Why Do Southern Italians Have So Much Middle Eastern/North African Ancestry?

[MagnusAurelius]

Well it isn't so much, I just made that title to get your attention. The average middle eastern/north african ancestry among Sicilians and Calabrians is in the range of 10%. Even though north african/Middle Eastern ancestry is not non-caucasian, I still don't want it, I am half calabrian and very worried my father is gonna have a lot of middle eastern ancestry and I know he will have a lot if my results turn out to be 5-10% middle eastern.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/41342-Italian-Sicilian-and-Greek-23andme-results!

I don't think this ancestry came from Medieval times, the Caliphates in southern Italy were short lived , only lasted for 2 decades until the Normans removed them. This ancestry must have came from Roman times, from carthaginian settlements in Sicily and the eventual conquest of North Africa/Parts of the middle east by the Roman Empire which lead to many foreign people coming to Italy.

Still, it isn't significant and the only ancestry markers considered non-caucasian on 23andme are obviously South East Asian and Sub-Saharan African, I don't know about south asians though, that is a bit of a grey area.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?141431-23andme-for-Greek-islanders-and-Calabrese

Calabrese seem to have even less Black and Asian ancestry than sicilians but sicilians only have 0.1-1.5% of that depending on the person.

Anyway, I really hope I am R1B (about 33%of Calabrians are Haplogroup R) and don't have more than 3% middle eastern ancestry when I do my 23andme test.

[Sikeliot]

The ancestry is not from the Moors or Arab conquests, it is due to the fact that southern Italians and Sicilians are largely descended from West Asian Neolithic farmers and Paleolithic Mediterranean people, who would have had these components right from the start.

The Neolithic inhabitants of Sicily were known as the Sicanians, and it is likely that they already had the SW Asian and North African components, even if more arrived later.

[Gaston]

If you're from Southern Italy, you're screwed: around 60% Near Eastern farmer is the norm for your father's region. Historical North African ancestry varies, but it reaches at most ~10% in Sicily.



You really shouldn't be having this type of fears anyway, it's not healthy. You have to embrace who you are.
And by the way, I don't see why you wish to have a R1b haplogroup: while it's the most common in all of Western Europe today, it's one of the last to arrive in Europe actually.

[Sikeliot]

If you're from Southern Italy, you're screwed: around 60% Near Eastern farmer is the norm for your father's region. Historical North African ancestry varies, but it reaches at most ~10% in Sicily.

Yes. I just don't see why people perceive this as a bad thing. Frankly, I am tired of people trying to downplay their Mediterranean ancestry (and Neolithic West Asian ancestry is a foundation for all of Southern Europe), and trying to emphasize everything northern, as if their own ancestry is inferior.

[MagnusAurelius]

I just wanna be Haplogroup R because that one seems exclusive to Europeans except for some presence in India and a small part of Africa. R1B has been in Italy for a very long time, I am probably going to be really angry if I am E1B or any other one.

[MagnusAurelius]

If you're from Southern Italy, you're screwed: around 60% Near Eastern farmer is the norm for your father's region. Historical North African ancestry varies, but it reaches at most ~10% in Sicily.



You really shouldn't be having this type of fears anyway, it's not healthy. You have to embrace who you are.
And by the way, I don't see why you wish to have a R1b haplogroup: while it's the most common in all of Western Europe today, it's one of the last to arrive in Europe actually.


60% , what do you mean? I saw many 23andme results for Calabrians and the average for middle eastern/north african ancestry was the same as Sicily, around 10%.

[Vasconcelos]

I just wanna be Haplogroup R because that one seems exclusive to Europeans except for some presence in India and a small part of Africa. R1B has been in Italy for a very long time, I am probably going to be really angry if I am E1B or any other one.

Why does it matter? You are who you are, not a guy from 10000 years ago.

[Alessio]

The ancestry is not from the Moors or Arab conquests, it is due to the fact that southern Italians and Sicilians are largely descended from West Asian Neolithic farmers and Paleolithic Mediterranean people, who would have had these components right from the start.

The Neolithic inhabitants of Sicily were known as the Sicanians, and it is likely that they already had the SW Asian and North African components, even if more arrived later.


And the Sicels were central Italians who were pushed in to Sicily by the Umbrians and Sabines :viking1:

[Alessio]

''Anyway, I really hope I am R1B (about 33%of Calabrians are Haplogroup R) and don't have more than 3% middle eastern ancestry when I do my 23andme test.''

