Y-DNA I2a was in SouthEastern Europe BEFORE SLAVS CAME in 7th century

[Tschaikisten]

http://i.imgur.com/c4yLK8D.png

This is how I think it is.

:rotfl:
What is percent of I2a1b Dinaric not I2a as you write among the Italians, Albanians, Greeks and other med populations?
Also, you are obsessed with German ''conspiracy theory'' against Latins and Slavs.
If you score R1a, for example, should you try a suicide?

[Rethel]

I2a1b1 doesn't have anything to do with Slavs. But I2a1b2, defined by SNP L621, does:

https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

The specifically Slavic marker is actually I2a1b2a1, which is defined by SNP CTS10228.

It is very young (TMRCA estimated by Y-Full as 2200 years ago) and very widespread:

https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

So far, the only known basal sample of CTS10228* is a man from South-Eastern Poland:

I-CTS10228* id:YF01476 POL [PL-PK]

PL-PK stands for PL-Podkarpackie (Subcarpathian Voivodeship), near Ukrainian border:



Ok, so does this theory about dnieperian origin of
this dinaric subclade is based only on the hg's age
estimation and darker spot on the map frequency?

[Bosniensis]

:rotfl:
What is percent of I2a1b Dinaric not I2a as you write among the Italians, Albanians, Greeks and other med populations?
Also, you are obsessed with German ''conspiracy theory'' against Latins and Slavs.
If you score R1a, for example, should you try a suicide?

What is percent of I2a1b Dinaric not I2a as you write among the Italians, Albanians, Greeks and other med populations
The good question is: since when R1b is located in Northern Italy? Well, since they have slaughtered many J2 and I2 people there.
Do you know how R1b became 98% in Ireland and Walles? When those barbarians came, they would have slaughter every living being in
their path (It is also well documented).


If you score R1a, for example, should you try a suicide?

No, I am talking about general rule.

There are many R1 people who live among us, and they have the same stance.

I am not talking about common folk, but R1 Ruling Class:

1. British Monarchy
2. USA (Republican Party/Democratic Party) Dictatorship
3. Turkish CHP Nationalism
4. Putin's "Christianity"
etc..

THEM!
(True Slavs, Germans, Tartar Turks) = Pie.

Those are Turco-Germanic PIE Rulers today that have enslaved us.

Common German who says: "My government is oppressing Greeks" or similar is no different to us.

But Generally R1 Civilization is sticking together and are enjoying 10x more of everything in comparison
to "Old Europeans"

That's why you see: Greece bankrupt, Serbia is dying, Bosnia is dying, Bulgaria is dying (all enslaved populace)

Roman Empire that was unifying force behind Balkans, Italia, Anatolia has been destroyed by exhaustion of
fighting with R1 hordes, and we have lost:

1. Africa to Arabs
2. Anatolia to Turks
3. Gaul to Franks
4. Italia to Lombards (Germans) after Two Sicilies
joined them
5. Hispania (to Vandals) also Germanics

and not only that. They have managed to turn us against each other through many ways
Political, Cultural, Religious.. and we are still fighting each other because we still havent'
found a true enemy.

Romans from 13th century have explained my stance in this short brochure:
http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/11101/4231

It was commented by a German who is "shocked" with the "Byzantine Views" of the west.
Just as I am shocked with modern Europe and universality accepted NEW philosophical thought.

I suggest everyone to read it.

[Peterski]

R1b in Europe is just as Indo-European as R1a. And both came from the Steppe.

However, R1b comes from Vucedol Indo-Europeans, while R1a from Corded Ware Indo-Europeans:

https://media.giphy.com/media/JA4zHDeZ1Jib6/giphy.gif

At least R1b-P312 comes from Vucedol population (R1b-U106 is more elusive):

http://i.imgur.com/SGFKMpL.png

[Ülev]

What is percent of I2a1b Dinaric not I2a as you write among the Italians, Albanians, Greeks and other med populations
The good question is: since when R1b is located in Northern Italy? Well, since they have slaughtered many J2 and I2 people there.
Do you know how R1b became 98% in Ireland and Walles? When those barbarians came, they would have slaughter every living being in
their path (It is also well documented).


If you score R1a, for example, should you try a suicide?

No, I am talking about general rule.

There are many R1 people who live among us, and they have the same stance.

I am not talking about common folk, but R1 Ruling Class:

1. British Monarchy
2. USA (Republican Party/Democratic Party) Dictatorship
3. Turkish CHP Nationalism
4. Putin's "Christianity"
etc..

THEM!
(True Slavs, Germans, Tartar Turks) = Pie.

Those are Turco-Germanic PIE Rulers today that have enslaved us.

Common German who says: "My government is oppressing Greeks" or similar is no different to us.

But Generally R1 Civilization is sticking together and are enjoying 10x more of everything in comparison
to "Old Europeans"

That's why you see: Greece bankrupt, Serbia is dying, Bosnia is dying, Bulgaria is dying (all enslaved populace)

Roman Empire that was unifying force behind Balkans, Italia, Anatolia has been destroyed by exhaustion of
fighting with R1 hordes, and we have lost:

1. Africa to Arabs
2. Anatolia to Turks
3. Gaul to Franks
4. Italia to Lombards (Germans) after Two Sicilies
joined them
5. Hispania (to Vandals) also Germanics

and not only that. They have managed to turn us against each other through many ways
Political, Cultural, Religious.. and we are still fighting each other because we still havent'
found a true enemy.

