Russians and Finns admixture?

[TheForeigner]

How much Mongoloid admixture do Russians, Finns and Lapps have? This isn't meant as a slight or a trolling of these peoples. I am just curious and of course these peoples are still Europid.

[Harkonnen]

Eastern Eurasian admixture in Finns must be over 30% because French were modelled as 23% East Eurasian in a recent paper published just few days ago.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?200837-A-working-model-of-the-deep-relationships-of-diverse-modern-human-genetic-lineages-outside-of-Africa


While we did not carefully model present-day Europeans in our main admixture graph, we did build an extended graph with French added (25 individuals). A good fit was obtained with four ancestry components, related to western (K14), northern (near the base of the MA1 lineage), and eastern (specified as the same source as for MA1) Eurasians, plus Basal Eurasian (specified without Neanderthal introgression (Lazaridis et al., 2016)). The inferred proportions were 27.7%, 34.9%, 23.2%, and 14.2%, respectively, with essentially no change in the list of residuals

So to recap French are:

27.7% Kostenki (West Eurasian)
34.9% MA1 (North Eurasian)
23.2% Eastern Eurasian
14.2% Basal Eurasian

[Harkonnen]

How much Mongoloid admixture do Russians, Finns and Lapps have? This isn't meant as a slight or a trolling of these peoples. I am just curious and of course these peoples are still Europid.

lol like a gypsy like you would have any say on who is Europid or not :D

[Harkonnen]

It's game over gypsies, the truth is out :D

[TheForeigner]

I did not expect bullshit from a negrotroll.

[Harkonnen]

I did not expect bullshit from a negrotroll.

It's not bullshit. It's the latest top notch science paper from top notch scientist. Until the next paper says something completely different, the chips are on my hands. I won. I expect that this may take some to sink in the dumbo audience here, but believe me, I won.

[TheForeigner]

bump

[JanPulja]

How much Mongoloid admixture do Russians, Finns and Lapps have? This isn't meant as a slight or a trolling of these peoples. I am just curious and of course these peoples are still Europid.

People really should stop calling a subjectively chosen abstract component "admixture". It confuses the noobs. Are u sure you understand how it works, Foreigner?

[XenophobicPrussian]

Finns have on average 6.2% Mongoloid(around 2.5% for SW Finns). Northern Russians have 5% Mongoloid, the majority of ethnic Russians(Smolensk/Ukrainian border Russians) have 1-1.5% Mongoloid.

If you want to count ANE, ANE will be around 60/40 WHG/Amerindian, so ethnic Russians will have around 10% Amerindian while Finns will have around 8%(this is of course seperate from the Mongoloid admixture).

Lapps(I'm assuming you meant Samis?) have 20% Mongoloid admixture and around 12% Amerindian.

If you're wondering how that compares to other ethnicites, Swedes would have around 5-6% Amerindian and the SE English would have around 3%, no Mongoloid.

[Harkonnen]

Finns have on average 6.2% Mongoloid(around 2.5% for SW Finns). Northern Russians have 5% Mongoloid, the majority of ethnic Russians(Smolensk/Ukrainian border Russians) have 1-1.5% Mongoloid.

If you want to count ANE, ANE will be around 60/40 WHG/Amerindian, so ethnic Russians will have around 10% Amerindian while Finns will have around 8%(this is of course seperate from the Mongoloid admixture).

Lapps(I'm assuming you meant Samis?) have 20% Mongoloid admixture and around 12% Amerindian.

If you're wondering how that compares to other ethnicites, Swedes would have around 5-6% Amerindian and the SE English would have around 3%, no Mongoloid.

You fucking Polak dumbo read the study I linked. If French have over 20% Mongoloid, I'd estimate Finns to have at least 30%.