As for the R1b I'm considered lucky I guess; as for ''less than 3 % MENA'' I eventually after having tested my mom as well have got over 4 % Middle Eastern :laugh2: but'm not having any problems with it at all.


Well it isn't so much, I just made that title to get your attention. The average middle eastern/north african ancestry among Sicilians and Calabrians is in the range of 10%. Even though north african/Middle Eastern ancestry is not non-caucasian, I still don't want it, I am half calabrian and very worried my father is gonna have a lot of middle eastern ancestry and I know he will have a lot if my results turn out to be 5-10% middle eastern.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/41342-Italian-Sicilian-and-Greek-23andme-results!

I don't think this ancestry came from Medieval times, the Caliphates in southern Italy were short lived , only lasted for 2 decades until the Normans removed them. This ancestry must have came from Roman times, from carthaginian settlements in Sicily and the eventual conquest of North Africa/Parts of the middle east by the Roman Empire which lead to many foreign people coming to Italy.

Still, it isn't significant and the only ancestry markers considered non-caucasian on 23andme are obviously South East Asian and Sub-Saharan African, I don't know about south asians though, that is a bit of a grey area.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?141431-23andme-for-Greek-islanders-and-Calabrese

Calabrese seem to have even less Black and Asian ancestry than sicilians but sicilians only have 0.1-1.5% of that depending on the person.

Anyway, I really hope I am R1B (about 33%of Calabrians are Haplogroup R) and don't have more than 3% middle eastern ancestry when I do my 23andme test.

[Sikeliot]

23andme uses reference populations that make it difficult to tell the true ancestry since the "Italian" sample is southern Italians and thus there is Middle Eastern hidden in that in addition to what they score of the "Middle Eastern" component.

As for the Sikels, yes you are right. It is likely that the Sikels intermixed with the Sicilian natives but the Italic language dominated. I think this is where the minor North Euro comes from too.

[Arch Hades]

23andme uses reference populations that make it difficult to tell the true ancestry since the "Italian" sample is southern Italians and thus there is Middle Eastern hidden in that in addition to what they score of the "Middle Eastern" component.

As for the Sikels, yes you are right. It is likely that the Sikels intermixed with the Sicilian natives but the Italic language dominated. I think this is where the minor North Euro comes from too.

Do you have any 23andme data on Norhern Italians?

[Sikeliot]

Do you have any 23andme data on Norhern Italians?

They plot significantly northward.. just east of Iberians, and significantly northwest of Sicilians. They score Italian and French/German.

[MagnusAurelius]

Do you have any 23andme data on Norhern Italians?

Here are some Nothern Italian 23andme results, the average Nothern European Ancestry is 21.9% out of these 7 people. The issue is, 23andme lumps french people into the Nothern European Category, the true average Nothern European ancestry is probably around 10-12% for these 7 individuals. The French ancestry can be considered non-nothern European because of Italo-Celtic R1B DNA which has been in Italy for a very long time.


http://postimg.org/image/nzouc1gy1/

http://postimg.org/image/w2us56ozt/

http://postimg.org/image/e9vfs33m1/

http://postimg.org/image/g08wpjle1/full/

http://postimg.org/image/4mmdecavd/

http://postimg.org/image/v50f9bk7d/

http://postimg.org/image/e37l785c9/

[Alessio]

Kill yourself before the results are in while you still can !

[Alessio]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?137049-23andme-AC-amp-GSM-North-Italians


Do you have any 23andme data on Norhern Italians?

[Ctwentysevenj]

Here we go again.

[Ctwentysevenj]

I thought all Italians are from the Punjab!

[Styrian Mujo]

I think we all know why Italians have high MENA admixture.

[Ctwentysevenj]

I think we all know why Italians have high MENA admixture.

Then again they may have more Swedish in them!

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I just wanna be Haplogroup R because that one seems exclusive to Europeans except for some presence in India and a small part of Africa. R1B has been in Italy for a very long time, I am probably going to be really angry if I am E1B or any other one.

I think there is nothing to get angry about if you turn out to be non-Haplogroup R. there is nothing wrong with not being one. like someone said here, You are who you are. the not being R haplgroup is no big deal, me I thought was going to be Haplogroup R1b, but I came out to be J2.