Romans from 13th century have explained my stance in this short brochure:
http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/11101/4231

It was commented by a German who is "shocked" with the "Byzantine Views" of the west.
Just as I am shocked with modern Europe and universality accepted NEW philosophical thought.

I suggest everyone to read it.

I like this! +


Mongoloids, Baltids and european Alpines are related. A Baltid can have more Mongoloid-like features and a european Alpine less(pseudo-mongoloid), still they all originate from central Asia.

and some others alpinised phenotypes like Borreby etc.

make sense

[Tschaikisten]

Do you know how R1b became 98% in Ireland and Walles? When those barbarians came, they would have slaughter every living being in
They massacred I people, and please don't try to teach me how R1 people destroyed Europe, maybe in your sick anti-western mind.

The good question is: since when R1b is located in Northern Italy?
R1b is located in Northern Italy since Indo-European invasion, so bronze age time.
And here we talk about R1b-U152, not R1B.

Well, since they have slaughtered many J2 and I2 people there.
They never slaughtered I2 people there, since there was never been I2a people in high percent.
Also, you must understand that in pre-indo-european history of Apennine peninsula lived people with different genetics.
G2a2 in the north (in the Alps to be precise), J2 in central and E-V13 in southern Apennine.




No, I am talking about general rule.

There are many R1 people who live among us, and they have the same stance.

I am not talking about common folk, but R1 Ruling Class:

1. British Monarchy
2. USA (Republican Party/Democratic Party) Dictatorship
3. Turkish CHP Nationalism
4. Putin's "Christianity"
etc..

THEM!
(True Slavs, Germans, Tartar Turks) = Pie.

Those are Turco-Germanic PIE Rulers today that have enslaved us.

Common German who says: "My government is oppressing Greeks" or similar is no different to us.

But Generally R1 Civilization is sticking together and are enjoying 10x more of everything in comparison
to "Old Europeans"

That's why you see: Greece bankrupt, Serbia is dying, Bosnia is dying, Bulgaria is dying (all enslaved populace)

Roman Empire that was unifying force behind Balkans, Italia, Anatolia has been destroyed by exhaustion of
fighting with R1 hordes, and we have lost:

1. Africa to Arabs
2. Anatolia to Turks
3. Gaul to Franks
4. Italia to Lombards (Germans) after Two Sicilies
joined them
5. Hispania (to Vandals) also Germanics

and not only that. They have managed to turn us against each other through many ways
Political, Cultural, Religious.. and we are still fighting each other because we still havent'
found a true enemy.

Romans from 13th century have explained my stance in this short brochure:
http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/11101/4231

It was commented by a German who is "shocked" with the "Byzantine Views" of the west.
Just as I am shocked with modern Europe and universality accepted NEW philosophical thought.

I suggest everyone to read it.
:rofl:
Your views about genetics are politican, so visit Psychiatric hospital. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatric_hospital)
CAN YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR CHAUVINIST WORDS AGAINST R1 PEOPLE ARE SICK!!!
Y-DNA RESERACHS AND GENETICS ABOUT ABOUT IT ARE NOT OLDER THAN 15 YEARS, AND NOW YOU TRYING TO TEACH US HOW R1 PEOPLE HAVE A CONSPIRACY AGAINST WHOLE GLOBE?!

[Rethel]

[B]They massacred I people,

Sorry EN, here I must say something seriously,
because it were probably G-people who did it
in Ireland :) Autosomal suggests it anyway. :)


HOW R1 PEOPLE HAVE A CONSPIRACY AGAINST WHOLE GLOBE?!

We are constantly conspiring, how to make other
tribes to live in technologically advanced society :p

[Tschaikisten]

Sorry EN, here I must say something seriously,
because it were probably G-people who did it
in Ireland :) Autosomal suggests it anyway. :)


My only ysearch match on 23 markers is from Ireland. :P
http://i.imgur.com/Ce86kLW.jpg

[Rethel]

My only ysearch match on 23 markers is from Ireland. :P
http://i.imgur.com/Ce86kLW.jpg

I should be more specific.
You did massacre them probably demografically.
More food + more free time = more G-babies :p

[Bosniensis]

They massacred I people, and please don't try to teach me how R1 people destroyed Europe, maybe in your sick anti-western mind.

R1b is located in Northern Italy since Indo-European invasion, so bronze age time.
And here we talk about R1b-U152, not R1B.

They never slaughtered I2 people there, since there was never been I2a people in high percent.
Also, you must understand that in pre-indo-european history of Apennine peninsula lived people with different genetics.
G2a2 in the north (in the Alps to be precise), J2 in central and E-V13 in southern Apennine.


:rofl:
Your views about genetics are politican, so visit Psychiatric hospital. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatric_hospital)
CAN YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR CHAUVINIST WORDS AGAINST R1 PEOPLE ARE SICK!!!
Y-DNA RESERACHS AND GENETICS ABOUT ABOUT IT ARE NOT OLDER THAN 15 YEARS, AND NOW YOU TRYING TO TEACH US HOW R1 PEOPLE HAVE A CONSPIRACY AGAINST WHOLE GLOBE?!

People related to each other by ancestry in the past, not by so called "nations".
European's from 1st, second, third century KNEW that those people are foreigners.

You can call them R1 today. But back then they were known as "barbarians", "aliens", "foreigners".

Keep laughing, join them.

Haven't you heard the latest news today?

American administration is building an "Kosovo Army"... they are already at your neck. /sadly

Take care.