[XenophobicPrussian]

You fucking Polak dumbo read the study I linked. If French have over 20% Mongoloid, I'd estimate Finns to have at least 30%.
That's using paleolithic genomes(who were still going through massive genetic drift, Kostenki would plot between populations as he would around 50% WHG, 25% Oceanian, the original OOA humans, 25% Mongoloid/Basal Eurasian/Natufian). Basing it on Kostenki would show Europeans as significant East Eurasian because East Eurasian is still closer to WHG/modern Europeans than Oceanians or whatever other archaic crap paleolithic humans had.

You use population outliers on PCA plots to determine a starting point as a component. That's why WHG is used rather than paleolithic Europeans.

The population outliers of the world are WHGs, East Eurasians/Mongoloids(or if you want to split that up, Oroqen or maybe Nganasan and Ami/Atayal), Natufians/Bedouins(although even they have WHG affinity so some people use the Basal Eurasian component which takes out the WHG from them), Oceanians, SSA(Yoruba, Pygmies, San, every other African is mixed) and Amerindians. It's useless basing populations based on anything other than these.

[Harkonnen]

Read the study Polaks!

[TheForeigner]

Finns have on average 6.2% Mongoloid(around 2.5% for SW Finns). Northern Russians have 5% Mongoloid, the majority of ethnic Russians(Smolensk/Ukrainian border Russians) have 1-1.5% Mongoloid.

If you want to count ANE, ANE will be around 60/40 WHG/Amerindian, so ethnic Russians will have around 10% Amerindian while Finns will have around 8%(this is of course seperate from the Mongoloid admixture).

Lapps(I'm assuming you meant Samis?) have 20% Mongoloid admixture and around 12% Amerindian.

If you're wondering how that compares to other ethnicites, Swedes would have around 5-6% Amerindian and the SE English would have around 3%, no Mongoloid.

I thought ANE was a genetic component common to Europeans and Amerindians and that that makes Amerindians part West Eurasian. And 20% is the highest I've heard in Mongoloid admixture for Lapps.

[Pigling]

About 5-10% according to this map.
http://i42.tinypic.com/1076gkx.jpg

[Harkonnen]

That's using paleolithic genomes(who were still going through massive genetic drift, Kostenki would plot between populations as he would around 50% WHG, 25% Oceanian, the original OOA humans, 25% Mongoloid/Basal Eurasian/Natufian). Basing it on Kostenki would show Europeans as significant East Eurasian because East Eurasian is still closer to WHG/modern Europeans than Oceanians or whatever other archaic crap paleolithic humans had.

You use population outliers to determine a starting point as a component. That's why WHG is used rather than paleolithic Europeans.

Read the study Polak idiot. Kostenki was previously modeled as part Basal Eurasian NOT OCEANIAN OR ANY OF THAT SHIT you are basing that propably on some retarded admix results which are known for some time to be utter crap especially when you use it to old specimens like Kostenki.

In this latest study they found that a model which models Kostenki as West Eurasian and WHG and ANE mixed with East Eurasian works better.

[Harkonnen]

About 5-10% according to this map.
http://i42.tinypic.com/1076gkx.jpg

Outdated crap.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I thought ANE was a genetic component common to Europeans and Amerindians and that that makes Amerindians part West Eurasian. And 20% is the highest I've heard in Mongoloid admixture for Lapps.
No, this is a bullshit lie spread by Davidski that he recently showed himself was wrong.

Amerindians are 100% a population outlier and are not a mix of other populations. They share a recent ancestor with Mongoloids, that's it. It is indeed ANE who is the mix, not Amerindians.

ANE is inbetween Amerindians and Europeans/WHGs on PCA plots, not Amerindian inbetween. The only ANE samples we have of course had Amerindian Y-DNA haplogroups(Q/R family) and WHG mtDNA haplogroups.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Read the study Polak idiot. Kostenki was previously modeled as part Basal Eurasian NOT OCEANIAN OR ANY OF THAT SHIT you are basing that propably on some retarded admix results which are known for some time to be utter crap especially when you use it to old specimens like Kostenki.