[Alessio]

They plot significantly northward.. just east of Iberians, and significantly northwest of Sicilians. They score Italian and French/German.

And ''Broadly Northern European''

[Muhammad_pbuh]

It's a gift from Almighty Allah. You MUST pray the God for this gift everyday. :)

Those MENA admixtures made Greeks, Italians, Spanish, and Portuguese people the great ones. Why? Because your Middle Eastern origin is the real cause of your Greek and Roman culture. It gave you this: CIVILIZATION Genes. :)

Embrace it. :)

[Black Wolf]

Wow inferiority complex much.

[Hadouken]

yeah I also hope you dont have much Middle Eastern because you seem to be a pussy and it would be embarrassing for us if you had much Middle Eastern

[Styrian Mujo]

Yes. I just don't see why people perceive this as a bad thing. Frankly, I am tired of people trying to downplay their Mediterranean ancestry (and Neolithic West Asian ancestry is a foundation for all of Southern Europe), and trying to emphasize everything northern, as if their own ancestry is inferior.
Because sadly it is inferior. I wish it wasn't but it is what it is and it's only natural that southern Europeans downplay their North African/Middle Eastern ancestry. Just look at how MENA and south euro guys drool over northern girls. Simply put their instinct is telling them they need to improve their gene pool.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Slaves plus conquest. Some of it might be there for thousands of years before that though. Like tartessians etc. may have been north african like.

[Alan Weiss]

Italians in the south are basically the same stock as levantine populations.
The main difference between levantines and southern italians/Sicilians is RELIGION.

[themrdude1990]

Italians in the south are basically the same stock as levantine populations.
The main difference between levantines and southern italians/Sicilians is RELIGION.

Not really lived in levant for 2 years they're totally different but what you could have said is that the majority of levant can pass in south italy definitely not all

[Alan Weiss]

"Not really lived in levant for 2 years they're totally different but what you could have said is that the majority of levant can pass in south italy definitely not all"
Well everything you posted is pure bullshit.
Physically Syrians and Lebanese are identical to Sicilians and southern italians.
You might want to Google a pic of the blue eyed president of Syria and while your are at it check out his wife's pic.

[themrdude1990]

"Not really lived in levant for 2 years they're totally different but what you could have said is that the majority of levant can pass in south italy definitely not all"
Well everything you posted is pure bullshit.
Physically Syrians and Lebanese are identical to Sicilians and southern italians.
You might want to Google a pic of the blue eyed president of Syria and while your are at it check out his wife's pic.

56426

This is in syria (levant country) so this what southern italians look like?

[shdzs427]

I still don't want it, I am half calabrian and very worried my father is gonna have a lot of middle eastern ancestry and I know he will have a lot if my results turn out to be 5-10% middle eastern.

Anyway, I really hope I am R1B (about 33%of Calabrians are Haplogroup R) and don't have more than 3% middle eastern ancestry when I do my 23andme test.

You are on this planet because of those genes...be grateful to exist.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The ancestry is not from the Moors or Arab conquests, it is due to the fact that southern Italians and Sicilians are largely descended from West Asian Neolithic farmers and Paleolithic Mediterranean people, who would have had these components right from the start.

The Neolithic inhabitants of Sicily were known as the Sicanians, and it is likely that they already had the SW Asian and North African components, even if more arrived later.

I doubt that is true for either group, and there is absolutely no genetic proof that's the case. If that were the source then greece would be fully darker (and way more) than all of southern europe including sicily etc. which is not the case. I know I know 'slavic invasion' nonsense again explains all this, right?

[JoeyGee8688]

I'm half Calabrian and I don't get any MENA on my 23&ME... And rarely any more than fractional percentages of any African on the more extensive tests.

[Sikeliot]

I doubt that is true for either group, and there is absolutely no genetic proof that's the case. If that were the source then greece would be fully darker (and way more) than all of southern europe including sicily etc. which is not the case. I know I know 'slavic invasion' nonsense again explains all this, right?

Greece would have been more in a direct line of Indo-European migration, so they would not have necessarily been darker even if they are right next to Anatolia. So is Bulgaria, keep in mind, but both groups have more North Euro than southern Italians because they are closer to the Russian steppes.

