This is just how far north Greeks plot compared to Sicilians... results to prove...

[Sikeliot]

Raine, this is for you and for everyone else on here who says I am exaggerating the differences. Stop saying I "exaggerate" and just look at the results. But I will make it nice and easy for you all to understand.


LAKONIA, FAR SOUTHERN GREECE:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 30.25
2 Atlantic_Med 25.03
3 North_European 24.32
4 Southwest_Asian 9.66
5 Gedrosia 8.04
6 Northwest_African 2.56
7 Siberian 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06




NORTHERN PELOPONNESE:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.78
2 Atlantic_Med 28.29
3 North_European 22.65
4 Southwest_Asian 7.97
5 Gedrosia 5.92
6 Northwest_African 1.5
7 East_Asian 0.74
8 East_African 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.75
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 6.36
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.13
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 10.05
5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 10.97
6 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.52
7 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.53
8 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 12.32
9 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 12.55
10 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 12.68
11 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.76
12 Romanians (Behar) 13.86
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 15.15
14 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.31
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 18.32
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 20.39
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.62
18 Cypriots (Behar) 25.11
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 25.98
20 Turks (Behar) 26.1

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.9% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.4
2 54.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 45.2% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.46
3 86.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.6% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.47
4 88.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.6% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.53
5 88.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.6% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.54
6 88.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.7% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.56
7 86% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 14% Balkars (Yunusbayev) @ 2.57
8 87.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.59
9 87.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.8% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.59
10 87.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.4% English (Dodecad) @ 2.6
11 52.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 47.8% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.6
12 86.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 13.7% North_Ossetians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.61
13 87.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.6% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.62
14 87.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.1% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.64
15 88.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.9% British (Dodecad) @ 2.64
16 54.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 45.2% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.64
17 85.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 14.2% Adygei (HGDP) @ 2.68
18 88.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.8% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.74
19 52.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 47.8% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.8
20 52.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 47.3% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.82



EPIRUS, NORTHWEST GREECE:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.47
2 Atlantic_Med 28.75
3 North_European 24.26
4 Southwest_Asian 7.68
5 Gedrosia 2.93
6 Northwest_African 1.91
7 East_Asian 1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.87
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.46
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 9.04
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 10.59
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 11.06
6 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.33
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 11.49
8 Romanians (Behar) 12.63
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.69
10 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.94
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 12.99
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.23
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 15.37
14 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.4
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.67
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.74
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 25.29
18 Cypriots (Behar) 26.14
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.15
20 Galicia (1000Genomes) 27.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.5% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 46.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.84
2 54% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 46% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.15
3 85.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 14.8% German (Dodecad) @ 2.2
4 88.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.4% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.27
5 88.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.4% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.28
6 83.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 16.4% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.37
7 50.1% Romanians (Behar) + 49.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.47
8 86.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.51
9 86.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 13.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.55
10 87.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.3% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.62
11 87.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.7% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.65
12 53% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 47% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.67
13 87.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.6% English (Dodecad) @ 2.67
14 87.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.8% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.7
15 55.4% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 44.6% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.71
16 88.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.7% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.71
17 56.1% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 43.9% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.76
18 88.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.7% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.77
19 88.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.7% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.79
20 88.2% Greek (Dodecad) + 11.8% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.8



MACEDONIA, NORTHEAST GREECE:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.99
2 Atlantic_Med 26.45
3 North_European 23.84
4 Southwest_Asian 8.56
5 Gedrosia 6.2
6 South_Asian 0.58
7 Northwest_African 0.37
8 Southeast_Asian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.65
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.53
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.34
4 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.44
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 11.86
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.22
7 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.49
8 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 12.5
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.69
10 Romanians (Behar) 12.95
11 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.03
12 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.22
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.19
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 18.96
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.44
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.44
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.61
18 Cypriots (Behar) 24.66
19 Turks (Behar) 25.04
20 Hungarians (Behar) 28.07

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.3% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 47.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.28
2 50.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 49.1% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.64
3 56.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.3% German (Dodecad) @ 2.86
4 52.8% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 47.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.92
5 51.4% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 48.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.99
6 85.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 14.6% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.01
7 90.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.6% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.02
8 72.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 27.5% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.03
9 69.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 30.2% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.03
10 90.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.9% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.07
11 87.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 12.9% German (Dodecad) @ 3.08
12 91% Greek (Dodecad) + 9% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.19
13 50.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 49.5% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.2
14 90.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.7% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.23
15 92.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.6% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 3.23
16 90.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.7% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.25
17 92.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.4% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 3.28
18 90.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.9% Polish (Dodecad) @ 3.29
19 92.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.6% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.31
20 92% Greek (Dodecad) + 8% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.32



LAKONIA:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.51
2 Atlantic_Med 28.15
3 North_European 20.81
4 Southwest_Asian 9.07
5 Gedrosia 5.79
6 Southeast_Asian 1.16
7 South_Asian 0.8
8 Northwest_African 0.49
9 Sub_Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 4.53
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.08
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 7.59
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.71
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.96
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 9.97
7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.72
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 11.1
9 TSI30 (Metspalu) 11.14
10 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 14.29
11 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 14.52
12 Romanians (Behar) 15.6
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 16.05
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.62
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.95
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.96
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.43
18 Cypriots (Behar) 23.29
19 Turks (Behar) 24.99
20 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 38% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.23
2 60% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 40% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.42
3 60.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 39.5% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.67
4 64.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 35.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.69
5 91.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.2% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.76
6 92.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.9% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.84
7 92% Greek (Dodecad) + 8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.84
8 91.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.3% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.86
9 92.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.9% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.86
10 91.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.2% British (Dodecad) @ 2.86
11 90.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.9
12 91.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.91
13 91.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.4% English (Dodecad) @ 2.91
14 91.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.92
15 61.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 38.3% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.94
16 83.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.8% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.95
17 83.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.1% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.95
18 84% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.95
19 82.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.7% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.96
20 91.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.5% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.97


PELOPONNESE:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 28.91
2 Atlantic_Med 26.16
3 North_European 22.75
4 Southwest_Asian 11.89
5 Gedrosia 7.92
6 Northwest_African 1.13
7 Southeast_Asian 0.91
8 East_Asian 0.27
9 Siberian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.22
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.33
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.94
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.86
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.91
6 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 13.23
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.24
8 Sicilian (Dodecad) 13.28
9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 13.84
10 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.92
11 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 14.14
12 Romanians (Behar) 14.37
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 16.33
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 18.52
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.74
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 20
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 24.09
18 Cypriots (Behar) 25.91
19 Turks (Behar) 26.13
20 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.49

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.7% Druze (HGDP) + 48.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.22
2 53.7% Druze (HGDP) + 46.3% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.39
3 50.3% Druze (HGDP) + 49.7% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.4
4 61.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 38.4% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.45
5 52.7% Druze (HGDP) + 47.3% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.59
6 52.7% Druze (HGDP) + 47.3% English (Dodecad) @ 2.66
7 52.3% Druze (HGDP) + 47.7% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.69
8 61.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 38.3% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.1
9 56.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.1% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.1
10 55.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 44.5% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 3.21
11 54.7% Druze (HGDP) + 45.3% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 3.26
12 54.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.4% German (Dodecad) @ 3.4
13 54.6% Druze (HGDP) + 45.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.43
14 54.5% Druze (HGDP) + 45.5% Irish (Dodecad) @ 3.45
15 59.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 40.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 3.45
16 53.6% Druze (HGDP) + 46.4% British (Dodecad) @ 3.48
17 59.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 40.7% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 3.56
18 53.3% Druze (HGDP) + 46.7% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 3.58
19 54.1% Druze (HGDP) + 45.9% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 3.75
20 59.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 40.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.75


MESSINIA:


# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 30.07
2 Atlantic_Med 27.53
3 North_European 22.55
4 Southwest_Asian 11.61
5 Gedrosia 5.45
6 South_Asian 0.79
7 Northwest_African 0.74
8 Siberian 0.69
9 East_African 0.57

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.04
2 Greek (Dodecad) 7.34
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 9.27
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.19
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.76
6 TSI30 (Metspalu) 11.77
7 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.04
8 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 12.62
9 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 12.65
10 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 12.96
11 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 13.42
12 Romanians (Behar) 14.05
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 15.44
14 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.61
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 17.98
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 19.64
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 24.5
18 Cypriots (Behar) 25.39
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 25.87
20 Galicia (1000Genomes) 26.61

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.8% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.84
2 82.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.2% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.85
3 62.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 37.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.28
4 78.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.34
5 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.39
6 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.4
7 80.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.6% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.41
8 83.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.44
9 82.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.9% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.5
10 70.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 29.2% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.6
11 80.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.8% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.62
12 78% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.72
13 57.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 42.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.77
14 79.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.1% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.78
15 80.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.8% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.89
16 55.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 44.5% German (Dodecad) @ 3.03
17 61.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 38.9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.07
18 56.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.6% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 3.14
19 77.4% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 22.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.16
20 59.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 40.4% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 3.21




Now for comparison, a fairly typical Sicilian result.

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.89
2 Atlantic_Med 28.94
3 Southwest_Asian 12.84
4 North_European 9.15
5 Gedrosia 8.68
6 Northwest_African 4.54
7 East_African 0.68
8 Siberian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 4.6
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.03
3 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 6.4
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 8.26
5 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 8.35
6 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 8.43
7 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.06
8 Greek (Dodecad) 12.37
9 Tuscan (HGDP) 14.86
10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 14.98
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 15.91
12 Cypriots (Behar) 16.67
13 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.54
14 Lebanese (Behar) 20.59
15 Turks (Behar) 21.88
16 N_Italian (Dodecad) 22.11
17 North_Italian (HGDP) 22.85
18 Syrians (Behar) 23.18
19 Druze (HGDP) 23.63
20 Jordanians (Behar) 24.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.5% Druze (HGDP) + 42.5% Andalucia (1000Genomes) @ 2.38
2 94% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 6% Brahui (HGDP) @ 2.46
3 93.3% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 6.7% Makrani (HGDP) @ 2.5
4 93.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 6.4% Balochi (HGDP) @ 2.56
5 60.9% Druze (HGDP) + 39.1% Valencia (1000Genomes) @ 2.77
6 56.3% Druze (HGDP) + 43.7% Baleares (1000Genomes) @ 2.96
7 95.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 4.8% Brahui (HGDP) @ 2.99
8 94.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 5.5% Makrani (HGDP) @ 2.99
9 59.6% Druze (HGDP) + 40.4% Spaniards (Behar) @ 3.03
10 94.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 5.1% Balochi (HGDP) @ 3.05
11 89.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.8% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 3.06
12 61.5% Druze (HGDP) + 38.5% Aragon (1000Genomes) @ 3.06
13 59% Druze (HGDP) + 41% Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes) @ 3.08
14 89.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.4% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 3.1
15 79.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.4% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 3.11
16 89.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.6% British (Dodecad) @ 3.12
17 72.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.6% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 3.14
18 89.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 3.14
19 89.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 10.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.16
20 61.3% Druze (HGDP) + 38.7% Cantabria (1000Genomes) @ 3.17

[Sikeliot]

Come on, continue to deny it and pretend they're the same. There is nothing to support that idea.

[Ylla]

Thats like my result !

[Sikeliot]

Thats like my result !

