, Southwest Asian influence in Greek genetics comes from Pre-Turkish people (and pre-Greek people as well)

[mourtsouflos]

Αν πας και ακόμη πιο πίσω μιλούσαμε τη γλώσσα του Neanderthals. Αυτό δε κάνει τους πελασγούς λιγότερο αυτόχθονους Έλληνες

Όσοι ζούσαν στην Ελλάδα (Πελασγοί ή οτιδήποτε άλλο) πριν από το 2.500-3.000 π.Χ., δεν μιλούσαν ελληνικά και θεωρούνται όλοι Προέλληνες. Από κει και πέρα, είναι βέβαιο ότι οι μεταγενέστεροι Έλληνες είχαν πολύ προελληνικό αίμα (της εξελληνισμένης πλειοψηφίας), οπότε με αυτή την έννοια μπορούν να θεωρηθούν αυτόχθονες. Αλλά αυτό δεν αλλάζει το γεγονός ότι τα ελληνικά πρωτομιλήθηκαν στην Ελλάδα από μη αυτόχθονα φύλα.

[wvwvw]

The pre-Greek substratum in Greece that contains suffixes like inthos and ssos was left behind in toponyms in late prehistory and beginning of the Bronze Age. It matches pretty well with Anatolian dialect features like -nd and -ss found in Anatolian languages in the Classical Period. Especially the Luwians, who we all know, Greeks they were not.

Prove that this substratum does not pre-date Pelasgians. We already know that Myceaneans spoke Greek and that Greeks "never changed their speech" and that is part of the "Pelasgic branch"

According to Greek writers Pelasgians were Greeks, ancestors of the people of Ancient Greeks, and considered themselves autochthonus to Greece.

By *THAT* time they considered themselves Greeks. They were the first to call themselves Greeks, (Hellenes) they were part of the Greek ethnogenesis.

Linear A script precedes classical Greece by thousand of years. Again: how far back in time do you have to go to consider someone Greek? 3000 years? 6000? 100,000??

The people that pre-dated Pelasgians never been part of the Greek ethnos nor do we have any script such as Linear A and B that prove Greek was spoken back then. But, we have ample proof that show pelasgians were proto-greeks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IccGFdbty4Y

[HellLander87]

There is a chance Pelasgians spoke an etruscan like language.Thucydides calls them Tyrseno-Pelasgians.Also etruscan-like writings were found at limnos.
For what it's worth some Pelasgian groups survived well into classical years at the time of Peloponnesian War.

[wvwvw]

Όσοι ζούσαν στην Ελλάδα (Πελασγοί ή οτιδήποτε άλλο) πριν από το 2.500-3.000 π.Χ., δεν μιλούσαν ελληνικά και θεωρούνται όλοι Προέλληνες. Από κει και πέρα, είναι βέβαιο ότι οι μεταγενέστεροι Έλληνες είχαν πολύ προελληνικό αίμα (της εξελληνισμένης πλειοψηφίας), οπότε με αυτή την έννοια μπορούν να θεωρηθούν αυτόχθονες. Αλλά αυτό δεν αλλάζει το γεγονός ότι τα ελληνικά πρωτομιλήθηκαν στην Ελλάδα από μη αυτόχθονα φύλα.

Μήπως θεωρείς και τους Μυκηναίους προ-Έλληνες; Γιατί οι πελασγοί των κλασικών χρόνων απογονοί τους ήταν

In the late 1st century BCE Dionysios of Halikarnassos wrote in "Roman Antiquities", Book 1.17: "for the Pelasgians, too, were an Hellenic nation originally from the Peloponnesos" (ἦν γὰρ δὴ καὶ τὸ τῶν Πελασγῶν γένος Ἑλληνικὸν ἐκ Πελοποννήσου τὸ ἀρχαῖον).

Mε αυτή τη λογική και οι Ιλλύριοι, και οι Θράκες και οι Κέλτες όλοι είχαν αναμειχθεί με κάποιους προηγούμενους και εκείνοι με τη σειρά τους το ίδιο, μέχρι που φτάνουμε στην εποχή που αναμειχθείκαμε όλοι μας με νεάντερνταλς και χόμο σάπιενς.

[Vias]

Τα ελληνικά είναι ινδοευρωπαϊκή γλώσσα και οι αρχικοί τους ομιλητές ήρθαν απέξω - αυτά δεν τα αμφισβητεί κανείς στον επιστημονικό χώρο.


ουτε καν

[Linet]

Δηλαδή η γλώσσα μας δεν έχει αλλάξει από την εποχή του Ομήρου (δεν μιλάμε για συντακτικό αλλά για λεξιλόγιο) αλλά μόλισ το 2.500 πΧ μιλούσαμε άλλη γλώσσα; Πόσο λάθος ακούγεται αυτό; Επίσης ξεχνάτε τη Μινωική γλώσσα; Ξεχνάτε ότι η γραμική Β' που από όλους θεωρούνταν ξένη γλώσσα/μη Ελληνικά άπο όλους και που ήταν ο λόγος που θεωρούσαν του Μινωίτες μη Έλληνες τελικά μεταφράστηκε και είναι Ελληνική; Δηλαδή πότε προλάβαμε και αλλάξαμε γλώσσα; Πότε από τα ινδοευρωπαικά το γυρίσαμε στα Ελληνικά και που ήμασταν όταν μιλούσαμε αυτά τα ,εκτός Ελληνικού χώρου, Ελληνικα;

Η Μινωίτες έχουν έναν πολιτισμό από το 2.500πΧ μέχρι την καταστροφή τους το 1600πΧ....και μιλούσαν Ελληνικά....χρονικά λοιπόν αυτά που λέτε δεν στέκουν....

[wvwvw]

Δηλαδή η γλώσσα μας δεν έχει αλλάξει από την εποχή του Ομήρου (δεν μιλάμε για συντακτικό αλλά για λεξιλόγιο) αλλά μόλισ το 2.500 πΧ μιλούσαμε άλλη γλώσσα; Πόσο λάθος ακούγεται αυτό; Επίσης ξεχνάτε τη Μινωική γλώσσα; Ξεχνάτε ότι η γραμική Β' που από όλους θεωρούνταν ξένη γλώσσα/μη Ελληνικά άπο όλους και που ήταν ο λόγος που θεωρούσαν του Μινωίτες μη Έλληνες τελικά μεταφράστηκε και είναι Ελληνική; Δηλαδή πότε προλάβαμε και αλλάξαμε γλώσσα; Πότε από τα ινδοευρωπαικά το γυρίσαμε στα Ελληνικά και που ήμασταν όταν μιλούσαμε αυτά τα ,εκτός Ελληνικού χώρου, Ελληνικα;

Η Μινωίτες έχουν έναν πολιτισμό από το 2.500πΧ μέχρι την καταστροφή τους το 1600πΧ....και μιλούσαν Ελληνικά....χρονικά λοιπόν αυτά που λέτε δεν στέκουν....

Λινέτ οι Ίωνες ήταν περήφανοι για την αυτοχθονία τους και την πελασγική καταγωγή τους και ακόμη πιο περήφανοι να αποκαλούνε τους εαυτούς τους Έλληνες. Από που κί´ως που δεν ήταν λοιπόν οι πελασγοί έλληνες;

[Peyrol]

The Germans say: "Griechen sind Türken, die sich für Italiener halten". So, Greeks are Turks who claim to be Italians. :P

What is supposed to be? That turkish and greek immigrants like to pass themseles as italians in Germany?

[wvwvw]

What is supposed to be? That turkish and greek immigrants like to pass themseles as italians in Germany?

He also said that Italians are Greeks who claim to be French, meaning that Italians don't like being compared to Greeks, Greeks to Turks, Turks to Arabs and so on.

(Noone likes his country to be compared to a less advanced country)

[Peyrol]

He also said that Italians are Greeks who claim to be French, meaning that Italians don't like being compared to Greeks, Greeks to Turks, Turks to Arabs and so on

Lol why not?
That's a senseless statement.