In this latest study they found that a model which models Kostenki as West Eurasian and WHG and ANE mixed with East Eurasian works better.
Wrong. Your study is useless.

Show me a study where they model Kostenki that INCLUDES Oceanian/Onge and he shows up with none of it.

Kostenki is not a population outlier. He is not a purebred. He is an unevolved mutt.

[Harkonnen]

Wrong. Your study is useless.

Show me a study where they model Kostenki that INCLUDES Oceanian/Onge and he shows up with none of it.

Kostenki is not a population outlier. He is not a purebred. He is an unevolved mutt.

Where the fuck did you get the idea Kostenki is part Onge. Show me the results. Is it some admixture generated crap? I've seen you post that crap before. Quite frankly you are a utter idiot.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Where the fuck did you get the idea Kostenki is part Onge. Show me the results. Is it some admixture generated crap? I've seen you post that crap before. Quite frankly you are a utter idiot.
So humans left Africa 60k years ago as full Caucasoids/Mongoloids, or what?

[Norka]

Which calc are we talking about here? I'm a person of Finno-Turkic origin and on 23andme only have 1.7% East Asian on gedmatch calcs and other sites I get 10-15% East Asian mostly Siberian. Slavic Russians who are closer to Europeans who have nothing to do with us, we are closer to our brother Finns and Estonians.

[Petroskoijari]

How many times have we had a thread like this? My god.

[Norka]

How many times have we had a thread like this? My god.

I don't like your avatar. What are you trying to say with it? That Finns suck Germanic dick?

[Petroskoijari]

I don't like your avatar. What are you trying to say with it? That Finns suck Germanic dick?
I don't care what you think of it.

[Harkonnen]

So humans left Africa 60k years ago as full Caucasoids/Mongoloids, or what?

Ust-Ishim is modelled very narrowly in the same clade with Kostenki. This means the split between western and eastern lineages must have happened very close to Ust Ishim times. Perhaps couple of thousand years earlier. Ust-Ishim is 45 000 years old, Kostenki 35 000


After the divergence of Dinka from non-Africans, the next split point on the modern human lineage in our model is that between the major eastern and western clades (the node labeled “Non-African”—although we note that the split point of Basal Eurasian would be deeper.) This split is soon followed on the western Eurasian branch by the split between K14 and Ust’-Ishim (i.e., their respective modern-human ancestry components). The original Ust’-Ishim analysis (Fu et al., 2014) inferred a near-trifurcation at this point, and we wished to test whether K14 (and other western Eurasians) and Ust’-Ishim form a statistically supported clade. In fact, while the best-fitting position for Ust’-Ishim is on the western lineage (0.6 shared drift), the inferred 95% confidence interval for this point overlaps the eastern/western split (standard error 0.4 for the Ust’-Ishim split position), so that we cannot confidently resolve the branching order. We therefore continue to regard this cluster as approximately a trifurcation; while we show Ust’Ishim at its best-fitting split point in Figure 1, we color-code it as a basal non-African rather than a member of the western clade.



http://i64.tinypic.com/npigew.jpg

^note that the picture is missing the so called Basal Eurasian due simplicity reasons.

[Harkonnen]

Which calc are we talking about here? I'm a person of Finno-Turkic origin and on 23andme only have 1.7% East Asian on gedmatch calcs and other sites I get 10-15% East Asian mostly Siberian.

In reality your Mongoloid admixture is around 40%

[Petroskoijari]

What exactly constitutes as Mongolian; East Asian, Siberian, what? This term gets thrown around a lot without any definition.

[Harkonnen]

What exactly constitutes as Mongolian; East Asian, Siberian, what? This term gets thrown around a lot without any definition.

Can you just take a hike. You are obviously not the brightest lightbulb in the bucket.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Which calc are we talking about here? I'm a person of Finno-Turkic origin and on 23andme only have 1.7% East Asian on gedmatch calcs and other sites I get 10-15% East Asian mostly Siberian. Slavic Russians who are closer to Europeans who have nothing to do with us, we are closer to our brother Finns and Estonians.
23andme is useless. Basically, someone is "Finnish" or "southern European", which are based on an actual Finnish or southern European person, not components or ancient populations, if someone is 100% Finnish they will get 100% Finnish, it counts the Mongoloid in the actual Finnish sample as native.