Yes. I am not surprised because whether they look alike or not, mainland Greeks and Albanians are genetically similar. I am sick of us all having to pretend otherwise to make Greeks here feel good about being a pure Mediterranean population (they're not) with 100% continuity to ancient times. No. You plot north of Sicily, next to your Balkan kin and denying it does no one any favors and is academically dishonest.

[Hellenas]

I am sick of us all having to pretend otherwise to make Greeks here feel good about being a pure Mediterranean population (they're not) with 100% continuity to ancient times.

Ancient Greeks were not 100% Mediterraneans as you falsely claim and Greeks have 100% racially continuity, in case you ignore it.

[wvwvw]

Umm what Northern breathen besides the Albanians? The Serbs, the Bulgarians or the Serbobulgarians of FYROM? Incidentally even Albanians get Sicilians in their matches.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Umm what Northern breathen besides the Albanians? The Serbs, the Bulgarians or the Serbobulgarians of FYROM? Incidentally even Albanians get Sicilians in their matches.

He showed in some of the results posted here that Greeks do have significant percentages of Northeast European DNA.

[Sikeliot]

He showed in some of the results posted here that Greeks do have significant percentages of Northeast European DNA.

Correct.
But islanders do not.

I am also sick of them claiming mainlanders and islanders have no differences... it is not true.

[wvwvw]

He showed in some of the results posted here that Greeks do have significant percentages of Northeast European DNA.

Still not enough to pull them towards Bulgarians/Serbs let alone Slavs. It's like saying the Germans breathen of S.Italians to the north because they score some central european.

[Sikeliot]

Still not enough to pull them towards Bulgarians/Serbs let alone Slavs. It's like saying the Germans breathen of S.Italians to the north because they score some central european.

This is flawed because no southern Italian plots as far north as typical mainland Greeks.. there is less German-like ancestry there than there is Russian-like ancestry in Greeks.

[wvwvw]

Correct.
But islanders do not.

I am also sick of them claiming mainlanders and islanders have no differences... it is not true.

Depends. Greek islanders are quite diverse themselves. Also depends on the island. Many islanders have also become mainlanders and vice versa.

[wvwvw]

This is flawed because no southern Italian plots as far north as typical mainland Greeks.. there is less German-like ancestry there than there is Russian-like ancestry in Greeks.

North-east European is not Russian. Even Northern Italians score it. Greeks may have more Northern European but not enough to pull them much more Northern than S.Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Depends. Greek islanders are quite diverse themselves. Also depends on the island. Many islanders have also become mainlanders and vice versa.

Euboea (part of Central Greece administratively but also an island), Samos, Lemnos, and some people from the Cyclades seem to have more mainland ancestry, but Cretans and Chios plot at the far south of the Sicilian cluster. Also, the two Dodecanese results I have, end up in the middle of the Sicilian cluster.

[Sikeliot]

North-east European is not Russian. Even Northern Italians score it. Greeks may have more Northern European but not enough to pull them much more Northern than S.Italians.

They have roughly double the amount of North European. The difference of 10-12% in southern Italians (with variation -- some as low as 7%) versus 20-25% in mainlander Greeks.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Correct.
But islanders do not.

I am also sick of them claiming mainlanders and islanders have no differences... it is not true.

you can be sick as much as you want, islanders, as a group, have no differences from most of mainlanders, as a group again. the percentage of northeastern autosomal dna in both, is 5-10%

Northern mainland on the other hand has 10-15%

[Sikeliot]

you can be sick as much as you want, islanders, as a group, have no differences from most of mainlanders, as a group again. the percentage of northeastern autosomal dna in both, is 5-10%

Then why do islanders not cluster autosomally with the mainland? People keep saying they are identical but providing no autosomal basis for that claim.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Then why do islanders not cluster autosomally with the mainland? People keep saying they are identical but providing no autosomal basis for that claim.
islanders cluster autosomally with most of the mainland

this has been proved as early as 2014, where no other islands than crete and some dodecanese were found to have differences from southern mainland, the way northern mainland has even more differences.

in Greece, more than 150 islands are populated, if you want to talk about a minority of islands you can't put the rest into the same basket, or even more to put mainland as a whole into the same basket the same time that it's even more diverse

Dude sorry but once again you make people laugh at you


Ancient Greeks were not 100% Mediterraneans as you falsely claim and Greeks have 100% racially continuity, in case you ignore it.

I wonder if there was any ancient population arround the mediterranean sea, which was racially 100% mediterranean.

even in catalonia, where med influence is the most frequent, it's not 100%

[Queen B]

Yes. I am not surprised because whether they look alike or not, mainland Greeks and Albanians are genetically similar. I am sick of us all having to pretend otherwise to make Greeks here feel good about being a pure Mediterranean population (they're not) with 100% continuity to ancient times. No. You plot north of Sicily, next to your Balkan kin and denying it does no one any favors and is academically dishonest.
Do you have DNA analysis from Ancient Greek population?

[brennus dux gallorum]

in Greece as a whole, med influence is 40-50%, northeastern influence on the other hand, from crete to thessaly and much of macedonia, it's 15-10%, and only in a small part of Macedonia and thrace it's 10-15%, now let the trolls trolling Greece about how much slavic influenced it is

[Tacitus]

Paschou et al. (2013). Sicilians plot south of Macedonians (proxy for mainlanders?) and alongside Peloponnesians. The difference isn't nearly as large as you make it seem:
http://s30.postimg.org/mm4vi0h6p/F2_large.jpg

[brennus dux gallorum]

Paschou et al. (2013). Sicilians plot south of Macedonians (proxy for mainlanders?) and alongside Peloponnesians. The difference isn't nearly as large as you make it seem:
http://s30.postimg.org/mm4vi0h6p/F2_large.jpg

this can't be true, Macedonians should plot near belarus :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

Still not enough to pull them towards Bulgarians/Serbs let alone Slavs. It's like saying the Germans breathen of S.Italians to the north because they score some central european.

If we suppose, for the sake of discussion, that the average Greek carries up to 20% Northeast European DNA, are you saying that the amount is still insufficient to pull them toward central Balkans and Slavic Europe? That's a fairly absurd assumption to make since that's akin to saying somebody carrying 20% African DNA is insignificant. The Greeks are not a unique race; they have the same common Balkan DNA plus Slavic; only that they have a little less of Slavic compared to us.

@Sikeliot, perhaps you should post some Greek samples from Puntdnal K15? They have Bulgarian, Romanian, and Macedonian samples. Offers more breadth, probably.

Here's an example, and a figure that actually corresponds with my 23andme results which are 69% Balkan (82% overall Southern European) and 5.5% Eastern European. The amount of Eastern European is probably underestimated/hidden, but it's probably up to 30-40%. If you look at the result number 4, you'll see that I'm similar to being 67% Tuscan and 32% Russian.

Puntdnal K15 Oracle mixed population:

<tbody>
1


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Nganassan
@
1.07


2


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Dolgan
@
1.1


3


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Selkup
@
1.11


4


67.7%
Tuscan
+
32.3%
Russian
@
1.11


5


99.7%
Macedonian
+
0.3%
AriBlackSmith
@
1.12


6


99%
Macedonian
+
1%
Chuvash
@
1.14


7


99.1%
Macedonian
+
0.9%
Mordovian
@
1.15


8


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Bashkir
@
1.15


9


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Finnish
@
1.16


10


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Russian
@
1.16

</tbody>

If Raine wants to dismiss 20% Slavic in Greeks, then she should do the same for her national archnemesis.

[Hellenas]

If we suppose, for the sake of discussion, that the average Greek carries up to 20% Northeast European DNA, are you saying that the amount is still insufficient to pull them toward central Balkans and Slavic Europe? That's a fairly absurd assumption to make since that's akin to saying somebody carrying 20% African DNA is insignificant. The Greeks are not a unique race; they have the same common Balkan DNA plus Slavic; only that they have a little less of Slavic compared to us.

@Sikeliot, perhaps you should post some Greek samples from Puntdnal K15? They have Bulgarian, Romanian, and Macedonian samples. Offers more breadth, probably.

Here's an example, and a figure that actually corresponds with my 23andme results which are 69% Balkan (82% overall Southern European) and 5.5% Eastern European. The amount of Eastern European is probably underestimated/hidden, but it's probably up to 30-40%. If you look at the result number 4, you'll see that I'm similar to being 67% Tuscan and 32% Russian.

Puntdnal K15 Oracle mixed population:

<tbody>
1


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Nganassan
@
1.07


2


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Dolgan
@
1.1


3


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Selkup
@
1.11


4


67.7%
Tuscan
+
32.3%
Russian
@
1.11


5


99.7%
Macedonian
+
0.3%
AriBlackSmith
@
1.12


6


99%
Macedonian
+
1%
Chuvash
@
1.14


7


99.1%
Macedonian
+
0.9%
Mordovian
@
1.15


8


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Bashkir
@
1.15


9


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Finnish
@
1.16


10


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Russian
@
1.16

</tbody>

If Raine wants to dismiss 20% Slavic in Greeks, then she should do the same for her national archnemesis.

You like to use a lot the word Slavic(usual for Panslavicists) when in fact genetics use East European, which was there before the formation of Slavs.

[brennus dux gallorum]

You like to use a lot the word Slavic(usual for Panslavicists) when in fact genetics use East European, which was there before the formation of Slavs.

he even uses a term that does not exist, "balkan dna"

[Sikeliot]

Paschou et al. (2013). Sicilians plot south of Macedonians (proxy for mainlanders?) and alongside Peloponnesians. The difference isn't nearly as large as you make it seem:
http://s30.postimg.org/mm4vi0h6p/F2_large.jpg

The study says Sicilians are between "SE Lakonia" and "Crete". Which makes sense since the sample is Syracusan, and Syracuse is the most Greek (RE: mainland) influenced part of Sicily.

Messina, Calabria, Syracuse, and some Palermitans would be right near Crete, and I even believe Calabria near Dodecanese.

[Wrong]

If we suppose, for the sake of discussion, that the average Greek carries up to 20% Northeast European DNA, are you saying that the amount is still insufficient to pull them toward central Balkans and Slavic Europe? That's a fairly absurd assumption to make since that's akin to saying somebody carrying 20% African DNA is insignificant. The Greeks are not a unique race; they have the same common Balkan DNA plus Slavic; only that they have a little less of Slavic compared to us.

@Sikeliot, perhaps you should post some Greek samples from Puntdnal K15? They have Bulgarian, Romanian, and Macedonian samples. Offers more breadth, probably.

Here's an example, and a figure that actually corresponds with my 23andme results which are 69% Balkan (82% overall Southern European) and 5.5% Eastern European. The amount of Eastern European is probably underestimated/hidden, but it's probably up to 30-40%. If you look at the result number 4, you'll see that I'm similar to being 67% Tuscan and 32% Russian.

Puntdnal K15 Oracle mixed population:

<tbody>
1


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Nganassan
@
1.07


2


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Dolgan
@
1.1


3


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Selkup
@
1.11


4


67.7%
Tuscan
+
32.3%
Russian
@
1.11


5


99.7%
Macedonian
+
0.3%
AriBlackSmith
@
1.12


6


99%
Macedonian
+
1%
Chuvash
@
1.14


7


99.1%
Macedonian
+
0.9%
Mordovian
@
1.15


8


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Bashkir
@
1.15


9


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Finnish
@
1.16


10


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Russian
@
1.16

</tbody>

If Raine wants to dismiss 20% Slavic in Greeks, then she should do the same for her national archnemesis.