[Tschaikisten]

People related to each other by ancestry in the past, not by so called "nations".
European's from 1st, second, third century KNEW that those people are foreigners.

You can call them R1 today. But back then they were known as "barbarians", "aliens", "foreigners".

Keep laughing, join them.

Haven't you heard the latest news today?

American administration is building an "Kosovo Army"... they are already at your neck. /sadly

Take care.

Is american administration R1 adminstration? :rotfl:

[Bosniensis]

Is american administration R1 adminstration? :rotfl:

http://i.imgur.com/C9USpPQ.png

[Tschaikisten]

http://i.imgur.com/C9USpPQ.png

So what? They even can be I1, I2a, anyway, you are sick person, because you watch history and things from the Y-dna view point.

[Hamlet]

Haplogroups determine nothing in terms of an individuals genetic makeup, it's just an indicator to see which tribe somebody was from originally.

[Bosniensis]

So what? They even can be I1, I2a, anyway, you are sick person, because you watch history and things from the Y-dna view point.

I am sick because I consider south slavs related to each other and a single group of peoples, while you are NOT sick cause
you are observing world through imaginary invented "nations".

I've read in several books where it's stated that Celts, Illyrians, Etruscans, Ancient Hellenic states are related to each other, while
in all of them it is stated that "Scythians; Sarmatians, etc.." are NOT and that means = Foreigners.

You see, ancient Romans did knew the difference between Celts and Franks... and the difference was Huge like between a Chinese and Arab.

What I call "R1" is just that... Indo-European group of peoples who do not originate from Europe, previously known by NAMES.

When a noble lady from Greece wrote to Pope Nicholas I a letter in Greek, he could not read it, and Pope wrote to Michael III (Emperor of Constantinople)
to change the prayers and language back to Latin, where Michael III responded: "That corrupt language you call nowdays Latin is something else,
it's a language of Scythians (foreigners)"... or what we nowdays call "Romance languages".

So Michael III knew that indo-europeans were foreigners and also the group of people who are stealing the identity.

[Rethel]

Bosnia
Hellenic
Illyrian
ROME (S.P.Q.R)


Are you aware, that all of this, what you definy yourself by, is basically... R1 too, aren't you?

[Rethel]

Haplogroups determine nothing in terms of an individuals genetic makeup

Why always some guy must show up with such
statement, when people do not even claim, that
Y determine some general genetic makeup?

The need of saying something clever, or what? :picard2:

On, and on, and on - always somebody has to.

[Bosniensis]

Are you aware, that all of this, what you definy yourself by, is basically... R1 too, aren't you?

Who told you that lie?

I've heard a theory that everyone is indo-european, that everyone came from caucasus. That's a lie, a pathetic lie.

Alexander the Great has built a Gates of Alexander towards Caucasus just so he could defend his realm against Indo-Europans.

Cyrus the Great has built a Derial Gorge wall against Indo European people,

So NO!

Greeks and Romans are NOT Indo-European people.

South Slavs (me), we are Slavophone Illyrians. That was suspected by the Greek scholars of old who wrote that "South Slavs are Illyrians", and
it has been confirmed by I2 Y-DNA being Proto-European only recently. Also South Slavs are Dinarids, while other slavs are usually Not.
Illyrians were Dinaric race.

I have nothing against indo-europeans on personal level, but on global agenda.. well they have their unique plans.

[Hamlet]

Why always some guy must show up with such
statement, when people do not even claim, that
Y determine some general genetic makeup?

The need of saying something clever, or what? :picard2:

On, and on, and on - always somebody has to.

But you guys were speaking about the American administration being R1?

[Ülev]

https://s24.postimg.org/dkfxikclx/R1ethelians.jpg







(bump)

[Robocop]

..

Man, it seems you finally found your rival in terms of loving your Y-DNA :D.

Sinan Zirić is obviously your doppelganger in terms of loving Y-DNA, only he is from I2 world, you from R1, now... let the Duel of Worlds begins (Rethel & Litvin VS Sinan Zirić):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7w4x3S2lag

P.S. But he will not be like me in that duel (Anakin) it seems, this guy will go to the very end about Y-DNA supremacy Rethel :D. Watch out.

[Ülev]

^^ but the winner is L1 y-dna

[Robocop]

That's when they established contact with non-barbarians (people who could write).

Doesn't mean that they didn't exist before. They invaded the Balkans in V century.

Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Roman historian and Senator was writing about Slavs in 1st century.

He named Slavs with true name which Slavs had (given to them by Germanic tribes); Venedae/Veneti.

Tacitus is writing about them (without a doubt) from Germanic sources (because Romans couldn't make contact with Slavs/Venedae/Veneti directly in that period) where he says that Venedae/Veneti (Slavs) are eastern neighbours of Germanics, and that Germanics called them Venedae/Veneti.

To be totally precise; He was uncertain of their ethnic identity, classifying them as Germans (by mistake) based on their way of life but not based on their language (which wasn't germanic).


^^ but the winner is L1 y-dna

Oh you don't know some I2 ppl troughout Internet like I do from other forums, like for example when I was on Eupedia long time ago, I was always transparent about views considering my Y-DNA, but some of ppl who belongs to that same Y-DNA will go practically to the edge of racism toward others, I was wondering when will some of those guys come to this forum (no offence Sinan, respect your views, even though I don't agree completely with them), for them... Everyone else who doesn't belong to I1 or I2 or I2c or I2b is...well... Less worthy Human and European (by origin) lol.

So Rethel doesn't know (and I warned him once about them) where he involved himself lol.