[HellLander87]

Δηλαδή πότε προλάβαμε και αλλάξαμε γλώσσα; Πότε από τα ινδοευρωπαικά το γυρίσαμε στα Ελληνικά και που ήμασταν όταν μιλούσαμε αυτά τα ,εκτός Ελληνικού χώρου, Ελληνικα;


Η γλωσσα αλλαξε σταδιακα απο τοτε που ηρθαν οι ινδοευρωπεη πρωτο-Ελληνες.
Ηρθαν μαλλον απο καπου κοντα στην Ουκρανια.

[Scholarios]

Prove that this substratum does not pre-date Pelasgians. We already know that Myceaneans spoke Greek and that Greeks "never changed their speech" and that is part of the "Pelasgic branch"

According to Greek writers Pelasgians were Greeks, ancestors of the people of Ancient Greeks, and considered themselves autochthonus to Greece.



The people that pre-dated Pelasgians never been part of the Greek ethnos nor do we have any script such as Linear A and B that prove Greek was spoken back then. But, we have ample proof that show pelasgians were proto-greeks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IccGFdbty4Y

Oh for Christs sakes - what the hell is a Pelagsian then???? Who gives a damn about these people then if they are just Greeks? Which Pelagsians were Greek and which not because the sources contradict.

In the past some scholars tried to reconstruct the Pelasgians' history, sometimes separating the ‘real Pelasgians’ from the theoretical Pelasgians. But such attempts are methodologically flawed, for what we have about the Pelasgians is myths; and even when material reflecting historical reality did go into the making of myths, it was radically reshaped and restructured, again and again, to serve the changing and multiform needs of the mythological discourses. If we knew whether the Pelasgians had existed, and what their history had been, we could have compared those realities to the Greek representations, and seen how the two related. But as we do not, speculating about possibilities simply produces circular arguments and invites by default the free deployment of modern culturally determined assumptions and judgements

http://m.oxfordscholarship.com/mobile/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199253746.001.0001/acprof-9780199253746-chapter-7

Oxford Scholarship Online, (p.103) Herodotos (and others) on Pelasgians: Some Perceptions of Ethnicity


Christiane Sorvinou-Inwood

[HellLander87]

He also said that Italians are Greeks who claim to be French, meaning that Italians don't like being compared to Greeks, Greeks to Turks, Turks to Arabs and so on.

(Noone likes his country to be compared to a less advanced country)
or some want to be thought of belonging to a "more advanced" nationality.

[mourtsouflos]

Δηλαδή η γλώσσα μας δεν έχει αλλάξει από την εποχή του Ομήρου (δεν μιλάμε για συντακτικό αλλά για λεξιλόγιο) αλλά μόλισ το 2.500 πΧ μιλούσαμε άλλη γλώσσα; Πόσο λάθος ακούγεται αυτό;

Άλλο η γλωσσική αλλαγή (language change), οι αλλαγές δηλ. που συμβαίνουν σε μια γλώσσα που συνεχίζει να μιλιέται, και άλλο η γλωσσική μετακίνηση (language shift), δηλ. το να χάνεις τελείως την παλιά σου γλώσσα υιοθετώντας μια καινούργια. Δεν είναι καθόλου ασυνήθιστη η δεύτερη περίπτωση (και τα ελληνικά και τα λατινικά έφαγαν ένα σωρό γλώσσες).


Επίσης ξεχνάτε τη Μινωική γλώσσα; Ξεχνάτε ότι η γραμική Β' που από όλους θεωρούνταν ξένη γλώσσα/μη Ελληνικά άπο όλους και που ήταν ο λόγος που θεωρούσαν του Μινωίτες μη Έλληνες τελικά μεταφράστηκε και είναι Ελληνική;

Η μυκηναϊκή Γραμμική Β αποκρυπτογραφήθηκε ως ελληνική, όχι η μινωική Γραμμική Α. Για την ακρίβεια, το πρόβλημα με τη Γραμμική Β λύθηκε όταν εγκαταλείφθηκε η θεωρία ότι αναπαριστούσε την ίδια (μινωική) γλώσσα της Γραμμικής Α. Μέχρι τότε αποτύχαιναν οι αποκρυπτογραφήσεις επειδή προσπαθούσαν να ταιριάξουν μία γλώσσα και στις δύο γραφές. Μπορείς να τα βρεις αυτά στη βιογραφία του Βέντρις ("Ο άνθρωπος που αποκρυπτογράφησε τη Γραμμική Β").

[Danishmend]

I think we should create a thread about Pelasgians

[denz]

Almost none. The Turkish governors took Greek (and Serb and Egyptian etc) wives by the bunch and they sent the kids to the capital city of the Empire where they'd become 'Turkified', aka Ottoman Muslims. The Greeks who had mixed with Turks are only accounted for in the late 19th century and the early 20th century in Asia Minor. And we don't know how many of them came back as Greek in the population exchange.

Your upteenth anti-Greek troll attempt is yet another failed one.

Hmm, you mean "raper" "mongols" Turks had no any pinky relation with greeks. So either Greeks were not attractive or Turks were not "raper" decide one pls

[Vias]

Hmm, you mean "raper" "mongols" Turks had no any pinky relation with greeks. So either Greeks were not attractive or Turks were not "raper" decide one pls


1) Raped Greek girls did not marry out of disgrace.
2) Raped Greek girls that got pregnant sent the offspring to Ottoman orphanages where they were educated as young Ottoman Muslims. And in most cases the raped girls' mother or father killed the baby.
3) Some wealthy Ottoman Turks picked Greek wives and then their children were raised as Turks and usually sent to a major Ottoman city to get educated.
4) Random poor Ottoman Turks (ie soldiers) did not marry Greek girls.

[denz]

1) Raped Greek girls did not marry out of disgrace.
2) Raped Greek girls that got pregnant sent the offspring to Ottoman orphanages where they were educated as young Ottoman Muslims. And in most cases the raped girls' mother or father killed the baby.
3) Some wealthy Ottoman Turks picked Greek wives and then their children were raised as Turks and usually sent to a major Ottoman city to get educated.
4) Random poor Ottoman Turks (ie soldiers) did not marry Greek girls.

Cmon, with my respect and take no offense, do you believe what you say. Considering, legal minorities were separated and lived like closed cells until 19th century of their religion and identity and kept recorded in government bodies (such as taxing purposes), your logic would only be examined in case of war.

I only agree for random poor Turk issue

[HERK]

Greeks are a pure race and there is no place for discussion. :D

[Graus]

The Germans say: "Griechen sind Türken, die sich für Italiener halten". So, Greeks are Turks who claim to be Italians. :P

Never heard that one. Would be a quite derogatory sentiment towards the Greeks if true, considering the low opinions we hold about Turks and Italians. I have met Turks trying to pass as Greeks but never the other way around, I wonder why that is...

[Musso]

What does it mean to have Turkish blood?

[Danishmend]

Never heard that one. Would be a quite derogatory sentiment towards the Greeks if true, considering the low opinions we hold about Turks and Italians. I have met Turks trying to pass as Greeks but never the other way around, I wonder why that is...
No you haven't

[Petros Houhoulis]

Greece has been for 500 years under Ottoman empire.Is there any info about inter ethnic mixing during that time.
What percentage do current Greeks have Turkish blood .

Discuss

Well, the modern Turks have ~13% real Turkish blood (from Central Asia)

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/anatolian-turks.html

I shall let you guess how much Turkish blood Greeks have!

[Danishmend]

Well, the modern Turks have ~13% real Turkish blood (from Central Asia)

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/anatolian-turks.html

I shall let you guess how much Turkish blood Greeks have!

Do you even read?

To obtain a more representative sampling from Central Asia, Kyrgyz samples (Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan) were genotyped and analysed.