[Morena]

People tend to exaggerate the amount of SSA/MENA admixture that people of Southern Europe have. Outside of Cyprus, it tends to hover at less than ten percent, and that is being generous (Spain it's 3% or less). SSA tends to be in fractions of percentages (except for Portugal, again, about 3%). The 23&Me scores people post on here pretty much give it a rest.
I really don't think that is enough to change the character and look of an entire people. That's simply not how genetics work. If people were originally Nordic looking, then such a small amount wouldn't change that after a few generations. After all, Fins have significant Mongoloid admixture and they are very fair and blue eyed.

[Damião de Góis]

People tend to exaggerate the amount of SSA/MENA admixture that people of Southern Europe have. Outside of Cyprus, it tends to hover at less than ten percent, and that is being generous (Spain it's 3% or less). SSA tends to be in fractions of percentages (except for Portugal, again, about 3%). The 23&Me scores people post on here pretty much give it a rest.
I really don't think that is enough to change the character and look of an entire people. That's simply not how genetics work. If people were originally Nordic looking, then such a small amount wouldn't change that after a few generations. After all, Fins have significant Mongoloid admixture and they are very fair and blue eyed.

Where are you getting those figures from?

[MsSPF]

Yes. I just don't see why people perceive this as a bad thing. Frankly, I am tired of people trying to downplay their Mediterranean ancestry (and Neolithic West Asian ancestry is a foundation for all of Southern Europe), and trying to emphasize everything northern, as if their own ancestry is inferior.

Thank you. :thumb001:

To complete what it is has been already said, Sicily was occupied by Arabs/Berbers about two centuries. It can partly explained these connections.

[Morena]

Where are you getting those figures from?

People who post their 23&me scores on here as well as general graphs that show how much admixture people have of what. There was a portuguese thread that showed a lot of Portuguese having about 3% SSA at most. This was a lot less than some people claim, who state that the Portuguese are half black or some nonsense. You know, the usual we hear from Nordicists.

[Damião de Góis]

People who post their 23&me scores on here as well as general graphs that show how much admixture people have of what. There was a portuguese thread that showed a lot of Portuguese having about 3% SSA at most. This was a lot less than some people claim, who state that the Portuguese are half black or some nonsense. You know, the usual we hear from Nordicists.

I've done 23andme and seen a lot of portuguese results. Why don't you show me the links to those threads?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

The ancestry is not from the Moors or Arab conquests, it is due to the fact that southern Italians and Sicilians are largely descended from West Asian Neolithic farmers and Paleolithic Mediterranean people, who would have had these components right from the start.

The Neolithic inhabitants of Sicily were known as the Sicanians, and it is likely that they already had the SW Asian and North African components, even if more arrived later.

Yes, listen to Sikeliot. He is right. And even all Europeans have Neolithic ancestry, none of us are safe - so in the end it doesn't really matter. Even Swedes have a good amount of Neolithic blood in them, and that's okay. All European peoples are the result of Mesolithic/Neolithic mixing. Also, some northern Europeans who are mistaken for Crypto-Jews are mostly just Neolithic - looking people. The northern Europeans still have a lot of Neolithic DNA, that's why some northern Europeans can look like Rowan Atkinson. It's Neolithic genetics :D

[SupaThug]

People who post their 23&me scores on here as well as general graphs that show how much admixture people have of what. There was a portuguese thread that showed a lot of Portuguese having about 3% SSA at most. This was a lot less than some people claim, who state that the Portuguese are half black or some nonsense. You know, the usual we hear from Nordicists.

No way the average portuguese is 3% SSA!Anyway,the SSA in Iberia is ancient and not due to recent african ancestors!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

No way the average portuguese is 3% SSA!Anyway,the SSA in Iberia is ancient and not due to recent african ancestors!


There's nothing to prove that and it's very doubtful.

[SupaThug]

There's nothing to prove that and it's very doubtful.

So you are an adicct of those theories that portuguese people are part black ?

[Sikeliot]

No way the average portuguese is 3% SSA!Anyway,the SSA in Iberia is ancient and not due to recent african ancestors!

On the islands it is.

[Damião de Góis]

On the islands it is.

No it isn't. The azoreans i share with score the same as mainlanders. And your admixed madeiran from 23andme doesn't prove anything.

[Sikeliot]

No it isn't. The azoreans i share with score the same as mainlanders. And your admixed madeiran from 23andme doesn't prove anything.

Mtdna evidence, and the Madeirans that I and other ABF members share with, confirm it to me.

[Damião de Góis]

Mtdna evidence, and the Madeirans that I and other ABF members share with, confirm it to me.