If you're Finnish and you show East Asian admixture on 23andme that's actually probably how much more East Asian admixture you have than the average Finn.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Ust-Ishim is modelled very narrowly in the same clade with Kostenki. This means the split between western and eastern lineages must have happened very close to Ust Ishim times. Perhaps couple of thousand years earlier. Ust-Ishim is 45 000 years old, Kostenki 35 000



http://i64.tinypic.com/npigew.jpg

^note that the picture is missing the so called Basal Eurasian due simplicity reasons.
So yes, you are claiming full Eurasians(Europid, Basal Eurasian or Mongoloid) left Africa in their full forms or managed to evolve from Africans/Oceanians or proto-Oceanians into a fully diverged population in a short period of time.

Get real.

In reality, it's only 14k BC when we see the first fully diverged human with no archaic human admixture, and we see less and less archaic human(both according to admixture and PCA plots) in 30k BC samples, 20k BC samples, etc. I hope you know the older humans were the more Neanderthal/Denisovan admixture they also had. Humans have less of it now, just like we have less Oceanian or proto-Oceanian(I've been saying Oceanian this whole time but the most proper example of archaic human is indeed Onge, your own chart shows that), because we genetically drifted away from it.

[Petroskoijari]

Can you just take a hike. You are obviously not the brightest lightbulb in the bucket.
Coming from a neo-pagan retard.

[Norka]

I don't care what you think of it.

Wait sorry how does that Germanic dick in your mouth and ass feel? Because that is fucked up you fucking closet homo.

[Petroskoijari]

Wait sorry how does that Germanic dick in your mouth and ass feel? Because that is fucked up you fucking closet homo.
Triggered? I wish more of you Tatar fucks would get cremated and used as a fertilizer.

[Norka]

In reality your Mongoloid admixture is around 40%

How so? And what do you think of it?

[Norka]

Triggered? I wish more of you Tatar fucks would get cremated and used as a fertilizer.

Hahaha when your mother kisses you do you taste my Tatar spunk on her lips? :) Or is it tasteless?

[Petroskoijari]

Hahaha when your mother kisses you do you taste my Tatar spunk on her lips? :)
It must be nice to be an inbred degenerate who gets it in the ass from Russians.

[Norka]

It must be nice to be an inbred degenerate who gets it in the ass from Russians.

Nah Russians got it from me for a thousand years, same as your sweet mama who I ram right where it counts :) You didn't answer my question gay boy.

[Harkonnen]

Coming from a neo-pagan retard.

And what exactly has been your contribution besides asking silly questions?

[Norka]

And what exactly has been your contribution besides asking silly questions?

His contribution to the world is satisfying gay Germans and Niggas.

[Petroskoijari]

And what exactly has been your contribution besides asking silly questions?
You think you're above others on this forum when you post threads about IQ and motorsports? How intellectual.

[Petroskoijari]

And what exactly has been your contribution besides asking silly questions?
You think you're above others on this forum when you post threads about IQ and motorsports? How intellectual.

[crazyladybutterfly]

quality thread

[XenophobicPrussian]

quality thread
It was fine until the Tatar guy decided to have an issue with a Finnish guy identifying with Germanics even though Finnish European admixture(so not counting their Mongoloid) is closer to Germanics than Russians or Finno-Ugrians, save for East Finns.

[Harkonnen]

It was fine until the Tatar guy decided to have an issue with a Finnish guy identifying with Germanics even though Finnish European admixture(so not counting their Mongoloid) is closer to Germanics than Russians or Finno-Ugrians, save for East Finns.