They use Kyrgyz (who are 70% east eurasian) samples to determine the so-called Central Asian admixture in Turkey. It's like using Baltic samples to determine "real Greek blood" in Greece since it is said that early Greek speakers (and all early Indo-European speakers in general) resembled modern Baltic peoples. Outdated pseudo-science

[Graus]

No you haven't

Actually a few shop/restaurant owners do for economical reasons, because Greeks in general and Greek cusine in particular are way more respected here. And since the "Turkish cusine" is pretty much a bad rip off of the Greek one, they try to sell their products as the original.

[Danishmend]

Actually a few shop/restaurant owners do for economical reasons, because Greeks in general and Greek cusine in particular are way more respected here. And since the "Turkish cusine" is pretty much a bad rip off of the Greek one, they try to sell their products as the original.

Sure, that is why Balkanites use Turkish names for shared dishes (such as dolma, sarma, börek, kaymak etc) instead of Greek

[wvwvw]

Sure, that is why Balkanites use Turkish names for shared dishes (such as dolma, sarma etc) instead of Greek

Our cuisine is not similar. The spices, the flavors, the dishes are different. As for dolma it's not even popular, I haven't eaten it for years. Turkish cuisine has a middle eastern flavor

Even the Bulgarian cuisine is very different to Turkish

[Danishmend]

Our cuisine is not similar. The spices, the flavors, the dishes are different. As for dolma it's not even popular, I haven't eaten it for years. Turkish cuisine has a middle eastern flavor

Even the Bulgarian cuisine is very different to Turkish

Graus doesn't think so

[wvwvw]

Graus doesn't think so

There are tons of "Greek" restaurants owned by Arabs, Turks etc who pass their food as Greek. Turkish food is quite heavily spiced, lots of rice. it doesn't feel 'familiar' eating at a Turkish restaurant

[HellLander87]

There are tons of "Greek" restaurants owned by Arabs, Turks etc who pass their food as Greek. Turkish food is quite heavily spiced, lots of rice. it doesn't feel 'familiar' eating at a Turkish restaurant
Raine do you eat at turkish restaurants?Hypocritic traitor.;)

[Linet]

Η γλωσσα αλλαξε σταδιακα απο τοτε που ηρθαν οι ινδοευρωπεη πρωτο-Ελληνες.
Ηρθαν μαλλον απο καπου κοντα στην Ουκρανια.

Μάλιστα, οπότε το 2500 ήρθαμε από την Ουκρανία.....και το 2499 μιλούσαμε Ελληνικά....απόλυτα λογικό....Κι ακόμα πιο λογικό ότι η γλώσσα μας δεν συνδέεται και τόσο με αυτές τις περιοχές....γιατί αν συνδεόταν θα μιλούσαμε ίδια γλώσσα με τους Σκύθες και τους Σαρματούς....

[Linet]

Sure, that is why Balkanites use Turkish names for shared dishes (such as dolma, sarma, börek, kaymak etc) instead of Greek


Your cuisine, like your music, dances and architecture are all Greek copies and to be more exact byzantine Greek copies.....you came on horses, were nomads, learned to use oven by the occupied Greeks when you got Constantinoupolis and your food till then was meat that would be preserved under the saddles of your horses, along with anything your animals produced.....so dont spread stupidity....i had enough for one day....


Our cuisine is not similar. The spices, the flavors, the dishes are different. As for dolma it's not even popular, I haven't eaten it for years. Turkish cuisine has a middle eastern flavor

Even the Bulgarian cuisine is very different to Turkish

Κι' εσύ μην πετάς κοτσάνες, η κουζίνα τους είναι αντιγραφή από την Βυζαντινή κουζίνα. Δεν είχαν κουζίνα, δεν είχαν σταθερή διαμονή , δεν μαγείρευαν ούτε είχαν χρόνο να πλάθουν ντολμαδάκια.... που να βρούνε κληματόφυλλα;
.... Διάβασε λίγο τα χρονικά και τις περιγραφές της εποχής που έγινε η άλωση της Πόλης.

[Alphawolf]

What is supposed to be? That turkish and greek immigrants like to pass themseles as italians in Germany?

Yes, Greeks want to pass as Italians. :)

http://gutezitate.com/zitat/183322

[Alphawolf]

He also said that Italians are Greeks who claim to be French, meaning that Italians don't like being compared to Greeks, Greeks to Turks, Turks to Arabs and so on.

(Noone likes his country to be compared to a less advanced country)

Please stop lying. I didn't say that.

[Vias]

Cmon, with my respect and take no offense, do you believe what you say. Considering, legal minorities were separated and lived like closed cells until 19th century of their religion and identity and kept recorded in government bodies (such as taxing purposes), your logic would only be examined in case of war.

I only agree for random poor Turk issue

It's not a matter of agreement. I'm mentioning documented facts. Most are evident from Ottoman sources as well.

[wvwvw]

Never heard that one. Would be a quite derogatory sentiment towards the Greeks if true, considering the low opinions we hold about Turks and Italians. I have met Turks trying to pass as Greeks but never the other way around, I wonder why that is...

That's because he made that up. The original quote was "Turks are Arabs who pretend to be Greeks"

[wvwvw]

i heard that once. but it was a bit longer; "italians are greeks who claims to be french, greeks are turks who claims to be italians, turks are arabs who claims to be greeks" :D

[wvwvw]

Yes, Greeks want to pass as Italians. :)

http://gutezitate.com/zitat/183322

In your deluded Turkish dreams only. Stop projecting your complexes on Greeks

[Alphawolf]

In your deluded Turkish dreams only. Stop projecting your complexes on Greeks


"I like the Greeks, who are plausible rascals, - with all the Turkish vices, without their courage."


George Gordon Noel Byron (Werk: Brief vom 3.V.1810)

[wvwvw]

And your point is ??

Speaking of Greek courage:
Adolf Hitler:
"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.. " (From speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May 1941)

Winston Churchill:
"The word heroism I am afraid does not render the least of those acts of self-sacrifice of the Greeks, which were the defining factor in the victorious outcome of the common struggle of the nations, during WWII, for the human freedom and dignity. If it were not for the bravery of the Greeks and their courage, the outcome of WWII would be undetermined." (Paraphrased from one of his speeches to the British Parliament on 24 April 1941)

"Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes. Now we shall say: The heroes fight like Greeks." (From a speech he delivered from the BBC in the first days of the Greco-Italian war)

Joseph Vissarionovich Tzougasvili Stalin:
"I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not live long to thank the Greek People, whose resistance decided WWII." (From a speech of his broadcast by the Moscow radio station on 31 January 1943 after the victory of Stalingrad and the capitulation of marshal Paulus)

Charles de Gaul:
"I am unable to give the proper breadth of gratitude I feel for the heroic resistance of the People and the leaders of Greece." (From a speech of his to the French Parliament after the end of WWII)

Maurice Schumann Minister of the exterior of France 1969-1973, member of the French Academy 1974:
"Greece is the symbol of the tortured, bloodied but live Europe.. Never a defeat was so honorable for those who suffered it." (From a message of his he addressed from the BBC of London to the enslaved peoples of Europe on 28 April 1941, the day Hitler occupied Athens after Greece fought a 6-month war)

Moscow, Radio Station to Greece:
"You fought unarmed and won, small against big. We owe you gratitude, because you gave us time to defend ourselves. As Russians and as people we thank you." (When Hitler attacked the U.S.S.R.)