Natufian BEASTS is what we all are.

[Alessio]

North-east European is not Russian. Even Northern Italians score it. Greeks may have more Northern European but not enough to pull them much more Northern than S.Italians.

Still significantly more northern I'd say..

[Sikeliot]

If Raine wants to dismiss 20% Slavic in Greeks, then she should do the same for her national archnemesis.

Exactly. I will post more results in another thread, but what it will show is that Syracuse/Ragusa area plots close to mainland Greeks but the rest of Sicily is much further away, and compared to them, Greeks are 20% shifted toward Northeast Europe.

[brennus dux gallorum]

The study says Sicilians are between "SE Lakonia" and "Crete". Which makes sense since the sample is Syracusan, and Syracuse is the most Greek (RE: mainland) influenced part of Sicily.

Messina, Calabria, Syracuse, and some Palermitans would be right near Crete, and I even believe Calabria near Dodecanese.

that's true, Syracuse is closer to Russia than any other part of Sicily

[Sikeliot]

that's true, Syracuse is closer to Russia than any other part of Sicily

Yes, it is true. I do not deny that Syracuse/Ragusa shift toward NE Europe on account of their higher Greek DNA.

See my plot here.. look where Ragusa plots.. near southern mainland Greece.

Obviously if the Sicilian sample in Paschou et al was Catanese, it'd be MUCH further south, near Dodecanese if not more.

https://s10.postimg.io/rqlm0y8jb/SIKpca2.png

[brennus dux gallorum]

Yes, it is true. I do not deny that Syracuse/Ragusa shift toward NE Europe on account of their higher Greek DNA.

See my plot here.. look where Ragusa plots.. near southern mainland Greece.

Obviously if the Sicilian sample in Paschou et al was Catanese, it'd be MUCH further south, near Dodecanese if not more.

https://s10.postimg.io/rqlm0y8jb/SIKpca2.png

Now i guess you have to hire Russian teachers in Syracuse, to teach how to say "da" in Russian:D

[Sikeliot]

Now i guess you have to hire Russian teachers in Syracuse, to teach how they say "da" in Russian:D

Do you at least see there how there is a gradient in Sicily -- people in Syracuse and Ragusa have more Greek ancestry and shift north compared to the others?

Also, islanders and mainlanders do differ, see above.

[Alessio]

The Sicilian example was not a reflection of the average, but on the low side .

[brennus dux gallorum]

Do you at least see there how there is a gradient in Sicily -- people in Syracuse and Ragusa have more Greek ancestry and shift north compared to the others?

Also, islanders and mainlanders do differ, see above.

i see, i mean, omg people in Syracuse look so slavic compare to the rest of Sicilians:eek:

I saw above, but didn't see this islanders/mainlanders difference;)

[Sikeliot]

The Sicilian example was not a reflection of the average, but on the low side .

Yes. The Sicilian samples on these studies almost always seem to be from the most northern shifted regions -- Trapani, Syracuse, and Ragusa.

Anyway SE Sicily do not look "Slavic" compared to other Sicilians, but they do look more Balkan.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Ok then i have to retype it:

"i see, i mean, omg people in Syracuse look so Balkanic compare to the rest of Sicilians"

[poiuytrewq0987]

You like to use a lot the word Slavic(usual for Panslavicists) when in fact genetics use East European, which was there before the formation of Slavs.

Umm, Slavic is a linguistic term but often used to refer to the original population from the Pripyat marshlands. Eastern Europe was then inhabited by Germanic tribes but left as a result of the Hunnic wars. The Slavs moved into Eastern Europe and today make up the bulk, if not all, of Eastern Europe. If we go further east, then we'll find Finno-Ugrics and Iranic tribes, non-European tribes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

If you can name me one Eastern European group that migrated into the Balkans that wasn't Slavic and Eastern European, then great, do it. Otherwise, quit being sore about my word of choice.

[Tacitus]

Recent studies find the East-West difference in Sicily to be non-existent (Sarno et al, 2015):

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

In contrast with previous investigations on the distribution pattern of genetic variation in Sicily [7]–[8], our results point to a substantially homogeneous composition of maternal and paternal genetic pools both within Sicily (East vs. West) as well as between Sicily and Southern Italy (Table S4). The absence of significant differences in the distribution of HG frequencies along the east-west axis of the island, as observed not only among our Sicilian populations, but also when including the samples from Di Gaetano et al. (2009) [8], provides further support to these conclusions.

Sicilian samples from the Sarno study came from all over Sicily FWIW:
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ppreviews-plos-725668748/1477905/preview.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

he even uses a term that does not exist, "balkan dna"

You must be part of the Greek Racial Purity Defense Squad. :laugh:

[Sikeliot]

Recent studies find the East-West difference in Sicily to be non-existent (Sarno et al, 2015):

Maybe so, but specific regions of Sicily (Syracuse, Ragusa, Trapani) have more influences that are northern-shifting, relative to people in Calabria and Messina who have much less.

From the 50+ results I have seen from Messina alone, on 23andme, Ancestry and GEDmatch, it is clear to me they'd plot near Dodecanese if not even more outlying.

But I get the point you are trying to prove is mainland Greeks, island Greeks, and Sicilians all plot close enough that differentiating them is not even fruitful, but I disagree.

On GEDmatch mainland Greeks are 10%+ more North European, this is not a meaningless number compared to Sicilians.

[brennus dux gallorum]

You must be part of the Greek Racial Purity Defense Squad. :laugh:

Nope, you are part of "Sikeliot's f*ck science" defense squad:cool:

claiming racial purity would be kinda "antiscientific", your fetish

[Sikeliot]

Nope, you are part of "Sikeliot's f*ck science" defense squad:cool:

On what do you base your claim that other Greek islanders plot near mainlanders? From all my results, Chios is the most different from mainland Greece, not Crete or Kalymnos.

[brennus dux gallorum]

On what do you base your claim that other Greek islanders plot near mainlanders? From all my results, Chios is the most different from mainland Greece, not Crete or Kalymnos.

the way other islands do not differ, such as cyclades etc., and the only way to have a "mainland" category differing from islands is to type mainland's average, otherwise Chios is not more distant from pelloponese than Macedonia from pelloponese etc, that's what you can not understand. And all this is getting even more rediculous if we consider that Greece as a whole is not less homogenous than other countries of its size.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Nope, you are part of "Sikeliot's f*ck science" defense squad:cool:

You're just a butthurt Greek who refuses to read the results from actual DNA testing. You even went as far as twisting my words to try and discredit me, pathetic. When I said Balkan DNA, it should have been obvious to anybody not harebrained, that it meant Southern European DNA common in the Balkan region. There is no Greek DNA, no Thracian DNA, etc, because humans are too mixed to neatly divide us on an ethnic level. However, what we can determine, is regional DNA, in which case, Greeks DO have plenty of Northeast DNA. Which I do use interchangeably with Slavic because there was no other Northeast group that migrated to Greece in great numbers than the Slavs.

[Sikeliot]

You're just a butthurt Greek who refuses to read the results from actual DNA testing. You even went as far as twisting my words to try and discredit me, pathetic. When I said Balkan DNA, it should have been obvious to anybody not harebrained, that it meant Southern European DNA common in the Balkan region. There is no Greek DNA, no Thracian DNA, etc, because humans are too mixed to neatly divide us on an ethnic level. However, what we can determine, is regional DNA, in which case, Greeks DO have plenty of Northeast DNA. Which I do use interchangeably with Slavic because there was no other Northeast group that migrated to Greece in great numbers than the Slavs.


And going along with this, there is high IBD sharing between Lucania in southern Italy ( a region which saw a lot of Byzantine Greek migration) with Northeast Europe. I wonder what this means? Indirect Slavic DNA.

[brennus dux gallorum]

You're just a butthurt Greek who refuses to read the results from actual DNA testing. You even went as far as twisting my words to try and discredit me, pathetic. When I said Balkan DNA, it should have been obvious to anybody not harebrained, that it meant Southern European DNA common in the Balkan region. There is no Greek DNA, no Thracian DNA, etc, because humans are too mixed to neatly divide us on an ethnic level. However, what we can determine, is regional DNA, in which case, Greeks DO have plenty of Northeast DNA. Which I do use interchangeably with Slavic because there was no other Northeast group that migrated to Greece in great numbers than the Slavs.

blablabla, still looking for balkan DNA in balkanic papers :D

as for "plenty of northeastern DNA, you are talking about 5-10%? :D and how did you conclude that ancient Greeks had no eastern european influence?

[Tacitus]

And going along with this, there is high IBD sharing between Lucania in southern Italy ( a region which saw a lot of Byzantine Greek migration) with Northeast Europe. I wonder what this means? Indirect Slavic DNA.

Source? Both for the study showing IBD sharing and historic evidence of Byzantine Greek migration to Basilicata.


Maybe so, but specific regions of Sicily (Syracuse, Ragusa, Trapani) have more influences that are northern-shifting, relative to people in Calabria and Messina who have much less.

From the 50+ results I have seen from Messina alone, on 23andme, Ancestry and GEDmatch, it is clear to me they'd plot near Dodecanese if not even more outlying.

But I get the point you are trying to prove is mainland Greeks, island Greeks, and Sicilians all plot close enough that differentiating them is not even fruitful, but I disagree.

On GEDmatch mainland Greeks are 10%+ more North European, this is not a meaningless number compared to Sicilians.

I felt the need to offer counterpoints citing genetic studies and since I'm inclined to side with rigorous academic research using heavily vetted samples, we'll have to agree to disagree on the distance.

Edit: On further reflection, you're not making any sense. You acknowledge the findings of the Sarno paper on one hand, but immediately reject it on other other. Since they didn't use samples from Messina in their study, we can use Calabria (which they used per the map in my previous post) as a proxy and their conclusion still holds water because they also state there isn't a significant difference genetically between Sicily and southern Italy.

[Hellenas]

Umm, Slavic is a linguistic term but often used to refer to the original population from the Pripyat marshlands. Eastern Europe was then inhabited by Germanic tribes but left as a result of the Hunnic wars. The Slavs moved into Eastern Europe and today make up the bulk, if not all, of Eastern Europe. If we go further east, then we'll find Finno-Ugrics and Iranic tribes, non-European tribes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

If you can name me one Eastern European group that migrated into the Balkans that wasn't Slavic and Eastern European, then great, do it. Otherwise, quit being sore about my word of choice.

It's called in Genetics as East European admixture not Slavic.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif


Which I do use interchangeably with Slavic because there was no other Northeast group that migrated to Greece in great numbers than the Slavs.

It's not from your medieval Slav invaders, it's ancient as well as to all non-Slavic speaking European populations. Go on and called it all medieval Slavic, it's your problem dear Panslavicist Fyromian.

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's called in Genetics as East European admixture not Slavic.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif



It's not from your medieval Slav invaders, it's ancient as well as to all non-Slavic speaking European populations. Go on and called it all medieval Slavic, it's your problem dear Panslavicist Fyromian.

they can not even understand what they read, that's sikeliot's and fyromian's real problem


lol eastern european influence is common even in iceland, but the ancient Greeks were PURE MEDITERRANEAN:D

[poiuytrewq0987]

And going along with this, there is high IBD sharing between Lucania in southern Italy ( a region which saw a lot of Byzantine Greek migration) with Northeast Europe. I wonder what this means? Indirect Slavic DNA.