Germanics and Slavs are closer to each other than either is to Finns, especially East Finns. How can this still be so hard to comprehend: West Finns are closer to Russians too.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2lvy34g.jpg

[Berahthraban]

Finns have on average 6.2% Mongoloid(around 2.5% for SW Finns). Northern Russians have 5% Mongoloid, the majority of ethnic Russians(Smolensk/Ukrainian border Russians) have 1-1.5% Mongoloid.

If you want to count ANE, ANE will be around 60/40 WHG/Amerindian, so ethnic Russians will have around 10% Amerindian while Finns will have around 8%(this is of course seperate from the Mongoloid admixture).

Lapps(I'm assuming you meant Samis?) have 20% Mongoloid admixture and around 12% Amerindian.

If you're wondering how that compares to other ethnicites, Swedes would have around 5-6% Amerindian and the SE English would have around 3%, no Mongoloid.

Referring to ANE as Amerindian makes no sense. ANE consists of 2/3 WHG and 1/3 broadly EEA. Or am I wrong?

[Peterski]

So humans left Africa 60k years ago as full Caucasoids/Mongoloids, or what?

Have you seen my recent thread about this?:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?200806-Chronology-of-divergence-of-human-races

[Harkonnen]

Have you seen my recent thread about this?:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?200806-Chronology-of-divergence-of-human-races

Your thread is total Polish bollocks like usual. Modern races are much younger.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Germanics and Slavs are closer to each other than either is to Finns, especially East Finns. How can this still be so hard to comprehend: West Finns are closer to Russians too.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2lvy34g.jpg
You need to stop posting your bullshit. What in the fuck even is that picture? That's including the Mongoloid admixture. If you take that out, Finns are inbetween Swedes and Estonians, SW Finns even closer to Swedes.

Use a PCA plot without any Mongoloids or Mongoloid admixed Finno-Ugrics like Mari/Sami and Finns show up inbetween Balto-Slavs and Germanics.

http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png

http://s018.radikal.ru/i509/1206/ff/19d3034cc1f0.png

That picture you posted is useless as it shows Estonians, Latvians, Hungarians in weird places. Your picture doesn't even show what you claimed, but yes, on world PCA plots, Finns will appear near Russians, but it's a different thing(Mongoloid) that is shifting them that east(Amerindians for Russians).

Notice in this admixture plot how SW Finns are so westernly because they have less Mongoloid. It is solely the Mongoloid pushing non-west Finns that east, not any affinity to Russians, who only have 1-1.5% Mongoloid. Phenotypically Finns are also closer to Scandos than Russians.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/egtlch.jpg

[Harkonnen]

Referring to ANE as Amerindian makes no sense. ANE consists of 2/3 WHG and 1/3 broadly EEA. Or am I wrong?

Amerindians have less ANE ancestry in this new study. 73% East Eurasian


We included Suru´ı, from Brazil, a Native American population without recent European admixture. As previously demonstrated for Native Americans generally (Raghavan et al., 2014), we found that they fit well in the model as a mixture of components related to East Asians (73%) and MA1 (27%). This proportion of western Eurasian ancestry is lower than previously inferred (∼40% in Raghavan et al. (2014)), which may be because we are separately modeling East Asian-related gene flow into MA1. It has also been shown that Suru´ı harbor a few percent ancestry from a “Population Y” related to Onge and Australasians (Skoglund et al., 2015). In the context of our model, with only one Native American population present, this admixture should only have a minor effect, although we do see hints of such a signal, as mentioned above.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Referring to ANE as Amerindian makes no sense. ANE consists of 2/3 WHG and 1/3 broadly EEA. Or am I wrong?
It makes perfect sense. ANE fossils were described specifically as Amerindian like. ANE had Amerindian R/Q, not Mongoloid N/O. Amerindians were likely spread out much further across Siberia before they travelled across the Bering straight, and the oldest Amerindian sample we have(Anzick-1) is already a full blooded Amerindian, far from the East Asian cluster.

