No significant Near Eastern admixture in Southeastern Europe since Neolithic times

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/02/human-admixture-common-in-human-history.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-70VKY4lpEgU/Uv0YObtxyoI/AAAAAAAAJfc/peOY5nhRzek/s1600/globetrotter.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jm__QU8yqpA/Uv0dUckCRzI/AAAAAAAAJfs/IDE2cFcgasY/s1600/easterneurope.png

Hi guys, this other paper seems to contradict this one and it even has graphs and stuff and not just hilarious prose like "the turks completely swarmed Greece but left not even one remaining chunk of DNA after the war ended!". And it's peer reviewed and stuff, which as we know means it's totally true.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You often speak of woggy behaviour,what's you opinion on the behaviour of white Americans who refute science and try to find value via the internets of their apartments?

Quite "faggy" if you ask me.

Making fun of funny looking foreign people is the national passtime.

I guess you never heard about swarty italian and greek officials destroying 'pagan' writings wherever they found them. Sad you don't even know about the few real triumphs of southern euroes since they swarted up.

[Arch Hades]

Hi guys, this other paper seems to contradict this one and it even has graphs and stuff.

There is no contradiction...maybe you don't know what you're looking at? lol

The study itself does not imply nor state in the least Greeks or Southeastern Europeans have large amounts of "Near Eastern" admixture from post Roman times.

For the Greeks it gives 1 admixture event dated to 1054 AD which the authors identify with being "Polish Like" ie Slavic.

Try again.

[Faklon]

Making fun of funny looking foreign people is the national passtime.

I guess you never heard about swarty italian and greek officials destroying 'pagan' writings wherever they found them. Sad you don't even know about the few real triumphs of southern euroes since they swarted up.

Did the same.

Were they mean cops or missionaries of Devil(vigilantes)?

[Sakis]

Making fun of funny looking foreign people is the national passtime.

I guess you never heard about swarty italian and greek officials destroying 'pagan' writings wherever they found them. Sad you don't even know about the few real triumphs of southern euroes since they swarted up.

I see that you like making up theories.You should start writing some fairy tales for kids.

[LightHouse89]

I don't have a problem with the Germans..but they lost.

WWII was basically a war between who would control the world's future...Germany or the Jews. The Jews won.

And you can't tell me that retarded British or Americans [who unfortunately have too much obtuse British blood] are tribal considering the demographic disaster of their nations since the end of WWII.

The British will hysterically denounce anything Fascist. hierarchical, masculine, tribal, etc. If you had a brain in your head you'd realize London is enemy #1. In fact you could say HItler's biggest mistake was not recognizing this.

I guarantee you most "Anti racist" male personalities will be overwhelmingly of British descent. If not they're Jewish who are just cloaking their real tribalism.

Well I agree with you about Germany siding against Russia. This is why today I look to Russia more as that means to an end. If America which is enemy number 1 not Britian....Britain maybe enemy number 2. I have no love for modern day Britain or America. The Jews wont win the war vs radical islam.

[Arch Hades]

Here's a few peer reviewed sources that deal exclusively with Italy....other than the Greeks in Southern Italy, historical admixture seems to be minimal to negligible in Italians.

"An analysis of the genetic makeup of Italy's modern population argues that the various distinctive genetic combinations currently found in different regions within the peninsula by and large track the linguistic distribution that resulted from the migrations of the Iron Age. No data indicate the subsequent large-scale infusion of new genetic material into the populations of these regions except in the case of southern Italy and eastern Sicily, which is explained by the well-documented Greek migrations there."

SOURCE : Rosenstein, Nathan. Rome at War: Farms, Families, and Death in the Middle Republic. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2004.

Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=CGgwN9ZLaPYC&printsec=frontcover#v=snippet&q=Greek%20migrations%20there&f=false)


"Statistical techniques for displaying the geographical distribution of many genes in few synthetic images have been used to represent the various patterns of gene frequencies in Europe and in the world (Menozzi et al. 1978; Piazza et al. 1981a). It has also been shown that such synthetic displays are particularly useful in detecting clines of genetic differentiation associated with movements of populations like those accompanying the Neolithic expansion of farmers from the Near East or, in more recent times, the putative diffusion of Indo-European-speaking populations (Ammerman & Cavalli-Sforza, 1984; Gimbutas, 1973).

In this paper we use the same combination of statistical and graphical techniques to study the genetic structure of Italy, a European country whose unity of people and cultures was quite a recent event. The possibility of studying genetic differentiation in a small geographical area is tested and trends of genetic differences are tentatively interpreted in terms of historic and linguistic knowledge. The few demographic pieces of information taken from historical sources and compared with linguistic records support the hypothesis that the genetic structure of Italy still reflects the ethnic stratification of pre-Roman times."