It's simple denialism by Greeks who want to propagate the idea they are pure. Assimilating Slavs do not make them less Greek since the Greek culture has continued to this day.

https://s17.postimg.org/40f4xysj3/Screen_Shot_2016_09_05_at_2_25_41_PM.png

https://s17.postimg.org/pbcp28anj/Screen_Shot_2016_09_05_at_2_25_50_PM.png

https://s17.postimg.org/atfhu8jcf/Screen_Shot_2016_09_05_at_2_27_25_PM.png

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's simple denialism by Greeks who want to propagate the idea they are pure. Assimilating Slavs do not make them less Greek since the Greek culture has continued to this day.


that's exacly what i meant when i said that you can not understand what you read, in both TA posts and sources.

We never claimed that we have not assimilated slavs, or that we are pure. Slavs are not even the only people that have been assimilated here, we have assimilated insignificant frankish and north italian piopulations too, insignificant, like the number of slavs wer assimilated.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's called in Genetics as East European admixture not Slavic

Not in the context of Greece.


It's not from your medieval Slav invaders, it's ancient as well as to all non-Slavic speaking European populations. Go on and called it all medieval Slavic, it's your problem dear Panslavicist Fyromian.

I don't care if you want to call Slavic DNA Eastern European DNA, whatever makes you happy. It won't change how Eastern European DNA appeared in Greeks, the result of assimilating Slavs.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Not in the context of Greece.



I don't care if you want to call Slavic DNA Eastern European DNA, whatever makes you happy. It won't change how Eastern European DNA appeared in Greeks, the result of assimilating Slavs.

:picard1::picard2:

is eastern european dna in italy, spain and iceland also the result of assimilating slavs?

[Wrong]

they can not even understand what they read, that's sikeliot's and fyromian's real problem


lol eastern european influence is common even in iceland, but the ancient Greeks were PURE MEDITERRANEAN:D

Antic Greece had 0% Eastern European of this map. Just like Sardinia there, simply major Natufian.
Some regions got hit harder by the Slavic invasions/migrations, some didn't.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif

[Sikeliot]

:picard1::picard2:

is eastern european dna in italy, spain and iceland also the result of assimilating slavs?

There is almost no East Euro DNA in Italy, especially not Calabria/Sicily, that is why Greeks plot north of them.

[poiuytrewq0987]

they can not even understand what they read, that's sikeliot's and fyromian's real problem

lol eastern european influence is common even in iceland, but the ancient Greeks were PURE MEDITERRANEAN:D

The Europeans are similar to the degree that we all may have a little of something. Northeast DNA may very well have a similar terminal point as Northern DNA aka Scandinavian DNA. Otherwise, they would not be both light pigmented and tall. What's evident that is the Eastern European DNA in Greeks is the result of assimilating the Slavic migrants. It shows in the DNA results of Greeks who always show a pull toward Northeast Europe. No other great wave of Eastern Europeans arrived otherwise, nor is there a non-Slavic Eastern European people save for the Balts who are an offshoot of Slavs, anyhow.

[brennus dux gallorum]

There is almost no East Euro DNA in Italy, especially not Calabria/Sicily, that is why Greeks plot north of them.

as you can see, first of all it is not "almost no", secondly I am asking aemiliev who seems to consider eastern european dna in Greece slavic as a whole, which is just rediculous, like there was not eastern european influence in the ancient Greece, especially the same time that Scythian and other eastern european immigrations had started since 7th BC century

[Wrong]

Tosks, like the North Greeks have a much higher frequency of R1a and I2a1 compared to Ghegs and Greeks of other parts, which are the Slavic haplogroups that didn't exist back than in Antic times.

Ghegs northern component is mostly Northwestern. Is always how the shift goes.

[Danaan]

The Europeans are similar to the degree that we all may have a little of something. Northeast DNA may very well have a similar terminal point as Northern DNA aka Scandinavian DNA. Otherwise, they would not be both light pigmented and tall. What's evident that is the Eastern European DNA in Greeks is the result of assimilating the Slavic migrants. It shows in the DNA results of Greeks who always show a pull toward Northeast Europe. No other great wave of Eastern Europeans arrived otherwise, nor is there a non-Slavic Eastern European people save for the Balts who are an offshoot of Slavs, anyhow.

If Thracians were 'Slavic'-like genetically Greeks could have acquired Eastern European admixture from them (especially the northern Greeks) before the Slavic migrations. If Thracians were more or less Greek-like and ancient Greeks didn't have any Eastern European admixture at all, then yes, Eastern European admixture would have been mostly the result of Slavic migrations.

[catgeorge]

Tosks, like the North Greeks have a much higher frequency of R1a and I2a1 compared to Ghegs and Greeks of other parts, which are the Slavic haplogroups that didn't exist back than in Antic times.

Ghegs northern component is mostly Northwestern. Is always how the shift goes.

I2a1 is from the Dinaric Alps - Austria and some of Germany and West Anatolia has same frequency . I am unsure of the merits of 10% of I2a1 being phentoypical changing...and I am unsure how it got into Greece either. Could be the reverse migrations of Sarakatsani and Vlachs

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

[Wrong]

I2a1 is from the Dinaric Alps - Austria and some of Germany and West Anatolia has same frequency . I am unsure of the merits of 10% of I2a1 being phentoypical changing...and I am unsure how it got into Greece either. Could be the reverse migrations of Sarakatsani and Vlachs



Deeper clade, I2a1b

http://thegeneticatlas.com/I2a1b.png

[Wrong]

I2a1b1-M359.2/P41.2 (formerly I2a2a) is strongly correlated with the distribution of the Slavic languages (https://haplogroupi2b1ismine.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/the-story-of-i-httpwww-buildinghistory-orgdistantpasthaplogroupi-shtml-2/slavs.shtml), particularly Serbian (https://haplogroupi2b1ismine.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/the-story-of-i-httpwww-buildinghistory-orgdistantpasthaplogroupi-shtml-2/slavs.shtml#Slavicgenetic). Its TMRCA of 500 BC would give it time to burgeon among the Proto-Slavic farmers on the Dniester, before the spread of Slavic.

Basic tomatofarmer haplotype.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I2a1 is from the Dinaric Alps - Austria and some of Germany and West Anatolia has same frequency . I am unsure of the merits of 10% of I2a1 being phentoypical changing...and I am unsure how it got into Greece either. Could be the reverse migrations of Sarakatsani and Vlachs

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

don't waste your time with HPs, we have autosomal dna

[catgeorge]

Deeper clade, I2a1b

http://thegeneticatlas.com/I2a1b.png

I2a1b has many subclades I am not sure which one you are referring to as its mostly Germanic

[Wrong]

I2a1b has many subclades I am not sure which one you are referring to as its mostly Germanic

Ancient Greece was R1b-L23, EV13, J2 + some remnants of G2. Nothing else.

[catgeorge]

Ancient Greece was R1b-L23, EV13, J2 + some remnants of G2. Nothing else.

Don't know.

History tells us Minoans, Myceneans, Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians came from different parts so its not that simplistic.

[Hellenas]

It's simple denialism by Greeks who want to propagate the idea they are pure. Assimilating Slavs do not make them less Greek since the Greek culture has continued to this day.

https://s17.postimg.org/40f4xysj3/Screen_Shot_2016_09_05_at_2_25_41_PM.png

https://s17.postimg.org/pbcp28anj/Screen_Shot_2016_09_05_at_2_25_50_PM.png

https://s17.postimg.org/atfhu8jcf/Screen_Shot_2016_09_05_at_2_27_25_PM.png

Yeah, sure Panslavicist.


7th century

Slavic conquest of several parts of Greece, Greek migrations to Southern Italy, Roman emperors capture main Slavic bodies and transfer them to Cappadocia. The Bosphorus is re-populated by Macedonian and Cypriot Greeks.

8th century

Roman dissolution of surviving Slavic settlements in Greece and full recovery of the Greek peninsula.

9th century

Retro-migrations of Greeks from all parts of the Empire (mainly from Southern Italy and Sicily) into parts of Greece that were depopulated by the Slavic Invasions (mainly western Peloponnesus and Thessaly).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks#Timeline

Greeks are not widely mixed with Slavs & East Europeans.
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/178/greeks-widely-mixed-slavs-europeans

Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer

His Greek theory was already widely disputed in his lifetime, and is not accepted today. Early criticisms were published by the Slovene scholar Jernej Kopitar,[46] Friedrich Thiersch, Johann Wilhelm Zinkeisen,[47] and by George Finlay.[48]

Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer in Wikipedia
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/209/jakob-philipp-fallmerayer-wikipedia-atrocities

[Hellenas]

Not in the context of Greece.

It's called East European from what I have seen to all genetic maps and studies, not Slavic as you wish.

The main East European R1a haplogroup can be found in Balkans by 9,000 ybp.

Haplogroup R1a, Its Subclades and Branches in Europe during the Last 9000 Years

Igor L. Rozhanskii, Anatole A. Klyosov*
The Academy of DNA Genealogy, Newton, USA

"We found that the most ancient R1a sub- clades (R1a1-M198? and R1a1a-M198+/M417?) bearers of which currently live in Europe (the present day haplotypes are scattered between England and the Balkans) appeared in Europe at least 7300 ybp, and possibly 9000 ybp."

"By ~9000 ybp they arrived in the Balkans and spread westward over Europe and to the British Isles."

"Some known archaeological cultures in the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe, dated 8000 - 7000 ybp (Bug-Dniester, Vinca, Starcevo, LBK, etc.), can be attributed, as least in part, to bearers of R1a."

"We do not know exactly where their common ancestor lived, since members of this branch are scattered in Europe from the Balkans to the British isles(Map 1). It may be that they are descendants of those R1a bearers who came to the Balkans ~9000 ybp at the European end of their migration route from Central Asia (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012)."

www.researchgate.net/publication/235891857_Haplogroup_R1a_Its_Subclades_and_Branche s_in_Europe_During_the_Last_9000_Years


I don't care if you want to call Slavic DNA Eastern European DNA, whatever makes you happy. It won't change how Eastern European DNA appeared in Greeks, the result of assimilating Slavs.

We got what you band already.

[Petros Houhoulis]

If we suppose, for the sake of discussion, that the average Greek carries up to 20% Northeast European DNA, are you saying that the amount is still insufficient to pull them toward central Balkans and Slavic Europe? That's a fairly absurd assumption to make since that's akin to saying somebody carrying 20% African DNA is insignificant. The Greeks are not a unique race; they have the same common Balkan DNA plus Slavic; only that they have a little less of Slavic compared to us.

@Sikeliot, perhaps you should post some Greek samples from Puntdnal K15? They have Bulgarian, Romanian, and Macedonian samples. Offers more breadth, probably.

Here's an example, and a figure that actually corresponds with my 23andme results which are 69% Balkan (82% overall Southern European) and 5.5% Eastern European. The amount of Eastern European is probably underestimated/hidden, but it's probably up to 30-40%. If you look at the result number 4, you'll see that I'm similar to being 67% Tuscan and 32% Russian.