[Rethel]

But you guys were speaking about the American administration being R1?

And what? What it has to do with your statement?
If we would talking about left handed people, you
would also came with announcement, that the left
handness makes a small percentage of the general
genetic makeup? :confused:

[Rethel]

Who told you that lie?
I've heard a theory that everyone is indo-european, that everyone came from caucasus. That's a lie, a pathetic lie.
Alexander the Great has built a Gates of Alexander towards Caucasus just so he could defend his realm against Indo-Europans.
Cyrus the Great has built a Derial Gorge wall against Indo European people,
So NO!
Greeks and Romans are NOT Indo-European people.
South Slavs (me), we are Slavophone Illyrians. That was suspected by the Greek scholars of old who wrote that "South Slavs are Illyrians", and
it has been confirmed by I2 Y-DNA being Proto-European only recently. Also South Slavs are Dinarids, while other slavs are usually Not.
Illyrians were Dinaric race.
I have nothing against indo-europeans on personal level, but on global agenda.. well they have their unique plans.

I do not see any point in disscusing with you, but
I have one question: do you have an ambition to
win the TA's championship in speaking double-dutch?

Belive me - you probably are first in the line at that moment. :)

[Rethel]

Man, it seems you finally found your rival in terms of loving your Y-DNA :D.

I deeply doubt. Firstly he make no sense at all, secondly,
he calls IE nations, non-IE, thridly - he has no idea who
he is himself, and fourthly - he can't even make a one
rational statement (exept gloryfying us of course :) )

How can he loves his Y, if he doesn;t know it?
I bet, he is of different hg than he wish to be :)
So - he is rather selfhater. :p


Sinan Zirić is obviously your doppelganger in terms of loving Y-DNA, only he is from I2 world, you from R1, now... let the Duel of Worlds begins (Rethel & Litvin VS Sinan Zirić):

And where are you? :)

Btw - HE IS NOT I2.


P.S. But he will not be like me in that duel (Anakin) it seems, this guy will go to the very end about Y-DNA supremacy Rethel :D. Watch out.

Disscussion with him is totaly pointless. How can you expect rational disscussion
with someone who is speaking double dutch? It is pointless, like disscutions with
turanist retards, finnic nordicists, balkanian supremacists or hungarian "we dont
know what we want, but you must be constantly saying: Hungary Akbar!" :)

[Rethel]

Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Roman historian and Senator was writing about Slavs in 1st century.

But Ptolemeus also recorded some Suovianoi near Volga,
and still is not know the role of Antes (who were known
even to Hans), Serbian connections with Caucasus and
Croat connections with Kubań.


He named Slavs with true name which Slavs had (given to them by Germanic tribes); Venedae/Veneti.

They could absorbed rest of these above. Probably even
Slavs/Sklavens were a different cotribe. If you will focus
of tribal division, you can find at least some 5 if not more
transslavic tribes, which can be some kind of cosubstrat
of Slavic confederacy which remained traces among many
tribal naming. In that case Slavs per se would be one of
participants, which gave the name to all of them, but still
remained in some areas a different subtribe. This is my own
onomastic theory, I think to some high degree probable.


So Rethel doesn't know (and I warned him once about them) where he involved himself lol.

I dream about worthy interlocutor who respects himself
and other folks - as I do, and try show an example. Some
people, who are not respecting themselves, or have some
complexes about themsleves are missreading me.

[Robocop]

And where are you? :)


Oh I am transparent I2a person, I dont give so much attention to it in terms that I would go around and throw it into anyone's "face", only respect it as paternal ancestry, that's it.

:)

[Rethel]

only respect it as paternal ancestry, that's it.

And it is everything I ever wanted :)

[Lek]

The Serbs are more Thracian/Ilyrian than Bosniaks or Croats based on autosomal and general genetics. They are genetically the South Slavs closest to Albanians together with the Bulgarians. But its Bosniaks and Croats, who have these identity crisis the most, ironically the people least associated to the paleo balkanites have now developed the biggest identity crisis seen since Michael Jackson bleached his skin white.

If anything, Bulgarians should claim Paleo-Balkan ancestry. But even that becomes pointless when it doesnt go with the language or culture

[Robocop]

The Serbs are more Thracian/Ilyrian than Bosniaks or Croats based on autosomal and general genetics.

This is true.

[Bosniensis]

This is true.

Of course it is, Serbs have been part of Roman Empire way longer, and have mixed with Greece through royality like:

Kantakouzenos, Palaeologus etc..

and that's just royality, situtation with common folk is even more extreme.

[Robocop]

Of course it is, Serbs have been part of Roman Empire way longer, and have mixed with Greece through royality like:

Kantakouzenos, Palaeologus etc..

and that's just royality, situtation with common folk is even more extreme.

Well every autosomal DNA map shows that Croats and Bosniaks are different from rest of "Balkans", this first autosomal DNA map is maybe the best ever autosomal map:


https://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/c5c86-europeanautosomalcomplex.png?w=645

And this second map is based on first map:


https://i.imgur.com/2ufwMeL.png

[Lek]

Of course it is, Serbs have been part of Roman Empire way longer, and have mixed with Greece through royality like:

Kantakouzenos, Palaeologus etc..

and that's just royality, situtation with common folk is even more extreme.

Its not from mixing with Greeks. Its from asimilated Albanians and Vlachs i.e Thracians/Ilyrians.

Croats and Bosniaks have a Ilyrian/Thracian element too but its less compared to the Serbs or Bulgarians.

Romanians and Greeks have Slavic input.