SOURCE : Piazza, A., N. Cappello, E. Olivetti, and S. Rendine. 1988. A genetic history of Italy. Ann. Hum. Genet. 52:203-213.

Link (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.1988.tb01098.x/abstract)

[Trun]

2000 years ago when Greeks, Latins, and Alb0z were enjoying the arts and trading with people in the Far East, the Celts, Germanics, Slavs, and Balts were worshiping animals, wearing animals on their heads, and painting their faces.

However, it seems than Greeks, Southern Italians and especially Alboz haven't moved a milimeter since then, while Celts, Germanics, Slavs and Balts carry the culture and civilization.

[Arch Hades]

However, it seems than Greeks, Southern Italians and especially Alboz haven't moved a milimeter since then, while Celts, Germanics, Slavs and Balts carry the culture and civilization.

Dude, roughly every Slavic country is less developed than modern Greece.

Just look at the human devleopment index.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#cite_ note-UNDP2014-1


Not trying to Straw man You but a place like Northern Italy is way more developed than Poland, yet Northern Italy is still a Southern European country and has way more Neolithic Near Eastern like genes.

[Faklon]

However, it seems than Greeks, Southern Italians and especially Alboz haven't moved a milimeter since then, while Celts, Germanics, Slavs and Balts carry the culture and civilization.

They have to deal with Bulgarians who think they did among other things.

[Sakis]

However, it seems than Greeks, Southern Italians and especially Alboz haven't moved a milimeter since then, while Celts, Germanics, Slavs and Balts carry the culture and civilization.

Every southern European country is described as an advanced economy while not even one slavic country is described as such.

Countries described as Advanced Economies by the IMF.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/IMF_advanced_economies_2008.svg/800px-IMF_advanced_economies_2008.svg.png

Trying to alter the reality is not a wise thing to do.The Slavic countries plus Albania are the least developed of Europe.

[Trun]

Dude, roughly every Slavic country is less developed than modern Greece.

Just look at the human devleopment index.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#cite_ note-UNDP2014-1

Slavs had closed economies for about half a century (yet Slovenia and Czech rep are still ahead of Greece).

Before WW2 Bulgaria was called "Prussia of the Balkans", not Greece.

Ethnic Bulgarians in the west are more educated and have more prestigious jobs than Greeks and Southern Italians there (my own experience). I don't deny the contribution of ancient Greece but had modern Greece and Southern Italy been under communism, they would have been like their brother nation Albania.

Wog genes, deal with it.

[Arch Hades]

Slavs had closed economies for about half a century (yet Slovenia and Czech rep are still ahead of Greece).

Before WW2 Bulgaria was called "Prussia of the Balkans", not Greece.

Ethnic Bulgarians in the west are more educated and have more prestigious jobs than Greeks and Southern Italians there (my own experience). I don't deny the contribution of ancient Greece but had modern Greece and Southern Italy been under communism, they would have been like their brother nation Albania.

Ohh Ok, so you're a nurture > nature guy.


And I'm a little skeptical about "own experience" but whatever.

[Trun]

And I'm a little skeptical about "own experience" but whatever.

There are no official data about it.

[Arch Hades]

Bulgarians are more genetically Northern European like than Greeks are, yet are less developed....hmmmm sounds like Northern genes arent the end all and be all even modern civilization. Much less ancient civilization.

[Trun]

Bulgarians are more genetically Northern European like than Greeks are, yet are less developed....hmmmm sounds like Northern genes arent the end all and be all even modern civilization. Much less ancient civilization.

I explained you why Bulgaria is less developed as a state than Greece. Communism.

Austria is more developed than Greece but they didn't have 400 years Ottoman empire in da house.

In my opinion all Europeans are roughly equal in abilities, some just had a little luck.

[Faklon]

Slavs had closed economies for about half a century (yet Slovenia and Czech rep are still ahead of Greece).

Before WW2 Bulgaria was called "Prussia of the Balkans", not Greece.

Ethnic Bulgarians in the west are more educated and have more prestigious jobs than Greeks and Southern Italians there (my own experience). I don't deny the contribution of ancient Greece but had modern Greece and Southern Italy been under communism, they would have been like their brother nation Albania.

Wog genes, deal with it.

You see the Balkano-attention peasant will come with mouth to mouth knowledge without providing sources and blame it on gypsies or communism or etc like all other countries had dream-like situations.

One that doesn't understand the situation could come up with nobel prices,scientists or economy of ethnic groups in the new world like it's something ultimate.

Last time I heard about Bulgaria from American media excluding economy was when I was playing GTA4,there was a psychic medium describing how she caught STDs in a pool in Bulgaria.