Georgy Constantinovich Zhoucov 1896-1974 Marshal of the Soviet Army:
"If the Russian people managed to raise resistance at the doors of Moscow, to halt and reverse the German torrent, they owe it to the Greek People, who delayed the German divisions during the time they could bring us to our knees." (Quote from his memoirs on WWII)

Benito Mussolini:
"The war with Greece proved that nothing is firm in the military and that surprises always await us." (From speech he delivered on 10/5/1941)

Sir Robert Antony Eden, Minister of War and the Exterior of Britain 1940-1945, Prime Minister of Britain 1955-1957:
"Regardless of what the future historians shall say, what we can say now, is that Greece gave Mussolini an unforgettable lesson, that she was the motive for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held the Germans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks, that she upset the chronological order of all German High Command's plans and thus brought a general reversal of the entire course of the war and we won." (Paraphrased from a speech of his to the British parliament on 24/09/1942)

Sir Harold Leofric George Alexander, British Marshal during WWII:
"It would not be an exaggeration to say that Greece upset the plans of Germany in their entirety forcing her to postpone the attack on Russia for six weeks. We wonder what would have been Soviet Union's position without Greece." (Paraphrased from a speech of his to the British parliament on 28 October 1941)

George VI, King of Great Britain 1936-1952:
"The magnificent struggle of Greece, was the first big turn of WWII" (Paraphrased from a speech of his to the parliament in May 1945)

Franklin Roosevelt, President of the United States of America:
"On the 28th of October 1940 Greece was given a deadline of three hours to decide on war or peace but even if a three day or three week or three year were given, the response would have been the same. The Greeks taught dignity throughout the centuries. When the entire world had lost all hope, the Greek people dared to question the invincibility of the German monster raising against it the proud spirit of freedom."
(Paraphrased from speech he delivered on 10/6/1943)

"The heroic struggle of the Greek people... against Germany 's attack, after she so thunderously defeated the Italians in their attempt to invade the Greek soil, filled the hearts of the American people with enthusiasm and moved their compassion." (Paraphrased from a speech of his on 25/04/1941)

NOTES:
On 10 April 1941, after the capitulation to Germany, the northern forts of Greece surrender. The Germans express their admirations to Greek soldiers, declare that they were honored and proud to have as their adversary such an army and request that the Greek commandant inspect the German army in a demonstration of honor and recognition! The German flag is raised only after the complete withdrawal of the Greek army. A German officer of the air force declared to the commander of the Greek Eastern Macedonia division group, lieutenant general Dedes that the Greek army was the first army on which the stuka fighter planes did not cause panic. "Your soldiers" he said, "instead of fleeing frantically, as they did in France and Poland, were shooting at us from their positions."


And here's a very old quote from ancient times:
AESCHYLUS: "BECAUSE ONLY WE (THE GREEKS), CONTRARY TO THE BARBARIANS, NEVER COUNT THE ENEMY IN BATTLE"

Here's a little history lesson on the Greeks in WWII. The Greeks resisted longer than any other country before being occupied by the Nazis.

DURATION OF RESISTANCE (in days):
Greece 219
Norway 61
France 43 (The superpower at the time)
Poland 30
Belgium 18
Holland 4
Yugoslavia 3
Denmark 0 (The Danes surrendered to Hitler's motorcyclist who was conveying Hitler's request to the Danish king for the crossing of the Nazi armies. The

Danish king indicating submission surrendered his crown to the motorcyclist)
Czechoslovakia 0
Luxenburg 0

TOTAL LOSES IN POPULATION PERCENTAGES:

Greece 10%
Soviet Union 2.8%
Holland 2.2%
France 2% (The superpower at the time)
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia 1.7%
Belgium 1.5%

[Linet]

"I like the Greeks, who are plausible rascals, - with all the Turkish vices, without their courage."


George Gordon Noel Byron (Werk: Brief vom 3.V.1810)

Lord Byron? The guy who died with the Greeks by the Turks :rip: ? Really :loco: ? Do you even know history :old: ? Or you need to me to tell you :1099:?

[wvwvw]

Finally, there is no shortage of quotes like this:


One of the tendencies of the Ottoman state was to lash out against the Christians under its rule. The tragedy of Christian communities under Turkish rule, as then-British Prime Minister William Gladstone saw it, was not “a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race.” He wrote of the Turks:

“They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. Wherever they went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law. — Yet a government by force can not be maintained without the aid of an intellectual element. — Hence there grew up, what has been rare in the history of the world, a kind of tolerance in the midst of cruelty, tyranny and rapine. Much of Christian life was contemptuously left alone and a race of Greeks was attracted to Constantinople which has all along made up, in some degree, the deficiencies of Turkish Islam in the element of mind.”

“The attitude of the Moslems toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves,” reported the British Vice Consul in Mosul (an Ottoman city in what is now Northern Iraq) a little later in 1909, “whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.” This, of course, is the old story of dhimmitude or the second-class citizenship of non-Moslems under Moslem rule.

The Ottomans lurched from outrage to outrage. Regular slaughters of Armenians in Bayazid (1877), Alashgurd (1879), Sassun (1894), Constantinople (1896), Adana (1909) and Armenia itself (1895-96) claimed a total of two hundred thousand lives, but they were only rehearsals for the genocide of 1915. The slaughter of Christians in Alexandria in 1881 was only a rehearsal for the artificial famine induced by the Turks in 1915-16 that killed over a hundred thousand Maronite Christians in Lebanon and Syria. So imminent and ever-present was the peril, and so fresh the memory of these events in the minds of the non-Moslems, that illiterate Christian mothers dated events as so many years before or after “such and such a massacre.” Across the Middle East, the bloodshed of 1915-1922 finally destroyed ancient Christian communities and cultures that had survived since Roman times—groups like the Jacobites (Syrian Orthodox), Nestorians (Iraqi Orthodox), and Chaldaeans (Iraqi Catholic).

[Linet]

Wow Raine, Go Go girl! http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/pozitive/m1257.gif

[Scholarios]

And your point is ??



TOTAL LOSES IN POPULATION PERCENTAGES:

Greece 10%
Soviet Union 2.8%
Holland 2.2%
France 2% (The superpower at the time)
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia 1.7%
Belgium 1.5%

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Human_losses_of_world_war_two_by_country.png

[Linet]

[IMG]board

Προσπαθείς να την βγάλεις λάθος;
Δεν είναι....το γεγονός ότι δεν είχαμε 10 εκατομμύρια κόσμο να χάσουμε γιατί τότε δεν θα υπήρχαμε, δεν αλλαζεί το γεγονός ότι χάσαμε το 1/10 του πλυθησμού μας. Αυτό το ήξερα κι εγώ πρωτού το πει η Raine. Βγάλε καλύτερα αυτό τον πίνακα, τώρα της πας κόντρα χωρίς λόγο παρά μόνο για να της την πεις και δημιουργείς και λάθος εντυπώσεις στους μη Έλληνες.

[HellLander87]

Balte posoi xathikan kai me ton emfylio.

[Linet]

Balte posoi xathikan kai me ton emfylio.

Αυτό όμως δεν αφορά τους ξένους, είναι για μεταξύ μας κατανάλωση.

[HellLander87]

Αυτό όμως δεν αφορά τους ξένους, είναι για μεταξύ μας κατανάλωση.
ποιος τους γαμαει τους ξενους.Βαλτε και τα σπιτια που μας εκαψαν οι πουσταραδες οι γερμανοι.

[kurtbitter]

Turkey also have less than %30 Turk blood.

[Scholarios]

Προσπαθείς να την βγάλεις λάθος;
Δεν είναι....το γεγονός ότι δεν είχαμε 10 εκατομμύρια κόσμο να χάσουμε γιατί τότε δεν θα υπήρχαμε, δεν αλλαζεί το γεγονός ότι χάσαμε το 1/10 του πλυθησμού μας. Αυτό το ήξερα κι εγώ πρωτού το πει η Raine. Βγάλε καλύτερα αυτό τον πίνακα, τώρα της πας κόντρα χωρίς λόγο παρά μόνο για να της την πεις και δημιουργείς και λάθος εντυπώσεις στους μη Έλληνες.

Hmm...Για να είμαι ειλικρινής, δεν με ενδιαφέρει ιδιαίτερα τι σκέφτονται οι αλλοδαποί. Παρόλα αυτά, αν είναι έξυπνοι, μπορούν να βρούνε τα ίδια στοιχεία.