Sharing with recently admixed people proves nothing. Madeirans (real ones) are indistinguishable from the rest of portuguese. But of course, you wouldn't know anything about that.

[Sikeliot]

Sharing with recently admixed people proves nothing. Madeirans (real ones) are indistinguishable from the rest of portuguese. But of course, you wouldn't know anything about that.

Then let's see some of their results. I am telling you, these "recently admixed" results as you say, which they are not, are people who on sight, going by appearance you'd expect to be fully European.

[Morena]

No way the average portuguese is 3% SSA!Anyway,the SSA in Iberia is ancient and not due to recent african ancestors!

3% is barely anything. It's nothing to worry about, especially since there is little you can do about it. You can't pick your ancestors. It doesn't make anyone less European. Most Europeans at the periphery have some admixture anyway.

[Highlands]

It's Neolithic.

[SupaThug]

3% is barely anything. It's nothing to worry about, especially since there is little you can do about it. You can't pick your ancestors. It doesn't make anyone less European. Most Europeans at the periphery have some admixture anyway.

I have recent african ancestors from the colonial times of Brazil,I'd be the last one to deny any african ancestry.I am just saying that native portuguese people do not show signs of recent african ancestry,it is all ancient and not recent like mine.

[Damião de Góis]

3% is barely anything. It's nothing to worry about, especially since there is little you can do about it. You can't pick your ancestors. It doesn't make anyone less European. Most Europeans at the periphery have some admixture anyway.

I'm more worried about the truth and about lies. Having foreigners make up a number is sort of annoying.

[Sikeliot]

I have recent african ancestors from the colonial times of Brazil,I'd be the last one to deny any african ancestry.I am just saying that native portuguese people do not show signs of recent african ancestry,it is all ancient and not recent like mine.

Except in the islands as I said. They experienced slavery there and the mtdna shows it also.

[Damião de Góis]

Except in the islands as I said. They experienced slavery there and the mtdna shows it also.

Azoreans and Madeirans look african admixed now? I thought you said before that they didn't look it. You need to be at least coherent in your trolling.

[Sikeliot]

Azoreans and Madeirans look african admixed now? I thought you said before that they didn't look it. You need to be at least coherent in your trolling.

Genetically, not phenotypically.

[Damião de Góis]

Genetically, not phenotypically.

I've already said your family and the madeiran you posted don't count as madeirans of portuguese descent. So trying to make exceptions into a rule is kind of retarted.

[Dylan]

I just wanna be Haplogroup R because that one seems exclusive to Europeans except for some presence in India and a small part of Africa. R1B has been in Italy for a very long time, I am probably going to be really angry if I am E1B or any other one.

I'm R1B and I think it's the most boring haplotype ever. wanna trade?

[Sikeliot]

I've already said your family and the madeiran you posted don't count as madeirans of portuguese descent. So trying to make exceptions into a rule is kind of retarted.

All Madeirans look white pretty much but how do you know a large amount of those white looking people you assume to be 100% Portuguese do not score similarly? Unless you have results that show something different... guess what. You don't.

[Damião de Góis]

All Madeirans look white pretty much but how do you know a large amount of those white looking people you assume to be 100% Portuguese do not score similarly? Unless you have results that show something different... guess what. You don't.

Unlike you i don't stalk people. I'm not gonna stalk madeirans on 23andme and post their results here. I know them pretty well to know they are not different from us.

[Sikeliot]

Unlike you i don't stalk people. I'm not gonna stalk madeirans on 23andme and post their results here. I know them pretty well to know they are not different from us.

Because 5% shows. Right. If you don't have proof then what you are saying is conjecture. Also, some of them added me, thank you.

[Cristiano viejo]

Except in the islands as I said. They experienced slavery there and the mtdna shows it also.

Madeira was not the only place that practiced the slave trade. What about Liverpool, Bristol etc, the Thirteen Colonies etc? does that make them being Blacks?

[Sikeliot]

Madeira was not the only place that practiced the slave trade. What about Liverpool, Bristol etc, the Thirteen Colonies etc? does that make them being Blacks?

Show me proof of African mtdna and autosomal genes in Liverpool and Bristol.

[Damião de Góis]

Because 5% shows. Right. If you don't have proof then what you are saying is conjecture. Also, some of them added me, thank you.

Do i need proof that Madeirans are not descendents of slaves? Pick up an history book, or visit the island.