This station/program


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_IV_soundtrack#Vice_City_FM_.E2.80 .A0

PLR – Public Liberty Radio

Program: The Séance
Host: Beatrix Fontaine (Ilyana Kadushin)
Topics: A call-in talk show[9] focused on New Age spiritualism. During the show, Beatrix, a phony psychic, provides callers with questionable advice, and constantly asks for their money. Beatrix's last name may be a reference to Darius Fontaine, a get-rich-quick huckster who appeared in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

But hey,who cares what Americans think or not?

[Trun]

You see the Balkano-attention peasant will come with mouth to mouth knowledge without providing sources and blame it on gypsies or communism or etc like all other countries had dream-like situations.

One that doesn't understand the situation could come up with nobel prices,scientists or economy of ethnic groups in the new world like it's something ultimate.

Last time I heard about Bulgaria from American media excluding economy was when I was playing GTA4,there was psychic medium describing how she caught STDs in a pool in Bulgaria.

This station/program


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_IV_soundtrack#Vice_City_FM_.E2.80 .A0


But hey,who cares what Americans think or not?

Big shit, isn't it?

[Faklon]

Big shit, isn't it?

Big Mac shit

[PowerControls]

Every southern European country is described as an advanced economy while not even one slavic country is described as such.

Countries described as Advanced Economies by the IMF.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/IMF_advanced_economies_2008.svg/800px-IMF_advanced_economies_2008.svg.png

Trying to alter the reality is not a wise thing to do.The Slavic countries plus Albania are the least developed of Europe.

Czech Republic and Slovakia are considered by IMF as advanced economies. Anyway, there are different indexes and lists...it's just matter of various methodologies. What is interesting...Dow Jones List - Greece will be demoted to emerging market effective September 2014; S&P List - Greece will be demoted to emerging market effective September 2014...Let's get back to this topic in 5 years;-)

[Faklon]

Czech Republic and Slovakia are considered by IMF as advanced economies. Anyway, there are different indexes and lists...it's just matter of various methodologies. What is interesting...Dow Jones List - Greece will be demoted to emerging market effective September 2014; S&P List - Greece will be demoted to emerging market effective September 2014...Let's get back to this topic in 5 years;-)

Very cool but on plan since 2011.

Here's a new one.

http://blogs.ft.com/the-world/2014/07/too-early-for-crisis-hit-greece-to-claim-victory/

Another

http://online.wsj.com/articles/polands-economic-slowdown-is-worse-than-expected-says-rate-setter-1406819121

And enjoy common Russian embargo,cheers.

[Sikeliot]

Ethnic Bulgarians in the west are more educated and have more prestigious jobs than Greeks and Southern Italians there (my own experience). I don't deny the contribution of ancient Greece but had modern Greece and Southern Italy been under communism, they would have been like their brother nation Albania.


Southern Italians and Sicilians are very mercantile people, and typically are good business owners but in general are not as successful as our close cousins, the Jews.

[cally]

They were super northerners, more northern than modern ones.

Are you guys seriously butthurt about the neolithic times? Am i actually reading these comments?
I would think I'm on a teen site here

[Scholarios]

Southern Italians and Sicilians are very mercantile people, and typically are good business owners but in general are not as successful as our close cousins, the Jews.


So are Greeks. I don't know, I never meet poor Greeks in US or Australia. I don't know well about Bulgarians.

[Ianus]

Southern Italians and Sicilians are very mercantile people, and typically are good business owners but in general are not as successful as our close cousins, the Jews.

:picard2:

[Peikko]

Czech Republic and Slovakia are considered by IMF as advanced economies. Anyway, there are different indexes and lists...it's just matter of various methodologies. What is interesting...Dow Jones List - Greece will be demoted to emerging market effective September 2014; S&P List - Greece will be demoted to emerging market effective September 2014...Let's get back to this topic in 5 years;-)
Going from advanced economy to emerging market is quite an accomplishment. The Greeks might be the first to actually accomplish this. :clap2:

[LightHouse89]

Are you guys seriously butthurt about the neolithic times? Am i actually reading these comments?
I would think I'm on a teen site here

I want to kick that guy out of the boat and make out with you on the lake :p

[LightHouse89]

:picard2:

maybe sicilians but not mainland italians....I dont think they have much if anything in common with jews....greeks yes and surrounding people but not the jews.

[LightHouse89]

Bulgarians are more genetically Northern European like than Greeks are, yet are less developed....hmmmm sounds like Northern genes arent the end all and be all even modern civilization. Much less ancient civilization.