Βλέπω τα ίδια γελοία γεγονότα να επαναλαμβάνονται αδικαιολόγητα. Τα δεδομένα της είναι εσφαλμένα. Όπως και να έχει, αυτή είναι μια διαδικτυακή κοινότητα για συζήτηση και διαβούλευση. Αν κάποιος νομίζει ότι κάνω λάθος, ας μου το πει παρακαλώ. Δεν είμαι τέλειος, αλλά συνήθως το παραδέχομαι. Απλά προσπαθώ να μην είμαι υπερβολικά προκατειλημμένος από εθνικισμό.

[Linet]

Γιατί εθνικισμό; Τι είπε; Ότι αντισταθήκαμε στον Β' Παγκόσμιο; Αυτό για σένα είναι εθνικισμός; Χάνεις την ουσία απλά για να της πας κόντρα. Έγραψε τόσα πράγματα τα οποία ήταν σωστά κι εσύ κόλλησες στο ότι άλλα κράτη έιχαν περισσότερους νεκρούς από την Ελλάδα.....οκ είχαν....άλλα και πάλι εμείς χάσαμε το 1/10 του πλυθησμού μας....οποτέ τι; Που το λάθος της;

[Scholarios]

Γιατί εθνικισμό; Τι είπε; Ότι αντισταθήκαμε στον Β' Παγκόσμιο; Αυτό για σένα είναι εθνικισμός; Χάνεις την ουσία απλά για να της πας κόντρα. Έγραψε τόσα πράγματα τα οποία ήταν σωστά κι εσύ κόλλησες στο ότι άλλα κράτη έιχαν περισσότερους νεκρούς από την Ελλάδα.....οκ είχαν....άλλα και πάλι εμείς χάσαμε το 1/10 του πλυθησμού μας....οποτέ τι; Που το λάθος της;


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Human_losses_of_world_war_two_by_country.png

[Linet]

Ναι..... Δεν σε πιάνω....δηλαδή; Ότι αυτό δείχνει λιγότερο από δέκα; Δείχνει 6? Πω πω...μιλάμε για καταστροφή....
Τότε καλά έκανες.....καλά έκανες και από όλο το ποστ της διάλεξες να δημιουργησεις εντύπώση αρνητική για μία λεπτομέρεια....Είσαι οκ...

[Scholarios]

Ναι..... Δεν σε πιάνω....δηλαδή; Ότι αυτό δείχνει λιγότερο από δέκα; Δείχνει 6? Πω πω...μιλάμε για καταστροφή....
Τότε καλά έκανες.....καλά έκανες και από όλο το ποστ της διάλεξες να δημιουργησεις εντύπώση αρνητική για μία λεπτομέρεια....Είσαι οκ...

Well, when I see WWII statistics about Greece and then quotes from Hitler praising the Greeks my eyes just roll... and then coming from "you know who"...

[Graus]

Yes, Greeks want to pass as Italians. :)

http://gutezitate.com/zitat/183322

Why would anyone try to pass as a group which is still despised in major parts of the German population? The Greek culture was always more revered here than the Italian one. And those sentiment doesnt only exist since the extreme potrayal of Italian cowardice and selfishness in the two world wars, which certainly amplified it but the strong preference and admiration for Greek culture was always there.

[Linet]

Well, when I see WWII statistics about Greece and then quotes from Hitler praising the Greeks my eyes just roll... and then coming from "you know who"...

Γιατί μου απαντάς ξαφνικά στα Αγγλικά;
....οκ....
He praised our bravery, the same way as the allies did....in the end we were the nation that succeeded the first win against axis in WW2.

[Queen B]

Εγώ για να καταλάβω? Τι κάνουμε? Διαγωνισμό ποιος είχε τους περισσότερους νεκρούς, και όποιος τους είχε κερδίζει?
ή μας ενοχλεί εαν κάποιος θεωρεί αξιοπρόσεκτη την γεναιότητα μας.

[Geni]

we have all "do neighbours blood" , where say not is 1 idiot...is 1 pure human :rolleyes::taped-shut::lol:

[Linet]

we have all "do neighbours blood" , where say not is 1 idiot...is 1 pure human :rolleyes::taped-shut::lol:

I am pure :angel: ....http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/258/d/d/la_hoplite__greek__by_kitlightning-d6meigm.gif

[Geni]

I'm not talking about you Aphrodite, I speak of simple mortals like us..

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

I am pure :angel: ....http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/258/d/d/la_hoplite__greek__by_kitlightning-d6meigm.gif

cool.

W:confused:ha:(ts your ged:cool:ma:bored:tch kit num:thumb001::bored::mad:be:p:rolleyes:r?

[Vias]

ποιος τους γαμαει τους ξενους.Βαλτε και τα σπιτια που μας εκαψαν οι πουσταραδες οι γερμανοι.

...και τα παιδια που εξορισαν οι αριστεροι στις κομμουνιστικες χωρες ;)

[Dianatomia]

Do you even read?


They use Kyrgyz (who are 70% east eurasian) samples to determine the so-called Central Asian admixture in Turkey. It's like using Baltic samples to determine "real Greek blood" in Greece since it is said that early Greek speakers (and all early Indo-European speakers in general) resembled modern Baltic peoples. Outdated pseudo-science

I am not sure how to interpret your point. Indeed, we can agree on one thing. The Turks who left Central Asia were somewhat different from the Turks who arrived
at the gates of Constantinople. You have a point there. Most sultans i.e. had a lot of local ancestry. But at the same time Turks as a whole cluster with Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, Iranians or in other terms somewhere between Greece and Iran/Syria. This means that most of the descendants of modern Turks hail from those localities. They are mostly indigenous mixed with some newly arrived elements. There is no way around this.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/West_Central_Eurasia.png

[wildfires]

LOL!

[Danishmend]

I am not sure how to interpret your point. Indeed, we can agree on one thing. The Turks who left Central Asia were somewhat different from the Turks who arrived
at the gates of Constantinople.
I agree


You have a point there. Most sultans i.e. had a lot of local ancestry.
Dynasties (be it Ottoman, Habsburg etc) cannot be used as a reference for ordinary citizens since they were heavily mixed as a result of political/&other reasons




But at the same time Turks as a whole cluster with Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, Iranians
We don't cluster with Armenians or Kurds (I can't even see Kurds on the graph anyway). It's just the shared Caucasus component that places Adygei, Turks, Georgians, Iranians near each other. Same goes for South Italians, Greeks and Jews (shared East med component)


or in other terms somewhere between Greece and Iran/Syria
Syria? There is no 'Syria' on the graph, even if they were, they would cluster with Druze. Greeks are somewhere between Levantines (Druze) and Italians, does it make you a mixture of these two population? Surely you don't know how to analyse these results

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/West_Central_Eurasia.png[/QUOTE]

[wvwvw]

Most Greeks cluster with Southern Italians, not between Italians and Druze. :rolleyes: Cypriots are close to Druzes, but still they form their own cluster:

http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p458062/Full_20120905082752BGA3.png

Plenty of Turkish posters have posted their results and many come out as pure Armenians. (see orangepulp's results)
Others score a lot of East Asian if they come from places other than Eastern Turkey.

Point is your top 20 populations are always Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, assyrians etc

[Danishmend]

Most Greeks cluster with Southern Italians, not between Italians and Druze. :rolleyes: Cypriots are close to Druzes, but still they form their own cluster:
How about Cypriot Greeks in pca plot? Don't you count them as Greek?



Plenty of Turkish posters have posted their results and many come out as pure Armenians. (see orangepulp's results)
Others score a lot of East Asian if they come from places other than Eastern Turkey.
Not "many", I've seen too many results and only those from Northeast Anatolia (including Pontus Greeks and Eastern Black Sea Turks) tend to come out as Armenians since there is no other reference population to separate them from Armenians

[wvwvw]

How about Cypriot Greeks in pca plot? Don't you count them as Greek?


Not "many", I've seen too many results and only those from North East Anatolia (including Pontus Greeks and Eastern Black Sea Turks) tend to come out as Armenians since there is no other reference population to seperate them from Armenians

I cluster with Tuscans and so do MANY Greeks. They cluster from Sicilian to Tuscan just a bit east of them. (and that takes into account Pontic or Anatolian ancestry)

There's no such thing as Pontic Greek or Anatolian Greek anymore, they have been absorbed into the general population and they have always been a minority of the Greek population to begin with.

