EUROPEAN Admixture

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUbDDUHxWAs

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

EUROPEAN Admixture - Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M10Hr86pc9w
Based on Dodecad "Southern European"+ "Northern European"+"Western European"

[Sehnsucht]

What calculator is this on Gedmatch?

[Gaston]

Old, obsolete, inaccurate.

Most Europeans are less than 50% native European. The rest is Near Eastern and ANE (with in some cases African, East Asian/Siberian and South Asian contributions). Half or more of modern Europeans' ancestors arrived in the Neolithic or well after.

Besides, Eurogenes is better than Dodecad and is actually still working.

[Black Wolf]

Old, obsolete, inaccurate.

Most Europeans are less than 50% native European. The rest is Near Eastern and ANE (with in some cases African, East Asian/Siberian and South Asian contributions). Half or more of mdern Europeans' ancestors arrived in the Neolithic or well after.

Besides, Eurogenes is better than Dodecad and is actually still working.

Yes this is pretty much all correct. There is a chance that some of the ANE in Northeastern Europe today comes from Mesolithic ancestors but yeah I think most of it came later on with Indo-European migrations.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Old, obsolete, inaccurate.

Most Europeans are less than 50% native European. The rest is Near Eastern and ANE (with in some cases African, East Asian/Siberian and South Asian contributions). Half or more of mdern Europeans' ancestors arrived in the Neolithic or well after.

Besides, Eurogenes is better than Dodecad and is actually still working.
Really? lol that's what some people here was hoping for. no? :dunno: maybe your one, where are you from or what's your ancestry? but okay. anyway, a link you can send me to read? thanks :icon_smile:

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Yes this is pretty much all correct. There is a chance that some of the ANE in Northeastern Europe today comes from Mesolithic ancestors but yeah I think most of it came later on with Indo-European migrations.

Hey what's up my Italian friend part Finnish/Irish, from Canada :wave: :victory0:

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Especially them "Italic Roots" :biggrin:

[Ibericus]

Old, obsolete, inaccurate.

Most Europeans are less than 50% native European. The rest is Near Eastern and ANE (with in some cases African, East Asian/Siberian and South Asian contributions). Half or more of modern Europeans' ancestors arrived in the Neolithic or well after.

Besides, Eurogenes is better than Dodecad and is actually still working.
To me Neolithic europeans can be considered Native. Plus The near-east that came here were actually pretty different from modern near-easterns (basically pure meds).
It's the more recent near-east layer of admixture that is foreing (the one bringing Southwest-Asian and such) which is what Lazaridis says, and why Sicilians or Jews cannot be modeled as the three-way Mesolithic + Neolithic + ANE, like most Europeans do.

[Bell Beaker]

The some of the admixtures gave to Portugal 87% not 85%. To Spain 89%...

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

The some of the admixtures gave to Portugal 87% not 85%. To Spain 89%...

They are pretty close. only the Basques in Iberia some % more up for the isolation.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Eso es lo que algunas personas aquí quisieran, jaja especialmente algunos...que es una de sus peores pesadillas.

[Black Wolf]

Hey what's up my Italian friend part Finnish/Irish, from Canada :wave: :victory0:

Hey buddy! How are you doing? :D

[Black Wolf]

To me Neolithic europeans can be considered Native. Plus The near-east that came here were actually pretty different from modern near-easterns (basically pure meds).
It's the more recent near-east layer of admixture that is foreing (the one bringing Southwest-Asian and such) which is what Lazaridis says, and why Sicilians or Jews cannot be modeled as the three-way Mesolithic + Neolithic + ANE, like most Europeans do.

Yeah the Neolithic component present in Europe indeed in most parts is very old and mainly came with farming. But it does have the same source basically as the later Bronze Age and later migrations from the Near East into parts of Southeastern Europe. They both come from a Neolithic Near Eastern source.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Hey buddy! How are you doing? :D

Good good, thanks. I'm just here on for a bit looking around. :)

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Yeah the Neolithic component present in Europe indeed in most parts is very old and mainly came with farming. But it does have the same source basically as the later Bronze Age and later migrations from the Near East into parts of Southeastern Europe. They both come from a Neolithic Near Eastern source.

Yeah, and has evolved and mixed in Europe. so now it's consider native. Sardinians are one of the purest example of Neolithic Meds and they do not look like modern near-easterns or Levantines. but similar like Iberians.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Even my Y-DNA J2. :cool:

[Gaston]

To me Neolithic europeans can be considered Native. Plus The near-east that came here were actually pretty different from modern near-easterns (basically pure meds).
It's the more recent near-east layer of admixture that is foreing (the one bringing Southwest-Asian and such) which is what Lazaridis says, and why Sicilians or Jews cannot be modeled as the three-way Mesolithic + Neolithic + ANE, like most Europeans do.