:rolleyes: all of you have middle eastern DNA except British/Irish people. :p Rule the waves boys rule the waves :thumb001:

[Arch Hades]

:rolleyes: all of you have middle eastern DNA except British/Irish people. :p Rule the waves boys rule the waves :thumb001:

I guess it depends on the definition of "Middle Eastern DNA". But I would disagree anyway.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285

[LightHouse89]

So are Greeks. I don't know, I never meet poor Greeks in US or Australia. I don't know well about Bulgarians.

Greeks here are not that poor. They are not rich either. They generally keep to themselves. I am not sure of Australia...they coined the term wog....here that word never exist...we have racist words for every group of Europeans who live here..... Italians are called Guineas, Greeks are Whops, Irish are Micks, English are Limeys, Germans are Krauts, Russians are Ivans, Spanish [used for all Iberians though] are Spics, French are frogs, Finns are slant eyes, Poles are Pollacks, Romanians and Bulgarians are called gypsies, ETC...... I think I covered many groups here.

Anyway I notice where I live the Armenians and Greek communities are very close. They all live on the same side of the city and tend to get along very well with one another.

[LightHouse89]

I guess it depends on the definition of "Middle Eastern DNA". But I would disagree anyway.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285

Allah Snackbar! :p You do realize I am just being a pain in the ass with you this whole time.

[TheForeigner]

Greeks here are not that poor. They are not rich either. They generally keep to themselves. I am not sure of Australia...they coined the term wog....here that word never exist...we have racist words for every group of Europeans who live here..... Italians are called Guineas, Greeks are Whops, Irish are Micks, English are Limeys, Germans are Krauts, Russians are Ivans, Spanish [used for all Iberians though] are Spics, French are frogs, Finns are slant eyes, Poles are Pollacks, Romanians and Bulgarians are called gypsies, ETC...... I think I covered many groups here.

Anyway I notice where I live the Armenians and Greek communities are very close. They all live on the same side of the city and tend to get along very well with one another.

Are you sure romanians and bulgarians are called gypsies in America. You even said it's rare to see any there. And whops are italians and spics are more often ''latinos''.The term wog was coined by the british for arabs,indians,middle easterners and later also used by aussies for greeks and italians too, but still for middle easterners too.

[TheForeigner]

What about near eastern and egyptian slaves during hellenistic and roman times? Not trolling. I am part greek too.

[Bloodnigger]

What about near eastern and egyptian slaves during hellenistic and roman times? Not trolling. I am part greek too.

There were also quite a few dacian and celtic slaves during the late hellenistic period. None left their mark.

Much like the greek colonists in ptolemaic egypt and the seleucid empire didn't leave a lasting mark, neither did the slaves.

[armenianbodyhair]

Science doesn't lie.

[MINARDOWICZ]

BS... LOL You can read other genetic research papers saying the opposite. The fact is, there is near eastern influence. It's hard to deny.

[Styrian Mujo]

I smell butthurt Mediterranean nationalist bullshit...

[MINARDOWICZ]

I smell butthurt Mediterranean nationalist bullshit...

http://arabface.us/images/arab-street.jpg

[MINARDOWICZ]

Which?

Doesn't take much to find. I can find others too!

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0096074

They mention both european and non-european people who effected Sicily genetically... Happy? :p

[Anthropologique]

yes, Sicilians are about 6% paternally Arab/North African...but that's not very significant. That means they're 94% not on the paternal side. On the Maternal side it's likely 99% or more non Arab/North African.

Yes, but the Italian Peninsula does have significant West Asian input as well.

[Smeagol]

Yes, but the Italian Peninsula does have significant West Asian input s well.

North Italy has about the same level as Iberia.

[MINARDOWICZ]

North Italy has about the same level as Iberia.

But not South or even Central Italy. They have SIGNIFICANTLY higher levels.

[Smeagol]

But not South or even Central Italy. They have SIGNIFICANTLY higher levels.

Well West Asian component isn't really distant from European components anyway, and it's been important in Europe since Neolithic times.

[MINARDOWICZ]

You really need to read the studies you post. It even has a handy table (notice the TMRCA estimates)

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0096074.t001&representation=PNG_L

Furthermore:



Thank you for this.

http://dodecad.blogspot.gr/2012/03/fastibd-analysis-of-italybalkansanatoli.html

Some more IBDs. Red signifies a good amount of sharing, blue indicates neglible.

These are dated in the last 3000 years. Make of these what you will.

So? The North African IS Negligable and I never denied this. All the people on this forum are WAY overestimating the "neolithic" effect. The amount of people (even european) that came along through the area were enough to water down Italy of its high "neolithic" score really... There is no way they retained as much neolithic as you all claim. I assume 50% of the "middle eastern/west asian" component that is seen is from Neolithic times, and the other 50% is from Anatolian, Levantine, etc. populations.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Well West Asian component isn't really distant from European components anyway, and it's been important in Europe since Neolithic times.