Nowadays a Greek with Pontic ancestry might plot as Southern, Northern, Eastern, or Cretan Jew, and there's no separate category for them.

[wvwvw]

Islamized Pontics or Armenofied and Georgified Pontics that live outside of Greece do not count as Pontic Greeks. An islamized Pontic Greek that lives in Turkey and speaks Turkish have very little in common nowadays with Pontic Greeks that have lived in Greece for the past 100 years.

I don't consider the Islamized Muslim Greeks that live in pontus as Greeks anymore.

[Danishmend]

I cluster with Tuscans and so do MANY Greeks. They cluster from Sicilian to Tuscan just a bit east of them. (and that takes into account Pontic or Anatolian ancestry)
I know



There's no such thing as Pontic Greek or Anatolian Greek anymore, they have been absorbed into the general population and they have always been a minority of the Greek population to begin with.
So are Northeast Anatolian Turks



Nowadays a Greek with Pontic ancestry might plot as Southern, Northern, Eastern, or Cretan Jew, and there's no separate category for them.
I was referring to full-blooded Pontic Greeks

[wvwvw]

How about Cypriot Greeks in pca plot? Don't you count them as Greek?

They are culturally Greek but genetically they're only partially Greek. You also seem to forget that Cyprus is an Independent country much like Malta.

[Black Wolf]

Yes actually all modern Greeks are turkish, and all of their cultural innovations and discoveries can now be appropriated to turks :rolleyes:


I'm so sick of these threads :cool:

Same here they are idiotic.

[Alphawolf]

I know


So are Northeast Anatolian Turks


I was referring to full-blooded Pontic Greeks

There is no such thing as "full-blooded" Pontic Greeks. The majority are hellenized Anatolians.

[Danishmend]

There is no such thing as "full-blooded" Pontic Greeks. The majority are hellenized Anatolians.

Unmixed Pontic Greeks in Greece, that's what i meant. I know what they are

[wvwvw]

There is no such thing as "full-blooded" Pontic Greeks. The majority are hellenized Anatolians.

Pontic Greeks have largely Greek ancestry, of course they must have admixture from near by populations -that have accumulated over the centuries-, but, their Greekness is not disputed.

There are records from ancient times to present times that actually prove continuous Greek presence in Trapezunta Pontus. There are no records of Hellenization of foreign populations. Co-existance with near by populations does not equal Hellenization. You should read about the history of the region from ancient to byzantine times, to Ottoman times, it was always ruled by Greeks and the vast majority of the population always has been Greek

[Danishmend]

Pontic Greeks have largely Greek ancestry, of course they must have admixture from near by populations -that have accumulated over the centuries-, but, their Greekness is not disputed.

There are records from ancient times to present times that actually prove continuous Greek presence in Trapezunta Pontus. There are no records of Hellenization of foreign populations. Co-existance with near by populations does not equal Hellenization. You should read about the history of the region from ancient to byzantine times, to Ottoman times, it was always ruled by Greeks and the vast majority of the population always has been Greek

They seem to be genetically indigenous to the region

[wvwvw]

Unmixed Pontic Greeks in Greece, that's what i meant. I know what they are

Unmixed pontic Greeks look very Greek to me. Turks love to circulate on the internet the results of a Pontic "Greek" woman from Abhkasia, Georgia to show that Pontic Greeks are not Greeks.

I contacted that women on 23 and me and she barely could speak Greek. She lives in Norway. She acted very suspicious. Any Turkish troll can post his results on 23 and me and state they are Pontic Greek. There are Armenians and even Kurds living in Greece who can do the same. So don't show me some random questionable personas that don't even live in Greece and try to pass them as Pontic Greeks.

Show me peer to peer studies or a separate category for them in dodecad. Oh wait there is one for them, the so called azov greeks of Ukrainia, they score a bit more West Asian and Northern European. Still these people are not Greeks, they don't live in Greece and noone considers them Greeks, just like noone considers Greek that woman from Norway with roots in Abhkasia Georgia claiming to be Pontic Greek.

[Alphawolf]

They seem to be genetically indigenous to the region

That's the absolute truth. Anatolian Greeks are Hellenized Anatolians. That may explain the resemblance. Pontic Greeks also tend to look Caucasus/Anatolian too.

[wvwvw]

That's the absolute truth. Anatolian Greeks are Hellenized Anatolians. That may explain the resemblance. Pontic Greeks also tend to look Caucasus/Anatolian too.

Only a minority do. Frankly you look complete gypsies and Arabs to me, full of Anatolid types. I was watching scenes on tv from the accident in turkey and I couldn't tell whether you were Iraqis or not. Your gedmatch results may explain the resemblance.

[Danishmend]

Unmixed pontic Greeks look VERY Greek to me. Turks love to circulate on the internet the results of a Pontic "Greek" woman from Abhkasia, Georgia to show that Pontic Greeks are not Greeks.

I contacted that women on 23 and me and she barely could speak Greek. She lives in Norway. She acted very suspicious. Any Turkish troll can post his results on 23 and me and state they are Pontic Greek. There are Armenians and even Kurds living in Greece who can do the same. So don't show me some random questionable personas that don't even live in Greece and try to pass them as Pontic Greeks.

Show me peer to peer studies or a separate category for them in dodecad. Oh wait there is one for them, the so called azov greeks of Ukrainia, they score a bit more West Asian and Northern European. Still these people are not Greeks, they don't live in Greece and noone considers them Greeks, just like noone considers Greek that woman from Norway with roots in Abhkasia Georgia claiming to be Pontic Greek.


You are romanticizing things. People from Eastern Black Sea (whether they be Greek/Romeika or Turkish speaking) seem to be indigenous to the region, Turkic and Hellenic conquerors didn't not affect much their gene pool, that is quite normal since we are talking about an extremely isolated region full of mountainous areas. There are still some people speaking Romeika language in Trabzon for example and they are indistinguishable from the rest of the inhabitants

[PlanA]

Only a minority do. Frankly you look complete gypsies and Arabs to me, full of Anatolid types. I was watching scenes on tv from the accident in turkey and I couldn't tell whether you were Iraqis or not. Your gedmatch results may explain the resemblance.

So what? Is it a crime looking like Gypsies and Arabs?

[Casandrinos]

That's the absolute truth. Anatolian Greeks are Hellenized Anatolians. That may explain the resemblance. Pontic Greeks also tend to look Caucasus/Anatolian too.

Arab-Mongol inbreds have nothing to do with Greeks from Minor Asia who are identical to other Greeks.

You only wish to look like them so to upgrade your miserable gene pool.

[gültekin]

Only a minority do. Frankly you look complete gypsies and Arabs to me, full of Anatolid types. I was watching scenes on tv from the accident in turkey and I couldn't tell whether you were Iraqis or not. Your gedmatch results may explain the resemblance.
:dance::bump2::pound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gj2g-g8T0A
blablabla and reality

[Alphawolf]

Arab-Mongol inbreds have nothing to do with Greeks from Minor Asia who are identical to other Greeks.

You only wish to look like them so to upgrade your miserable gene pool.

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

Aglayin Yunanlar, bende aglayacagim :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOnrTs-WgEk

[Casandrinos]

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

Aglayin Yunanlar, bende aglayacagim :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOnrTs-WgEk

and your ingorance..

Ok those people are not Arab-Mongol

you have Georgian looking people also.

[Danishmend]

Arab-Mongol inbreds have nothing to do with Greeks from Minor Asia who are identical to other Greeks.

You only wish to look like them so to upgrade your miserable gene pool.