Albanians have some foreign elements too.

Nobody is really "pure". It Rather depends on the individual.

[Robocop]

Its not from mixing with Greeks. Its from asimilated Albanians and Vlachs i.e Thracians/Ilyrians.

Croats and Bosniaks have a Ilyrian/Thracian element too but its less compared to the Serbs or Bulgarians.

But there is a difference between how Croats approach Illyrian thing and Bosniaks.

Bosniaks often claims they're Illyrians (by default going against Albanians with that), Croats would never do such thing, we know that we have nothing to do with Illyrians, nothing, and we always viewed Albanians as Illyrians only.

That is the great difference between how Bosniaks view Illyrian thing, and how Croats view it.

Also, one could say that Croats are 3 times more connected to Slavs by autosomal DNA than Serbs, but yet Serbs are like obsessed with Slavic thing, and we are not.

We dont want anything from slavic union, and we dont claim anything Illyrian. :)

[Bosniensis]

But there is a difference between how Croats approach Illyrian thing and Bosniaks.

Bosniaks often claims they're Illyrians (by default going against Albanians with that), Croats would never do such thing, we know we have nothing to do with Illyrians, nothing, and we always viewed Albanians as Illyrians only.

That is great difference between how Bosniaks view Illyrian thing, and Croats.

Illyrian Movement was a Croatian Idea.

All Croatians and Bosniaks are mostly Romanized Illyrian who were later Slavicized and are now Slavophone Illyrians, that's the FACT.

People who are predominantly Dinaric Race or Epirotic Race are Illyrians/Thracians.

Croats certainly are Slavophone Illyrians.

[Robocop]

Illyrian Movement was a Croatian Idea.

That was political movement which had nothing to do with actual Illyrians, term was used just as symbol, not ethnicity.



All Croatians and Bosniaks are mostly Romanized Illyrian who were later Slavicized and are now Slavophone Illyrians, that's the FACT.

I dont agree, how can you know who were Illyrians and who were not in Pannonia and lower areas beneath Pannonia? Only because Romans called them like that? I think you use Illyrian term without right, no offence. But If you Bosniaks want to be Illyrians, ok, but please leave us out of it :).



People who are predominantly Dinaric Race or Epirotic Race are Illyrians/Thracians.

Croats certainly are Slavophone Illyrians.

Well Croats (except Herzegovian Croats) are not of Dinaric race.

Croats are mostly Noric, Atlanto, Alpine, Pontid (now and then, not as much as Atlanto), Gorid, many of Baltids in Northern Croatia, and rest of Croats are Dinarics.

But Croats are not predominant Dinarics by any means, none what so ever, no way.

Dinarics are only one element here out of many I named now.

[Bosniensis]

That was political movement which had nothing to do with actual Illyrians, term was used just as symbol, not ethnicity.



I dont agree, how can you know who were Illyrians and who were not? Only because Romans called them like that? I think you use Illyrian term without right, no offence. If you Bosniaks want to be Illyrians, ok, but please leave us out of it :).



Well Croats (except Herzegovian Croats) are not of Dinaric race.

Croats are mostly Noric, Atlanto, Alpine, Pontid (now and then, not as much as Atlanto), Gorid, and rest are Dinarics.

Well Bosniaks and Serbs are predominatnly Dinarids, I've taught that Croats were too as well.. :S

[Robocop]

Well Bosniaks and Serbs are predominatnly Dinarids, I've taught that Croats were too as well.. :S

Well, no. We have Dinarics ofcourse, but they're not dominant.

Take a look only at this random Dalmatians (south Croats) from my town: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?201372-Random-people-(Dalmatian-Croats)-from-my-Town-pass-best-in-which-of-this-countries

Not to mention Northern Croats.

Far from be called; Dinarics.

We are as ppl some sort of mix of Norics, Atlanto, Dinarics, Gorids, Alpines, Alpinization almost everywhere.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Haplogroup I is one of the oldest Haplogroups in Europe I think. Its huntergather. I just split into I1 and I2. Thats why you dont find I2 outside of Europe

[Rethel]

Croats certainly are Slavophone Illyrians.

Illirians ended 2200 years ago, Slavs came 1400 years ago.
Between that you have 800 years of romanisation, mixing, resettling aso.

Btw, how these, who came in VIIth century, can be Illirians? :picard2:

If you want to be specific, then you must said: Croatian citizens consist
Oldeuropeans (7 different folks), Illirians, Romans, Hungarians and Slavs,
who gave the language and the identity to the whole Republic.

[Rethel]

https://i.imgur.com/2ufwMeL.png

From this diagram the most interesting thing is, that
Poles, Norwegians, Swedes and Belarussians are together :)


Thats why you dont find I2 outside of Europe

It is in Africa, Asia, Australia and Americas. :)

[Bosniensis]

Illirians ended 2200+ years ago, Slavs came 1400 years ago.
Between that you have 800 years of romanisation, mixing, resettling aso.

Btw, how these, who came in VIIth century, can be Illirians? :picard2:

If you want to be specific, then you must said: Croatian citizens consist
Oldeuropeans (7 different folks), Illirians, Romans, Hungarians and Slavs,
who gave the language and the identity to the whole Republic.

There is like 15-20% R1a people in Serbia.. Those are the true Slavs who ruled
the Balkans but couldn't destroy the people who lived on the mountain tops etc.. like "Gorani people,
Albanians" etc.. entire Bosnia is mountainous region.