Puntdnal K15 Oracle mixed population:

<tbody>
1


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Nganassan
@
1.07


2


99.5%
Macedonian
+
0.5%
Dolgan
@
1.1


3


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Selkup
@
1.11


4


67.7%
Tuscan
+
32.3%
Russian
@
1.11


5


99.7%
Macedonian
+
0.3%
AriBlackSmith
@
1.12


6


99%
Macedonian
+
1%
Chuvash
@
1.14


7


99.1%
Macedonian
+
0.9%
Mordovian
@
1.15


8


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Bashkir
@
1.15


9


99.2%
Macedonian
+
0.8%
Finnish
@
1.16


10


99.3%
Macedonian
+
0.7%
Russian
@
1.16

</tbody>

If Raine wants to dismiss 20% Slavic in Greeks, then she should do the same for her national archnemesis.

Central Balkans is quite different from Slavic Europe Aemilius. The question is when did those genes arrive in Greece, because the Proto-Greeks were IndoEuropean invaders from Ukraine, probably the river Ingul, after all...

[Herr Abubu]

:thumb001:

i didnt understand the numbers before you started highlighting them in red

[Petros Houhoulis]

Umm, Slavic is a linguistic term but often used to refer to the original population from the Pripyat marshlands. Eastern Europe was then inhabited by Germanic tribes but left as a result of the Hunnic wars. The Slavs moved into Eastern Europe and today make up the bulk, if not all, of Eastern Europe. If we go further east, then we'll find Finno-Ugrics and Iranic tribes, non-European tribes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

If you can name me one Eastern European group that migrated into the Balkans that wasn't Slavic and Eastern European, then great, do it. Otherwise, quit being sore about my word of choice.

Proto-Greeks.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/02/mysterious-indo-european-homeland-may-have-been-steppes-ukraine-and-russia

[Petros Houhoulis]

You're just a butthurt Greek who refuses to read the results from actual DNA testing. You even went as far as twisting my words to try and discredit me, pathetic. When I said Balkan DNA, it should have been obvious to anybody not harebrained, that it meant Southern European DNA common in the Balkan region. There is no Greek DNA, no Thracian DNA, etc, because humans are too mixed to neatly divide us on an ethnic level. However, what we can determine, is regional DNA, in which case, Greeks DO have plenty of Northeast DNA. Which I do use interchangeably with Slavic because there was no other Northeast group that migrated to Greece in great numbers than the Slavs.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

[Petros Houhoulis]

Not in the context of Greece.



I don't care if you want to call Slavic DNA Eastern European DNA, whatever makes you happy. It won't change how Eastern European DNA appeared in Greeks, the result of assimilating Slavs.

You do realize that both Bulgarias have more "Mediterranean" than "East European" genes, don't you?

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Europeans are similar to the degree that we all may have a little of something. Northeast DNA may very well have a similar terminal point as Northern DNA aka Scandinavian DNA. Otherwise, they would not be both light pigmented and tall. What's evident that is the Eastern European DNA in Greeks is the result of assimilating the Slavic migrants. It shows in the DNA results of Greeks who always show a pull toward Northeast Europe. No other great wave of Eastern Europeans arrived otherwise, nor is there a non-Slavic Eastern European people save for the Balts who are an offshoot of Slavs, anyhow.

Proto-Greeks from Ukraine...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horse,_the_Wheel_and_Language

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwHEL2uwBL8X8IB3o7b9GNhJ05LSCsj G448Glz5KH0C1FUWQRQ

[Petros Houhoulis]

Tosks, like the North Greeks have a much higher frequency of R1a and I2a1 compared to Ghegs and Greeks of other parts, which are the Slavic haplogroups that didn't exist back than in Antic times.

Ghegs northern component is mostly Northwestern. Is always how the shift goes.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml


Haplogroup R* originated in North Asia just before the Last Glacial Maximum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum) (26,500-19,000 years before present). This haplogroup has been identified in the 24,000 year-old remains of the so-called "Mal'ta boy" from the Altai region, in south-central Siberia (Raghavan et al. 2013 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12736.html)).

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml


I2 (M438/P215/S31) is thought to have originated during the Late Paleolithic, around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, some 22,000 years ago. Its region of origin is undetermined at present. It could have been one of the Last Glacial Maximum refugia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum_refugia) or somewhere in Anatolia or around the Caucasus. Three hypotheses are consequently possible.

[*=left]The first scenario is that I2 originated in Europe. When the ice sheets started receding to the north from 20,000 to 12,000 years ago, the I2 hunter-gatherers re-expanded from their LGM refugium and colonised vast parts of western, central and Eastern Europe. In this hypothesis I2 would be associated with mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3, U5 and V, among others.
[*=left]In the second scenario I2 originated in West Asia, but also colonised Europe when the ice sheets receded. In this hypothesis I2 would be mostly associated with mtDNA haplogroups J and T.
[*=left]In the third and least likely scenario, I2 originated in West Asia but did not come to Europe until the Neolithic. There seems to have been several independent migrations of Neolithic farmers and herders from the Middle East to Europe, bringing lineages such as G2a, E1b1b, J and T. It is not yet clear at present whether each group brought only one or perhaps two haplogroups, or whether most migrations already comported blends of many haplogroups. In this hypothesis I2 could be associated with mtDNA haplogroups N1a, R, HV, H (various subclades), J, T, K and X. The recent identification (Lazaridis et al. 2013 (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552)) of Mesolithic Europeans from Sweden and Luxembourg to haplogroup I2a1b almost certainly disproves this third hypothesis.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I2a1b1-M359.2/P41.2 (formerly I2a2a) is strongly correlated with the distribution of the Slavic languages (https://haplogroupi2b1ismine.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/the-story-of-i-httpwww-buildinghistory-orgdistantpasthaplogroupi-shtml-2/slavs.shtml), particularly Serbian (https://haplogroupi2b1ismine.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/the-story-of-i-httpwww-buildinghistory-orgdistantpasthaplogroupi-shtml-2/slavs.shtml#Slavicgenetic). Its TMRCA of 500 BC would give it time to burgeon among the Proto-Slavic farmers on the Dniester, before the spread of Slavic.

Basic tomatofarmer haplotype.

500 B.C. is still antiquity and tomato back then existed only in the American continent.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Ancient Greece was R1b-L23, EV13, J2 + some remnants of G2. Nothing else.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml


Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

[Hellenas]

Lol, the Hellenes were some ballhead Baltic redass Bulgarians from Ukraine... :lol:

[Faklon]

Woah, a lot of folks eligible for the trash compactor.

[Faklon]

that's exacly what i meant when i said that you can not understand what you read, in both TA posts and sources.

We never claimed that we have not assimilated slavs, or that we are pure. Slavs are not even the only people that have been assimilated here, we have assimilated insignificant frankish and north italian piopulations too, insignificant, like the number of slavs wer assimilated.

LMAO

And why to mention it in a discussion concerning Slavs? Does being cucked by Venetians and Franks make you a more proud cuck?

In any case, this is another autistic thread by Inceliot responding to our National retard Raine (a specimen that was following Inceliot into Levadizing Greek islander in ages that OWD was higher in the forum).

To approximate admixture by a source, you got to take specifically dated IBD and specifically dated halpogroups, research that we don't quite posses right now. Seeing how Yamnaya and Greek neolithic farmers come up as the sources that will mostly define the classical Greek mix, I suppose that the Slavic admixture doesn't seem that significant. Plus, if you take modern South Slavs as the source for Slavs in Greece, it would be hard for them to make such a notable autosomal deviation anyway. Inceliot, taking Russians (themselves their own mix like much of Europe) as the source is comical.

If we take Yamnaya as proto-Greeks they appear half-EHG and carried a lot of what may appear Eastern-European admixture in the low-tier Eupedia map. Hellenass is a retard who repeats what his mother told him.

Anyway, this is a clownfest including the schizoid manlet going by the names Aemilius/Polk/Dusan.

To the metal foundry

[Petros Houhoulis]

Lol, the Hellenes were some ballhead Baltic redass Bulgarians from Ukraine... :lol:

Those were Proto-Greeks, the word "Hellenes" didn't exist at 3.000 B.C., and they weren't either Baltics or Bulgarians...

...You can't even read what I write...

[Queen B]

as for "plenty of northeastern DNΑ, you are talking about 5-10%? :D and how did you conclude that ancient Greeks had no eastern european influence?
In Apricity, they have ancient DNA samples that the scientific community isn't aware of .

[Faklon]

In Apricity, they have ancient DNA samples that the scientific community isn't aware of .

It would be cool to have them, personally I don't expect notable deviation.

Would be cool if they could test the Slavic cemeteries of Peloponnese too!

[Sikeliot]

Despite all of this I still do consider Greeks one of the closest populations to southern Italians within Europe if not the closest non-Italian one (Maltese are basically Italian). Even with the Slavic DNA, other Europeans are that much further away so it leaves Greeks as the closest.

[Hellenas]

Those were Proto-Greeks, the word "Hellenes" didn't exist at 3.000 B.C., and they weren't either Baltics or Bulgarians...

...You can't even read what I write...

They were proto-Greeks from Ukraine, not Hellenes, they were the Indo-Europeans who invaded Greeks like your Bulgarian ancestors, Greeks were not natives but Ukrainian invaders, like Slavs in the Balkans during the 6th century. I can undertstand very well the bullshit you write you slav-like ballhead.

[Faklon]

They were proto-Greeks from Ukraine, not Hellenes, they were the Indo-Europeans who invaded Greeks like your Bulgarian ancestors, Greeks were not natives but Ukrainian invaders, like Slavs in the Balkans during the 6th century. I can undertstand very well the bullshit you write you ballhead semi-slav.

You are not Grecopithicus Hellenass, you are modernity's idolization mixed up with rayah oriental passion all packed together into the body of some middle-age weirdo that lives with his mother. Internet just gave you the chance to play prophet in a bigger audience than the kafeneio therefore also the chance to find the occasional weirdo that will follow you.

[Wrong]

You didn't answer in the other thread hellenass. Is this hyperbrachycephalicus type to the left antic Greek?
Doubt it existed below the Jirecek line back than. Same for Petros Houhoulis head.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-szPelOYONzU/UF9WG0S_c-I/AAAAAAAAPSU/VcHOGW_mn38/s1600/assets_LARGE_t_420_54112490.JPG

[Hellenas]

You are not Grecopithicus Hellenass, you are modernity's idolization mixed up with rayah oriental passion all packed together into the body of some middle-age weirdo that lives with his mother. Internet just gave you the chance to play prophet in a bigger audience than the kafeneio therefore also the chance to find the occasional weirdo that will follow you.

Sorry I don't trade words with jew-commie-marxist anti-national shit like you, all communists must be deported and the unrepentant ones like you to executed without mercy.

[Hellenas]

You didn't answer in the other thread hellenass. Is this hyperbrachycephalicus type to the left antic Greek?
Doubt it existed below the Jirecek line back than. Same for Petros Houhoulis head.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-szPelOYONzU/UF9WG0S_c-I/AAAAAAAAPSU/VcHOGW_mn38/s1600/assets_LARGE_t_420_54112490.JPG

Hey fat gypsy whore, this is an Albanian not a Greek.