Why would anyone wish to be an east med Greek with wooly hair? Anatolian Rums are not identical to mainland Greeks anyway, the Karamanlides were christian Turks for example, and the rest was various Hellenized Anatolian groups

[gültekin]

:dance::bump2::pound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gj2g-g8T0A
blablabla and reality
this pleated skirt soldiers, the low birth rate in Greece does not surprise me :D
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/18/greece-birthrate-austerity-measures-healthcare

[Danishmend]

Hotheaded Greeks with lowbrow nature of posting, i'm afraid i must leave this thread

[wvwvw]

So what? Is it a crime looking like Gypsies and Arabs?

No just reality. However it is retarded that Turks are so obsessed with Greeks. We don't fucking care what you look like it's you and your Turkalbanian friends that pester us in EVERY Freaking thread, keen to prove we have no connection to our ancestors.

That retarded imbecile going by the name King Midas, and all Turks, don't miss a chance to vote that Fyromians have more right to Macedonia than Greeks, that Greeks have no connection to their ancestors, that Ottomans had more influence on Greeks than medieval byzantine Greeks or ancient Greeks

and yet these same people approrpiate the history of Hittites, Phrygians and every civilization under the sun with astonishing easiness despite having no cultural, linguistic, historical or genetic links to them whatsoever. You are truly disgusting people. Pathetic people keen to prove connections with the very people you massacred and genocided, full of complexes for being known as the inventors of genocide and torture champers.

To me you are retards no better than the worst thirld worlders, but i dont go out of my way to "prove" that. You do, you are worst wanna bees -i mean look at the sig of that retard El turco- I find it hilarious that he accuses others as wanna bees when he is the worst wanna be on these fora.

[Casandrinos]

Why would anyone wish to be an east med Greek with wooly hair? Anatolian Rums are not identical to mainland Greeks anyway, Karamanlides were christian Turks for example, and the rest was various Hellenized Anatolian groups

So he to not be an Arabid with Mongolian cheeks.

Karamanlides that came to Greece were the 1/15 of Anatolians and you can't know from where they descent.

Most Minor Asia Greeks are from the West coast anyway and look pretty much like islanders and other Greeks.

So i dont see any reason why you want to claim them except from self hate...

[Casandrinos]

Hotheaded Greeks with lowbrow nature of posting, i'm afriad i must leave this thread

You have a lot of confidence for a country that bans social media .

When you shall become Europanized we may treat you with respect.

[Scholarios]

Why would anyone wish to be an east med Greek with wooly hair? Anatolian Rums are not identical to mainland Greeks anyway, the Karamanlides were christian Turks for example, and the rest was various Hellenized Anatolian groups

About 150,000 of some 2 million Anatolian Greeks were karamanlides. True Asia Minor Greeks from your Izmir, Manisa, Cannakale etc were not so different than Greeks from Greece proper.

[wvwvw]

You have a lot of confidence for a country that bans social media .

When you shall become Europanized we may treat you with respect.

Expecting Turkey to become Europanized is like expecting the pig to sing...you waste your time and you annoy the pig at the same time

Anyway Turkey does not belong in Europe, Europanized or not. They belong with other third world countries Iraq, Iran, Pakistan etc (with whom they have excellent relationships btw)

[Danishmend]

So he to not be an Arabid with Mongolian cheeks.
Still better than a Greek with Berberid headshape and afro hair texture




Karamanlides that came to Greece were the 1/15 of Anatolians and you can't know from where they descent.

Most Minor Asia Greeks are from the West coast anyway and look pretty much like islanders and other Greeks.

So i dont see any reason why you want to claim them except from self hate...
I don't claim them, i'm simply stating a fact. Greek speaking Pontians are genetically native to their ancestral region. Karamanlides on the other hand were christian Turks (with Turkish as their mother tongue)




You have a lot of confidence for a country that bans social media .

Country=/=Government

[Casandrinos]

Expecting Turkey to become Europanized is like expecting the pig to sing...you waste your time and you annoy the pig at the same time

Anyway Turkey does not belong in Europe, Europanized or not. They belong with other third world countries Iraq, Iran, Pakistan etc (with whom they have excellent relationships btw)

I think in their attempt to connect themselves with the 1st world they try at least to make themselves look Europanized by adopting similar styling architecture technology etc.

But because they are a Mid.East-Central Asian country with a military rule (straight out from the Mongol hordes) they fail miserably so they try to pass other Europeans (Greeks and Balkanites) as Turks or Turkish influenced people.

That is the epitome of self-hate to me and lack of any cultural heritage.

[Danishmend]

I think in their attempt to connect themselves with the 1st world they try at least to make themselves look Europanized by adopting similar styling architecture technology etc.
You are dreaming. Where the hell did we connect ourselves with Greeks? How does stating the fact that Pontic Greeks are Hellenized locals make us Greek wannabes? On the contrary, people still use "yunan/rum tohumu (Greek seed)" as an insult, try to call a Turk "Greek" IRL, he will beat you to death. What makes your bankrupt country 1st world anyway?



But because they are a Mid.East-Central Asian cotry with a military rule (straight out from the Mongol hordes) they fail miserably so they try to pass other Europeans (Greeks and Balkanites) as Turks or Turkish influenced people.

That is the epitome of self-hate to me and lack of any cultural heritage.

We don't even view Greeks as proper Europeans, let alone connecting ourselves to them. You are like a cat looking into a mirror and seeing a lion. What a miserable clown. If you were a girl, i would call you "kezban"

kezban: a popular Turkish name for the girls whose behaviors are like bitchy, thinking themselves that they are pretty, wise and virtuous. however, they don't have any of these qualities. if you have girls around you like them, you can start calling them kezban.

[Casandrinos]

You are dreaming. Where the hell did we connect ourselves with Greeks? How does stating the fact that Pontic Greeks are Hellenized locals make us Greek wannabes? On the contrary, people still use "yunan/rum tohumu (Greek seed)" as an insult, try to call a Turk "Greek" IRL, he will beat you to death

Your folks say Asia Minor Greeks are all Hellenized. They don't specifisize on Pontians for whom you know shit about what they are.

Turks can't beat a pillow.

They only attack on groups as pure MENAs that they are.



We don't even view Greeks as proper Europeans, let alone connecting ourselves to them. You are like a cat looking into a mirror and seeing a lion

We don't even care bundala. Why should we bother with a country that has nothing to offer to us or the world?

Proper Europeans doesn't exist. You either are one or you're not.

And you know in which group you belong no matter how hard you try to hide it.

[wvwvw]

I think in their attempt to connect themselves with the 1st world they try at least to make themselves look Europanized by adopting similar styling architecture technology etc.

But because they are a Mid.East-Central Asian country with a military rule (straight out from the Mongol hordes) they fail miserably so they try to pass other Europeans (Greeks and Balkanites) as Turks or Turkish influenced people.

That is the epitome of self-hate to me and lack of any cultural heritage.

Their cultural heritage is the invention of genocide and gas chambers. (besides their most important invention the kebab) It is unfair that Hitler has been given credit for the gas chambers, the credit should go to Turds.

Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term genocide, did so in response to the systematic massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

The forgotten Holocaust: The Armenian massacre that inspired Hitler
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-479143/The-forgotten-Holocaust-The-Armenian-massacre-inspired-Hitler.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG

"...the Ottomans engineered the first primitive gas chambers by driving thousands of Armenians into rock caves and asphyxiating them by lighting bonfires at the entrances.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-1915-armenian-genocide-finding-a-fit-testament-to-a-timeless-crime-9241154.html


"Genocide denial is the last phase of genocide. It denounces the victims and rehabilitates the perpetrators. It also robs the victim's culture of all moral order ... I feel we Armenians are being stalked by the perpetrators 82 years later.

"We can't heal until there is a full confirmation of the Armenian genocide in the public discourse of world history."

[Trun]

Danishmend, remove the word "Bulgarian" and the Bulgarian flag from your miserable profile. It is an insult that an abomination like you uses them trying to be witty.

[HellLander87]

Cas and raine isn't it disgusting for you wasting time to argue with :puke:turks:puke:?
Personally I feel repulsion to even glance at turkish posters' avatars.