I2 (Illyrians) multiplied, and became Slavophone because true Slavs imposed Slavic language as the primary language.

Illyrians were the backward people in the sense that they did not want the progress in the way superpowers wanted.

Illyrians even fought Roman Empire alone, they finally lost after Batonian wars and became Romanized.

Nobody complained on this theory this far... It's only before DNA testing that people were suspicious abut that,
even before DNA people in Bosnia and parts of Croatia couldn't accept "Slavic identity" as granted, they were like...
"Not really".

finally
75% Bosniaks and Serbs belong to "Epirotic Race" or Dinaric race, that's enough for me.

[Rethel]

There is like 15-20% R1a people in Serbia.. Those are the true Slavs who ruled
the Balkans but couldn't destroy the people who lived on the mountain tops etc.. like "Gorani people,
Albanians" etc.. entire Bosnia is mountainous region.

Are you aware, that amoung those "surrvival groups" are not only R1 people, but they all speak R1 language?
So how the hell can you make from this an assumption, that they are surrvivers? :picard1:


I2 (Illyrians) multiplied, and became Slavophone because true Slavs imposed Slavic language as the primary language.

Aren't you aware, that Illirians were IEs too, speaking IE language and having a lot of R1 people? :picard1:


75% Bosniaks and Serbs belong to "Epirotic Race" or Dinaric race, that's enough for me.

And what?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

It is in Africa, Asia, Australia and Americas. :)

I2 is only found in africa because of colonization of africa. Theres no Older forms haplogroup I found in africa I think nor any old remains found with haplogroup I. Haplogroup I in asia you might be right. Theres a case of Europeans found in asia but the remains were celtic so its more likely r1b in asia. Also r1b is more common in central asia/ south asia then I.

The question is which areas is r1b and I / I2 more diversified at

[Robocop]

I2 is only found in africa because of colonization of africa. Theres no Older forms haplogroup I found in africa I think nor any old remains found with haplogroup I. Haplogroup I in asia you might be right. Theres a case of Europeans found in asia but the remains were celtic so its more likely r1b in asia. Also r1b is more common in central asia/ south asia then I.

The question is which areas is r1b and I / I2 more diversified at

True.

Some ppl just cannot handle the fact that I2 ppl are Europeans to the (paternal) bone :).

Yes, all europeans came from outside of Europe at one point, but our I Y-DNA lineage was one of the oldest here, not sayin we are special, just sayin... :D

[Bosniensis]

Are you aware, that amoung those "surrvival groups" are not only R1 people, but they all speak R1 language?
So how the hell can you make from this an assumption, that they are surrvivers? :picard1:



Aren't you aware, that Illirians were IEs too, speaking IE language and having a lot of R1 people? :picard1:



And what?


R1 people did not came by force. Roman Emperor GAVE them the land, because Illyrians traditionally
(those who were not Romanized) refused to have anything with Romans and Constantinople.

Illyrians could never be ruled, they were like barbarians hiding in Bosnia and Serbia, Romans ignored
them cause there wasn't a good reason to fight them anyway (they were poor).

There were Illyrian/Thracian tribes in Serbia that got actually Romanized, and whose people through service
in Roman Legions in 2nd century have produced few Emperors like Diocletian, Probus etc..

Illyrians are distant cousins of Greeks, and close cousins of Etruscans. Illyrians
lived like Barbarians through their numerous "Illyrian Tribal Confederations" unlike Romans who tolerated
them cause they were "related" by the ancient Roman myths "check King Cadmus etc.."

So those Slavs who ruled in the name of Emperor of Constantinople, managed to Slavicize all Illyrians
and unite the western balkans as a Slavic-Illyrian provinces of Eastern Roman Empire and later as Croatia/Bosnia/Serbian Empire.

Truth is, it doesn't matter nowdays, but genetics IS important, and it's important to understand that Illyrians
continued to exist as South Slavs nowdays.

[Rethel]

I2 is only found in africa because of colonization of africa.

No, a lot of I is in Egypt, especially southern, and among Nubians.


Haplogroup I in asia you might be right. Theres a case of Europeans found in asia but the remains were celtic so its more likely r1b in asia. Also r1b is more common in central asia south asia then I.

No. I in Asia is the most old. Three places where is the highet
diversity is Abkhasia, Irak and Cylicia (more or less, I do not
remember exact places). In Kurdistan I is about 17%, but in
the western Iran even 24%.

[Rethel]

True.

Some ppl just cannot handle the fact that I2 ppl are Europeans to the (paternal) bone :).

Yes, all europeans came from outside of Europe at one point, but our I Y-DNA lineage was one of the oldest here, not sayin we are special, just sayin... :D

Aborigens were first. This is why they were
named like that. Now, everyone who live in
Europe is European, even A1. Tribal identity
is more important than continental.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

No, a lot of I is in Egypt, especially southern, and among Nubians.



No. I in Asia is the most old. Three places where is the highet
diversity is Abkhasia, Irak and Cylicia (more or less, I do not
remember exact places). In Kurdistan I is about 17%, but in
the western Iran even 24%.

They also have r1b?
But if they have I show me some results and what subclades

[Rethel]

R1 people did not came by force. Roman Emperor GAVE them the land, because Illyrians traditionally
(those who were not Romanized) refused to have anything with Romans and Constantinople.

Illyrians could never be ruled, they were like barbarians hiding in Bosnia and Serbia, Romans ignored
them cause there wasn't a good reason to fight them anyway (they were poor).