[Wrong]

this is an Albanian not a Greek.
Puro Epirote he is

http://tsoutsouneros.arvanitis.eu/wp-content/uploads/%CE%A7%CE%A1%CE%A5%CE%A3%CE%97-%CE%91%CE%A5%CE%93%CE%97-%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%91-%CE%95%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%97%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%91%CE%9B%C E%92%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%99%CE%9A%CE%91-%CE%A3%CE%A5%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%A1%CE%91-%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%92%CE%99%CE%91-2-%CE%9C%CE%A0%CE%91%CE%A1%CE%9C%CE%A0%CE%91%CE%A1%C E%9F%CE%A5%CE%A3%CE%97%CE%A3-%CE%9C%CE%95-Roberto-Chaidi.jpg

[Faklon]

Sorry I don't trade words with jew-commie-marxist anti-national shit like you, all communists must be deported and the unrepentant ones like you to executed without mercy.

Subhuman listen to me

Listen to me subhuman

Listen subhuman, to me

Subhuman


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCwrOpnyXeo

[Hellenas]

Puro Epirote he is

http://tsoutsouneros.arvanitis.eu/wp-content/uploads/%CE%A7%CE%A1%CE%A5%CE%A3%CE%97-%CE%91%CE%A5%CE%93%CE%97-%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%91-%CE%95%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%97%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%91%CE%9B%C E%92%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%99%CE%9A%CE%91-%CE%A3%CE%A5%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%A1%CE%91-%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%92%CE%99%CE%91-2-%CE%9C%CE%A0%CE%91%CE%A1%CE%9C%CE%A0%CE%91%CE%A1%C E%9F%CE%A5%CE%A3%CE%97%CE%A3-%CE%9C%CE%95-Roberto-Chaidi.jpg

Roberto Chaidi, Albanian.

[Romany Today]

You didn't answer in the other thread hellenass. Is this hyperbrachycephalicus type to the left antic Greek?
Doubt it existed below the Jirecek line back than. Same for Petros Houhoulis head.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-szPelOYONzU/UF9WG0S_c-I/AAAAAAAAPSU/VcHOGW_mn38/s1600/assets_LARGE_t_420_54112490.JPG

True

[Hellenas]

Is this hyperbrachycephalicus type to the left antic Greek?
Doubt it existed below the Jirecek line back than. Same for Petros Houhoulis head.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-szPelOYONzU/UF9WG0S_c-I/AAAAAAAAPSU/VcHOGW_mn38/s1600/assets_LARGE_t_420_54112490.JPG

http://cms.kienthuc.net.vn/zoom/1000/uploaded/hongnhat/2014_01_03/chien%20binh%204_kienthuc.net.vn%203.1_kienthuc_ay pe.jpg

Pyrrhus of Epirus

The Epirotes, like their neighbors the Toscs, have an extremely high cephalic index mean, 88, and there seems to be a strongly brachycephalic zone running down the western slopes of the mountain core from Albania to the Gulf of Corinth, and perhaps beyond. [130] It is an extension of the same zone which extends all the way from the Alpine racial center in France, and more specifically, of the population studied in the region of Gjinokaster in southernmost Albania

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII14.htm

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think that this thread ends up like all threads opened by Sikeliot: proved that he is wrong, and making him officially the most hated man in the Greek islands :D

[Sikeliot]

I think that this thread ends up like all threads opened by Sikeliot: proved that he is wrong, and making him officially the most hated man in the Greek islands :D

Why would I be hated -- for saying islanders look more Levantine than mainlanders do?

[Petros Houhoulis]

They were proto-Greeks from Ukraine, not Hellenes, they were the Indo-Europeans who invaded Greeks like your Bulgarian ancestors, Greeks were not natives but Ukrainian invaders, like Slavs in the Balkans during the 6th century. I can undertstand very well the bullshit you write you slav-like ballhead.

Those Proto-Greeks were a minority of 10%~20% who brought their language and organizational skills to Greece. The Greek civilization flourished a few thousand years after their arrival by a mixed population of invaders and local people.

The Bulgarians tried hard to establish a Bulgarian civilization in Greece, but failed. There was an advanced civilization before them in the region...

[Petros Houhoulis]

You didn't answer in the other thread hellenass. Is this hyperbrachycephalicus type to the left antic Greek?
Doubt it existed below the Jirecek line back than. Same for Petros Houhoulis head.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-szPelOYONzU/UF9WG0S_c-I/AAAAAAAAPSU/VcHOGW_mn38/s1600/assets_LARGE_t_420_54112490.JPG

My skull is not so much Europid, (χοντροκέφαλος) but whether you like it or not, the Proto-Greeks definitely included such folks since the original Indo-Europeans were majority Europids, and that was many thousand years before the Jirecek line...

[Hellenas]

Those Proto-Greeks were a minority of 10%~20% who brought their language and organizational skills to Greece. The Greek civilization flourished a few thousand years after their arrival by a mixed population of invaders and local people.

The Bulgarians tried hard to establish a Bulgarian civilization in Greece, but failed. There was an advanced civilization before them in the region...

Yes the proto-Greeks were some Baltic people from the Russian-Ukrainian steppes, they brought indo-Germanic, sorry Indo-Slavic Hellenic language in Greece as well as balalaica and the matryoshka doll, then they mixed with the non-Greek Pelasgian native Meditteranean population and made the Hellenic civilization, ancient Greeks were only 10~20% Russian, sorry I meant Hellenic. Today Russians and other Slavs are more Proto-Greeks than Greeks who were never more than 10-20% Hellenic. This of course turns ancient Greek civilization automatically to Pelasgian than Ukrainian-Hellenic.

Nice fairy tale and theory, let's call it the Slavo-Bulgar or Russo-Ukrainian theory.

Proto-Greeks dancing and singing...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-jsXGLysCU

[Myanthropologies]

Yes. I am not surprised because whether they look alike or not, mainland Greeks and Albanians are genetically similar. I am sick of us all having to pretend otherwise to make Greeks here feel good about being a pure Mediterranean population (they're not) with 100% continuity to ancient times. No. You plot north of Sicily, next to your Balkan kin and denying it does no one any favors and is academically dishonest.

When you weigh in culture, genetics, and history together, all Greeks are closest to each other. You place too much importance in genetics. Do you place value in your friendships in real life based on who you cluster near genetically? Because it sounds like it. You are an American. You are not Sicilian, you are not Polish, you are not Portuguese. You are more similar to me as an American than you are to those three places, just as I am more similar to you as an American than to Afghans. If you feel closer to your ethnicity and are an ethnic nationalist, I respect that and that is okay. But all Greeks, whether they are mainlanders, islanders, pontics, hell, even if they're Cypriots, are close to each other. Stop emphasizing their racial differences.

In plus they are all still genetically relatively close to each other. Even sicilians have some balkan population in their oracle come up before any Levantine usually does.

[Myanthropologies]

Correct.
But islanders do not.

I am also sick of them claiming mainlanders and islanders have no differences... it is not true.

You should really stay out of their business. If they want to feel close to each other, let them. And don't you think Levantines on here feel the same way when you try to relate Sicilians to Levantines? Sicilians are usually genetically closer to some population in the balkans, at least one of them, before Levantines, and are certainaly closer to Greeks than to Levantines genetically. Even about half of Sicilians look way more like Greeks than they look like Levantines.

You really place in unhealthy importance in genetics in terms of kinship/relationship. Not that it doesn't matter sometimes, but you overdo it and I sincerely think you need to see a counselor.

[Coolguy1]

Even when Slavic speakers reached Greece, they had already soaked up the native Balkan DNA from their time traveling south. So genetically, these Slavs living in Greece were no different from their Greek speaking neighbors living in the same area.

[Sikeliot]

You should really stay out of their business. If they want to feel close to each other, let them. And don't you think Levantines on here feel the same way when you try to relate Sicilians to Levantines? Sicilians are usually genetically closer to some population in the balkans, at least one of them, before Levantines, and are certainaly closer to Greeks than to Levantines genetically. Even about half of Sicilians look way more like Greeks than they look like Levantines.

You really place in unhealthy importance in genetics in terms of kinship/relationship. Not that it doesn't matter sometimes, but you overdo it and I sincerely think you need to see a counselor.

Sicilians are closest to:

Other southern Italians (Calabria, Campania etc)
Ashkenazi Jews
Greek islanders
Sephardim and Moroccan Jews
Greek mainlanders
Central Italians
Albanians
Turks

AND THEN Levantines (and northern Italians too, at roughly equal distance). Balkan Slavs are further down the list than Levantines.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yes the proto-Greeks were some Baltic people from the Russian-Ukrainian steppes, they brought indo-Germanic, sorry Indo-Slavic Hellenic language in Greece

The proto-Greeks were not Baltic people, Baltic people don't live in Ukraine and south Russia mr. mental midget, and there is no such thing as Indo-Germanic or Indo-Slavic to begin with. Grow a fucking brain!


as well as balalaica and the matryoshka doll, then they mixed with the non-Greek Pelasgian native Meditteranean population and made the Hellenic civilization, ancient Greeks were only 10~20% Russian, sorry I meant Hellenic.

There were no Russians at 3.000 B.C. and the whitewashing of all the pre-Greek population as "Pelasgian" is the way of thinking of Laberia. We don't even know the names of the people living there, even the name "Minoan" is an exonym, not a real name.


Today Russians and other Slavs are more Proto-Greeks than Greeks who were never more than 10-20% Hellenic.

Today Russians and Slavs cannot be proto-Greek, the proto-Greeks have ceased to exist some thousand years ago, when there were no Russians or Slavs...


This of course turns ancient Greek civilization automatically to Pelasgian than Ukrainian-Hellenic.

That actually turns you into an incoherent mumbling idiot.


Nice fairy tale and theory, let's call it the Slavo-Bulgar or Russo-Ukrainian theory.

I'll call it Hellenarses' hallucinations about prehistory, an unknown subject for him.


Proto-Greeks dancing and singing...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-jsXGLysCU

These ain't proto-Greeks you moron! Stop that Laberia style thinking like the idiot who is trying to prove that the Albanians were a nation at a time when they wouldn't make a difference between themselves and their sheep...

[Danaan]

Αυτή τη στεππική θεωρία την αποδέχονται πολλοί στο χώρο του ανθροταρντισμού. Είναι και.. μέηνστρημ στους επιστημονικούς κύκλους της Δύσης. Αλλά δεν είναι γεγονός.

[Faklon]

Αυτή τη στεππική θεωρία την αποδέχονται πολλοί στο χώρο του ανθροταρντισμού. Είναι και.. μέηνστρημ στους επιστημονικούς κύκλους της Δύσης. Αλλά δεν είναι γεγονός.

Αν έχουμε να συμφωνεί γλώσσα και αρχαιολογία με συμβατή ανθρωπολογία και γενετική, λογικό δεν είναι να θεωρείται αποδεκτή;

[Bell Beaker]

Hellenas reminds me of Anthropologique fap with the Atlantic fuckade....

[Myanthropologies]

Sicilians are closest to:

Other southern Italians (Calabria, Campania etc)
Ashkenazi Jews
Greek islanders
Sephardim and Moroccan Jews
Greek mainlanders
Central Italians
Albanians
Turks

AND THEN Levantines (and northern Italians too, at roughly equal distance). Balkan Slavs are further down the list than Levantines.

Still the genetic distances between them and Greeks is only at a 6, that's really really close. To put that into perspective, the genetically closest population to me, Pamiri Tajiks, who are also themselves genetically closest to pashtuns, are at about a 5-6 distance from Pashtuns. Even pashtuns are about that far from each other genetically.