God help me! No more Neolithic BS. Why are these levels not as high in other european countries except in Italy and Greece????

It makes no sense and I will tell you why... Italians and Greeks are BOTH VERY mixed people, there is no way they have that much neolithic left in them, after all this time. It is not like they are ISOLATES. You see why that is so absurd? Probably 1/2 (give or take) as actually neolithic, if they retained as much as other people...

[MINARDOWICZ]

Since when are Italians inbred Neolithic descent people? That is BS. If they were this Neolithic, the other med populations should be too... Don't ignore the truth! Geneticists have called Italy the country in Europe with the most genetic variety (even more than Finland) and this is due to many different European AND non-european people coming through... Keep in mind that most of the populations were European though... With all this mixing going on... There is no way they would have such significantly higher "neolithic" score unless they were secretly inbreeding for so long. *facepalm*.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Not really, it is far less. Notice the percentage he gives of north african exclusive groups. They barely exceed 1.5%.

Meanwhile, according to Identity-By-Descent, they have almost no recent ancestors, autosomal-dna wise.

Stop talking about North Africa, this is not about North Africa. This is about the Levant and ANATOLIA! Everyone knows North African influence is quite low in % and rarely exceeds 3% anyways even in like... West Sicily.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Yes there is. Greeks also score 16% ANE, which is above the 14% average in europe.

Either way those closest to the neolithic starting point should obviously have more of it. The study posted in the OP proves that theory.

Greeks are a mixed people, true, but what matters is the date of the mixture. This is why I am posting IBDs.

Still not as high as neolithic would have to be if there was next to no recent near eastern admixture in S Italy. Try again, dude!

Look at how high "middle eastern" it seems they are. Neolithic? Bwahahaha! Even Isleno, who is a strong believer in it being Neolithic, said Sicilians are around 15% actual Middle Eastern, which is FAR from negligible.

[Smeagol]

God help me! No more Neolithic BS. Why are these levels not as high in other european countries except in Italy and Greece????

It makes no sense and I will tell you why... Italians and Greeks are BOTH VERY mixed people, there is no way they have that much neolithic left in them, after all this time. It is not like they are ISOLATES. You see why that is so absurd? Probably 1/2 (give or take) as actually neolithic, if they retained as much as other people...

West Asian admixture in Greeks is probably Neolithic (and all Europeans have significant Neolithic admixture) South Italians probably have more recent Middle Eastern ancestry, considering that South Italy is the only place in Europe where Semitic type is present. (And not even that rare).

[MINARDOWICZ]

West Asian admixture in Greeks is probably Neolithic (and all Europeans have significant Neolithic admixture) South Italians probably have more recent Middle Eastern ancestry, considering that's South Italy is the only place in Europe where Semitic type is present. (And not even that rare).

And that, exactly, is my point. The % is FAR from negligible. Even if it was just 10% (which it is likely a lot more) it would not be "negligible".

[Smeagol]

And that, exactly, is my point. The % is FAR from negligible. Even if it was just 10% (which it is likely a lot more) it would not be "negligible".

Yeah but anyway, Europeans and Middle Easterners are still both Caucasoids.

[Styrian Mujo]

Sardinians are closest to neolithic farmers and Iberians too probably. Italians and Greeks on the other hand are clearly heavly Afroasiatic influenced.

[Smeagol]

Sardinians are closest to neolithic farmers and Iberians too. Italians and Greeks on the other hand are clearly heavly Afroasiatic influenced.

Greeks obviously aren't, considering Semitic phenotype is absent there.

[Tacitus]

West Asian admixture in Greeks is probably Neolithic (and all Europeans have significant Neolithic admixture) South Italians probably have more recent Middle Eastern ancestry, considering that South Italy is the only place in Europe where Semitic type is present. (And not even that rare).

Define "recent."

[Styrian Mujo]

Define "recent."
Oh you know there was a handfull of Semitic slaves/immigrants in Roman Italy.

[Smeagol]

Define "recent."

Since Roman times.

[Styrian Mujo]

And more northern euro ones besides.

Or didn't we go through that already?
Ugh not this shit again...

[Tacitus]

Oh you know there was a handfull of Semitic slaves/immigrants in Roman Italy.


Since Roman times.

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/minimal-impact-of-roman-slavery.html

[Smeagol]

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/minimal-impact-of-roman-slavery.html

Not necessarily all from slaves, but the fact is Semitic type in Europe exists almost exclusively in S. Italy/Sicily. I don't know why exactly, but it's the truth. I've met hundreds of Italian Americans, and Id estimate around 20% have Semitic influence in their phenotype.