There were Illyrian/Thracian tribes in Serbia that got actually Romanized, and whose people through service
in Roman Legions in 2nd century have produced few Emperors like Diocletian, Probus etc..

Illyrians are distant cousins of Greeks, and close cousins of Etruscans. Illyrians
lived like Barbarians through their numerous "Illyrian Tribal Confederations" unlike Romans who tolerated
them cause they were "related" by the ancient Roman myths "check King Cadmus etc.."

So those Slavs who ruled in the name of Emperor of Constantinople, managed to Slavicize all Illyrians
and unite the western balkans as a Slavic-Illyrian provinces of Eastern Roman Empire and later as Croatia/Bosnia/Serbian Empire.

Truth is, it doesn't matter nowdays, but genetics IS important, and it's important to understand that Illyrians
continued to exist as South Slavs nowdays.

I see, you are talking with yourself. Ok, have fun.

[Rethel]

They also have r1b?

Yes, they have.
Maybe they came to Egypt together,
or maybe "I" did split from the asian "I".


But if they have I show me some results and what subclades

Idk, but here you can find it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosome_haplogroups_by_populations

I guess, hugly it will be I2.

[Ülev]

I see, you are talking with yourself. Ok, have fun.

no, he sounds rightly to me

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Yes, they have.
Maybe they came to Egypt together,
or maybe "I" did split from the asian "I".



Idk, but here you can find it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosome_haplogroups_by_populations

I guess, hugly it will be I2.

You have to check your evidence before you present it

North africa: Highest countries with I:
https://s29.postimg.org/7e57fxwdj/bandicam_2017_02_02_10_55_40_836.jpg

Highest with R1b
https://s28.postimg.org/7ezsp6za5/bandicam_2017_02_02_10_59_12_317.jpg

Middle east highest with I
https://s23.postimg.org/6j9dkjla3/bandicam_2017_02_02_10_56_05_453.jpg
Highest with R1b
https://s24.postimg.org/3s4o3anb9/bandicam_2017_02_02_10_56_08_910.jpg

No haplogroup I in this list for Subsaharan africa:
https://s27.postimg.org/3vebinilv/bandicam_2017_02_02_10_56_30_176.jpg

[Ülev]

I2a1a1 (m26)

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/gothorum1/us%20army/I2a1_zps7ypxptsj.jpg

[Rethel]

You have to check your evidence before you present it

And what I suppousedly didn't check according to you? :picard1:

Are you again disscusing with your imagination, as you used before?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

And what I suppousedly didn't check according to you? :picard1:

Are you again disscusing with your imagination, as you used before?

you said I was in nubia. But what you linked to me, showed no haplogroup I in subsahara africa.
There might be, I don't know but your link doesn't show me that. I could be wrong though I just looked at the table.

[davai]

Ma, krindž bre. Šta se drkaš toliko oko toga koikurac?))

na ovom pitanju bilo je rada sa strane hrvatskih antropologa, navodno neke Anite Sujoldžić.

http://www.anthroinsula.org/resources/Iliri-english%20text%20version.pdf
http://www.anthroinsula.org/resources/Iliri%20-spanish%20presentation.pdf

a također, pre toga, na nekoj antropološkoj konferenciji održanoj u mađarskoj bio je predstavljen i sledeći rad..

http://bib.irb.hr/prikazi-rad?rad=256968


Population History Of The Eastern Adriatic: Parallels In Historical Surname And Current Genetic Variation

Using a regional approach, the study continues previous research aimed at depicting the history of human migrations in the Eastern Adriatic by comparing genetic, cultural and linguistic differences that reflect different aspects of its history. The previously obtained results indicated quite a heterogeneous ethnic composition of the historic Pre-Slavic populations named Illyrians, and clearly demonstrated a clear north-western/southeastern gradient pointing a remarkable discrimination of the Northern Adriatic from other East Adriatic populations. They also showed that in spite of subsequent romanization and more recent settlement of Slavic populations and other demographic events in the region, the traces of genetic individuality of prehistoric peoples have been to a certain degree preserved through the process of assimilation. The present study is therefore directed toward further understanding of the processes that caused the patterns by applying the Monmonier's maximum difference algorithm. The method provides a more detailed visualization of the geographic patterns of variation by identifying the “ barriers” or genetic boundaries and enables a better interpretation of microevolutionary processes through the identification of hidden boundaries resulting from secondary gene flow among previously isolated populations. The present analysis is focused on the comparison of two different boundary maps: one based on the regional distribution of genetic markers obtained by typing the human Y chromosome that reflects genetic differences between populations linked to the populations’ past demographic history, and the other is based on the regional distribution of the recorded Illyrian, pre-Slavic surnames used as a proxy to Y-chromosome genetic variation. The results obtained affirm the usefulness of the method applied and provide a further historical and geographic insight into the role of the local migrations and cultural factors responsible for regional genetic diversity.

To je verovatno samo nastavak neke prošle studije ali svejedno, bilo bi interesantno doznati šta kaže i tamo. Ja na žalost nemam dostupa do toga zbornika u našim knjižarama, jer ga nemamo. Otišo bi inače tražit sam.

a ima ga sigurno kod vas, budi dobar i skoči do knjižare pa vidi za tu studiju. Nači češ je u Man and Environment : Trends and Challenges in Anthropology : Programme and Abstracts.

[davai]

All Croatians and Bosniaks are mostly Romanized Illyrian who were later Slavicized and are now Slavophone Illyrians, that's the FACT.