[Danishmend]

Your folks say Asia Minor Greeks are all Hellenized. They don't specifisize on Pontians for whom you know shit about what they are.
Yes, they are all Hellenized



Turks can't beat a pillow.

They only attack on groups as pure MENAs that they are.
History says the otherwise, tough guy. That is why you don't stop bitching about Turks, you are a bunch of losers. If it wasn't for British-French-Russian, you would still be our subjects kissing our feets




We don't even care bundala. Why should we bother with a country that has nothing to offer to us or the world?

Proper Europeans doesn't exist. You either are one or you're not.

And you know in which group you belong no matter how hard you try to hide it.

I don't even consider myself (or my nation) European so you can't use that card against me. It's better to be a proud Eurasian country than a black sheep of Europe (such as Greece)

[Trun]

Personally I feel repulsion to even glance at turkish posters' avatars.

I feel sick even with the thought that some of them are in an European cultural community. They should go to the Howling Wolf That Farts community discussing topics about Mongolia, Arabia - their cultural and racial brothers.

[StonyArabia]

So he to not be an Arabid with Mongolian cheeks.

Karamanlides that came to Greece were the 1/15 of Anatolians and you can't know from where they descent.

Most Minor Asia Greeks are from the West coast anyway and look pretty much like islanders and other Greeks.

So i dont see any reason why you want to claim them except from self hate...

Arabid is very very very very very rare in Turkey. Btw Arabid is a Med type.


Howling Wolf That Farts community discussing topics about Mongolia, Arabia and their cultural and racial brothers

Genetically they are closer to Europeans than Arabians and also their not a Semitic population so they don't share much cultural similarity. Sure they have some but it's minor, they have their own unique culture.

[Danishmend]

Danishmend, remove the word "Bulgarian" and the Bulgarian flag from your miserable profile. It is an insult that an abomination like you uses them trying to be witty.

Cry me a river

[Trun]

Cry me a river

Don't dare to quote me, subhuman.

[Danishmend]

Greece=Kezban

kezban: a popular Turkish name for the girls whose behaviors are like bitchy, thinking themselves that they are pretty, wise and virtuous. however, they don't have any of these qualities. if you have girls around you like them, you can start calling them kezban.

[Casandrinos]

kezban: a popular Turkish name for the girls whose behaviors are like bitchy, thinking themselves that they are pretty, wise and virtuous. however, they don't have any of these qualities. if you have girls around you like them, you can start calling them kezban.

Now you begin to talk with scientific terms.

[Danishmend]

Anyway i have things to do, see you later


Don't dare to quote me, subhuman.

Fuerfrei, please..
I know what you look like, you shouldn't have posted your photo if you wanna play the tough guy :laugh:.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Some facts:

-Pontic greeks are genetically native to northeast Turkey.Autosomal results of pontic greeks are similar to hemshin,laz,georgian and turkish results from north-east turkey. G and L are the most popular HG's , not those slavic/semitic/african HG's.
-Greeks, especially from Asia Minor(pontics,karamanlis etc) have definitely Turkish blood. But i think Turks have more greek blood than vice versa (because assimilation/conversion/slavery).
-I don't consider greece as an european country, don't take it personal balkans or even eastern europe is not european to me.
-European union is just an economic union. I think countries like germany,france,uk,benelux,sweden should leave EU and create their own union.

[Trun]

Fuerfrei, please..
I know what you look like, you shouldn't have posted your photo if you wanna play the tough guy :laugh:

Most Turkish guys are one head below me, so better be careful of the words you say.

[thestranger]

Their cultural heritage is the invention of genocide and gas chambers. It is unfair that Hitler has been given credit for them

Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term genocide, did so in response to the systematic massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

The forgotten Holocaust: The Armenian massacre that inspired Hitler
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-479143/The-forgotten-Holocaust-The-Armenian-massacre-inspired-Hitler.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG

"...the Ottomans engineered the first primitive gas chambers by driving thousands of Armenians into rock caves and asphyxiating them by lighting bonfires at the entrances.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-1915-armenian-genocide-finding-a-fit-testament-to-a-timeless-crime-9241154.html


"Genocide denial is the last phase of genocide. It denounces the victims and rehabilitates the perpetrators. It also robs the victim's culture of all moral order ... I feel we Armenians are being stalked by the perpetrators 82 years later.

"We can't heal until there is a full confirmation of the Armenian genocide in the public discourse of world history."

it was not Genocide. it was just joke. i think you Anti-Turkists need yoga. you have too much negative energy. :D

[wvwvw]

True they have their own "special" civilization, they always had. Nothing even remotedly similar to Persian, Arabian or other civilizations.

The Turkish "civilization(sic)" was not a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a bloodthirsty race.


One of the tendencies of the Ottoman state was to lash out against the Christians under its rule. The tragedy of Christian communities under Turkish rule, as then-British Prime Minister William Gladstone saw it, was not “a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race.” He wrote of the Turks:

“They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. Wherever they went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law. — Yet a government by force can not be maintained without the aid of an intellectual element. — Hence there grew up, what has been rare in the history of the world, a kind of tolerance in the midst of cruelty, tyranny and rapine. Much of Christian life was contemptuously left alone and a race of Greeks was attracted to Constantinople which has all along made up, in some degree, the deficiencies of Turkish Islam in the element of mind.”

“The attitude of the Moslems toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves,” reported the British Vice Consul in Mosul (an Ottoman city in what is now Northern Iraq) a little later in 1909, “whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.” This, of course, is the old story of dhimmitude or the second-class citizenship of non-Moslems under Moslem rule.

The Ottomans lurched from outrage to outrage. Regular slaughters of Armenians in Bayazid (1877), Alashgurd (1879), Sassun (1894), Constantinople (1896), Adana (1909) and Armenia itself (1895-96) claimed a total of two hundred thousand lives, but they were only rehearsals for the genocide of 1915. The slaughter of Christians in Alexandria in 1881 was only a rehearsal for the artificial famine induced by the Turks in 1915-16 that killed over a hundred thousand Maronite Christians in Lebanon and Syria. So imminent and ever-present was the peril, and so fresh the memory of these events in the minds of the non-Moslems, that illiterate Christian mothers dated events as so many years before or after “such and such a massacre.” Across the Middle East, the bloodshed of 1915-1922 finally destroyed ancient Christian communities and cultures that had survived since Roman times—groups like the Jacobites (Syrian Orthodox), Nestorians (Iraqi Orthodox), and Chaldaeans (Iraqi Catholic).

[Danishmend]

Most Turkish guys are one head below me, so better be careful of the words you say.

You are a cheap parody of Kastrioti. If there's one thing I know, it's that the more you act tough online, the more loser you are irl

[Trun]

You are a cheap parody of Kastrioti. If there's one thing I know it's that the more you act tough online, the more loser you are irl

You said you have important things to do, or you have already finished them? I knew you wanked over the Turkish flag :lol:

[Casandrinos]

Lol the mongrel is keep going


Yes, they are all Hellenized

The Turk is showing of his ignorance and the main reason why he is here.


History says the otherwise, tough guy. That is why you don't stop bitching about Turks, you are a bunch of losers. If it wasn't for British-French-Russian, you would still be our subjects kissing our feets

I'm not bitching about anything idiot you're on the Grk section

History says whenever you fight in equal numbers you suck cock from everyone.


I don't even consider myself (or my nation) European so you can't use that card against me. It's better to be a proud Eurasian country than a black sheep of Europe (such as Greece)

Proud Eurasian :icon_lol: That's what you say when Europeans reject you?

You BEG to join EU moron...for decades.

[Danishmend]

You said you have important things to do, or you have already finished them? I knew you wanked over the Turkish flag :lol:

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA very funny AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA I cant stop laughing HAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[HellLander87]

I know this ain't the proper thread but can you guys give a quick classification for these turks?

http://s7.postimg.org/6qp36rqmj/image.jpg


P.S I hope you understand now why turks don't eat pork. It's considered cannibalism for them.