[Cristiano viejo]

Show me proof of African mtdna and autosomal genes in Liverpool and Bristol.
1- that proves nothing, just that your theory about slave trade is weak.
2- http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?167639-Rare-African-(negroid)-DNA-Discovered-in-White-aboriginal-British-Males/page5

[Petalpusher]

With Eurogenes averages, it's easy to compare. Portugal has less than 1% SSA (0.85) and comparable levels of North African with "Italian Jewish" (2.0 something)

[Sikeliot]

Do i need proof that Madeirans are not descendents of slaves? Pick up an history book, or visit the island.

You keep ignoring the points that are inconvenient.

1. History suggests that there were slaves on the island, that have in turn been assimilated into the white majority.
2. Anything under 5% autosomal DNA will not show... it's there, you just don't see it.

[Morena]

With Eurogenes averages, it's easy to compare. Portugal has less than 1% SSA (0.85) and comparable levels of North African with "Italian Jewish" (2.0 something)

I would be really interested in seeing the averages that you saw. I have seen all sorts of averages, some of them even pointing to a laughably large 10% admixture, which is done by people who obviously have never seen anyone with 10% SSA admixture. It seems that the science isn't settled. What markers are used? How can we determine the difference between a recent admixture and something more recent.

[Petalpusher]

I would be really interested in seeing the averages that you saw. I have seen all sorts of averages, some of them even pointing to a laughably large 10% admixture, which is done by people who obviously have never seen anyone with 10% SSA admixture. It seems that the science isn't settled. What markers are used? How can we determine the difference between a recent admixture and something more recent.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177

It gives a scale, probably different than the one you get on let's say speculative mode of 23andme, but a scale nonetheless between all countries and their sub ethnicities. Yes 10% SSA for Portugal sounds ridiculous, it's atypical cases. I share with an American at 12% SSA, she clearly doesn't look European, you have no a doubt at first sight she s mixed in some way unlike the vast majority of even the most Southern Europeans.

[Morena]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177

It gives a scale, probably different than the one you get on let's say speculative mode of 23andme, but a scale nonetheless between all countries and their sub ethnicities. Yes 10% SSA for Portugal sounds ridiculous, it's atypical cases. I share with an American at 12% SSA, she clearly doesn't look European, you have no a doubt at first sight she s mixed in some way unlike the vast majority of even the most Southern Europeans.

Thanks for the chart! It is pretty amazing.

[Gaston]

With Eurogenes averages, it's easy to compare. Portugal has less than 1% SSA (0.85) and comparable levels of North African with "Italian Jewish" (2.0 something)

It's actually much more than that. The Western third of Iberia is 5 to 10% North African-like, with only some pockets in Andalusia/Murcia scoring as much or more (Canaries excluded). It's similar to North African levels of Sicilians and Maltese. For the rest of Iberia, there is a decrease the more East and North you go, the least North African having the same levels as Italians and some French.



As for the 10% SSA Portuguese, it is possible in isolated communities with known recent slavery past. But that would be an outlier and not considered "native".

[Cristiano viejo]

It's actually much more than that. The Western third of Iberia is 5 to 10% North African-like, with only some pockets in Andalusia/Murcia scoring as much or more (Canaries excluded). It's similar to North African levels of Sicilians and Maltese. For the rest of Iberia, there is a decrease the more East and North you go, the least North African having the same levels as Italians and some French.
No, the high level in Spain happens in the north, in Cantabria, with Pasiegos (a historical isolated population) scoring more than 20% e1b1.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Italians in the south are basically the same stock as levantine populations.
The main difference between levantines and southern italians/Sicilians is RELIGION.

Not true. They are mainly European

[Ctwentysevenj]

Thank you. :thumb001:

To complete what it is has been already said, Sicily was occupied by Arabs/Berbers about two centuries. It can partly explained these connections.

The Arabs were only there for 75 years, unlike in Spain they were there for centuries.

[Cristiano viejo]

The Arabs were only there for 75 years, unlike in Spain they were there for centuries.

Oh again the obssesed-with Spain guy :lightbul: what does has to do Spain with this thread, complex guy?
You should learn history about your own "country", Arabs in Sicily were 300 years (aka "for centuries"), not 75.