[Danaan]

Αν έχουμε να συμφωνεί γλώσσα και αρχαιολογία με συμβατή ανθρωπολογία και γενετική, λογικό δεν είναι να θεωρείται αποδεκτή;

Δεν το έχουμε αυτό. Αν θέλεις να το δεις βέβαια, είναι πολύ εύκολο.

Κάτι που είναι γενικά αποδεκτό δεν είναι απαραίτητα σωστό. Ένα χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα είναι η 'σκυθική γλώσσα' που θεωρείται 'ανατολική ιρανική'. Δεν υπάρχει γραπτή μαρτυρία της γλώσσας, επομένως οι γλωσσολόγοι μπορούν να γίνουν ιδιαίτερα δημιουργικοί. Ένας Οσσέτης εθνικιστής γλωσσολόγος το έπραξε. Κάνεις δεν έχει ασχοληθεί σοβαρά.

Τα βασικά επιχειρήματα εναντίον του υπάρχουν εδώ: https://borissoff.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/was-scythian-an-iranian-language/

Άλλο παράδειγμα είναι η 'Μεγάλη Μοραβία'. Την τοποθετούσαν στην Τσεχία οι περισσότεροι 'επιστήμονες' χρησιμοποιώντας ως πηγή Βυζαντινό κείμενο που την τοποθετούσε στη σημερινή Σερβία.
Σίγουρα στην Τσεχία διδάσκονται την 'παραδοσιακή' άποψη στα σχολεία ακόμα.

Άλλο παράδειγμα θα μπορούσε να είναι η Λευκή Κροατία, που την τοποθετούν βορειότερα και ανατολικότερα από όπου πραγματικά ήταν σύμφωνα με την πηγή που επικαλούνται για την ύπαρξή της.

[Hellenas]

The proto-Greeks were not Baltic people, Baltic people don't live in Ukraine and south Russia

Absolute ignorance. Both south Russians and Ukranians are heavily Baltids.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Rassenkarte_von_Europa.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cZf5bV8e4FI/UNXfRC3fYcI/AAAAAAAAAYc/LBnAQ5AbUv4/s1600/Race-Map-of-Europe-2000.png

http://i.imgur.com/VNpm0ph.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X5Hlu0HtAak/VfxrXVs1rQI/AAAAAAAAD-w/manig7j5Fiw/s1600/sonia%2Bcole%2Beurope%2Braces.JPG


And heavily brachycephalics, like your stupid head is.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XHOj5oTNQmw/VuQiOH8893I/AAAAAAAAFD8/Z-c7LZHSsqQNjSBp_YVWJu95VIvRoIEJQ/s1600/Schwidetzky-ci.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wu0XdWC1ON8/Vkc5yB9cv5I/AAAAAAAAERE/fFG5EImSMss/s1600/biasutti%2Bcephalic%2Bindex.jpg


mr. mental midget, and there is no such thing as Indo-Germanic or Indo-Slavic to begin with. Grow a fucking brain!There were no Russians at 3.000 B.C. and the whitewashing of all the pre-Greek population as "Pelasgian" is the way of thinking of Laberia. We don't even know the names of the people living there, even the name "Minoan" is an exonym, not a real name.Today Russians and Slavs cannot be proto-Greek, the proto-Greeks have ceased to exist some thousand years ago, when there were no Russians or Slavs...That actually turns you into an incoherent mumbling idiot.I'll call it Hellenarses' hallucinations about prehistory, an unknown subject for him.

These ain't proto-Greeks you moron! Stop that Laberia style thinking like the idiot who is trying to prove that the Albanians were a nation at a time when they wouldn't make a difference between themselves and their sheep...

Lol, I was mocking your "Aryan" Ukrainian steppe bullshit theory but your big piggish Slavo-Bulgar head is to dumb to get it.


mr. mental midget


incoherent mumbling idiot


I'll call it Hellenarses'

Oh, the anomalous sexomaniac opened again his big mouth!

[Faklon]

Δεν το έχουμε αυτό. Αν θέλεις να το δεις βέβαια, είναι πολύ εύκολο.

Κάτι που είναι γενικά αποδεκτό δεν είναι απαραίτητα σωστό. Ένα χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα είναι η 'σκυθική γλώσσα' που θεωρείται 'ανατολική ιρανική'. Δεν υπάρχει γραπτή μαρτυρία της γλώσσας, επομένως οι γλωσσολόγοι μπορούν να γίνουν ιδιαίτερα δημιουργικοί. Ένας Οσσέτης εθνικιστής γλωσσολόγος το έπραξε. Κάνεις δεν έχει ασχοληθεί σοβαρά.

Τα βασικά επιχειρήματα εναντίον του υπάρχουν εδώ: https://borissoff.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/was-scythian-an-iranian-language/

Άλλο παράδειγμα είναι η 'Μεγάλη Μοραβία'. Την τοποθετούσαν στην Τσεχία οι περισσότεροι 'επιστήμονες' χρησιμοποιώντας ως πηγή Βυζαντινό κείμενο που την τοποθετούσε στη σημερινή Σερβία.
Σίγουρα στην Τσεχία διδάσκονται την 'παραδοσιακή' άποψη στα σχολεία ακόμα.

Άλλο παράδειγμα θα μπορούσε να είναι η Λευκή Κροατία, που την τοποθετούν βορειότερα και ανατολικότερα από όπου πραγματικά ήταν σύμφωνα με την πηγή που επικαλούνται για την ύπαρξή της.

Πολλά γλωσσικά στοιχεία(παρά το κάποιο υφάκι του blogger) μπορούν να βρεθούν εδώ (https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/tag/%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%B5%CF%85%CF%81%CF%89%C F%80%CE%B1%CF%8A%CE%BA%CE%AE/).

Έχουμε αρκετά αρχαιολογικά στοιχεία όπως την διάδωση του άρματος, του τύμβου, της εξέλιξης των αγγείων, προσωπικών κοσμημάτων με κοινά σύμβολα όπως ο αετός κτλπ

Φαίνεται να έχουμε την διάδωση κοινών κοινωνικών δόμων, εδώ οι Μυκηναίοι φαίνεται να επηρεάστηκαν σε κάποιο βαθμό απο τους Μινωίτες.

Προσωπικά, έχοντας διαβάσει για την ανθρωπολογία των Μυκηναίων αλλά και της Στέππας φαίνεται να υπάρχει ισχυρή κλίση των πρώτων ως προς τους δεύτερους. Αυτό σε ένα βαθμό αποδεικνύει και η γενετική, το μόνο mtdna που έχουμε από τους Μυκηναίους είναι παρόμοιο με αυτά των Γιαμναγια(link (http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/05/mtdna-from-grave-circle-b-in-mycenae_07.html)), oι Μυκηναίοι φαίνεται να ξεχώριζαν για το ύψος τους, κάτι που φαίνεται και για τους Γιαμνάγια τόσο ανθωπολογικά όσο και γενετικά (http://i59.tinypic.com/qy8eas.png).

100% Σίγουρος δεν μπορείς να είσαι πότε αλλά πρέπει να είναι μεγαλη συνωμοσία χωρίς κάποιο ιδιαίτερο σκοπό να διαφαίνεται.

[Danaan]

Δεν συμφωνώ. Η κλασσική Ελλάδα δεν έχει σχεδόν τίποτα κοινό με τους στεππικούς πληθυσμούς.

Οι θόλοι δεν είναι kurgan. Η ομοιότητα είναι επιφανειακή.

Αυτό το νεολιθικό κατασκεύασμα στη Σκωτία μοιάζει περισσότερο με τον τάφο του Αγαμέμνονα απ' ότι οποιοδήποτε kurgan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstan_Chambered_Cairn

Αλλά κανείς δεν λέει ότι οι Μυκηναίοι ήρθαν από τη Σκωτία.

[Faklon]

Δεν συμφωνώ. Η κλασσική Ελλάδα δεν έχει σχεδόν τίποτα κοινό με τους στεππικούς πληθυσμούς.

Οι θόλοι δεν είναι kurgan. Η ομοιότητα είναι επιφανειακή.

Αυτό το νεολιθικό κατασκεύασμα στη Σκωτία μοιάζει περισσότερο με τον τάφο του Αγαμέμνονα απ' ότι οποιοδήποτε kurgan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstan_Chambered_Cairn

Αλλά κανείς δεν λέει ότι οι Μυκηναίοι ήρθαν από τη Σκωτία.

Διάβασε παρακάτω.


It is possible that Unstan was in use well into the second millennium BC; an arrowhead was discovered in the tomb that is characteristic of the Beaker People who lived from the Late Neolithic into the Bronze Age.[20][21] Moreover, burials in the crouched position were not practiced in the Neolithic.[22]

Βell Beaker είναι θεωρητικά οι πρωτο-Κέλτες.

Πριν την άνθηση του Μυκηναϊκού πολιτισμού έχουμε ήδη τύμβους στην Ηπειρωτική Ελλάδα, πάνω κάτω στις ίδιες περιοχές αλληλεπίδρασης.

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/02/mainland/gr/mh/society/tafoi/index3.html

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/02/mainland/gr/mh/images/maps/xart_timv2.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Path3959-83.png/667px-Path3959-83.png

http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=11

http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/openimg.php?id_img=125

[Danaan]

Αν αυτές οι κατασκευές έγιναν μεταξύ 3400 π.Χ και 2800 π.Χ δεν είναι δυνατό να τις έχτισαν 'πρωτο-Κελτες', αν ακολουθήσουμε τη mainstream θεωρία. Η μετανάστευση αρχίζει μετά το 3000 π.Χ και η πρωτο-κελτική 'πατρίδα΄είναι στην Κεντρική Ευρώπη.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Δεν το έχουμε αυτό. Αν θέλεις να το δεις βέβαια, είναι πολύ εύκολο.

Κάτι που είναι γενικά αποδεκτό δεν είναι απαραίτητα σωστό. Ένα χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα είναι η 'σκυθική γλώσσα' που θεωρείται 'ανατολική ιρανική'. Δεν υπάρχει γραπτή μαρτυρία της γλώσσας, επομένως οι γλωσσολόγοι μπορούν να γίνουν ιδιαίτερα δημιουργικοί. Ένας Οσσέτης εθνικιστής γλωσσολόγος το έπραξε. Κάνεις δεν έχει ασχοληθεί σοβαρά.

Έχουμε όμως αρχαία Ελληνικά αγγεία με Σκυθικά ονόματα:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/09/140923-amazon-greek-vase-translations-science/




Τα βασικά επιχειρήματα εναντίον του υπάρχουν εδώ: https://borissoff.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/was-scythian-an-iranian-language/

Άλλο παράδειγμα είναι η 'Μεγάλη Μοραβία'. Την τοποθετούσαν στην Τσεχία οι περισσότεροι 'επιστήμονες' χρησιμοποιώντας ως πηγή Βυζαντινό κείμενο που την τοποθετούσε στη σημερινή Σερβία.
Σίγουρα στην Τσεχία διδάσκονται την 'παραδοσιακή' άποψη στα σχολεία ακόμα.

Άλλο παράδειγμα θα μπορούσε να είναι η Λευκή Κροατία, που την τοποθετούν βορειότερα και ανατολικότερα από όπου πραγματικά ήταν σύμφωνα με την πηγή που επικαλούνται για την ύπαρξή της.