[Sikeliot]

Sicily has minor Indo-European from the Italics, but their North Euro admixture is still comparatively low next to most other Europeans.

[Tacitus]

Not necessarily all from slaves, but the fact is Semitic type in Europe exists almost exclusively in S. Italy/Sicily. I don't know why exactly, but it's the truth. I've met hundreds of Italian Americans, and Id estimate around 20% have Semitic influence in their phenotype.

Can't really go by IAs to be honest. Certainly some you've met were mixed with other types (Ashkenazi most likely).

[Anthropologique]

North Italy has about the same level as Iberia.

No, considerably more. Check Eurogenes.

Eupedia's genetic maps taken from Eurogenes, Dodecad and others
have N. Italian West Asian at 10-15%. Iberians are in the 1-5% range on average.

[Smeagol]

Can't really go by IAs to be honest. Certainly some you've met were mixed with other types (Ashkenazi most likely).

South Italians, and Ashkenazis have pretty similar genes anyway. But also I came to the same conclusion by looking at Sikeliot's threads. The people he posts don't look any different than typical Italian Americans to me.

[Sikeliot]

South Italians, and Ashkenazis have pretty similar genes anyway. But also I came to the same conclusion by looking at Sikeliot's threads. The people he posts don't look any different than typical Italian Americans to me.

You know they'll get annoyed because they don't like the photos I post.

Anyway here are some chosen by Heraus on Anthrocivitas, I did not choose these.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4249584488_262113ee95.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8538/8672075842_62bdfae9e9.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1431/4607192749_f7375890cf.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4294568190_2cc24ef182.jpg

[Smeagol]

You know they'll get annoyed because they don't like the photos I post.

Anyway here are some chosen by Heraus on Anthrocivitas, I did not choose these.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4249584488_262113ee95.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8538/8672075842_62bdfae9e9.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1431/4607192749_f7375890cf.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4294568190_2cc24ef182.jpg

Yeah these people look like typical Italian Americans. Semitic is very clearly visible in a good percentage of these people, but my no means the majority.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah these people look like typical Italian Americans. Semitic is very clearly visible in a good percentage of these people, but my no means the majority.

For European standards, probably surpassed only by Malta. I don't consider Cyprus Europe.

Anyway, first 4 rows are Calabrese, then Sicily, then Apulia, then Sicily again.

I'll show you the Greeks and Maltese if you want to compare.

[Anthropologique]

You know they'll get annoyed because they don't like the photos I post.

Anyway here are some chosen by Heraus on Anthrocivitas, I did not choose these.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4249584488_262113ee95.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8538/8672075842_62bdfae9e9.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1431/4607192749_f7375890cf.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4294568190_2cc24ef182.jpg

I don't generally like his compilations.

Most S. Italians do fit in the range of the grouping shown above, however.

[Sikeliot]

Greeks for comparison:


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5047/5302742641_7565ab7924.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2128/4512585470_bcd68253a3.jpg


Maltese:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5067514810_6349e1985b.jpg

[Smeagol]

For European standards, probably surpassed only by Malta. I don't consider Cyprus Europe.

Anyway, first 4 rows are Calabrese, then Sicily, then Apulia, then Sicily again.

I'll show you the Greeks and Maltese if you want to compare.

Maltese look almost identical to Sicilians. Greeks look significantly more "European" on average, but still can overlap a lot with individual S. Italians, and Cypriots look purely Levantine with no Semitic influences.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Yeah but anyway, Europeans and Middle Easterners are still both Caucasoids.

Who said they weren't? Just, hey look different. This would mean that Sicilians are partially non europid Caucasoid.

[Ianus]

Sik, most of these people are tanned:bored:

[MINARDOWICZ]

How is that? First of all it was a tunisian emirate that conquered sicily. The levantine admixture falls outside the arab conquest period. Notice the estimates they gave. Also notice the IBD results I posted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghlabids

It wasn't the arab occupation that caused the admixture. *facepalm* what about the Phoenicians?

I was never talking about "arab conquest" n stuff. :picard2:

[MINARDOWICZ]

Greeks obviously aren't, considering Semitic phenotype is absent there.

I think Greeks could possibly have some anatolian influence... Not semitic though.

[MINARDOWICZ]

By recent we mean in the last 2000-1500 years.

Recent, to me, means, NOT NEOLITHIC. And most of it would be in that range, yes, 2000-1500.

[Anthropologique]

But not South or even Central Italy. They have SIGNIFICANTLY higher levels.

N. Italy also has significantly higher levels than Iberia. The Eupedia maps - based on Eurogenes and Dodecad results mainly - have N. Italy at 10 - 15%. Iberia is 1- 5%.