South Slavic is genetically linked to West and East Slavic. It is pure Slavic language in forms, structure and does not have any other substrates unlike other Balkan languages (Vlach, Rumanian etc.). South Slavic languages also share some common innovations with Czech and Slovak languages, while BG/MK with Eastern or Russian.

http://shrani.si/f/u/oK/13yTHVwT/rascepslovenskogjezika.png


People who are predominantly Dinaric Race or Epirotic Race are Illyrians/Thracians.

Neither Illyrians or Thracians were Dinaric.


Croats certainly are Slavophone Illyrians.

Dalmatians maybe, to some degree. There can be traced relicts of Dalmatic language from Montenegro up to Dalmatia and on east to Herzegovina.

[Rethel]

you said I was in nubia. But what you linked to me, showed no haplogroup I in subsahara africa.

Nubia is not all subsaharian Afrcia. :picard1:


There might be, I don't know but your link doesn't show me that. I could be wrong though I just looked at the table.

Look more carefully.

63963
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=63963&d=1486117629

[Rethel]

Neither Illyrians or Thracians were Dinaric.

So, who was?

[Bosniensis]

So, who was?

According to official Yugoslav history .. Slavs have settled themselves on empty land.

That's like greatest joke ever.

Even if I am unable to give 100% correct answer about the Slavs, Illyrians and Thracians I honestly
still believe that modern South Slavs are like 70% Slavophone natives + 30% R1a/b true indo-european slavs.

[Rethel]

South Slavs are 30% R1a/b true indo-european

At least once you said something sane :)

[Bosniensis]

At least once you said something sane :)

Once I save some money I'll do DNA test, imagine me being R1b or a ahhahahahh

It's unlikely but possible.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Nubia is not all subsaharian Afrcia. :picard1:



Look more carefully.

63963
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=63963&d=1486117629

https://www.loc.gov/rr/amed/guide/afr-countrylist.html

and I didn't say they were absolutely no I in nubia. I said the chart doesn't show. Because I click in the links by region. In fact I said they probably were I in nubia

[Rethel]

Once I save some money I'll do DNA test, imagine me being R1b or a ahhahahahh

Maybe with such knowledge you would be healthier :p

[Ülev]

el bumpo

[Bosniensis]

el bumpo

Why bump this archived thread ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ülev]

Why bump this archived thread ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am just a great fan of IJ y-dna

[flowers00]

I2 is Megalithic it marks the split between Paleolithic and Megalithic migrations to the Balkans

[flowers00]

I am just a great fan of IJ y-dna

IJ marks the Proto European races of Mediterraneans

I is Proto Nordic J is Proto Mediterranean

http://arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/Yhaplotree.jpg

[Drawing-slim]

I2 is Megalithic it marks the split between Paleolithic and Megalithic migrations to the Balkans

I2 has been in the balkans no longer than 1500 years, which correlates perfectly with the arrival of slavs.

[Peterski]

So how do you explain the presence of I2a-Din in Early Medieval Russia and Poland?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225194-Y-DNA-in-Early-Medieval-Poland&p=4728581&viewfull=1#post4728581


NA_13, Niemcza, (Early Medieval Poland, 900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223690-Early-Medieval-Russian-DNA&p=4696529&viewfull=1#post4696529


Sunghir6 (Early Medieval Russia, 1040-1220 AD), Y-DNA I2a1b2a1a1a1a3-A16681

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/54.75/32.61

https://i.imgur.com/YY7Wp0k.png

[Bosniensis]

Of course that I2 was found in Poland...

But people should know that I populace came from Balkans cause it belonged to IJ distant group.

I2 people are these: (as Herodotus described):

https://i.imgur.com/Y4axYXN.jpg

[Ülev]

Dacians, Dacians everywhere... and here ---> http://adevaruldespredaci.ro/

[Rethel]

:picard2:

[Ülev]

:picard2:

what Rethel, what?
the truth will set you free

[Rethel]

what Rethel, what?
the truth will set you free

##324, 325.

[Peterski]

I find it hard to believe that it was already widespread among the Illyrians or Dacians (and yet showing such hollow structure), although I see this single I2a founder as a POSSIBLE result of some subset of Dacian, Celtic or Germanic influence on proto-Slavic culture. Alternatively, it could've been an earlier intruder or even an autochtonous neolithic farmer/ hunter-gatherer assimilated by Corded Ware people, for example.

Is Finno-Ugric origin of that I2a founder also possible, in your opinion?: :)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235763-Was-I2a-Din-originally-Finno-Ugric-(not-Slavic)&p=4967146&viewfull=1#post4967146

[Artek]

Is Finno-Ugric origin of that I2a founder also possible, in your opinion?: :)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235763-Was-I2a-Din-originally-Finno-Ugric-(not-Slavic)&p=4967146&viewfull=1#post4967146

Highly unlikely. I2-Din is characteristic to all Slavic (and other, mostly Balkan) people but to almost none of Finno-Ugric groups unless we take some obvious Slavic influence into consideration. Also, no traces of clades similar to I2-Din are found among any of Finno-Ugric groups, whereas clade parallel to I2-Din is found in France.

Of course, one cannot totally disprove a theory that I2-Din was initally a very, very rare (near extinct) lineage among a group of Finno-Ugric people that quickly got included into formation of proto-Slavic community. But even in such case, it's explosion and spread is still firmly connected with Slavic speakers. Also the question would be - who originally carried it before it took a part in some Finno-Ugric group.

I prefer to speak of probability. It's less probable that was of Finno-Ugric origin.

[Ülev]

##324, 325.

unban R1ethel