Η "Μεγάλη Μοραβία" και η "Λευκή Κροατία" δεν απασχολούν πολύ κόσμο. Η καταγωγή των Ινδο-Ευρωπαίων όμως έχει γίνει κόσκινο από εκατοντάδες, ίσως και χιλιάδες μελετητές...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Δεν συμφωνώ. Η κλασσική Ελλάδα δεν έχει σχεδόν τίποτα κοινό με τους στεππικούς πληθυσμούς.

Οι θόλοι δεν είναι kurgan. Η ομοιότητα είναι επιφανειακή.

Αυτό το νεολιθικό κατασκεύασμα στη Σκωτία μοιάζει περισσότερο με τον τάφο του Αγαμέμνονα απ' ότι οποιοδήποτε kurgan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstan_Chambered_Cairn

Αλλά κανείς δεν λέει ότι οι Μυκηναίοι ήρθαν από τη Σκωτία.

Και ποιός σου είπε ότι οι ΙνδοΕυρωπαίοι δεν έφτασαν στην Σκωτία; Όταν οι Ρωμαίοι εισέβαλλαν στην Βρετανία ανακάλυψαν ότι οι τοπικοί πληθυσμοί πολεμούσαν ακόμα με άρματα όπως στην Ιλιάδα!!!

[Petros Houhoulis]

Αν αυτές οι κατασκευές έγιναν μεταξύ 3400 π.Χ και 2800 π.Χ δεν είναι δυνατό να τις έχτισαν 'πρωτο-Κελτες', αν ακολουθήσουμε τη mainstream θεωρία. Η μετανάστευση αρχίζει μετά το 3000 π.Χ και η πρωτο-κελτική 'πατρίδα΄είναι στην Κεντρική Ευρώπη.

Η θεωρία λέει ότι η Ινδο-Ευρωπαϊκή γλώσσα υπάρχει μεταξύ 4.000 π.Χ. και 3.000 π.Χ. και ότι οι εισβολές των Ινδο-Ευρωπαίων ξεκίνησαν πρίν το 3.500 π.Χ., πρώτα πιθανόν προς Μικρά Ασία, μετά πρός κεντρική Ασία, μετά πρός Κεντρική Ευρώπη και τελικά πρός Ελλάδα, Ιράν και Ινδία. Οι πρωτό-Κέλτες είχαν φτάσει στην Κεντρική Ευρώπη πολύ πρίν οι πρωτό-Έλληνες φτάσουν στην Ελλάδα.

[Danaan]

Έχουμε αγγεία με σκυθικά ονόματα γιατί είχαμε Σκύθες δούλους που έφτιαχναν (πολλά από) τα αγγεία.

Δεν υπήρχαν Ινδοευρωπαίοι στη Σκωτία το 3400-2800 π.Χ σύμφωνα με την υπόθεση kurgan. Το άρμα φτάνει στη Μ. Βρετανία το 500 π.Χ. Η 'πρωτο-κελτική' μιλιόταν στον πολιτισμό Urnfield (c. 1300 — c. 750 BCE) υποτίθεται.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Έχουμε αγγεία με σκυθικά ονόματα γιατί είχαμε Σκύθες δούλους που έφτιαχναν (πολλά από) τα αγγεία.

Ποιός είπε ότι δεν ήταν δούλοι; Ωστόσο με αυτόν τον τρόπο διαιώνισαν την γλώσσα τους και σήμερα μπορούν κάποιοι να την συσχετίσουν με σύγχρονες γλώσσες, οπότε ο ισχυρισμός σου ότι "δεν υπάρχει γραπτή μαρτυρία της γλώσσας των Σκυθών" πάει περίπατο.


Δεν υπήρχαν Ινδοευρωπαίοι στη Σκωτία το 3400-2800 π.Χ σύμφωνα με την υπόθεση kurgan. Το άρμα φτάνει στη Μ. Βρετανία το 500 π.Χ. Η 'πρωτο-κελτική' μιλιόταν στον πολιτισμό Urnfield (c. 1300 — c. 750 BCE) υποτίθεται.

Εγώ δεν είπα ότι υπάρχουν Ινδο-Ευρωπαίοι στη Σκωτία το 2.800 π.Χ. Ούτε είπα ότι η σχέση μεταξύ Μυκηναίων και πρώτο-Ελλήνων βασίζεται σε ταφικό τύπο.

Η αλήθεια είναι ότι έχω μπλέξει με πολλούς τενεκέδες σε πολλά μέτωπα και δεν διάβασα γιά τον τάφο στην Σκωτία, αλλά και πάλι η θεωρία της μετανάστευσης των Πρωτό-Ελληνων στην Ελλάδα βασίζεται περισσότερο σε γλωσσικά τεκμήρια και την χρήση του άρματος στην Αρχαϊκή εποχή παρά στους τάφους. Ωστόσο χρυσά προσωπεία όπως του Αγαμένμονα έχουν βρεθεί σε τάφους στην Ουκρανία κοντά στον ποταμό Ινγκούλ, και χρονολογούνται πρίν τον τάφο του Αγαμέμνονα.

Σε κάθε περίπτωση όμως δεν υπάρχει θεωρία και αδειάσειστες αρχαιολογικές αποδείξεις που να δείχνουν πώς ακριβώς έφτασαν οι Πρωτο-Έλληνες στην Ελλάδα - Και αυτό ισχύει μόνο γιά τους πρώτο-Ελληνες, όλες οι άλλες εισβολές των Ινδο-Ευρωπαίων έχουν αφήσει αρχαιολογικά στοιχεία. Μπορεί να έφτασαν ακόμα και από την θάλασσα!

[DarknessWin]

Ancient Greeks wasnt pure Meditteraneans , actually the sea people,aegeans and minoans were meditteraneans from J2 but ancient greeks had
north european dna from the tribe of Dorians. And of course another hapl from the native Pelasgians who mixed with other tribes.

This thread prove nothing

[Kouros]

Natufian BEASTS is what we all are.

Indo-European migrations were a mistake... natufians were the chosen ones... the real autochthons...

[Tauromachos]

Correct.
But islanders do not.

I am also sick of them claiming mainlanders and islanders have no differences... it is not true.


And you are different from Sicilians because you have West African and Slavic ancestry.

You are not real Sicilian

[Bobby Martnen]

Sicilians have Norman admixture Greeks lack, but Greeks have Slavic admixture Sicilians lack, and Greeks have about 3 times as much Slavic as Sicilians have Norman

[Tauromachos]

Sicilians have Norman admixture Greeks lack, but Greeks have Slavic admixture Sicilians lack, and Greeks have about 3 times as much Slavic as Sicilians have Norman

:confused:

Where did you read this?

Please don't say things you have no clue about or haven't researched for yourself

[Lavrentis]

Sicilians have Norman admixture Greeks lack, but Greeks have Slavic admixture Sicilians lack, and Greeks have about 3 times as much Slavic as Sicilians have Norman

The Slavic admixture in Greece is over-exaggerated in this forum. In reality, Slavic admixture exists in the far northern provinces of Greece, not in all of Greece.

[Voskos]

Mainland Greeks have nothing to do with SIcilians . The only part of the mainland that might have Sicilian-like med admix is Southern Peloponnese but even there it's less than the Hellenic admix.

[Tauromachos]

Mainland Greeks have nothing to do with SIcilians . The only part of the mainland that might have Sicilian-like med admix is Southern Peloponnese but even there it's less than the Hellenic admix.

What means this? :picard1:

Do you agree that both Mainlanders and Islanders mostly come from Hellenic people?

Yes or No?

Greeks have something to do with Sicilians and Southern Italy in general because Sicily had alot of ancient Hellenic people living there.
But there were also other people and influences in Sicily like Phoenicians for example

[Bobby Martnen]

:confused:

Where did you read this?

Please don't say things you have no clue about or haven't researched for yourself

Sicilians have some I1 Y-DNA, which is indicative of Germanic/Norman admixture. And Sikeliot showed me that Greeks have some Slavic

[Tauromachos]

Sicilians have some I1 Y-DNA, which is indicative of Germanic/Norman admixture. And Sikeliot showed me that Greeks have some Slavic

Whatever Sikeliot showed you about Greeks he is not a Scientist.

For example the study on Peloponnese Greeks showed that Slavic there doesn't exceed 15% and in particular subregions its only 1%.

In some Northern parts of Greece it might be more but....

Normans could also have other DNA types for example R1b..

[Bobby Martnen]

Whatever Sikeliot showed you about Greeks he is not a Scientist.

For example the study on Peloponnese Greeks showed that Slavic there doesn't exceed 15% and in particular subregions its only 1%.

In some Northern parts of Greece it might be more but....

Normans could also have other DNA types for example R1b..

Fair point. I still think that Sicilians have about 1/16 Norman autosomally - and also more MENA than a lot of parts of Greece

[Voskos]

What means this? :picard1:

Do you agree that both Mainlanders and Islanders mostly come from Hellenic people?

Yes or No?

Greeks have something to do with Sicilians and Southern Italy in general because Sicily had alot of ancient Hellenic people living there.
But there were also other people and influences in Sicily like Phoenicians for example


If we speak Greek and our ancestors fought for Greece/Eastern Roman Empire we are Greeks/Hellenes by definition.The rest does not interest me unless you believe a janissary from the purest hellenic region is more Hellene than a descendant of Hellenized Byzantines.

[Tauromachos]

If we speak Greek and our ancestors fought for Greece/Eastern Roman Empire we are Greeks/Hellenes by definition.The rest does not interest me unless you believe a janissary from the purest hellenic region is more Hellene than a descendant of Hellenized Byzantines.

First and foremost.

But don't buy into every bullshit spread by some trolls and self proclaimed scientists of TA.

The different Greek people of today all relate to each other genetically.

According to Triandafilids there is no geographical part of Greek population that isn't closer related to some
other Greek population than to another Non Greek population.

Also all Greeks have direct ancestry from ancient Greeks.
Note direct doesn't mean they are pure 100% ancient Mycanaeans,Minoans..

But even when someone would be 30% Slav admixed and 70% Mycanaean he would still be predominantly
descended from ancient Greeks.

So Greeks have very well the right to claim ancient Greece as their heritage even in the biological sense.

[Sikeliot]

Fair point. I still think that Sicilians have about 1/16 Norman autosomally - and also more MENA than a lot of parts of Greece

Norman DNA is absent from large parts of Sicily, it is mostly present around Trapani.

Norman DNA is present in Sicily but like in Lebanon, the influence of the Crusades is exaggerated. Normans were there primarily to convert people to Christianity, that is it.

[Bobby Martnen]

Norman DNA is absent from large parts of Sicily, it is mostly present around Trapani.

Norman DNA is present in Sicily but like in Lebanon, the influence of the Crusades is exaggerated. Normans were there primarily to convert people to Christianity, that is it.

I've seen some I1 in Palermo as well.

[Sikeliot]

Mainland Greeks have nothing to do with SIcilians . The only part of the mainland that might have Sicilian-like med admix is Southern Peloponnese but even there it's less than the Hellenic admix.

The opposite is true for the Dodecanese, Crete, and some other Aegean islands who are very similar to Sicily. Though I wonder if all of Crete is, or mostly southern/eastern Crete. Western Crete seems more 'continental' European.