[Anthropologique]

True. I'd ask crimson guard for examples, compare them with those from anthrocivitas and choose the ones who overlap with each other. :icon_lol:

CG is essentially brain damaged.

[Anthropologique]

Too many testo/winstrol cycles without enough nolvadex and clomid for therapy can do that to a person.

He's totally delusional. Thinks he's related to Basques.:picard2::picard2:

[Anthropologique]

Rule is you don't discuss with him or listen to his claims, merely download and copy the old anthro sources he posts. He has my gratitude for that at least.

Yeah, he's always quoting some 19th - 20th century charlatan. Anthroscape is filled with racially insecure dolts.

[Black Wolf]

He's totally delusional. Thinks he's related to Basques.:picard2::picard2:

Is his Y-DNA haplogroup R1b by chance lol?

[Anthropologique]

Is his Y-DNA haplogroup R1b by chance lol?

Actually, I think he's part negroid. You can see it in his gross stupidity. :D

[Black Wolf]

Actually, I think he's part negroid. You can see it in his gross stupidity. :D

I could see him going along with the now archaic train of thought that is if you are R1b then you are automatically Basque lol. :rolleyes:

[StonyArabia]

Is his Y-DNA haplogroup R1b by chance lol?

No he is not

[Anthropologique]

I could see him going along with the now archaic train of thought that is if you are R1b then you are automatically Basque lol. :rolleyes:

LMAO!! He's a great case for social psychologists, not to mention psychiatrists.

[Anthropologique]

No he is not

What are his haplogroups?

[Black Wolf]

No he is not

What are his haplogroups do you know? Both Y-DNA and mtDNA.

[Anthropologique]

N-for no post cycle therapy

H-for human growth hormone.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Anthropologique]

What are his haplogroups do you know? Both Y-DNA and mtDNA.

Ostensibly, his Y-haplogroup is T. Found mainly in Italy, Greece and the ME. It's pretty rare.

[Smeagol]

Ostensibly, his Y-haplogroup is T. Found mainly in Italy, Greece and the ME. It's pretty rare.

That was also Thomas Jefferson's haplogroup apparently.

[Anthropologique]

That was also Thomas Jefferson's haplogroup apparently.

Yes ... VERY rare in Western Europe. He was Scottish and Ydna-T averages less than .5% in Scotland overall.
The highest in the west end of Europe is ~3%, found in a few areas of France and Iberia

[Arch Hades]

Every southern European country is described as an advanced economy while not even one slavic country is described as such.

Countries described as Advanced Economies by the IMF.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/IMF_advanced_economies_2008.svg/800px-IMF_advanced_economies_2008.svg.png.Trying to alter the reality is not a wise thing to do.The Slavic countries plus Albania are the least developed of Europe.



LOL, what a tard, the Baltic countries the same.

[Arch Hades]

Still not as high as neolithic would have to be if there was next to no recent near eastern admixture in S Italy. Try again, dude!

Look at how high "middle eastern" it seems they are. Neolithic? Bwahahaha! Even Isleno, who is a strong believer in it being Neolithic, said Sicilians are around 15% actual Middle Eastern, which is FAR from negligible.



Dude all your garbage was refuted in the OP, post the study that claims Southeastern EUropeans have tons of historical near Eastern admixture [the one you posted dates it to 1700 BC ! lol], i'm talking about since 500 BC or so. Post it or piss off and quit lowering the discourse of my thread.

All your comments are little more than conjecture you pull from the deep bowels of your rear, we're interested in specific facts here.

[Ulla]

Italians and Greeks are BOTH VERY mixed people

If Italians and Greeks are very mixed people, what are Americans?

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110606-dsk-crowd-eg.photoblog900.jpg

[Ulla]

Ostensibly, his Y-haplogroup is T. Found mainly in Italy, Greece and the ME. It's pretty rare.

Oh, sure.


Yes ... VERY rare in Western Europe. He was Scottish and Ydna-T averages less than .5% in Scotland overall.
The highest in the west end of Europe is ~3%, found in a few areas of France and Iberia


In Italy is 2,5%, France 1%, Portugal 2,5%, Spain 2,5%, Estonia 4,5%, Greece 4,5%.

[MINARDOWICZ]

If Italians and Greeks are very mixed people, what are Americans?

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110606-dsk-crowd-eg.photoblog900.jpg

You know little of the US... This is a large city, filled with lots of recent immigrants... Find rural photos... you shall see...

[MINARDOWICZ]

Dude all your garbage was refuted in the OP, post the study that claims Southeastern EUropeans have tons of historical near Eastern admixture [the one you posted dates it to 1700 BC ! lol], i'm talking about since 500 BC or so. Post it or piss off and quit lowering the discourse of my thread.