Also you should know that Moors also were in North Italy (Valley of Aosta) since the 938 until the year 1000.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Oh again the obssesed-with Spain guy :lightbul: what does has to do Spain with this thread, complex guy?
You should learn history about your own "country", Arabs in Sicily were 300 years (aka "for centuries"), not 75.

Also you should know that Moors also were in North Italy (Valley of Aosta) since the 938 until the year 1000.
I think I know what's his problem here...I think his problem is, Complex!

[Kamal900]

Most of the west Asia admixture in Southern Italians is from the neolithic period, and its mostly due to its close proximity to NA and West Asia as well since that the early west Asian farmers mostly populated in areas that are close to Asia like Cyprus, Aegean Islands and etc.

[Sikeliot]

Most of the west Asia admixture in Southern Italians is from the neolithic period, and its mostly due to its close proximity to NA and West Asia as well since that the early west Asian farmers mostly populated in areas that are close to Asia like Cyprus, Aegean Islands and etc.

What I think happened, and this is the most logical explanation, is that the people of Crete, Dodecanese, and Sicily/Calabria are all highly related. Most likely, the people who settled in Crete passed through the Dodecanese islands first, and then from Crete, to Sicily and Calabria. All of these regions, due to their isolation and later MENA influences from Phoenicia and Anatolia, retained a highly distinct genetic profile than people in places like central Italy and mainland Greece, who received more Indo-European and other Northern influences instead. This is why on 23andme, Sicilians, Calabrese and the southernmost Aegean islands score highly "Italian" and "MENA" but less "Balkan" than mainland Greeks.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Oh again the obssesed-with Spain guy :lightbul: what does has to do Spain with this thread, complex guy?
You should learn history about your own "country", Arabs in Sicily were 300 years (aka "for centuries"), not 75.

Also you should know that Moors also were in North Italy (Valley of Aosta) since the 938 until the year 1000.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy


75 years.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Oh again the obssesed-with Spain guy :lightbul: what does has to do Spain with this thread, complex guy?
You should learn history about your own "country", Arabs in Sicily were 300 years (aka "for centuries"), not 75.

Also you should know that Moors also were in North Italy (Valley of Aosta) since the 938 until the year 1000.

Couldn't find anything on the Internet of the moors in Valle 'd Aosta.

[SupaThug]

Couldn't find anything on the Internet of the moors in Valle 'd Aosta.

Man,I understand that you try to show people that italians are not MENAs,but why do you need to bring up Spain and the moorish invasion so often?

[Cristiano viejo]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy


75 years.
You are talking about continental South Italy. I am referring Sicily (South Italy too last time I checked it).


Couldn't find anything on the Internet of the moors in Valle 'd Aosta.
Really? wow internet in Australia must be quite deficient :rolleyes:
Not so difficult :coffee:

I wait at least you know "your" Italian language :)


Dipoi, nel resto del sec. X (938-1000) la Valle d'Aosta come le valli vicine dovette subire l'invasione dei Saraceni, che, attraverso le terre di Borgogna, dal Giura avevano aggirato il lago Lemano e si erano gettati sulle Alpi Pennine. Padroni del Vallese, di là fecero delle incursioni nei Grigioni e nelle altre parti della Svizzera. Avevano come baluardi il Gran S. Bernardo e le altre montagne, dove si erano fortificati elevando alcuni castelli di cui si ammirano ancora gli avanzi imponenti (ad esempio il castello di Montmajeur, all'entrata della Valgrisanche). Contro di loro reagirono, coalizzati, i signori del paese e gli abitanti, i quali, anche sotto la spinta di S. Bernardo da Mentone, riuscirono finalmente a vincerli, sterminandoli in parte

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/...dia_Italiana)/

They left a nice present

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Tour_Tornalla_7.JPG/280px-Tour_Tornalla_7.JPG


La Tornalla o Tour Tornalla è un'antica torre di epoca medievale che dall'alto di un promontorio sorveglia dal lato nord-ovest il villaggio di Crétaz di Oyace...

... la sua costruzione è stata attribuita dalla tradizione a un gruppo di Saraceni esuli in Valpelline intorno all'anno Mille.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornalla_(Oyace)

About Piamonte :thumb001:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_sVqvuGjL0

[Kabul]

The answer is very easy to find

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy

[Ctwentysevenj]

Another Italian/Spanish war

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?142368-Now-a-different-type-of-Italian-Spanish-war-not-who-is-whiter-but-who-makes-a-better-aircraft