Neolithic Europeans are the same as Neolithic Near Easterners so I can't accept it as European because otherwise, Near Easterners and North Africans would also be mostly European. Besides, modern Near Easterners are actually closer to Europeans than to Ancient Near Easterners because of the very recent and common shared ANE ancestry.

As for Sicilians and Ashkenazis, they seem to be more recently admixed, in line with history (for Ashkenazis) and geography (for Sicilians). They also have African ancestry. But in any case, they both have ANE admixture.

[Ibericus]

Neolithic Europeans are the same as Neolithic Near Easterners so I can't accept it as European because otherwise, Near Easterners and North Africans would also be mostly European.
That's not true at all. Neolithic Near Easterns are responsible for the Mediterranean type of components (West Med, East Med) , while modern near-easterns and North-Africans are much more admixed than that, in fact besides the Med they're mostly Southwest-Asian, West-Asian (in case of near-east) and SSA/East-African admixed.


Besides, modern Near Easterners are actually closer to Europeans than to Ancient Near Easterners because of the very recent and common shared ANE ancestry.
I don't think so. Ancient Near -Easterns didn't have have any sub-saharan or East-african (like moderns do, up to 8% in some Levantines). We know that because Neolithic Farmers have no SSA. And the Southwest-Asian component is also very minor in them, contrary to modern Near-East.

[Black Wolf]

That's not true at all. Neolithic Near Easterns are responsible for the Mediterranean type of components (West Med, East Med) , while modern near-easterns and North-Africans are much more admixed than that, in fact besides the Med they're mostly Southwest-Asian, West-Asian (in case of near-east) and SSA/East-African admixed.


I don't think so. Ancient Near -Easterns didn't have have any sub-saharan or East-african (like moderns do, up to 8% in some Levantines). We know that because Neolithic Farmers have no SSA. And the Southwest-Asian component is also very minor in them, contrary to modern Near-East.

Actually it is mostly. He said ''Neolithic'' Europeans are the same as ''Neolithic'' Near Easterners and yes it applies in the modern sense as well as the Near Eastern autosomal genetic component shows up in large frequencies in both Near Eastern and European populations. Check it out.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2014/12/ane-is-primary-cause-of-west-to-east.html

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit?pli=1#gid=1138248510

[Black Wolf]

Neolithic Europeans are the same as Neolithic Near Easterners so I can't accept it as European because otherwise, Near Easterners and North Africans would also be mostly European. Besides, modern Near Easterners are actually closer to Europeans than to Ancient Near Easterners because of the very recent and common shared ANE ancestry.

As for Sicilians and Ashkenazis, they seem to be more recently admixed, in line with history (for Ashkenazis) and geography (for Sicilians). They also have African ancestry. But in any case, they both have ANE admixture.

Yes and even the more recent Near Eastern ancestry of the Ashkenazi and Sicilians has it's ancient roots in the Neolithic populations of the Near East.

[Ibericus]

Actually it is mostly. He said ''Neolithic'' Europeans are the same as ''Neolithic'' Near Easterners and yes it applies in the modern sense as well as the Near Eastern autosomal genetic component shows up in large frequencies in both Near Eastern and European populations. Check it out.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2014/12/ane-is-primary-cause-of-west-to-east.html

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit?pli=1#gid=1138248510
IWe were comparing Ancient near-easterns with modern near easterns. Not with European Farmers (which are ancient NE + WHG), basically like Sardinians. And as you can see on the spreasheet, Bedouins average 10% SSA (when ancient near-east didn't have that).

[Black Wolf]

IWe were comparing Ancient near-easterns with modern near easterns. Not with European Farmers (which are ancient NE + WHG), basically like Sardinians. And as you can see on the spreasheet, Bedouins average 10% SSA (when ancient near-east didn't have that).

What I am saying is that both neolithic Europeans and Neolithic Near Easterners came from the same ancient source. Also both the Neolithic ancestors of modern day Europeans and Near Easterners largely came from the same ancient source as seen by both modern say Europeans and Near Easterners have large frequencies of the Near Eastern ancestral component. In this spreadsheet the WHG component is a rather pure one and the Near Eastern one is a rather pure one as well but it has something WHG like in it that is probably ancestral to the true WHG component found in Europe. Polako himself has confirmed this.

You seem to be in denial that both modern day Europeans and Near Easteners derive a large portion of their genes from the same Neolithic population that had it's roots in the Near East.

[Ibericus]

What I am saying is that both neolithic Europeans and Neolithic Near Easterners came from the same ancient source. Also both the Neolithic ancestors of modern day Europeans and Near Easterners largely came from the same ancient source as seen by both modern say Europeans and Near Easterners have large frequencies of the Near Eastern ancestral component. In this spreadsheet the WHG component is a rather pure one and the Near Eastern one is a rather pure one as well but it has something WHG like in it that is probably ancestral to the true WHG component found in Europe. Polako himself has confirmed this.

You seem to be in denial that both modern day Europeans and Near Easteners derive a large portion of their genes from the same Neolithic population that had it's roots in the Near East.
What denial ? I already know all of that. That was not my point,. My point is modern near-easterns are not exactly the same as the early near-easterns farmers. What happened in the near-east after the ENF is that it recevied admixture from various sources like East-Africa, Centra-South Asia,etc in various proportions. That is why you have components like Southwest_Asian very low in neolithic farmers, or absence of SSA/ East-African.
We'll have to wait unitl we get a very Early Farmer from the near-east.

[Black Wolf]

What denial ? I already know all of that. That was not my point,. My point is modern near-easterns are not exactly the same as the early near-easterns farmers. What happened in the near-east after the ENF is that it recevied admixture from various sources like East-Africa, Centra-South Asia,etc in various proportions. That is why you have components like Southwest_Asian very low in neolithic farmers, or absence of SSA/ East-African.
We'll have to wait unitl we get a very Early Farmer from the near-east.

Yeah and I already know that but still the fact does not change that the majority of the genes in modern day Near Easterners and many Europeans come from an ancient Neolithic Near Eastern source. Who cares if many modern day Near Eastern peoples have minor amounts of SSA admixture? The majority of their genes still come from an ancient Neolithic Near Eastern source which they share with all modern Europeans in large amounts especially Southern Europeans. That old Near Eastern source population does not have origins in Europe even though it has been there for quite a long time. Yes we do need an early farmer from the Near East but when those results come in it is extremely likely that he/she will be dominated by the Near Eastern ancestral component.

[Sikeliot]

It's outdated in the sense of how we understand it. We used to believe West Asian/Caucasus components were from recent Near Eastern admixture, but now we know this is an integral component in all Europeans, and is related to the North European component.

The more accurate way to assess "European" is by adding up NW African, SW Asian, and non-Caucasoid admixture and then subtracting from 100%. This is where we see Jews and Sicilians having a small amount of recent "exotic" admixture.

[Black Wolf]

It's outdated in the sense of how we understand it. We used to believe West Asian/Caucasus components were from recent Near Eastern admixture, but now we know this is an integral component in all Europeans, and is related to the North European component.

The more accurate way to assess "European" is by adding up NW African, SW Asian, and non-Caucasoid admixture and then subtracting from 100%. This is where we see Jews and Sicilians having a small amount of recent "exotic" admixture.

A lot of the Caucasus/West Asian component in Europe does come from more recent (Bronze Age and later) Near Eastern/Anatolian admixture especially when it comes to Southern Italy and Southeast Europe. It is by far dominated by alleles of Neolithic Near Eastern origin.

[Gaston]

What denial ? I already know all of that. That was not my point,. My point is modern near-easterns are not exactly the same as the early near-easterns farmers. What happened in the near-east after the ENF is that it recevied admixture from various sources like East-Africa, Centra-South Asia,etc in various proportions. That is why you have components like Southwest_Asian very low in neolithic farmers, or absence of SSA/ East-African.
We'll have to wait unitl we get a very Early Farmer from the near-east.

You talk about African admixture but you forget ANE admixture, which is the most recent one in the Near East and in most of Europe. ANE post-date East African admixture in the Near East and Egypt since you can still find bedouins in the Southern Levant and some Arabians with no ANE admixture. In Europe, only Sardinians lack ANE admixture.



It's outdated in the sense of how we understand it. We used to believe West Asian/Caucasus components were from recent Near Eastern admixture, but now we know this is an integral component in all Europeans, and is related to the North European component.

The more accurate way to assess "European" is by adding up NW African, SW Asian, and non-Caucasoid admixture and then subtracting from 100%. This is where we see Jews and Sicilians having a small amount of recent "exotic" admixture.

No. What is outdated is those obsolete components based on the level of endogamy of modern populations. We now have Ancient DNA to try to figure out real ancestral populations. The Loschbour specimen helped us realize that almost all Europeans trace less than 50% of their ancestry back to Mesolithic Europeans.


Components like West Asian, Caucasian, North European etc are now rather useless.

[Black Wolf]

You talk about African admixture but you forget ANE admixture, which is the most recent one in the Near East and in most of Europe. ANE post-date East African admixture in the Near East and Egypt since you can still find bedouins in the Southern Levant and some Arabians with no ANE admixture. In Europe, only Sardinians lack ANE admixture.




No. What is outdated is those obsolete components based on the level of endogamy of modern populations. We now have Ancient DNA to try to figure out real ancestral populations. The Loschbour specimen helped us realize that almost all Europeans trace less than 50% of their ancestry back to Mesolithic Europeans.


Components like West Asian, Caucasian, North European etc are now rather useless.

Very good point about the ANE admixture that is shared by both modern day Europeans and Near Easterners as well. That also links them together along with the Near Eastern component. As we know the main difference between modern day Europeans and Near Easterners is the fact that most modern day Europeans have large amounts of WHG ancestry whereas modern day near Easterners basically lack it.

Also yeah I agree that those old ADMIXTURE components such as West Asian and North European are now basically useless.