Technically ANE can be modelled as 2/3 WHG and 1/3 EEA, but Amerindian is a closer match than EEA. Did you think Amerindian was inbetween EEA and ANE/WHG? It isn't, it's an outlier, Eurogenes recently had an article about this(that ANE was Mongoloid admixed, not that ANE was a source of admixture in Mongoloids).

Notice how MA-1 is inbetween Amerindians and Europeans.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQRlBQWnJFMk5zbzA/edit

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QJs5tV0H3t4/VIwY7BlNxyI/AAAAAAAAByQ/LakjgsBYRNc/s1600/2dkweaw.jpg

[XenophobicPrussian]

Amerindians have less ANE ancestry in this new study. 73% East Eurasian
Ffs, Amerindians have 0% ANE. ANE has Amerindian. Amerindians are an outlier, they are not inbetween Europeans and East Asians. They are East Eurasian+genetic drift or East Eurasian + something completely different we haven't discovered and isn't present in other humans. They can show up ANE on admixture because ANE makes up/substitutes(because it's the closest other component being considered) for the missing part but they will not show up inbetween East Asians and ANE on a PCA plot.

[Norka]

It was fine until the Tatar guy decided to have an issue with a Finnish guy identifying with Germanics even though Finnish European admixture(so not counting their Mongoloid) is closer to Germanics than Russians or Finno-Ugrians, save for East Finns.

Fuck, gay boy you must be a pure retard.

[Peterski]

http://oi67.tinypic.com/egtlch.jpg

I added Czechs to this some time ago (based on a sample of 15 Czechs):

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

I also sent these 15 Czech results to Davidski, maybe he will add "Czech".

[Harkonnen]

Ffs, Amerindians have 0% ANE. ANE has Amerindian. Amerindians are an outlier, they are not inbetween Europeans and East Asians. They are East Eurasian+genetic drift or East Eurasian + something completely different we haven't discovered and isn't present in other humans. They can show up ANE on admixture because ANE makes up/substitutes(because it's the closest other component being considered) for the missing part but they will not show up inbetween East Asians and ANE on a PCA plot.

No idiot. They appear on some plots farther away from Euros than East Asian do only because drift. That is all.

[Harkonnen]

It makes perfect sense. ANE fossils were described specifically as Amerindian like. ANE had Amerindian R/Q, not Mongoloid N/O. Amerindians were likely spread out much further across Siberia before they travelled across the Bering straight, and the oldest Amerindian sample we have(Anzick-1) is already a full blooded Amerindian, far from the East Asian cluster.

Technically ANE can be modelled as 2/3 WHG and 1/3 EEA, but Amerindian is a closer match than EEA. Did you think Amerindian was inbetween EEA and ANE/WHG? It isn't, it's an outlier, Eurogenes recently had an article about this(that ANE was Mongoloid admixed, not that ANE was a source of admixture in Mongoloids).

Notice how MA-1 is inbetween Amerindians and Europeans.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQRlBQWnJFMk5zbzA/edit

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QJs5tV0H3t4/VIwY7BlNxyI/AAAAAAAAByQ/LakjgsBYRNc/s1600/2dkweaw.jpg

NO is not Mongoloid per the study I posted as the earliest NOs: Oase and Ust-Ishim were in the same clade with Kostenki. O and N are West Eurasian admix in East Eurasians.

[RN97]

I added Czechs to this some time ago (based on a sample of 15 Czechs):

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

I also sent these 15 Czech results to Davidski, maybe he will add "Czech".

That's a good map bro. Where would I cluster? In between Romania and Norway is Austria, but I guess that's not how it works, or?
Also why are Moldavians so much more north?

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

I added Czechs to this some time ago (based on a sample of 15 Czechs):

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

I also sent these 15 Czech results to Davidski, maybe he will add "Czech".

I keep seeing that Eurogenes K15 map, and every time it "triggers" me a bit. Is there a reason why the placement of the original components (North Sea, Baltic, etc.) doesn't even try to roughly follow the fst distances between themselves?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQS3VvTUYyYXd0akk/edit

For example, Atlantic and North Sea have only a 0.015 fst difference between themselves so they should be decently close, but then North Sea and Baltic have a 0.02 fst distance (which is only 0.005 higher) and yet Baltic is at 3 times the distance from North Sea than Atlantic is. Whoever placed the initial components on the map completely disregarded fst distances...

The biggest one by far is the distance between west_med and east_med. West_med isn't really that close to anything, but the first one that appears is east_med at 0.027, right before Atlantic at 0.028. While the distance from west_med to Atlantic on the map isn't a problem, the distance from west med to east med is gigantic, like 3 times the distance between west med and Atlantic when the distance should be roughly the same, making Italians and Balkans go on a slippery slope and appear a lot closer to MENAs then they actually are. The component that should indeed be very far from Europe is Red_Sea (aka Middle Eastern on the FST table), which has a very big fst distance of around 0.06 to most European components, and still has a very big 0.038 distance to East_Med, and yet on the map East_Med and Red_Sea are super close, practically at the same distance that North Sea and Atlantic are.

Anyway, this just to say that IMO that map isn't really valid. Whoever made it decided to separate the components based on what he thought was European vs Middle Eastern (he saw west_med, Atlantic and North Sea as European and therefore very close together, and East_med and Red_Sea as more Middle_Eastern and therefore he put them very far from his "European" components and close together in order to divide Europeans and Middle Easterns. Problem is that East_med is kinda in the middle and certainly closer to west_med than to Red Sea) when he should have based it on the fst distances. Everyone is a bit off on the map, but the Europeans that seem more wrongly placed are the ones that have more East_Med, aka Italians and Greeks (and Jews too, although those will certainly have high Red Sea too). They should be quite a bit more north on the map.

Edit: Didn't mention even worse cases like Amerindian that should have around 6 times the distance between it and East_Euro as East_Euro has with Baltic, and on the map they have the same distance. Anyway, you get the point.

[Harkonnen]

You need to stop posting your bullshit. What in the fuck even is that picture?

It is from upcoming Finnish study. Very accurate.


Notice in this admixture plot how SW Finns are so westernly because they have less Mongoloid. It is solely the Mongoloid pushing non-west Finns that east, not any affinity to Russians, who only have 1-1.5% Mongoloid. Phenotypically Finns are also closer to Scandos than Russians.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/egtlch.jpg

That plot is carbage. As far as I understood it is based on admixture components. Admixture components are formed very arbitarily. You could just as well make a plot on one of the MDLP admixture runs where there is a Finnish component and Finns would appear insanely dinstant from everyone else. The result would make just as much sense than the one you posted.

[Grishnack]

I added Czechs to this some time ago (based on a sample of 15 Czechs):

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

http://i.imgur.com/fPA6UW5.png

I also sent these 15 Czech results to Davidski, maybe he will add "Czech".

Why do Serbians plot northern than Romanians?

[Berahthraban]

It makes perfect sense. ANE fossils were described specifically as Amerindian like. ANE had Amerindian R/Q, not Mongoloid N/O. Amerindians were likely spread out much further across Siberia before they travelled across the Bering straight, and the oldest Amerindian sample we have(Anzick-1) is already a full blooded Amerindian, far from the East Asian cluster.

Technically ANE can be modelled as 2/3 WHG and 1/3 EEA, but Amerindian is a closer match than EEA. Did you think Amerindian was inbetween EEA and ANE/WHG? It isn't, it's an outlier, Eurogenes recently had an article about this(that ANE was Mongoloid admixed, not that ANE was a source of admixture in Mongoloids).

Notice how MA-1 is inbetween Amerindians and Europeans.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQRlBQWnJFMk5zbzA/edit

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QJs5tV0H3t4/VIwY7BlNxyI/AAAAAAAAByQ/LakjgsBYRNc/s1600/2dkweaw.jpg

I don't quite get your reasoning. I think it makes perfect that MA-1 is in between Amerindians and Europeans with "my" line of thinking. Europeans being a hell of a lot WHG (also through our ANF, ANE, CHG and EHG), plus extra EEA from their ANE (and CHG). In the middle, MA-1 is 2/3 WHG and 1/3 EEA. And lastly, let's say Amerindians are like 2/3 EEA + 1/3 ANE (which consists of 2/3 WHG and 1/3 EEA).

Why should we call ANE Amerindian, when they aren't the same? The latter obviously being less West Euroasian. And also before them even entering the continent. We had ANE in us already pre-IE as you know. I'm open for anything that makes sense though, so maybe I'm just not getting it.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I don't quite get your reasoning. I think it makes perfect that MA-1 is in between Amerindians and Europeans with "my" line of thinking. Europeans being a hell of a lot WHG (also through our ANF, ANE, CHG and EHG), plus extra EEA from their ANE (and CHG). In the middle, MA-1 is 2/3 WHG and 1/3 EEA. And lastly, let's say Amerindians are like 2/3 EEA + 1/3 ANE (which consists of 2/3 WHG and 1/3 EEA).

Why should we call ANE Amerindian, when they aren't the same? The latter obviously being less West Euroasian. And also before them even entering the continent. We had ANE in us already pre-IE as you know. I'm open for anything that makes sense though, so maybe I'm just not getting it.
How can Amerindians be 2/3 EEA + 1/3 ANE if Amerindians aren't right inbetween ANE and East Asians on PCA plots? Again, they're an outgroup, which means they have no admixture from any other known human groups.

The evidence for my point is PCA plots(also, again, there's a Eurogenes article that states MA-1 was admixed, not a source of admixture). I didn't only mean they're between Europeans and Amerindians, I meant they're between WHG and Amerindians.

Amerindian admixture was known to be in Europe(brought in with ANE) since 2013. http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/06/amerindian-like-admixture-in-northern.html Other bloggers like Genetiker and Davidski denied it and proposed Amerindians had European admixture instead, probably because they're biased and solely based on Amerindians could be modeled as part ANE. Europeans can be modeled as 98% SSA and 2% Neanderthal if you're missing proper stuff to compare them with..

There's a reason they say Amerindian and not Mongoloid/EEA. On admixture runs, you see Amerindian pop in Mal'ta, Afontova Gora, both EHGs, and even SHGs, with 0% Mongoloid popping up. I'll also bring up the Amerindian Q/R(Q/R are brother y-dna haplogroups and the closest to eachother if you didn't know, like I/J) haplogroups again(Mal'ta/Afontova Gora both had R, there are EHGs with Q, as opposed to Mongoloid O/N, all have WHG mtDNA).

As long as you realize ANE is indeed 1/3 not WHG we're basically on the same page(although having it be Amerindian over EEA has certain implications), but yes, it is Amerindian over Mongoloid. Look at the first PCA link I gave in the last post again, how can Amerindians be a mix of MA-1 and other Mongoloids given where they are?

More:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1471-2148-13-127-5.jpg

https://pjt111.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/li09pca.jpg

https://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/malta-child-map.png



Again, there's no way Amerindians can have any European/ANE/WHG admixture because none of them go towards Europeans or WHG from East Asians. At all. They go a completely different direction.

I can't find another PCA plot with all WHG, ANE, Amerindians in it, so we have to go with Europeans, but Europeans wouldn't be too far from WHG anyway on a world PCA. On those last 3, WHG would be positioned west, north-west, and west.

I'm not sure what you mean by we had ANE before IEs. Did you mean EHGs/SHGs? Sure. What's your point? We can't know if WHGs had any ANE because WHGs are the most outlier population we have in Europe, we'd have to find a population that would bring WHGs inbetween it and ANE to know forsure if they had it.

Also, I didn't say call ANE Amerindian. I said call it 2/3 WHG and 1/3 Amerindian. :p Hope that made it clearer.