All your comments are little more than conjecture you pull from the deep bowels of your rear, we're interested in specific facts here.

How does before 500 BC mean something? Fool.

[Sikeliot]

I can't wait for the study that dates the North Euro admix in southern Italy and shows most of it is ancient Italic and not Lombard, Norman, or any kind of Germanic..

[Arch Hades]

How does before 500 BC mean something? Fool.

I said "since" which means after 500 BC, not before 500 BC. Dumbass

[Arch Hades]

Here's a Y chromosome study, pretty much says nearly all Y chromosomal variation in Italy is dated to the Neolithic or Metal ages....

Date estimates for paternal variation.


BATWING was used to estimate the age of split between the Italian regions identified by the first sPCA (NWI and SEI, excluding SAR). BATWING modelled population growth starting at 12,890 YBP (95% CI: 3,700–83,070), with a rate of 0.00429 (95% CI: 0.00254–0.01219) per year. Our results suggest that the split happened around 5,490 YBP (95% CI: 1,620–26,830). Since BATWING does not consider migration, admixture between NWI and SEI would likely bias the split time estimate towards more recent dates.

Concerning Y-chromosome lineages, STR variation within the 13 clusters mentioned above suggests that most of them date back to relatively recent times (Table 2). In fact, the ages of the considered clusters (with a peak in one of the considered sPCA groups) fall roughly within the interval from the time of split estimated with BATWING between NWI and SEI and the present. This is consistent with the fact that group-specific clusters of haplotypes (NWI, SEI) are very likely to have emerged after the split within the Italian ‘ancestral’ population or later. No different patterns of timing are detected between both regions. The time estimates were similar for whole haplogroups with the notable exception of G2-P15, which showed older ages. These results suggest that most of the Y-chromosomal diversity present in modern day Italians was originated from few common ancestors living during late Neolithic times and the Early Metal Ages. However, if we would take into account evolutionary rates, we would observe results three times higher than those above mentioned, meaning that most dates would shift to late Paleolithic.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

So virtually very little influence has come into Italy since Roman domination of the Peninsula.

[MINARDOWICZ]

IT MEANS THAT IT IS NOT RECENT.

Are we not arguing that they are the same as classical antiquity? Your paper proved exactly that.

You have my thanks.

God you are so foolish. 1700 years ago is NOT Neolithic. THAT IS MY POINT! JUST BECAUSE IT WAS THAT LONG AGO... does't make it any less exotic... Neolithic was WAY longer ago.

[Kale]

If population A lives in Italy.
And population B lives in Lebanon.
And we suspect population B might have migrated to population A recently.
Then we only sample population A's y chromosome variation.
We might as well say there has been no migration to the United States within the past 200,000 years because the variation in y chromosomes includes every population on Earth.
If however we took a sample from West Africa, and Europe, and Asia...we'd see they have close relatives only 500 or so years old.

[Kale]

I'd like to see that study if you have a link handy.

[Volscian]

@Minard,
please check this link.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?137355-The-Geography-of-Recent-Genetic-Ancestry-across-Europe

[Black Wolf]

There is not doubt at all that Europe received migrations of and movements of people from the Near East/West Asia from the Neolithic right up until the Middle Ages. Really it started way before the Neolithic even if you count the Upper Paleolithic migrations to Europe which also had a Near Eastern source. But in this thread I know we are talking about genetically Near Eastern/West Asian people.

[cally]

Hard to believe though. but there's definitely a lot of admixture from the North-East, so either way, we are bastardized.

[Black Wolf]

Hard to believe though. but there's definitely a lot of admixture from the North-East, so either way, we are bastardized.

From a genetic perspective there really are no ethnic groups in the world today that are ''pure''.

[Arch Hades]

God you are so foolish. 1700 years ago is NOT Neolithic. THAT IS MY POINT! JUST BECAUSE IT WAS THAT LONG AGO... does't make it any less exotic... Neolithic was WAY longer ago.


1700 BC is not 1700 years ago. :picard1:

Gosh you're such a clueless retard, it's almost painful to watch. But yeah this is technically considered the Bronze age.

[MINARDOWICZ]

1700 BC is not 1700 years ago. :picard1:

Gosh you're such a clueless retard, it's almost painful to watch. But yeah this is technically considered the Bronze age.

I misread, don't be such a jerk...

But do you not see the flaw of this thread??? IT SAYS NEOLITHIC! I'm SICK of the Neolithic LIE...

It's a complete lie, that Italians are THIS Neolithic. J2 is not entirely Neolithic, just look at the % in Lebanon. There you have it!

The title says NEOLITHIC doesn't it??? Am I goin crazy? I don't think so. :picard2: