Genetics of the Peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval Peloponnesean

[Pennywise]

Hellenas right now

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6qVYDvXAAAxSNS.jpg

[Laberia]

Let me quote you an greek scholar, who like many of your scholars was an expert in falsification of history, Tito Jochalas:

3. The Albanians in Central Greece and on Euboea

The new wave of Albanian migrants who arrived in Greece under Stefan Dushan, gradually began to become a burden for the many Albanians already living in Thessaly. It was thus natural for the new immigrants to continue their journey southwards. However, further progression in this direction brought them into conflict with the Catalans in the duchies of Athens and Neopatria (Ypatis).

An incident is described in a document from the archives in Palermo that is typical for the conflict between the Albanians and the Catalans. Just after 1360, Pere de Pou, the governor of Thebes, ordered Belinger Soler, the commander of Vitrinitsa (in the Gulf of Corinth), to provide him with a warship to counter a possible Albanian attack. The ship, that was sent on its way, was, however, taken over by the Albanians. The incident got complicated because Pere de Pou made Soler responsible for the loss of the boat and seized another ship to replace it. Soler complained to higher authority, and Frederick III ordered the ship to be returned to its owner. Here is the original document:

"Messina (?), 28 maig 1368
Pro Belingerio Soleri
Scriptum est eidem nobili vicario generali in haec verba:
Belingerius Soleri civis Thebarum fidelis presens in auditorio magne nostri curie querulose narravit quod dum Petrus de Puteo civis Thebarurn fidelis noster in dicti vicariatus officio presideret eidem exponenti tamquam castellano castri nostri Veteranisse mandavit expresse quod armaret seut armari faceret predictus exponens quamdam barcam nostre curie ibi sistentem pro habendis rumoribus hostium nostrorum Albanensium ad cujus execucionem mandati dictus exponens preter dilacionem aliquam dictam barcam armari fecit et dum pro dicta causa navigaret a dictis nostris hostibus Albanensibus dicta barca capta fuit. Cumque preffatus Petrus pretextu amissionis barce predicte quamdam aliam barcam propriam ipsius exponentis pro emenda ipsius barce abstulit ab eodem in ipsius preuiclicium atque dampnam..."

On the other hand, the Catalans hoped to profit from the presence of the Albanians, who were good warriors and particularly well known as horsemen. It seems to be the case that the Albanians were permitted to settle in the Duchy of Neopatria and in the northern part of the Duchy of Athens. From another document we learn that in 1350, the Catalans and the Albanians jointly attacked Pteleon, a Venetian military base at the entrance to the Gulf of Pagasitiko:

"1350 die XIV marcii
Capta:
Ad factum damnorum illatorum per illos de Compagna et Albanenses nostris fidelibus Phetelei, rescribatur eis (al bailo, cioè, e ai consiglieri di Eubea) quo gravamur et turbamus de damnis premissis…"

From an undated list of tribute paid to the Catalans, no doubt from the second half of the 14th century, we see that the Prince of “Mitra” retained 1500 Albanian horsemen:

"Item lo comte de Mitra qui pot haver be md. homens a cavall Albaneses. E aquest porta la bandera de la Vostra Reyal majestat perque es natural vesall…"

By this time, many Albanian had settled on the banks of the Sperchios River in the Duchy of Athens. This is evident from a document dated April 1381 in which the Pedro, the King of Aragon and Commander of the Catalan Duchy, addressed the “noble amat et feels nostres lo comte Mitra et tots altres Albaneses habitants en lo terme de la Allada…” (Allada being the region along the Sperchios River) and thanked them for their support in the defence of the County of Salona.

The unquestionable military prowess of the Albanians, who were probably the ones who assisted the Catalans against the Navarrese in Athens, made the Catalans realise that Albanian settlements on their territory amounted to a strengthening of defence, in particular since the region had been substantially depopulated by Navarrese attacks. For this reason, in 1382, Pedro, King of Aragon, granted immunity from taxes and duties for two years to any Albanians and Greeks wanting to settle in Attica. The text reads as follows:

"Lo rey d’Aragò:
Vescomte
a nos es estat suplicat que volgussem atorgar a tot Grech e Albanés qui vulla venir el lo ducat de Athenes que sia franch per ij anys, e encara que vullan atorgar la capella de sant Jordi, la qual es en La Vadia e es de la nostra cambra, a frare Francesc Comenge de sa vida…
Dada en 10 loch de Ulldecona la darrer dia de decembre del any de nostre Senyor m. ccc. lXXXij sots nostre segell secret,
Rex Petrus.
Fuit directa vicecomiti de Rochabertino"

There was probably further Albanian migration into Attica in 1388 when Nerio Acciaiuoli became ruler of the Duchy of Athens, and then under his son and successor Antonio. The source material is, however, not completely clear in this regard. The Venetians who owned Euboea were now afraid that the neighbouring duchy was becoming too strong with the influx of Albanians and decided to allow Albanians and others to settle on Euboea. Here, too, they were granted substantial privileges for two years on condition that they retained their horses and kept themselves in readiness to defend the island. This is a particularly significant document that we give here in full:

"1402, 20 aprilis
Quedam provisio facta, pro apopulando Insulam Nigropontis.
Sapientes ordinum
Quod, pro apopulando Insulam nostram Nigropontis, scribatur et mandetur Regimini nostro Nigropontis, quod debeat facere publiche proclamari, quod quilibet Albanensis, vel alia gens, qui non sint nostri subditi, qui cum equis volent venire et venient ad habitandum, a die captionis presentis partis, usque duos annos proxime sequentes, in Insulam Nigropontis, recipientur et sint erunt perpetuo liberi et absoluti ab omni angaria reali et personali, et sibi donabuntur de terrenis nostri comunis incultis, que tamen sint apta ad laborandum, cum conditione tamen; quod dicti tales Albanenses et alia gens equestris, teneantur tenere tot equos, quod homines capita familie erunt numero, nec possint recedere de dicta Insula sine licentia dicti Regiminis, sed teneantur et debeant, omni vice qua erit necesse, equitare et ire ad defensionem Insule, et offensionem quorumcumque volentium damnificare Insulam nostram predictam, et post mortem eorum, dicta terrena sint et esse debeant suorum heredum, qui habitarent super dicta Insula, cum obligatione, tenendi angariam predictam. Si vero non haberent heredes, dicta terrena revertantur in comune. Verum dictum Regimen Nigropontis, in facto dandi de dictis territoriis nostri comunis dictis Albanensibus, et aliis equestribus venientibus habitatum in Insula predicta, habeat libertatem dandi predictis illam quantitatem de terrenis nostri comunis, per modum predictum qui ipsi Regimini videbitur, secundum qualitatem personarum, et quantitatem ac conditionem familie illius qui venerit habitatum in Insula predicta."

We have already noted that Charles I Tocco, Prince of Cephalonia, expelled the Albanians when he conquered Aetolia in 1405 and Arta and Janina in 1411. His policy of driving all the Albanians out of Epirus and western Greece had the natural consequence of pushing them towards Attica and into the Peloponnese. Some of them, together with others already living in Attica and Boeotia, a total of some 300 families, accepted the favourable conditions the Venetian offered them to settle in Euboea.

"1425, 22 mai
Sapientes ordinum
Capta
Intellectis literis vestris, quibus nobis significastis, quod certa Capita albanensium ducaminis et diversorum locorum numero familiarum trecentarum intraverunt Insulam et illam volunt habitare, quorum adventus videtur summe placere Comunitati nostre Nigropontis, que etiam super inde nostro dominio scripsit. Intellecto etiam quantum eorum adventus affert comodum et utilitatem dicte Insule, Vobis respondemus cum nostris consiliis rogatorum et additionis, quod placet nobis, et sic Vobis mandamus, quatenus permittatis dictos albanenses et alios albanenses, qui vellent venire ad dictam Insulam, ipsam Insulam habitare, providendo et habendo tamen bonam advertentiam, quod non habitent fortilicia nostra, sed intrare et exire possint ad partem ad partem, et non habitare in eis pro securitate eorum locorum, sed extra persistant, et non inferant damnum subdictis nostris, dando etiam sibi sacramentum quod erunt fideles nostro dominio, in cunctis concernendibus comodum et honorem . Et super his ita provideatis, quod eorum adventus sit proficuus nostro dominio, et fidelibus nostris de inde. Verum quia per easdem literas scribitis Magnificum Antonium de Azaiolis conqueri de eorum adventu ad dictam Insulam. Volumus et Vobis mandamus, quod si amplius Vobis conqueretur debeatis facere excusationem cum illis melioribus verbis et modis, que Vobis videbuntur."

However, the Duke of Athens, Antonio Acciaiuoli, soon realised that the loss of his Albanian subjects amounted to a decrease in his military strength and protested, through his representative in Euboea, P. Melzola, about the measures taken by the military authorities in Euboea to settle the inhabitants of his duchy there without his permission. The Venetians initially endeavoured to solve the conflict by peaceful means, as we can see from the following document:

"1425, die VI Novembris
… Ad aliam autem requisitionem quam facit super facto illarum familiarum Albanensium qui venerunt habitatum super insula nostra Nigropontis respondemus quod non habemus a rectoribus nostris Nigropontis informationem necessariam super hoc, et propterea eis scribemus pro habenda debita informatione super predictis, qua habita, respondemus per illum modum qui erit conveniens et honestus…"

and allowed those of the 300 families who wished to do so, to return to the Duchy of Athens.

"1426, 21 Ianuarii
Quod scribatur Regimini nostro Nigropontis in hac forma, videlicet:
… Insuper recepimus alias literas vestri ser Tadei alterius consiliarii, per quas nobis significastis habuisse contrariam opinionem in non permittendo dictos Albanenses redire ad loca ipsius domini Antonii, … nolentes amplius hanc rem in longum ducere, … qui volent abinde recedere, et ire ad loca dicti domini Antonii, licentiam perbeatis ad ea loca se conferendi. Alios autem Albanenses, quos dixistis utiles esse, et obedientes, qui de Levadie partibus et de Blachia priusquam suprascripti, illuc venerunt, sicut scripsistis, debeatur retinere in Insula, et sibi providere de aliquo territorio nostri comunis, aut de alia re, ut vivere et stare possint in ea Insula…"

4. The Albanians in the Peloponnese

Scholars have not yet established the exact date of the first migration of Albanians to the Peloponnese. It is generally accepted that, after their victory at the Battle of Acheloos in 1358 and favoured by the benevolence of Simeon Urosh, the Albanians settled in almost all of Epirus and Thessaly, but also in Aetolia-Acarnania. From Angelokastron, it was easy to cross over the Gulf of Patras to the Peloponnese, the coast of which was directly visible. It was quite probably Maria Cantacuzene who promoted the initial immigration of the Albanians when, repudiated by her husband, Nikephoros II, she sought refuge with her brother Manuel Cantacuzene. Spyridon Lambros stated that the first Albanian immigrants in the Peloponnese arrived at the time of Despot Manuel Cantacuzene (1348-1350). His hypothesis, though recently brought up again, was not generally accepted. Zakythinos held the view that Manuel Cantacuzene “semble avoir utilisé leurs services, mais on ne peut pas encore parler d’un colonisation.” There is no source material to support this.

From Byzantine reports, we know that 10,000 Albanians with their families settled in the Peloponnese during the reign of Theodor I Palaeologus (1380-1407), with his permission. The exact year of their arrival is not known. It probably took place in the final years of his reign as emperor, when Charles I Tocco began expelling the Albanians from his territory. We also do not know where the Albanians settled in the Peloponnese – the most probably regions would be Arcadia, Argos and Elis. In a decree (ορισμός) issued by Despot Thomas Palaeologus in September 1436 or 1451, we know that the men of: “κυρ Κόντου του Παλούμπη” (about 20, of whom most were Albanians) were exempt from the “φλωριατικόν” and that they “πάντη ελεύθεροι κ(αι) αναπαί(ητοι) ως απαξ ευργετηθέντες τούτο παρά της βασιλεί(ας) μου διά του ότι οφείλωσ(ιν) εκδουλεύειν της βασιλεί(ας) μου μετά αλόγων και αρμάτ(ων) αυτών ένθα οριζονται…”



19th century Albanian costumes in Greece.



19th century Albanian costumes
in Greece.

It is of interest to note that both Palaeologus and the Venetians provided uncultivated and depopulated land, and that Manuel Palaeologus soon stated that the newcomers were very good farmers. The rulers of Greece thus profited from the military and farming expertise of the Albanians.

The Venetians, who had shown great interest in Albanian immigration to Euboea, did not wish to remain behind and permitted the first settlement of Albanians on their land in the Peleponnese, in Metone and Corone, in 1401.

"140l, 16 februarii
… Quod scribatur et mandatur Castellanis locorum nostrorum Coroni et Methoni, quod debeant accipere ad soldum XII Albanenses, vel alios homines confidentes equestres, pro quolibet dictorum locorum, qui sint boni et sufficentes homines, et habeant bonos equos, et arma consueta haberi deinde per tales…"

and similarly in 1422:

"1422, die XXII Iulii
Quod scribatur nobili viro ser Delphino Venerio ambassiatori et provisori ad partes Amoree in hac forma:
… tamen ante conclusionem si videbitis fore expediens pro bona executione suprascriptorum et securitate paisii [Examilii] dare provisionem aliquibus ex dictis capitibus Albanensium…"

and again in 1425:

"1425, die XXII Maii
Quod scriptum fuit Castellanis Coroni et Mothoni super facto quorumdam Albanensium volentium venire habitare in locis nostris…
Recepimus literas vestras datas Methoni quarto Maii presentis, per quas nobis significastis requisitionem factam cum maxima instantia a duobus capitibus Albanensibus veniendi cum eorum comitivis sub umbra et in locis nosiris, quorum unus vult venire cum equis quinque millibus, et alterum cum equis quingentis cum illis homagiis et juramentis que viderentur nobis…"

The mass immigration of Albanians strengthened their position so that in 1453 they were able to rise against the Palaeologi.

5. The Albanians on the Islands of the Ionian and Aegean Seas

Due to their proximity to the coasts of Epirus and Aetolia-Acarnania, that had been flooded with Albanian migrants at the end of the 14th century, the Ionian isles seemed to be a perfect location for new Albanian settlements. It would seem that these islands attracted Albanians from the Peleponnese in particular, because it was there that the Venetians gradually lost their possessions, one after the other, to the Turks. We know that the Venetian Senate twice (1485 and 1488) called for a repopulation of the island of Zante and sent directives in this regard to the governors of Metone and Corone. It is also undisputed that, after losing their last possessions in the Peloponnese (1540), the Venetians settled Albanian families on the Ionian isles. It is also undisputed that the Albanians settled on the islands of the Aegean. For Hydra, Spetzes and Poros, it has been hypothesized that they were populated at the end of the 15th century by Albanians who were fleeing from the Turks. On Salamis, the Albanians are mentioned for the first time in 1674 and it would seem that they continued on to the neighbouring island of Anggistri somewhat later.


I can continue with many other authors, but i think this is enough to make clear the situation in your country, 5-6 century ago, because the author describe events in your country, not in Albania. Did you noticed this? He describe your country, ruled by lords arrived from half of the world, but not a single fucking greek noble and this foreign rulers invite an alien population, Albanians to settle in a empty Greece. Enjoy this lesson of history and continue to play together with your friends, with graphs, %, haplogroups, etc.

So, in few words, this pseudoscholars tested this people. Again are the Albanians who saved the ass to the greeks. This is funny.

[Sikeliot]

Dude, you are an American with partial Sicilian ancestry who hasn't ever even set foot on Sicily. You shouldn't be speaking for Sicilians and you shouldn't identify as one until you learn to speak Sicilian-Italian, live in, at the very least, a Sicilian American community and so on. You know nothing about the Sicilian experience and the Sicilian way of life because you don't even have second hand experience of it.


I'd learn Sicilian, because none of my great grandparents spoke Italian (I.e. Florentine), they spoke Sicilian.

[Tacitus]

These are just enclaves that survived and were recorded in recent history, like the Arbereshe of Italy. Majority have been absorbed and have no clue of their Albanian origins, in Greece and Italy for that matter. This is very obvious when one observes y chromosomes of Albanians.



Posted it for people to visually see why I think this studdy is bogus.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=arvanites+in+greece&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO1c3mrdHSAhVI7mMKHZN4CbwQ_AUIBygB&biw=640&bih=336#imgrc=3zm9rC-sFIxYtM:

With regards to [southern] Italy and Albania, looking at Y-DNA can be a bit tricky. An example: E-V13 is frequent among both regular southern Italians and Arbereshe. It can't be that all non-Arbereshe individuals in southern Italy are really Albanian by paternal descent.

Boattini et al 2011 measured the Arbereshe levels of E-V13 at 28% and in Albania proper (Tirana) at 23% while in various parts of southern Italy – Campania, Puglia, Calabria – the percentages for each region were 12%, 20%, and 16% respectively. And in Sarno et al 2014 the TMRCA of E-V13 measured in Sicily and parts of southern Italy (Basilicata, Puglia, and Calabria) was ~2300 YBP.

For the record, even though I haven't tested yet, I feel I'm likely to be E-V13 (my paternal line is from Calabria and my surname etymology is Greek). If indeed it is, who knows whether it's Greek or Albanian in origin.

[Sikeliot]

The study is just a declaration of the well known obviousness. Modern Greeks are a blend of Slavs, Vlachs, Levantines and Anatolians.

Not only did the study show Slavic ancestry was at maximum around 15%, but it found almost no Levantine affinity at all... I am unsure where you got that the study found the opposite...

[Sikeliot]

What I would have liked to see is Crete on the PCA plots. My guess is they'd have been overlapping with the latter end of the Peloponnesian cluster and the green Sicilian squares here. To me the study shows (some) Peloponnesians are more East Mediterranean than expected, not the reverse.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2wq67hg.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

With regards to [southern] Italy and Albania, looking at Y-DNA can be a bit tricky. An example: E-V13 is frequent among both regular southern Italians and Arbereshe. It can't be that all non-Arbereshe individuals in southern Italy are really Albanian by paternal descent.

Boattini et al 2011 measured the Arbereshe levels of E-V13 at 28% and in Albania proper (Tirana) at 23% while in various parts of southern Italy – Campania, Puglia, Calabria – the percentages for each region were 12%, 20%, and 16% respectively. And in Sarno et al 2014 the TMRCA of E-V13 measured in Sicily and parts of southern Italy (Basilicata, Puglia, and Calabria) was ~2300 YBP.

For the record, even though I haven't tested yet, I feel I'm likely to be E-V13 (my paternal line is from Calabria and my surname etymology is Greek). If indeed it is, who knows whether it's Greek or Albanian in origin.
You will be able to tell i think by looking at the specific cluster

[Pennywise]

Not only did the study show Slavic ancestry was at maximum around 15%, but it found almost no Levantine affinity at all... I am unsure where you got that the study found the opposite...

I was talking generally about all Greek populations including Cyprians. %15 is in Southern Greece. God knows what's the situation in Macedonia and Thrace.

[Sikeliot]

I was talking generally about all Greek populations including Cyprians. %15 is in Southern Greece. God knows what's the situation in Macedonia and Thrace.

Ok this I do agree with. The study basically implies Peloponnesians range from Tuscan-like to Sicilian (and in Paschou et al we see it is possible for rare Laconians, like a few Sicilians, to even plot as far out as the Dodecanese), so surely people in the northern 2/3 of Greece have more Slavic than Peloponnesians.

But for Levantine, I doubt you'd find it except in Cyprus.

[Voskos]

I bet even I have more Hellen ancestry than you.

yeah, thats why you plot with armenians and kurds

[Skerdilaid]

With regards to [southern] Italy and Albania, looking at Y-DNA can be a bit tricky. An example: E-V13 is frequent among both regular southern Italians and Arbereshe. It can't be that all non-Arbereshe individuals in southern Italy are really Albanian by paternal descent.

Boattini et al 2011 measured the Arbereshe levels of E-V13 at 28% and in Albania proper (Tirana) at 23% while in various parts of southern Italy – Campania, Puglia, Calabria – the percentages for each region were 12%, 20%, and 16% respectively. And in Sarno et al 2014 the TMRCA of E-V13 measured in Sicily and parts of southern Italy (Basilicata, Puglia, and Calabria) was ~2300 YBP.

For the record, even though I haven't tested yet, I feel I'm likely to be E-V13 (my paternal line is from Calabria and my surname etymology is Greek). If indeed it is, who knows whether it's Greek or Albanian in origin.

I want to point it out again that E-V13, J2b2 or R1b doesn’t’ necessarily point out Albanian ancestry among Greeks and Italians. E-V13 for example is enormous and found far wide within Europe, so we can’t generalize it, but by analyzing branches and subclusters one can distinguish the Albanian or Balkan influence among Italians. It might be tricky for example distinguishing ancient influence, but not when they are related to us within 1500 year period (I have three such Italians, similar number of Greeks and so do other Albanians belonging to different halpo’s and clusters). Now I admit some can be of Roman or Greek influence among us but majority isn’t.
Studies you pointed out are of low resolution (Boattini 12 Y-STR markers, Sarno 17 Y-STR markers) so it’s beyond me how they calculated that TMRCA.

[Voskos]

as usual we have the turkish-albanian team showing up to refute a study that has nothing to do with either of them.

i must say we're witnessing an interesting circlejerk between laberian aromun, manzikert grey wolf and J1 Kelmendasi

[Kelmendasi]

as usual we have the turkish-albanian team showing up to refute a study that has nothing to do with either of them.

i must say we're witnessing an interesting circlejerk between laberian aromun, manzikert grey wolf and J1 Kelmendasi
I really don't see why me being J1 is of importance, also since when did I refute these studies?

[Laberia]

as usual we have the turkish-albanian team showing up to refute a study that has nothing to do with either of them.

i must say we're witnessing an interesting circlejerk between laberian aromun, manzikert grey wolf and J1 Kelmendasi

I just made a simple question, what's the problem with Fallmerayer, because the intention of this study is to debunk this scholar. Nobody from you have an answer. The devil always is hiden in small details. Try to give an answer to this question and you will see that the entire study is a BS.

[Laberia]

Disgusting isn't it? Reminds me of this..

http://i.imgur.com/ynp8VnJ.jpg

This is a strong evidence of the existence of greeks as a nation.

[Voskos]

also since when did I refute these studies?

you keep saying that albanians and Greeks are different. yet at the same time you're agreeing with the ones claiming albanians replaced the Greeks of peloponnisos.

[Kelmendasi]

you keep saying that albanians and Greeks are different. yet at the same time you're agreeing with the ones claiming albanians replaced the Greeks of peloponnisos.
You really need to read what I said in more detail. I said that the similarities are exaggerated not that they aren't there. And as I said before why does me being J1 effect all this?

[Skerdilaid]

as usual we have the turkish-albanian team showing up to refute a study that has nothing to do with either of them.

i must say we're witnessing an interesting circlejerk between laberian aromun, manzikert grey wolf and J1 Kelmendasi

Alright bro, you want me to actually post examples? Search "Bavelas" at the V13 project who is from Peloponnese. He is matching a Gheg Albanian GD of 6 on 37 markers, kit Y9485 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=1024387137) (I can point out many more).

[Voskos]

You really need to read what I said in more detail. I said that the similarities are exaggerated not that they aren't there.

fair enough .

[Laberia]

you keep saying that albanians and Greeks are different. yet at the same time you're agreeing with the ones claiming albanians replaced the Greeks of peloponnisos.

Albanians didn't replaced greeks in Peloponnesus. Albanians gave life to an empty country. This is the reason why (if we accept the results of the study) there's a low concentration of slavs in Peloponnesus. Read the Ottoman defter of Peloponnesus and later try to discuss.

[Voskos]

Alright bro, you want me to actually post examples? Search "Bavelas" at the V13 project who is from Peloponnese. He is matching a Gheg Albanian GD of 6 on 37 markers, kit Y9485 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=1024387137) (I can point out many more).

sure but like I said, fallermayer's theory was about Greeks being wiped out by Slavs. Albanians are a totally different story

[Voskos]

Albanians didn't replaced greeks in Peloponnesus. Albanians gave life to an empty country. This is the reason why (if we accept the results of the study) there's a low concentration of slavs in Peloponnesus. Read the Ottoman defter of Peloponnesus and later try to discuss.

youre extremely ignorant. when albanians arrived there, the slavs had already been assimilated by the Greeks.

[Coolguy1]

Alright bro, you want me to actually post examples? Search "Bavelas" at the V13 project who is from Peloponnese. He is matching a Gheg Albanian GD of 6 on 37 markers, kit Y9485 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=1024387137) (I can point out many more).

Places with Arvanite populations in Peloponnisos like Corinth and Argolis share 95% of their ancestry with Italians, just like the Greek regions do. I heavily doubt Albanians share similar levels of ancestry with Italy. Y-dna may suggest some kind of genetic similarity between Arvanites and Albanians, but its only useful in mapping out migrations, not telling one's ancestry.

[Pennywise]

yeah, thats why you plot with armenians and kurds

Hellens of Anatolia weren't extinguished by Slavs and etc. you Vlacho-Slav boy. :coffee: And obviously you don't know shit about how DNA plots work.

[Laberia]

youre extremely ignorant. when albanians arrived there, the slavs had already been assimilated by the Greeks.

The study, this fake study, say another story, so the ignorant here is you.

[Laberia]

This eternal hate of neogreeks against Fallmerayer is a joke. But the most funny thing in this story is that nobody from the greeks can answer what Fallmerayer exactly said.

[Skerdilaid]

Y-dna may suggest some kind of genetic similarity between Arvanites and Albanians, but its only useful in mapping out migrations, not telling one's ancestry.

"Genetic similarity", what do you mean by it? It's pretty clear that they share a common ancestor, that perhaps lived 1000 years ago (rough estimate)

[Sikeliot]

Places with Arvanite populations in Peloponnisos like Corinth and Argolis share 95% of their ancestry with Italians, just like the Greek regions do. I heavily doubt Albanians share similar levels of ancestry with Italy. Y-dna may suggest some kind of genetic similarity between Arvanites and Albanians, but its only useful in mapping out migrations, not telling one's ancestry.

My guess is people in Epirus and northern Greece would have higher IBD sharing with Albania than with Italy, by far. But Peloponnese to Albania will be lower than it is to Italy, even if only by a small amount.

IBD sharing with Spain is in the 60s, so Albania could not possibly be lower than that.

[Voskos]

Hellens of Anatolia weren't extinguished by Slavs and etc.

cool, got proof to support that?

[Coolguy1]

"Genetic similarity", what do you mean by it? It's pretty clear that they share a common ancestor, that perhaps lived 1000 years ago (rough estimate)

That theres a connection between the paternal line. Thats only one ancestor out of thousands if you go back that far. I doubt modern Albanians share 95% of their ancestry with Italians like Peloponnesians, and Arvanite regions like Corinth and Argolis are no exception to this. The genes of the Arvanites have been largely mixed since the 700 years they've been in Greece, they likely share most of their ancestry with neighboring Greek populations, not with modern Albanians.

[Pennywise]

cool, got proof to support that?

I can't prove something didn't happen. It's like saying "prove that god doesn't exist".

[Sikeliot]

That theres a connection between the paternal line. Thats only one ancestor out of thousands if you go back that far. I doubt modern Albanians share 95% of their ancestry with Italians like Peloponnesians, and Arvanite regions like Corinth and Argolis are no exception to this. The genes of the Arvanites have been largely mixed since the 700 years they've been in Greece, they likely share most of their ancestry with neighboring Greek populations, not with modern Albanians.

I think it varies. If the study was IBD sharing on Epirote Greeks, they'd be closer to Albanian than to Sicilian and it wouldn't even be a contest.

[Skerdilaid]

That theres a connection between the paternal line. Thats only one ancestor out of thousands if you go back that far. I doubt modern Albanians share 95% of their ancestry with Italians like Peloponnesians, and Arvanite regions like Corinth and Argolis are no exception to this. The genes of the Arvanites have been largely mixed since the 700 years they've been in Greece, they likely share most of their ancestry with neighboring Greek populations, not with modern Albanians.

Sure, couldn't care less how they look autosomally actually. Do you think that's why they decided not to include ydna in this study then?

[Voskos]

I can't prove something didn't happen. It's like saying "prove that god doesn't exist".

you might be lucky enough and have some ancient greek in you if you're from the coast. see map from cavalli-sforza's work:


Hidden patterns in the geography of Europe shown by the first five principal components, explaining respectively 28%, 22%, 11%, 7%, and 5% of the total genetic variation for 95 classical polymorphisms (1, 13, 14).


The fourth is strongly reminiscent of Greek colonization in the first millennium B.C.

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Sure, couldn't care less how they look autosomally actually. Do you think that's why they decided not to include ydna in this study then?

The 95% figure is not autosomal, it is IBD sharing.

[Sikeliot]

you might be lucky enough and have some ancient greek in you if you're from the coast. see map from cavalli-sforza's work:

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpg

I wouldn't attribute this solely to ancient Greek influence (though partly it would be) but also to higher retention of Neolithic West Asian DNA.

Albania is actually included in component #4. Which means they should share A LOT of ancestry with Sicily, Crete, Peloponnese and so on.

[Pennywise]

you might be lucky enough and have some ancient greek in you if you're from the coast. see map from cavalli-sforza's work:




http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpg

Too bad you're not as lucky as me.

[Voskos]

Too bad you're not as lucky as me.

read the map, dumb iranid

[Coolguy1]

Sure, couldn't care less how they look autosomally actually. Do you think that's why they decided not to include ydna in this study then?

Im not talking about autosomal results, im talking about IBD sharing, which proves that Arvanite regions are really no different than neighboring Greek regions in terms of ancestry, they all share around 95% of their heritage with Italians.

im not sure why they didnt include y-dna in the study, I havent seen many that incorporate autosomal, y dna, and IBD in one so im not sure why you're making a big deal out of it. There have already been studies done on y dna in the Peloponnese, you're welcome to research them.

[Sikeliot]

Im not talking about autosomal results, im talking about IBD sharing, which proves that Arvanite regions are really no different than neighboring Greek regions in terms of ancestry, they all share around 95% of their heritage with Italians.

But until Albania is covered for IBD sharing you don't know for certain they wouldn't be the same way. Don't you personally score Albanian first on GEDmatch and plot near them on PCA plots, not with Sicilians?

[Herr Abubu]

I can't prove something didn't happen. It's like saying "prove that god doesn't exist".

Are you actually this stupid or are you just trolling? Of course you can prove that something didn't happen. And if you can't prove it, why would you claim it to be true? It's a completely different type of argument than the existence of God, too. One being a metaphysical argument, the other a historical argument.

[Skerdilaid]

The 95% figure is not autosomal, it is IBD sharing.

The segments you share are part of your autosomal profile (autosomal chromosomes, without the X and Y). IBD stands for Identical by descent.

[Coolguy1]

But until Albania is covered for IBD sharing you don't know for certain they wouldn't be the same way. Don't you personally score Albanian first on GEDmatch and plot near them on PCA plots, not with Sicilians?

Some tests closer to Bulgarians/Albanians and some with southern Italians/Sicilians.

[Pennywise]

read the map, dumb iranid

Balkanigga, what are you even trying to prove? Your DNA is obviously ruined and you have little to nothing to do with ancient Hellens.

[Sikeliot]

Some tests closer to Bulgarians/Albanians and some with southern Italians/Sicilians.

So then it should not be such a stretch to assume Albanians, too, would score high IBD sharing with Italians.

[Kelmendasi]

But until Albania is covered for IBD sharing you don't know for certain they wouldn't be the same way. Don't you personally score Albanian first on GEDmatch and plot near them on PCA plots, not with Sicilians?
Studies show that Albanians have a high amount of IBD among themselves and that they came from a small population about 1,500 years ago. Not sure where but I saw someone here post something showing who Albanians match the most in terms of IBD it seemed like we matched each other and Montenegrin's closest

[Coolguy1]

So then it should not be such a stretch to assume Albanians, too, would score high IBD sharing with Italians.

Look back at the data provided in the study. Maniots share very low ancestry with Italians yet according to the autosomal results for a Maniot you posted a couple days ago, they are nearly identical to other Peloponnesians. Autosomal results and IBD are two very different things.

[Sikeliot]

Look back at the data provided in the study. Maniots share very low ancestry with Italians yet according to the autosomal results for a Maniot you posted a couple days ago, they are nearly identical to other Peloponnesians. Autosomal results and IBD are two very different things.

Maniots have almost no IBD sharing with anyone other than Italy though, so it shows they're isolated.

Autosomally, Maniots are the closest on the mainland to Sicilians also. So IBD sharing and autosomal are different.

[Coolguy1]

Maniots have almost no IBD sharing with anyone other than Italy though, so it shows they're isolated.

Autosomally, Maniots are the closest on the mainland to Sicilians also. So IBD sharing and autosomal are different.

Right, so just because Greeks and Albanians may be similar autosomally, their actual ancestry may be very different from eachother.

[Voskos]

Balkanigga, what are you even trying to? Your DNA is obviously ruined and you have little to nothing to do with ancient Hellens.

seriously an octoroon like you should be the last to talk about ruined DNA. is there really any race turks haven't mixed with?

[Kelmendasi]

Maniots have almost no IBD sharing with anyone other than Italy though, so it shows they're isolated.

Autosomally, Maniots are the closest on the mainland to Sicilians also. So IBD sharing and autosomal are different.
Aren't Maniots modern day Spartans/Dorians?

[Coolguy1]

Aren't Maniots modern day Spartans/Dorians?

Pretty much.

[Kelmendasi]

Pretty much.
So basically they are the most accurate modern representation of ancient Greeks genetically?

[Sikeliot]

But some Laconians do come up more Sicilian and islander like. You don't but others do. They are closer to the Sicilian and Cyclades islander (who are close to identical) than to the northern Peloponnesian. See here:


Laconia:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.18
2 West_Med 22.12
3 West_Asian 15.78
4 North_Atlantic 15.57
5 Baltic 13.99
6 Red_Sea 1.71
7 Amerindian 1.32
8 East_Asian 0.69
9 Oceanian 0.33
10 South_Asian 0.17
11 Sub-Saharan 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 4.93
2 Greek_Thessaly 6.22
3 East_Sicilian 6.97
4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.37
5 South_Italian 8.65
6 West_Sicilian 9.4
7 Ashkenazi 9.77
8 Tuscan 13.05
9 Bulgarian 13.5
10 Algerian_Jewish 14.71
11 Italian_Jewish 14.97
12 Sephardic_Jewish 15.24
13 Romanian 16.04
14 North_Italian 18.03
15 Tunisian_Jewish 18.72
16 Cyprian 18.76
17 Libyan_Jewish 19.26
18 Serbian 20.5
19 Turkish 20.53
20 Lebanese_Muslim 22.22

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.1% Central_Greek + 18.9% Bulgarian @ 3.9
2 93.5% Central_Greek + 6.5% Erzya @ 3.94
3 85.2% Greek_Thessaly + 14.8% Armenian @ 3.95
4 93.1% Central_Greek + 6.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.01
5 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% Southwest_Russian @ 4.02
6 92.8% Central_Greek + 7.2% Ukrainian @ 4.04
7 93.8% Central_Greek + 6.2% Kargopol_Russian @ 4.04
8 90% Central_Greek + 10% Moldavian @ 4.05
9 79.6% Greek_Thessaly + 20.4% Cyprian @ 4.06
10 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% Lithuanian @ 4.08
11 63.1% Central_Greek + 36.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.09
12 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Estonian_Polish @ 4.11
13 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.13
14 91.4% Central_Greek + 8.6% Croatian @ 4.13
15 92.9% Central_Greek + 7.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.13
16 94.1% Central_Greek + 5.9% Belorussian @ 4.17
17 93.8% Central_Greek + 6.2% Polish @ 4.17
18 85.1% Greek_Thessaly + 14.9% Assyrian @ 4.18
19 85.6% Central_Greek + 14.4% Romanian @ 4.18
20 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% South_Polish @ 4.19


Trapani, Sicily:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.37
2 West_Med 22.73
3 North_Atlantic 19.67
4 West_Asian 11.88
5 Baltic 6.02
6 Red_Sea 5.86
7 Sub-Saharan 1.9
8 Oceanian 0.57

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 3.64
2 South_Italian 4.26
3 East_Sicilian 5.1
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.25
5 Central_Greek 6.34
6 Ashkenazi 7.69
7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.31
8 Italian_Jewish 8.38
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.78
10 Tuscan 10.14
11 Greek_Thessaly 11.11
12 Tunisian_Jewish 12.85
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.63
14 North_Italian 16.63
15 Cyprian 17.06
16 Bulgarian 19.7
17 Lebanese_Muslim 20.69
18 Romanian 21.41
19 Syrian 21.62
20 Tunisian 21.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.8% West_Sicilian + 27.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.04
2 60.2% Cyprian + 39.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.09
3 85.4% West_Sicilian + 14.6% Cyprian @ 2.19
4 89.5% West_Sicilian + 10.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.21
5 74.9% West_Sicilian + 25.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.26
6 74% West_Sicilian + 26% Italian_Jewish @ 2.28
7 89.2% West_Sicilian + 10.8% Samaritan @ 2.32
8 59.5% Cyprian + 40.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.33
9 89.8% West_Sicilian + 10.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.36
10 82.1% West_Sicilian + 17.9% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.37
11 56.4% West_Sicilian + 43.6% South_Italian @ 2.43
12 59% Cyprian + 41% Portuguese @ 2.47
13 61% Cyprian + 39% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.5
14 61.1% Cyprian + 38.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.53
15 58.5% Cyprian + 41.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.56
16 88.9% West_Sicilian + 11.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.59
17 63.2% Tuscan + 36.8% Cyprian @ 2.62
18 84.2% West_Sicilian + 15.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.63
19 90.6% West_Sicilian + 9.4% Palestinian @ 2.67
20 63.2% Cyprian + 36.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.71


Northern Peloponnese:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.4
2 North_Atlantic 21.7
3 West_Med 17.5
4 Baltic 14.86
5 West_Asian 14.02
6 Red_Sea 6.4
7 East_Asian 1.62
8 Oceanian 0.41
9 Amerindian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.59
2 Italian_Abruzzo 7.33
3 Central_Greek 8.75
4 East_Sicilian 9.75
5 Bulgarian 9.84
6 West_Sicilian 9.84
7 Tuscan 10.06
8 Romanian 11.14
9 Ashkenazi 12.46
10 South_Italian 12.72
11 North_Italian 14.11
12 Serbian 14.88
13 Sephardic_Jewish 17.59
14 Italian_Jewish 18.2
15 Algerian_Jewish 18.62
16 Moldavian 21.14
17 Portuguese 21.25
18 Tunisian_Jewish 21.4
19 Spanish_Extremadura 21.52
20 Libyan_Jewish 21.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.81
2 50.3% Cyprian + 49.7% Austrian @ 2.85
3 84.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.6% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.9
4 83.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.3% Southwest_Russian @ 2.93
5 85.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.7% Erzya @ 2.94
6 86.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.7% Lithuanian @ 2.96
7 84.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.3% Estonian_Polish @ 3
8 84.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.1% Belorussian @ 3.01
9 81.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 18.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.02
10 81.5% Central_Greek + 18.5% North_Swedish @ 3.02
11 85.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.8% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.12
12 75.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 24.1% Moldavian @ 3.13
13 83.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.1% Polish @ 3.19
14 82.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 17.2% Ukrainian @ 3.2
15 83.9% Central_Greek + 16.1% La_Brana-1 @ 3.23
16 81.2% Central_Greek + 18.8% Swedish @ 3.25
17 78.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 21.6% Croatian @ 3.29
18 52.7% Cyprian + 47.3% East_German @ 3.3
19 86.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.5% East_Finnish @ 3.32
20 86.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.6% Estonian @ 3.34


Cyclades islands:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.22
2 West_Med 20.69
3 North_Atlantic 17.19
4 West_Asian 14.26
5 Baltic 7.72
6 Red_Sea 5.67
7 Northeast_African 0.51
8 East_Asian 0.4
9 Sub-Saharan 0.31
10 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 3.06
2 East_Sicilian 3.47
3 Central_Greek 4.48
4 Ashkenazi 5.24
5 West_Sicilian 6.4
6 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
7 Sephardic_Jewish 7.19
8 Italian_Jewish 7.39
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.17
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.74
11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.37
12 Libyan_Jewish 12.28
13 Tuscan 12.87
14 Cyprian 14.06
15 Lebanese_Muslim 17.59
16 Syrian 18.89
17 Bulgarian 19.33
18 North_Italian 19.4
19 Turkish 19.88
20 Samaritan 20.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.2% Central_Greek + 36.8% Italian_Jewish @ 1.55
2 62.8% Central_Greek + 37.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 1.72
3 66.3% South_Italian + 33.7% Ashkenazi @ 1.74
4 52.2% Tuscan + 47.8% Cyprian @ 1.92
5 74% Central_Greek + 26% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.16
6 77.9% West_Sicilian + 22.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.25
7 52.8% North_Italian + 47.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.27
8 58.1% Cyprian + 41.9% North_Italian @ 2.28
9 73% East_Sicilian + 27% Italian_Jewish @ 2.3
10 63% Tuscan + 37% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.3
11 69.9% West_Sicilian + 30.1% Cyprian @ 2.34
12 69.6% Cyprian + 30.4% French @ 2.35
13 60.7% Sephardic_Jewish + 39.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.36
14 73% East_Sicilian + 27% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.4
15 68.1% Cyprian + 31.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.42
16 78.5% West_Sicilian + 21.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.48
17 67.6% Central_Greek + 32.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.49
18 76.4% Central_Greek + 23.6% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.49
19 74% Sephardic_Jewish + 26% Bulgarian @ 2.53
20 58.7% South_Italian + 41.3% East_Sicilian @ 2.59

[Coolguy1]

So basically they are the most accurate modern representation of ancient Greeks genetically?

Im not sure, ancient Greek populations were very diverse. Maniots share VERY little ancestry with other nations and even with neighboring Greeks, so I think its safe to say that the Maniots have been isolated for a very, very long time. They represent one of many different Greek subgroups.

[Kelmendasi]

Im not sure, ancient Greek populations were very diverse. Maniots share VERY little ancestry with other nations and even with neighboring Greeks, so I think its safe to say that the Maniots have been isolated for a very, very long time. They represent one of many different Greek subgroups.
How much European do they score on average?

[Sikeliot]

How much European do they score on average?


They have no IBD sharing with Levantines if that answers it.

[Coolguy1]

But some Laconians do come up more Sicilian and islander like. You don't but others do. They are closer to the Sicilian and Cyclades islander (who are close to identical) than to the northern Peloponnesian. See here:


Laconia:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.18
2 West_Med 22.12
3 West_Asian 15.78
4 North_Atlantic 15.57
5 Baltic 13.99
6 Red_Sea 1.71
7 Amerindian 1.32
8 East_Asian 0.69
9 Oceanian 0.33
10 South_Asian 0.17
11 Sub-Saharan 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 4.93
2 Greek_Thessaly 6.22
3 East_Sicilian 6.97
4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.37
5 South_Italian 8.65
6 West_Sicilian 9.4
7 Ashkenazi 9.77
8 Tuscan 13.05
9 Bulgarian 13.5
10 Algerian_Jewish 14.71
11 Italian_Jewish 14.97
12 Sephardic_Jewish 15.24
13 Romanian 16.04
14 North_Italian 18.03
15 Tunisian_Jewish 18.72
16 Cyprian 18.76
17 Libyan_Jewish 19.26
18 Serbian 20.5
19 Turkish 20.53
20 Lebanese_Muslim 22.22

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.1% Central_Greek + 18.9% Bulgarian @ 3.9
2 93.5% Central_Greek + 6.5% Erzya @ 3.94
3 85.2% Greek_Thessaly + 14.8% Armenian @ 3.95
4 93.1% Central_Greek + 6.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.01
5 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% Southwest_Russian @ 4.02
6 92.8% Central_Greek + 7.2% Ukrainian @ 4.04
7 93.8% Central_Greek + 6.2% Kargopol_Russian @ 4.04
8 90% Central_Greek + 10% Moldavian @ 4.05
9 79.6% Greek_Thessaly + 20.4% Cyprian @ 4.06
10 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% Lithuanian @ 4.08
11 63.1% Central_Greek + 36.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.09
12 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Estonian_Polish @ 4.11
13 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.13
14 91.4% Central_Greek + 8.6% Croatian @ 4.13
15 92.9% Central_Greek + 7.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.13
16 94.1% Central_Greek + 5.9% Belorussian @ 4.17
17 93.8% Central_Greek + 6.2% Polish @ 4.17
18 85.1% Greek_Thessaly + 14.9% Assyrian @ 4.18
19 85.6% Central_Greek + 14.4% Romanian @ 4.18
20 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% South_Polish @ 4.19


Trapani, Sicily:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.37
2 West_Med 22.73
3 North_Atlantic 19.67
4 West_Asian 11.88
5 Baltic 6.02
6 Red_Sea 5.86
7 Sub-Saharan 1.9
8 Oceanian 0.57

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 3.64
2 South_Italian 4.26
3 East_Sicilian 5.1
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.25
5 Central_Greek 6.34
6 Ashkenazi 7.69
7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.31
8 Italian_Jewish 8.38
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.78
10 Tuscan 10.14
11 Greek_Thessaly 11.11
12 Tunisian_Jewish 12.85
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.63
14 North_Italian 16.63
15 Cyprian 17.06
16 Bulgarian 19.7
17 Lebanese_Muslim 20.69
18 Romanian 21.41
19 Syrian 21.62
20 Tunisian 21.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.8% West_Sicilian + 27.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.04
2 60.2% Cyprian + 39.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.09
3 85.4% West_Sicilian + 14.6% Cyprian @ 2.19
4 89.5% West_Sicilian + 10.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.21
5 74.9% West_Sicilian + 25.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.26
6 74% West_Sicilian + 26% Italian_Jewish @ 2.28
7 89.2% West_Sicilian + 10.8% Samaritan @ 2.32
8 59.5% Cyprian + 40.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.33
9 89.8% West_Sicilian + 10.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.36
10 82.1% West_Sicilian + 17.9% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.37
11 56.4% West_Sicilian + 43.6% South_Italian @ 2.43
12 59% Cyprian + 41% Portuguese @ 2.47
13 61% Cyprian + 39% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.5
14 61.1% Cyprian + 38.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.53
15 58.5% Cyprian + 41.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.56
16 88.9% West_Sicilian + 11.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.59
17 63.2% Tuscan + 36.8% Cyprian @ 2.62
18 84.2% West_Sicilian + 15.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.63
19 90.6% West_Sicilian + 9.4% Palestinian @ 2.67
20 63.2% Cyprian + 36.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.71


Northern Peloponnese:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.4
2 North_Atlantic 21.7
3 West_Med 17.5
4 Baltic 14.86
5 West_Asian 14.02
6 Red_Sea 6.4
7 East_Asian 1.62
8 Oceanian 0.41
9 Amerindian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.59
2 Italian_Abruzzo 7.33
3 Central_Greek 8.75
4 East_Sicilian 9.75
5 Bulgarian 9.84
6 West_Sicilian 9.84
7 Tuscan 10.06
8 Romanian 11.14
9 Ashkenazi 12.46
10 South_Italian 12.72
11 North_Italian 14.11
12 Serbian 14.88
13 Sephardic_Jewish 17.59
14 Italian_Jewish 18.2
15 Algerian_Jewish 18.62
16 Moldavian 21.14
17 Portuguese 21.25
18 Tunisian_Jewish 21.4
19 Spanish_Extremadura 21.52
20 Libyan_Jewish 21.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.81
2 50.3% Cyprian + 49.7% Austrian @ 2.85
3 84.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.6% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.9
4 83.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.3% Southwest_Russian @ 2.93
5 85.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.7% Erzya @ 2.94
6 86.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.7% Lithuanian @ 2.96
7 84.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.3% Estonian_Polish @ 3
8 84.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.1% Belorussian @ 3.01
9 81.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 18.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.02
10 81.5% Central_Greek + 18.5% North_Swedish @ 3.02
11 85.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.8% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.12
12 75.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 24.1% Moldavian @ 3.13
13 83.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.1% Polish @ 3.19
14 82.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 17.2% Ukrainian @ 3.2
15 83.9% Central_Greek + 16.1% La_Brana-1 @ 3.23
16 81.2% Central_Greek + 18.8% Swedish @ 3.25
17 78.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 21.6% Croatian @ 3.29
18 52.7% Cyprian + 47.3% East_German @ 3.3
19 86.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.5% East_Finnish @ 3.32
20 86.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.6% Estonian @ 3.34


Cyclades islands:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.22
2 West_Med 20.69
3 North_Atlantic 17.19
4 West_Asian 14.26
5 Baltic 7.72
6 Red_Sea 5.67
7 Northeast_African 0.51
8 East_Asian 0.4
9 Sub-Saharan 0.31
10 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 3.06
2 East_Sicilian 3.47
3 Central_Greek 4.48
4 Ashkenazi 5.24
5 West_Sicilian 6.4
6 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
7 Sephardic_Jewish 7.19
8 Italian_Jewish 7.39
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.17
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.74
11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.37
12 Libyan_Jewish 12.28
13 Tuscan 12.87
14 Cyprian 14.06
15 Lebanese_Muslim 17.59
16 Syrian 18.89
17 Bulgarian 19.33
18 North_Italian 19.4
19 Turkish 19.88
20 Samaritan 20.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.2% Central_Greek + 36.8% Italian_Jewish @ 1.55
2 62.8% Central_Greek + 37.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 1.72
3 66.3% South_Italian + 33.7% Ashkenazi @ 1.74
4 52.2% Tuscan + 47.8% Cyprian @ 1.92
5 74% Central_Greek + 26% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.16
6 77.9% West_Sicilian + 22.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.25
7 52.8% North_Italian + 47.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.27
8 58.1% Cyprian + 41.9% North_Italian @ 2.28
9 73% East_Sicilian + 27% Italian_Jewish @ 2.3
10 63% Tuscan + 37% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.3
11 69.9% West_Sicilian + 30.1% Cyprian @ 2.34
12 69.6% Cyprian + 30.4% French @ 2.35
13 60.7% Sephardic_Jewish + 39.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.36
14 73% East_Sicilian + 27% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.4
15 68.1% Cyprian + 31.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.42
16 78.5% West_Sicilian + 21.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.48
17 67.6% Central_Greek + 32.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.49
18 76.4% Central_Greek + 23.6% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.49
19 74% Sephardic_Jewish + 26% Bulgarian @ 2.53
20 58.7% South_Italian + 41.3% East_Sicilian @ 2.59

These Peloponnesians may have recent ancestry from the islands, OR they could be Maniots/Tsakonians, from the coastal regions. Anyone could say anything on Gedmatch bro, I take it with a grain of salt.

[Kelmendasi]

They have no IBD sharing with Levantines if that answers it.
Who do they share IBD with the most?

[Sikeliot]

These Peloponnesians may have recent ancestry from the islands, OR they could be Maniots/Tsakonians, from the coastal regions. Anyone could say anything on Gedmatch bro, I take it with a grain of salt.

The point was showing the difference in the person from Laconia who is closer to the Sicilian and the islander, as opposed to the northern Peloponnesian who scores differently from both.

[Sikeliot]

Who do they share IBD with the most?

Italian.

[Kelmendasi]

Italian.
Interesting I thought they would resemble Greeks the closest

[Sikeliot]

What is funny is the Cyclades person is closer to "East Sicilian" and "South Italian" than the Sicilian is. But that proves my point. The person from Laconia is closer to those two than to their fellow Peloponnesian.

[Sikeliot]

Interesting I thought they would resemble Greeks the closest

They are only close to other Peloponnesians and to Italian. Otherwise, they have no IBD sharing with Levantines, and very little with Slavs.

[Kelmendasi]

They are only close to other Peloponnesians and to Italian. Otherwise, they have no IBD sharing with Levantines, and very little with Slavs.
What about Albos?

[Pennywise]

seriously an octoroon like you should be the last to talk about ruined DNA. is there really any race turks haven't mixed with?

I'm cool with my mixed genes, it's natural for exogamic nomadic societies. But obviously you are having a stroke by the current studies.

http://i.hizliresim.com/NpgPkO.jpg

[Voskos]

nice meme komsu. you should become painter.

[Laberia]

Aren't Maniots modern day Spartans/Dorians?

There are many theories. For example this is a greek theory about Maniates:

Source: S. Liakos, page 82 of the book "The origins of Armonians".

Page 82, brief translations of some passages - regarding settlement of Mani area and Peloponnese in general (the author connects the Illyrian Manioi/Manii, with Mani in the Peloponnese):

1) "From the Dalmato-Illyrian coast of Dalmatia descended settlers who flooded the western Peloponnese, especially during the last centuries of Roman rule. A portion of the settlers, indeed, must have been Manioi, an Illyrian tribe inhabiting the area of Narenta river. These Manioi are allegedly connected in Porphyrogenitus with the name Arentanoi (more accurately Narentanoi), and called Paganoi because until then they remained unbaptized, i.e. pagans."

2) "... the Christians of Romania (= Byzantine empire) called idolaters “Hellenes” – and such were the residents of Castle Maina in the years of Porphyrogenitus, probably Illyrio-Vlach Manioi and not Greki ‘Free-Laconians’ as our scholars write."

3) "Illyrio-Vlachs, that must have lived in Mani, where in the 14th century Montenegrin Vlachs descended together with Arvanitovlachs."

http://rs1074.pbsrc.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Page82_zpsuhmmqd6q.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip

So, there is a possibility that this people are from your region, Kelmendi. :)

[Skerdilaid]

Autosomal results and IBD are two very different things.

Read this article (https://isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_descent) bro.

[Coolguy1]

Read this article (https://isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_descent) bro.

You can be very close to someone autosomally and share completely different ancestry. Just like if a Cypriot marries a Bulgarian the child will come out autosomally similar to Greeks, but the actual sharing of ancestry with them will be low.

[Sikeliot]

You can be very close to someone autosomally and share completely different ancestry. Just like if a Cypriot marries a Bulgarian the child will come out autosomally similar to Greeks, but the actual sharing of ancestry with them will be low.

Sicilian + Bulgarian is similar to a large share of Greeks also.

[Voskos]

some interesting names in the research team.


Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks

George Stamatoyannopoulos, Aritra Bose, Athanasios Teodosiadis, Fotis Tsetsos, Anna Plantinga, Nikoletta Psatha, Nikos Zogas, Evangelia Yannaki, Pierre Zalloua, Kenneth K Kidd, Brian L Browning, John Stamatoyannopoulos, Peristera Paschou and Petros Drineas

:laugh:

[Sikeliot]

Autosomal and IBD answer different questions.

Autosomal would answer "Where does group X plot relative to everyone else in total ancestry?"

IBD answers "What percentage of recent ancestors are shared?"

[Kelmendasi]

There are many theories. For example this is a greek theory about Maniates:

Source: S. Liakos, page 82 of the book "The origins of Armonians".

Page 82, brief translations of some passages - regarding settlement of Mani area and Peloponnese in general (the author connects the Illyrian Manioi/Manii, with Mani in the Peloponnese):

1) "From the Dalmato-Illyrian coast of Dalmatia descended settlers who flooded the western Peloponnese, especially during the last centuries of Roman rule. A portion of the settlers, indeed, must have been Manioi, an Illyrian tribe inhabiting the area of Narenta river. These Manioi are allegedly connected in Porphyrogenitus with the name Arentanoi (more accurately Narentanoi), and called Paganoi because until then they remained unbaptized, i.e. pagans."

2) "... the Christians of Romania (= Byzantine empire) called idolaters “Hellenes” – and such were the residents of Castle Maina in the years of Porphyrogenitus, probably Illyrio-Vlach Manioi and not Greki ‘Free-Laconians’ as our scholars write."

3) "Illyrio-Vlachs, that must have lived in Mani, where in the 14th century Montenegrin Vlachs descended together with Arvanitovlachs."

http://rs1074.pbsrc.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Page82_zpsuhmmqd6q.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip

So, there is a possibility that this people are from your region, Kelmendi. :)

Very kl bro:)

[Laberia]

Very kl bro:)
There are different theories. What we know is that Mani is full with Albanian, Vlach and Slavic toponymus. According to a study of two scholars, one greek and the other i think American, in the region of Mani there are around 1500 Albanian toponymus.
You know what? Start to search in google about the towers,(kulla) in Mani, identic with your kulla.

[Coolguy1]

There are different theories. What we know is that Mani is full with Albanian, Vlach and Slavic toponymus. According to a study of two scholars, one greek and the other i think American, in the region of Mani there are around 1500 Albanian toponymus.
You know what? Start to search in google about the towers,(kulla) in Mani, identic with your kulla.

You are even more stupid than I thought, there arent even 1,500 toponyms in Mani.

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17310529_1276679312415216_1134254222_o.jpg?oh=7a3d f9129ece9b55b1a49b603f850b86&oe=58C75ADD

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17310515_1276679292415218_1888282930_o.jpg?oh=cdd8 55c080795952365d0d614444c231&oe=58C7523E

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17273717_1276679265748554_2045850966_o.jpg?oh=84d0 99502a569eda04989b68873c2add&oe=58C74399

Here are the toponyms in Mani in the year 1700, now please, tell me where the 1,500 Albanian toponyms are you brainless fuck

[Voskos]

But some Laconians do come up more Sicilian and islander like. You don't but others do. They are closer to the Sicilian and Cyclades islander (who are close to identical) than to the northern Peloponnesian. See here:


Laconia:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.18
2 West_Med 22.12
3 West_Asian 15.78
4 North_Atlantic 15.57
5 Baltic 13.99
6 Red_Sea 1.71
7 Amerindian 1.32
8 East_Asian 0.69
9 Oceanian 0.33
10 South_Asian 0.17
11 Sub-Saharan 0.12



this guy is almost identical to me, except for baltic and red sea scores. ( i get higher red sea and lower baltic)

[Skerdilaid]

You can be very close to someone autosomally and share completely different ancestry. Just like if a Cypriot marries a Bulgarian the child will come out autosomally similar to Greeks, but the actual sharing of ancestry with them will be low.

You're thinking on PCA plots and hypothetical components created by the online armchair scientists etc. which is totally something else and not what we were talking about. Again, IBD is determined by analyzing ones autosomal chromosomes (in simple words your autosomal profile).

[Coolguy1]

You're thinking on PCA plots and hypothetical components created by the online armchair scientists etc. which is totally something else and not what we were talking about. Again, IBD is determined by analyzing ones autosomal chromosomes (in simple words your autosomal profile).

So in other words, the autosomal results on gedmatch are different than what is used in PCA plots?

[Herr Abubu]

There are different theories. What we know is that Mani is full with Albanian, Vlach and Slavic toponymus. According to a study of two scholars, one greek and the other i think American, in the region of Mani there are around 1500 Albanian toponymus.
You know what? Start to search in google about the towers,(kulla) in Mani, identic with your kulla.

And South Albania is teeming with Slavic toponyms, but you won't even acknowledge the presence of any Slavs there. The word kule is used by all Balkan nations, just like the towers were built by all the Balkan nations, and comes from Persian through Turkish. The tower-house itself is Byzantine.

[Sikeliot]

this guy is almost identical to me, except for baltic and red sea scores. ( i get higher red sea and lower baltic)

So it shows the Sicily/Laconia/Crete similarity is indeed some Laconians being genetically more akin to islanders.

This result is also similar -- a Sicilian from Palermo. How close is this one to you? Their Red Sea is higher, Baltic lower, than the Laconian.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.52
2 West_Asian 19.03
3 West_Med 14.38
4 North_Sea 13.32
5 Atlantic 12.19
6 Baltic 5.46
7 Red_Sea 4.92
8 Northeast_African 1.36
9 Sub-Saharan 1.18
10 Oceanian 0.64

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 6.2
2 East_Sicilian 6.48
3 South_Italian 7.04
4 Italian_Abruzzo 7.1
5 Ashkenazi 8.35
6 West_Sicilian 10.32
7 Italian_Jewish 10.75
8 Greek_Thessaly 10.85
9 Sephardic_Jewish 11.57
10 Greek 11.93
11 Algerian_Jewish 13.04
12 Tuscan 13.12
13 Tunisian_Jewish 14.85
14 Libyan_Jewish 15.68
15 Cyprian 15.68
16 Turkish 16.1
17 Lebanese_Muslim 17.18
18 Bulgarian 17.39
19 Syrian 18.29
20 Romanian 18.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.9% Assyrian + 44.1% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.4
2 55.4% Assyrian + 44.6% Portuguese @ 4.44
3 63.4% Tuscan + 36.6% Armenian @ 4.65
4 56.6% Assyrian + 43.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.68
5 79.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.1% Armenian @ 4.7
6 52.3% North_Italian + 47.7% Assyrian @ 4.74
7 62.6% Tuscan + 37.4% Assyrian @ 4.77
8 56.7% Assyrian + 43.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.78
9 63.8% Tuscan + 36.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.86
10 86.3% South_Italian + 13.7% Tabassaran @ 4.87
11 88.7% East_Sicilian + 11.3% Georgian @ 4.88
12 79.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.1% Assyrian @ 4.92
13 89.9% East_Sicilian + 10.1% Abhkasian @ 4.94
14 80.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 19.1% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.97
15 89.2% East_Sicilian + 10.8% Ossetian @ 5.09
16 84.1% East_Sicilian + 15.9% Armenian @ 5.1
17 86.6% South_Italian + 13.4% Lezgin @ 5.12
18 87% East_Sicilian + 13% Kumyk @ 5.14
19 55.4% Assyrian + 44.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.16
20 87.4% South_Italian + 12.6% Chechen @ 5.17

[Sikeliot]

It is also worth noting, Dodecanese islanders probably do not all plot like Rhodians either. Rhodes may have been more cosmopolitan.

[Voskos]

So it shows the Sicily/Laconia/Crete similarity is indeed some Laconians being genetically more akin to islanders.

This result is also similar -- a Sicilian from Palermo. How close is this one to you? Their Red Sea is higher, Baltic lower, than the Laconian.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.52
2 West_Asian 19.03
3 West_Med 14.38
4 North_Sea 13.32
5 Atlantic 12.19
6 Baltic 5.46
7 Red_Sea 4.92
8 Northeast_African 1.36
9 Sub-Saharan 1.18
10 Oceanian 0.64

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 6.2
2 East_Sicilian 6.48
3 South_Italian 7.04
4 Italian_Abruzzo 7.1
5 Ashkenazi 8.35
6 West_Sicilian 10.32
7 Italian_Jewish 10.75
8 Greek_Thessaly 10.85
9 Sephardic_Jewish 11.57
10 Greek 11.93
11 Algerian_Jewish 13.04
12 Tuscan 13.12
13 Tunisian_Jewish 14.85
14 Libyan_Jewish 15.68
15 Cyprian 15.68
16 Turkish 16.1
17 Lebanese_Muslim 17.18
18 Bulgarian 17.39
19 Syrian 18.29
20 Romanian 18.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.9% Assyrian + 44.1% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.4
2 55.4% Assyrian + 44.6% Portuguese @ 4.44
3 63.4% Tuscan + 36.6% Armenian @ 4.65
4 56.6% Assyrian + 43.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.68
5 79.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.1% Armenian @ 4.7
6 52.3% North_Italian + 47.7% Assyrian @ 4.74
7 62.6% Tuscan + 37.4% Assyrian @ 4.77
8 56.7% Assyrian + 43.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.78
9 63.8% Tuscan + 36.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.86
10 86.3% South_Italian + 13.7% Tabassaran @ 4.87
11 88.7% East_Sicilian + 11.3% Georgian @ 4.88
12 79.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.1% Assyrian @ 4.92
13 89.9% East_Sicilian + 10.1% Abhkasian @ 4.94
14 80.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 19.1% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.97
15 89.2% East_Sicilian + 10.8% Ossetian @ 5.09
16 84.1% East_Sicilian + 15.9% Armenian @ 5.1
17 86.6% South_Italian + 13.4% Lezgin @ 5.12
18 87% East_Sicilian + 13% Kumyk @ 5.14
19 55.4% Assyrian + 44.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.16
20 87.4% South_Italian + 12.6% Chechen @ 5.17

is this k13 or k15?

[Sikeliot]

is this k13 or k15?

K15.

[Laberia]

You are even more stupid than I thought, there arent even 1,500 toponyms in Mani.

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17310529_1276679312415216_1134254222_o.jpg?oh=7a3d f9129ece9b55b1a49b603f850b86&oe=58C75ADD

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17310515_1276679292415218_1888282930_o.jpg?oh=cdd8 55c080795952365d0d614444c231&oe=58C7523E

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17273717_1276679265748554_2045850966_o.jpg?oh=84d0 99502a569eda04989b68873c2add&oe=58C74399

Here are the toponyms in Mani in the year 1700, now please, tell me where the 1,500 Albanian toponyms are you brainless fuck

Find this book:
Place names of southwest Peloponnesus, register and indexes
Author: Demetrius J Georgacas; William A McDonald
1450 is the correct number.

[Laberia]

And South Albania is teeming with Slavic toponyms, but you won't even acknowledge the presence of any Slavs there. The word kule is used by all Balkan nations, just like the towers were built by all the Balkan nations, and comes from Persian through Turkish. The tower-house itself is Byzantine.
Mami ta tha?

[Coolguy1]

Find this book:
Place names of southwest Peloponnesus, register and indexes
Author: Demetrius J Georgacas; William A McDonald
1450 is the correct number.

I have the book you idiot, here I am holding it

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17236874_1276700842413063_1669586884_o.jpg?oh=6482 a3bac9b5d0fe7282eef77f95d328&oe=58C8504E

Mani is not included in the book. These toponyms you speak of are from the Soulimochoria where Arvanites live.

Next time, you should do more research because you just embarrassed yourself

[Voskos]

K15.

also quite close to me then. but I get some east euro that he doesn't .

[Skerdilaid]

So in other words, the autosomal results on gedmatch are different than what is used in PCA plots?

They are not, you basically have one profile but all depends what kind of test you have purchased, how they are modelled as by the company you have tested and/or transferred your results to, that's why generally speaking they are not that reliable (Family Finder, 23andme, AncestryDNA etc because they're your basic entry level tests). In order to really understand your autosomal profile in detail you need Whole-Genome sequencing, what they have done in this study that we are discussing for example.

[Voskos]

K15.

also quite close to me then. but I get some east euro that he doesn't .

[Herr Abubu]

I have the book you idiot, here I am holding it

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17236874_1276700842413063_1669586884_o.jpg?oh=6482 a3bac9b5d0fe7282eef77f95d328&oe=58C8504E

Mani is not included in the book. These toponyms you speak of are from the Soulimochoria where Arvanites live.

Next time, you should do more research because you just embarrassed yourself

:lol:

[Sikeliot]

also quite close to me then. but I get some east euro that he doesn't .

All Sicilians are probably close to southern Greeks and Cretans/islanders, but if you saw my other thread you see that northeastern Sicily is the most like Crete: in fact, they may be autosomally closer to Crete than to other parts of Sicily.

[Voskos]

All Sicilians are probably close to southern Greeks and Cretans/islanders, but if you saw my other thread you see that northeastern Sicily is the most like Crete: in fact, they may be autosomally closer to Crete than to other parts of Sicily.

yeah if i remember right my first pop on k15 was east sicily

[catgeorge]

This is the North Greek one from Battalia - Yugoslavs overlap with Greeks not the other way around. Some Yugoslavs overlap with Italians. Sikeliot is wrong about North Greeks again.

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/lao.jpg


The study included a sample of 51 northern Greeks. It is evident that these Greeks (marked by EL), form a homogeneous cluster, none of them falling in the middle of clusters formed by other ethnic groups. Some of the former Yugoslavs (marked by YU) do fall in the middle of the Greek cluster, however. These former Yugoslavs, as well as the two Italian groups (IT1 and IT2) form the Greeks' closest genetic neighbors. The Yugoslavs are between Greeks and Czechs and Poles, consistent with their having both indigenous Balkan and non-Balkan Slavic origins; the Italians are between Greeks and Spaniards, consistent with their having an Eastern Mediterranean contribution, due perhaps to Neolithic farmers, or Greek and Etruscan colonists.

[Ylla]

But some Laconians do come up more Sicilian and islander like. You don't but others do. They are closer to the Sicilian and Cyclades islander (who are close to identical) than to the northern Peloponnesian. See here:


Laconia:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.18
2 West_Med 22.12
3 West_Asian 15.78
4 North_Atlantic 15.57
5 Baltic 13.99
6 Red_Sea 1.71
7 Amerindian 1.32
8 East_Asian 0.69
9 Oceanian 0.33
10 South_Asian 0.17
11 Sub-Saharan 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 4.93
2 Greek_Thessaly 6.22
3 East_Sicilian 6.97
4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.37
5 South_Italian 8.65
6 West_Sicilian 9.4
7 Ashkenazi 9.77
8 Tuscan 13.05
9 Bulgarian 13.5
10 Algerian_Jewish 14.71
11 Italian_Jewish 14.97
12 Sephardic_Jewish 15.24
13 Romanian 16.04
14 North_Italian 18.03
15 Tunisian_Jewish 18.72
16 Cyprian 18.76
17 Libyan_Jewish 19.26
18 Serbian 20.5
19 Turkish 20.53
20 Lebanese_Muslim 22.22

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.1% Central_Greek + 18.9% Bulgarian @ 3.9
2 93.5% Central_Greek + 6.5% Erzya @ 3.94
3 85.2% Greek_Thessaly + 14.8% Armenian @ 3.95
4 93.1% Central_Greek + 6.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.01
5 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% Southwest_Russian @ 4.02
6 92.8% Central_Greek + 7.2% Ukrainian @ 4.04
7 93.8% Central_Greek + 6.2% Kargopol_Russian @ 4.04
8 90% Central_Greek + 10% Moldavian @ 4.05
9 79.6% Greek_Thessaly + 20.4% Cyprian @ 4.06
10 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% Lithuanian @ 4.08
11 63.1% Central_Greek + 36.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.09
12 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Estonian_Polish @ 4.11
13 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.13
14 91.4% Central_Greek + 8.6% Croatian @ 4.13
15 92.9% Central_Greek + 7.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.13
16 94.1% Central_Greek + 5.9% Belorussian @ 4.17
17 93.8% Central_Greek + 6.2% Polish @ 4.17
18 85.1% Greek_Thessaly + 14.9% Assyrian @ 4.18
19 85.6% Central_Greek + 14.4% Romanian @ 4.18
20 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% South_Polish @ 4.19


Trapani, Sicily:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.37
2 West_Med 22.73
3 North_Atlantic 19.67
4 West_Asian 11.88
5 Baltic 6.02
6 Red_Sea 5.86
7 Sub-Saharan 1.9
8 Oceanian 0.57

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 3.64
2 South_Italian 4.26
3 East_Sicilian 5.1
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.25
5 Central_Greek 6.34
6 Ashkenazi 7.69
7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.31
8 Italian_Jewish 8.38
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.78
10 Tuscan 10.14
11 Greek_Thessaly 11.11
12 Tunisian_Jewish 12.85
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.63
14 North_Italian 16.63
15 Cyprian 17.06
16 Bulgarian 19.7
17 Lebanese_Muslim 20.69
18 Romanian 21.41
19 Syrian 21.62
20 Tunisian 21.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.8% West_Sicilian + 27.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.04
2 60.2% Cyprian + 39.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.09
3 85.4% West_Sicilian + 14.6% Cyprian @ 2.19
4 89.5% West_Sicilian + 10.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.21
5 74.9% West_Sicilian + 25.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.26
6 74% West_Sicilian + 26% Italian_Jewish @ 2.28
7 89.2% West_Sicilian + 10.8% Samaritan @ 2.32
8 59.5% Cyprian + 40.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.33
9 89.8% West_Sicilian + 10.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.36
10 82.1% West_Sicilian + 17.9% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.37
11 56.4% West_Sicilian + 43.6% South_Italian @ 2.43
12 59% Cyprian + 41% Portuguese @ 2.47
13 61% Cyprian + 39% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.5
14 61.1% Cyprian + 38.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.53
15 58.5% Cyprian + 41.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.56
16 88.9% West_Sicilian + 11.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.59
17 63.2% Tuscan + 36.8% Cyprian @ 2.62
18 84.2% West_Sicilian + 15.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.63
19 90.6% West_Sicilian + 9.4% Palestinian @ 2.67
20 63.2% Cyprian + 36.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.71


Northern Peloponnese:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.4
2 North_Atlantic 21.7
3 West_Med 17.5
4 Baltic 14.86
5 West_Asian 14.02
6 Red_Sea 6.4
7 East_Asian 1.62
8 Oceanian 0.41
9 Amerindian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.59
2 Italian_Abruzzo 7.33
3 Central_Greek 8.75
4 East_Sicilian 9.75
5 Bulgarian 9.84
6 West_Sicilian 9.84
7 Tuscan 10.06
8 Romanian 11.14
9 Ashkenazi 12.46
10 South_Italian 12.72
11 North_Italian 14.11
12 Serbian 14.88
13 Sephardic_Jewish 17.59
14 Italian_Jewish 18.2
15 Algerian_Jewish 18.62
16 Moldavian 21.14
17 Portuguese 21.25
18 Tunisian_Jewish 21.4
19 Spanish_Extremadura 21.52
20 Libyan_Jewish 21.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.81
2 50.3% Cyprian + 49.7% Austrian @ 2.85
3 84.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.6% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.9
4 83.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.3% Southwest_Russian @ 2.93
5 85.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.7% Erzya @ 2.94
6 86.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.7% Lithuanian @ 2.96
7 84.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.3% Estonian_Polish @ 3
8 84.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.1% Belorussian @ 3.01
9 81.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 18.1% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.02
10 81.5% Central_Greek + 18.5% North_Swedish @ 3.02
11 85.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.8% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.12
12 75.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 24.1% Moldavian @ 3.13
13 83.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.1% Polish @ 3.19
14 82.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 17.2% Ukrainian @ 3.2
15 83.9% Central_Greek + 16.1% La_Brana-1 @ 3.23
16 81.2% Central_Greek + 18.8% Swedish @ 3.25
17 78.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 21.6% Croatian @ 3.29
18 52.7% Cyprian + 47.3% East_German @ 3.3
19 86.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.5% East_Finnish @ 3.32
20 86.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.6% Estonian @ 3.34


Cyclades islands:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.22
2 West_Med 20.69
3 North_Atlantic 17.19
4 West_Asian 14.26
5 Baltic 7.72
6 Red_Sea 5.67
7 Northeast_African 0.51
8 East_Asian 0.4
9 Sub-Saharan 0.31
10 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 3.06
2 East_Sicilian 3.47
3 Central_Greek 4.48
4 Ashkenazi 5.24
5 West_Sicilian 6.4
6 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
7 Sephardic_Jewish 7.19
8 Italian_Jewish 7.39
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.17
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.74
11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.37
12 Libyan_Jewish 12.28
13 Tuscan 12.87
14 Cyprian 14.06
15 Lebanese_Muslim 17.59
16 Syrian 18.89
17 Bulgarian 19.33
18 North_Italian 19.4
19 Turkish 19.88
20 Samaritan 20.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.2% Central_Greek + 36.8% Italian_Jewish @ 1.55
2 62.8% Central_Greek + 37.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 1.72
3 66.3% South_Italian + 33.7% Ashkenazi @ 1.74
4 52.2% Tuscan + 47.8% Cyprian @ 1.92
5 74% Central_Greek + 26% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.16
6 77.9% West_Sicilian + 22.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.25
7 52.8% North_Italian + 47.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.27
8 58.1% Cyprian + 41.9% North_Italian @ 2.28
9 73% East_Sicilian + 27% Italian_Jewish @ 2.3
10 63% Tuscan + 37% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.3
11 69.9% West_Sicilian + 30.1% Cyprian @ 2.34
12 69.6% Cyprian + 30.4% French @ 2.35
13 60.7% Sephardic_Jewish + 39.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.36
14 73% East_Sicilian + 27% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.4
15 68.1% Cyprian + 31.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.42
16 78.5% West_Sicilian + 21.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.48
17 67.6% Central_Greek + 32.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.49
18 76.4% Central_Greek + 23.6% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.49
19 74% Sephardic_Jewish + 26% Bulgarian @ 2.53
20 58.7% South_Italian + 41.3% East_Sicilian @ 2.59

That east med :eek: long live natufian master race :love0020:

[Sikeliot]

yeah if i remember right my first pop on k15 was east sicily

This doesn't surprise me. I think the sample population is from Catania.

[Sikeliot]

Sorcelow I have a question for you: do you have any cousins on GEDmatch (using the "One to many" match) that you know are 100% Laconian? I'd be curious to see how their results come up.

[Coolguy1]

Sorcelow I have a question for you: do you have any cousins on GEDmatch (using the "One to many" match) that you know are 100% Laconian? I'd be curious to see how their results come up.

No I dont, why?

[Sikeliot]

No I dont, why?

I want to see how their results come up. You're more northern shifted by a small amount than the other Laconians I have, which makes me want to see which type of result is more typical.

I'll see if I can find any others.

[Coolguy1]

I want to see how their results come up. You're more northern shifted by a small amount than the other Laconians I have, which makes me want to see which type of result is more typical.

I'll see if I can find any others.

Well my fathers town is in the northern Taygetus range and my mothers further south

[The.Mask]

:jump0000::jump0000::jump0000::jump0000::jump0000: :jump0000::jump0000::jump0000::jump0000::jump0000: :jump0000:

Reminds me of the time the other history thief - labia's best friend 'The.Mask' invented that a Roman Emperor changed his name to Albanian one!



:1127::1127::1127::1127:

I pointed out Manuel Kantakouzenos was not the Emperor of Rome or Byzantium but a local Despot in the Morea and The.Mask ran away leaving Labia to try and defend his statement.. Reminds me of a friend of mine who used to have a dog that ate its own shit.. Doesn't matter how much you beat the poor dog - its instinct is to continue eating shit! :picard1: This is what happens when you learn history from a Iman..

I am right here my mongrel looking neo greek and i have totally forgotten about that thread.

Unlike you i don't have the luxury to stay awake till 3 am.

Kantakuzemos was a despot of Morea ( Peloponnese) but also a pretender of the roman throne and one of the most important figures of the roman empire for the time.

Anyway it doesn't matter because i was proving how numerous albanians were in Beotia, Athens and Peloponnese areas in the 15th century and the only ones who actually fought ottomans for several decades and also called " the last wall of defence of the roman empire and Constandinopole" and disproving your delusional claims about numbers and power when they actually were the de facto rulers of those lands.

This was of course before punjabi looking neo greeks such as you b were babtised as the heirs of socrates.

[The.Mask]

And South Albania is teeming with Slavic toponyms, but you won't even acknowledge the presence of any Slavs there. The word kule is used by all Balkan nations, just like the towers were built by all the Balkan nations, and comes from Persian through Turkish. The tower-house itself is Byzantine.

Your self hate is becoming big.

Also please don't start talking about anything else or self criticism or mental capability or whatever.

You become ridiculous when you try to discover the truth and create metaphysical connections with people whose identity and history is based on lies and created in the offices of London and you know very well about what I am talking about.

I don't agree many times with Laberia but your anger towards him makes you look bad.

There were Slavs in southeast of albanian lands but a large number were killed and MUZAKAJ dynasty biography explains this also.

The toponyms are of Bulgarian phonetic type and are releated to the shift from turkic b speaking empire to Slavic speaking state in the start of the 10th century and those lands were under their influence.

Also every anthropologist accepts that Kulla type of building is associated with albanians or people related to albanians such as montenegrins. You know this very well.

Sincerely you are not making any sense anymore especially with your "deep and truthful thinking" in a forum such as this with people that would use your words just as propaganda food.

I am saying this as your friend if you consider me a friend of course.

[The.Mask]

Find this book:
Place names of southwest Peloponnesus, register and indexes
Author: Demetrius J Georgacas; William A McDonald
1450 is the correct number.

Look, Beotia, livadia, attica peninsula and Athens and large parts of Peloponnese , especially middle and north east Peloponnese were full of albanian medieval invaders and might have been totally albanian also but I think you are worng on this.

Mani region does not even have 1,500 toponyms methinks let alone all of them being albanian.

[Queen B]

My guess is people in Epirus and northern Greece would have higher IBD sharing with Albania than with Italy, by far. But Peloponnese to Albania will be lower than it is to Italy, even if only by a small amount.

IBD sharing with Spain is in the 60s, so Albania could not possibly be lower than that.

Haven't you posted 100 results from Greeks with the IBD , top5 countries of ancestry?

[Herr Abubu]

Your self hate is becoming big.

Also please don't start talking about anything else or self criticism or mental capability or whatever.

You become ridiculous when you try to discover the truth and create metaphysical connections with people whose identity and history is based on lies and created in the offices of London and you know very well about what I am talking about.

I don't agree many times with Laberia but your anger towards him makes you look bad.

There were Slavs in southeast of albanian lands but a large number were killed and MUZAKAJ dynasty biography explains this also.

The toponyms are of Bulgarian phonetic type and are releated to the shift from turkic b speaking empire to Slavic speaking state in the start of the 10th century and those lands were under their influence.

Also every anthropologist accepts that Kulla type of building is associated with albanians or people related to albanians such as montenegrins. You know this very well.

Sincerely you are not making any sense anymore especially with your "deep and truthful thinking" in a forum such as this with people that would use your words just as propaganda food.

I am saying this as your friend if you consider me a friend of course.

There is no self-hate here, just no lies.

Toponyms, especially that of small villages and such, are rarely effected by who rules. This is why you find virtually no Turkish village names in the Balkans. There was a great presence of Slavs in the South, who have clearly been assimilated going by the large amount of R1a and I2a in South Albania. The testimony of Muzaka is a red herring.

I have no anger towards anyone, this goes for Laberia as well, but I do find him contemptible. He's something to look down upon, like a cockroach. That's me speaking factually, though, it isn't personal.

I think you project when you say that this will be used as some sort of propaganda. Most of the Greeks here don't think like that because they're sane people who don't see these grounds as some platform to spread their ideas. You do seem to think that way, on the other hand.

The kulla might be associated with Albanians, and it only became popular among Albanians in the 17th century, because these tower-houses were very practical now that the culture degenerated into constant blood feuding. The reason why it's popular in Mani is also similar, I'd guess, seeing as Maniotes are known for being very ill-tempered and violent. You will, however, see these types of structures even in places like Cyprus and the Middle East. Maybe Laberia's Mardaites brought them to Cyprus, but to the ME?

[Voskos]

weirdest thing about the.mask is his level of english changing from one post to another. like about a month ago he'd spell like the average uneducated village person, and now he writes like a true englishman that went to cambridge university.

[Pennywise]

weirdest thing about the.mask is his level of english changing from one post to another. like about a month ago he'd spell like the average uneducated village person, and now he writes like a true englishman that went to cambridge university.

Many Albanian accounts have multiple users here. Probably Kastrioti occasionally uses his account too.

[Laberia]

.....

[Peterski]

Comments from Eurogenes blog about Slavic admixture in modern Southern Greece:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

Interesting read, "The plague pandemic and Slavic expansion in the 6th-8th centuries":

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf

It is possible that Slavs had a higher immunity to plague than Non-Slavic populations.

[catgeorge]

Comments from Eurogenes blog about Slavic admixture in modern Southern Greece:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

Interesting read, "The plague pandemic and Slavic expansion in the 6th-8th centuries":

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf

It is possible that Slavs had a higher immunity to plague than Non-Slavic populations.

Bla bla bla Slavs getting their knickers in a knot.

Even in your own report it specifies deportations to Anatolia.

[Peterski]

Even in your own report it specifies deportations to Anatolia.

Slavic-speaking populations still existed in the Peloponnesus as late as the 13th century. There was a thread on this forum about Peloponnesian Slavs vs. Latin crusaders in the 1200s. It says that Slavs were the only part of Peloponnesians who remained loyal to the Byzantine Emperor when Latin crusaders invaded.

Edit: I found it, this thread - http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece

There are accounts from the 1400s saying about Slavic-speakers in the Peloponnesus. It was in the 1400s or in the 1500s when the last Peloponnesian Slavs were Hellenized and started speaking Greek.

[catgeorge]

Slavic-speaking populations still existed in Peloponnesus as late as the 13th century.

There was a thread on this forum about Greek Slavs vs. Latin crusaders in the 1200s. How Slavs were the only part of Peloponnesians who remained loyal to the Emperor when Latin crusaders invaded.

I am aware deportations of Slavs to Asia Minor was carried out for five centuries between late 7th century to early 13th.

[Peterski]

In 1438-1439 Byzantine traveller - Lascaris Cananus - visited the area of Lübeck (Λούπηκ) and wrote that the area near Lübeck was called Slavonia (Σθλαβουνία) and that its inhabitants - Wends - spoke a very similar language as Zygiotai (Ζυγιῶται), also known as Melingoi, who lived near the Taygetos Mountains.

So even in 1438-1439 Slavic was still spoken in some parts of the Peloponnesus.

Taygetos Mountains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taygetus

[nightrider+]

It is possible that Slavs had a higher immunity to plague than Non-Slavic populations.

Probably has something to do with being less civilized/urbanized.

[Peterski]

I am aware deportations of Slavs to Asia Minor

Yes but they were deported from various parts of the Balkans, nut just from Greece.

And of course only some thousands were deported. Not entire Slavic population.

The most famous Anatolian-born ethnic Slav was probably Thomas the Slav:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Slav

[catgeorge]

Yes but they were deported from various parts of the Balkans, nut just from Greece.

And of course only some thousands were deported. Not entire Slavic population.

The most famous Anatolian-born ethnic Slav was probably Thomas the Slav:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Slav

Hundreds of thousands were deported. over 350,000 were deported in 8th century and when Serbs and Hungarians warred against Byzantines in 11th century the whole lot of them were deported. Every battle they lost resulted in mass deportations.

[Scholarios]

Hundreds of thousands were deported. over 350,000 were deported in 8th century and when Serbs and Hungarians warred against Byzantines in 11th century the whole lot of them were deported. Every battle they lost resulted in mass deportations.

The "whole lot " werent deported, or else there wouldnt be melingi living near Sparta in the 15th Century, nor would Macedonia be 35% Slavic-speakers in 1910.

[Coolguy1]

The "whole lot " werent deported, or else there wouldnt be melingi living near Sparta in the 15th Century, nor would Macedonia be 35% Slavic-speakers in 1910.

The most plausible theory is that by the time they reached Greece, they were genetically balkanized, Slavic speakers of balkan origin. Pair this with substantial deportation and recolonization and today the shared ancestry between Peloponnesians and Slavs varies from almost 0% to around 14%. Yet shared ancestry between Peloponnesians and southern Italians amounts to a whopping 95%.

We have to remember that these Slavic tribes did not live in proper villages, they lived in small communes consisting from 5-15 families. When Greeks were brought from other regions to repopulate the land, they adopted these microtoponyms that were mostly preserved by shepherds. There is a village called Poliani near the Lakonian/Messinian border, it was founded in 17th or 18th century by Maniates yet by that time the Slavs had already disappeared.

[Sikeliot]

The most plausible theory is that by the time they reached Greece, they were genetically balkanized, Slavic speakers of balkan origin. Pair this with substantial deportation and recolonization and today the shared ancestry between Peloponnesians and Slavs varies from almost 0% to around 14%. Yet shared ancestry between Peloponnesians and southern Italians amounts to a whopping 95%.

I would have wanted to see IBD between Peloponnesians and Bulgarians. It must be low, because there is no way Bulgarian-Sicilian would match highly with one another for instance.

[Coolguy1]

I would have wanted to see IBD between Peloponnesians and Bulgarians. It must be low, because there is no way Bulgarian-Sicilian would match highly with one another for instance.

Who knows, IBD analysis is an interesting thing. Peloponnesians share an astonishing 60% of their ancestry with Iberians, yet there has never been any extensive contact between the two populations. It could be that they both descend primarily from a common neolithic stock, and the bond between the two is ancient.

IBD and autosomal plots seem to be fundamentally different and its important to distinguish between the two. PCA plots can be used to fill in certain gaps for sure, but they dont paint the full picture. The son of an English father and Nigerian mother will in no way plot next to other English people, but he still would share 50% of his ancestry with them.

[catgeorge]

The "whole lot " werent deported, or else there wouldnt be melingi living near Sparta in the 15th Century, nor would Macedonia be 35% Slavic-speakers in 1910.

Oh please - not one slav was reported in Macedonia in 1821.

Its a little complicated - especially after San Stefano and Russia showering Bulgaria with gifts with the Excharte.

Little do you know.

[Scholarios]

Oh please - not one slav was reported in Macedonia in 1821.

Its a little complicated - especially after San Stefano and Russia showering Bulgaria with gifts with the Excharte.

Little do you know.

Ha you mean before the formation of the Bulgarian exarchate there were no Bulgarians in Macedonia? You're delusional. Probably you're more delusional than Hellenas. I assume from this behaviour at least part of your family comes from one of the indigenous Bulgar villages. Even the Greek villages up there have Bulgar names and celebrate Koleda. It was South Slav territory from the Churches to the clothing.

[catgeorge]

Ha you mean before the formation of the Bulgarian exarchate there were no Bulgarians in Macedonia? You're delusional. Probably you're more delusional than Hellenas. I assume from this behaviour at least part of your family comes from one of the indigenous Bulgar villages. Even the Greek villages up there have Bulgar names and celebrate Koleda. It was South Slav territory from the Churches to the clothing.

You continue to be stupid.

Greeks lost the battle in Macedonia (no slavs were reported have to repeat it - as your thought process is not very good)

Majority of Ottoman army was in Salnik Vilayet not in Peloponessos. When the battle was lost much slaughter took place and Jews joined in as they were afraid they will lose their commercial rights.

All the Macedonian lowlands like Naoussa and Pella became completely depopulated and even areas like Florina and Monastiri.

San Stefano was signed and Excharte was created

Then Russians got involved recorded by Greek, Turkish, and Foreign travellers.

There was population movement of slav peasants by Russians specifically Ignatiev ambassador to Contantinople into the Balkans to repopulate to fight Austrians and Turks but they came in the 1880-1890s


“[In Macedonia] Bulgarian Bishops, under Russian protection, are still able to plan brigand bands to raid Greek villages, under the noses of the reform officers, and Greek organize rival bands to defend themselves. And while Austria subsidizes Albanian Beys in Kosovo Vilayet, Russian officers ride round Greek villages and swear they shall have no help unless they say they are Bulgar.”
-Edith Durham, ‘The Burden of the Balkans’ (1905), p 102.

Russian Tsar Nikolaos in 1854, while addressing to the British Ambassador of Petroupolis, Hamilton Seymour: “A strong Greek kingdom or Greek nation is against the interests of Russia’s southern gates”

Tsar Nikolaos had given his ambassador in Constantinople, Ignatiev, the order: “Not a span of earth to Greece”

I am sorry if your marxist wetdreams is hard for you to stomach within your insular microcephalic African head. So lets recap

1 - Greeks lost against Ottomans in Macedonia in 1821
2- No slavs were reported in Macedonia in 1821
3- Ottomans slaughtered much of Greek population after failed uprising
4. Jews and Turks slaughtered the Greeks of Naoussa, Pella, Florina, Stiatista in the 1850s so Jews can maintain their commercial rights
5. Russians wanted Constantinople and wanted to capture the Aegean Sea from Turks- this policy is in black and white but in a pan-slavic twist
7. In 1850s after Turks and Jews slaughtered some 20% of the Greek population left pockets of unpopulated and deserted areas (still no slavs were reported)
8. Russians under Tsar Nicholas and Count Ignatiev (ambassador to Constantinople) population movements to Rumelia (and especially deserted and unpopulted pockets) most likely from Ukraine in the 1860's.. they were the mainstay of modern Bulgaria
9. San Stefano was signed in 1870s with Excharte by the monies of Russia
10. Russian soldiers riding from Greek village to Greek village "YOU WILL GET NO HELP UNLESS YOU SAY YOU ARE BULGAR"

Bulgars back then were no Russians they were peasants.. from there and like *magic* Bulgarian schools started appearing everywhere enforcing panslavism in the area with the help of recent population momvement arrivals from Ukrained in the 1860-1880s

[Laberia]

I am aware deportations of Slavs to Asia Minor was carried out for five centuries between late 7th century to early 13th.

No, the deportation started after the uprising of Patras where slavs collaborated with the Arab fleet. Was the classic uprising of the countryside against a roman city. And this happened after the plague of VIII century. The question is who has replaced these Slavs?

[catgeorge]

No, the deportation started after the uprising of Patras where slavs collaborated with the Arab fleet. Was the classic uprising of the countryside against a roman city. And this happened after the plague of VIII century. The question is who has replaced these Slavs?

Why did they have to be replaced? They just left.

[Scholarios]

You continue to be stupid.

Greeks lost the battle in Macedonia (no slavs were reported have to repeat it - as your thought process is not very good)

Majority of Ottoman army was in Salnik Vilayet not in Peloponessos. When the battle was lost much slaughter took place and Jews joined in as they were afraid they will lose their commercial rights.

All the Macedonian lowlands like Naoussa and Pella became completely depopulated and even areas like Florina and Monastiri.

San Stefano was signed and Excharte was created

Then Russians got involved recorded by Greek, Turkish, and Foreign travellers.

There was population movement of slav peasants by Russians specifically Ignatiev ambassador to Contantinople into the Balkans to repopulate to fight Austrians and Turks but they came in the 1880-1890s



Russian Tsar Nikolaos in 1854, while addressing to the British Ambassador of Petroupolis, Hamilton Seymour: “A strong Greek kingdom or Greek nation is against the interests of Russia’s southern gates”

Tsar Nikolaos had given his ambassador in Constantinople, Ignatiev, the order: “Not a span of earth to Greece”

I am sorry if your marxist wetdreams is hard for you to stomach within your insular microcephalic African head. So lets recap

1 - Greeks lost against Ottomans in Macedonia in 1821
2- No slavs were reported in Macedonia in 1821
3- Ottomans slaughtered much of Greek population after failed uprising
4. Jews and Turks slaughtered the Greeks of Naoussa, Pella, Florina, Stiatista in the 1850s so Jews can maintain their commercial rights
5. Russians wanted Constantinople and wanted to capture the Aegean Sea from Turks- this policy is in black and white but in a pan-slavic twist
7. In 1850s after Turks and Jews slaughtered some 20% of the Greek population left pockets of unpopulated and deserted areas (still no slavs were reported)
8. Russians under Tsar Nicholas and Count Ignatiev (ambassador to Constantinople) population movements to Rumelia (and especially deserted and unpopulted pockets) most likely from Ukraine in the 1860's.. they were the mainstay of modern Bulgaria
9. San Stefano was signed in 1870s with Excharte by the monies of Russia
10. Russian soldiers riding from Greek village to Greek village "YOU WILL GET NO HELP UNLESS YOU SAY YOU ARE BULGAR"

Bulgars back then were no Russians they were peasants.. from there and like *magic* Bulgarian schools started appearing everywhere enforcing panslavism in the area with the help of recent population momvement arrivals from Ukrained in the 1860-1880s

Complete nonsense from start to finish. Who the fuck was going to "report" Slavs? What does that even mean? The Ottomans didn't report ethnicity, but religion. So there were no "Bulgarians" since their church didn't exist yet. But we do know there were Slav-speakers, since in 1821 we know Gatsos of Sarikonovo from Pella was a Slav fighting for Greece. Then we know that in 1929 we changed a few hundred toponyms there. Further back we know Cyril and Methodios were speaking pure Slavic in the Middle Ages.


For you are both Thessalonians and all Thessalonians speak pure Slavic."
-Emperor Michael, Vita Methodii

"Bulgarian schools" were a tool of Balkan nationalism, which couldnt exist before nationalism. It's same with Greeks schools, were there no Greek-speakers or Greek culture before the first Greek schools in the 18th Century?

Nothing marxist about any of this.

[catgeorge]

Complete nonsense from start to finish. Who the fuck was going to "report" Slavs? What does that even mean? The Ottomans didn't report ethnicity, but religion. So there were no "Bulgarians" since their church didn't exist yet. But we do know there were Slav-speakers, since in 1821 we know Gatsos of Sarikonovo from Pella was a Slav fighting for Greece. Then we know that in 1929 we changed a few hundred toponyms there. Further back we know Cyril and Methodios were speaking pure Slavic in the Middle Ages.

."
-Emperor Michael, Vita Methodii

"Bulgarian schools" were a tool of Balkan nationalism, which couldnt exist before nationalism. It's same with Greeks schools, were there no Greek-speakers or Greek culture before the first Greek schools in the 18th Century?

Nothing marxist about any of this.

Mate you need to read some history books - marxist. I will repeat again - no slav was reported in Macedonia in 1821 uprising. Bulgars were yes but they were a complete minority but no "Slavs".

[Laberia]

Why did they have to be replaced? They just left.Because there was a decline of population in the country. A part of the population died during the plague. Pretty much a big part of the Slavic population living outside the city walls was sent to Asia Minor. The Byzantines were not interested in having a country like Greece empty and without a population. And of course, they didn't care to much about the ethnic purity of Greece. If there were remained some Greeks, they were exterminated during the invasion of Greece by Slavs long time ago. And you know very well that they have replaced these Slavs with other populations from Asia Minor and Sicily, Southern Italy. Certainly not all Slavs have been replaced. This was the situation in Greece after the plague of the eighth century during the Isaurian dynasty.

[catgeorge]

Because there was a decline of population in the country. A part of the population died during the plague. Pretty much a big part of the Slavic population living outside the city walls was sent to Asia Minor. The Byzantines were not interested in having a country like Greece empty and without a population. And of course, they didn't care to much about the ethnic purity of Greece. If there were remained some Greeks, they were exterminated in the invasion of Greece by Slavic. And you know very well that they have replaced these Slavs with other populations from Asia Minor and Sicily, Southern Italy. Certainly not all Slavs have been replaced. This was the situation in Greece after the plague of the eighth century during the Isaurian dynasty.

Dreams are free - can you point where Albania was in 11th century please and where did this population decline occur?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Byzantine_Empire_Themes_1025-en.svg

[Scholarios]

Mate you need to read some history books - marxist. I will repeat again - no slav was reported in Macedonia in 1821 uprising. Bulgars were yes but they were a complete minority but no "Slavs".

There also were no Slavs reported in Skopje, because Slav was not a demographic reported by anyone anywhere. Forget what Papou told you. What kind of nonsense is this "Buglars" were a complete minority"? What's the difference between a "Bulgar" and a "Slav". There were no "Bulgars" there yet, because "Bulgarian" didn't exist yet as a demographic until the founding of the Excharchate in 1871. Then there were Slav-speaking members of the Exharchate and Slav-speaking members of the Patriarchate... counted by you, I suppose as "Slavophone Greeks" or something. If the Bulgarians arrived in 19th Century, why the hell Vonditza has a Bulgarian name in the 13th Century? Or why did John Apokaukos and George Bardanes call Grevena in Macedonia as "Barbarous and Bulgarian-speaking" in 1220AD? (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=3zXFCs9EfEYC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=john+apokaukos+grevena&source=bl&ots=rM2K-9qd5F&sig=8kDQWCAlTlK7sQfPS1U9B9cnaeI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHnabVqu_SAhUMf7wKHVPhAUkQ6AEIITAB#v=on epage&q=john%20apokaukos%20grevena&f=false)

What could it all mean? I wonder...



Because there was a decline of population in the country. A part of the population died during the plague. Pretty much a big part of the Slavic population living outside the city walls was sent to Asia Minor. The Byzantines were not interested in having a country like Greece empty and without a population. And of course, they didn't care to much about the ethnic purity of Greece. If there were remained some Greeks, they were exterminated during the invasion of Greece by Slavs long time ago. And you know very well that they have replaced these Slavs with other populations from Asia Minor and Sicily, Southern Italy. Certainly not all Slavs have been replaced. This was the situation in Greece after the plague of the eighth century during the Isaurian dynasty.


Good. Now apply this same logic to Epirus Nova and Epirus Vetus (i.e. South and Central Albania) as it is mentioned in the same sources which discussed the conquering of the Peloponnese by Slavs. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=_b5BDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT273&lpg=PT273&dq=slavs+peloponnese+epirus&source=bl&ots=Mukj6oP_At&sig=kucT_NTGaYgQAIsUHm9uwpMmcaM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj604_Eq-_SAhUKurwKHddDDGAQ6AEISDAH#v=onepage&q=slavs%20peloponnese%20epirus&f=false)

We can guess (and in the case of Peloponnese be reasonably sure) that these areas were not thoroughly slavicized though. But still, the people of Morea and Vagentia have a healthy dose of Slavic influence, genetic and culture.

[Coolguy1]

Because there was a decline of population in the country. A part of the population died during the plague. Pretty much a big part of the Slavic population living outside the city walls was sent to Asia Minor. The Byzantines were not interested in having a country like Greece empty and without a population. And of course, they didn't care to much about the ethnic purity of Greece. If there were remained some Greeks, they were exterminated in the invasion of Greece by Slavic. And you know very well that they have replaced these Slavs with other populations from Asia Minor and Sicily, Southern Italy. Certainly not all Slavs have been replaced. This was the situation in Greece after the plague of the eighth century during the Isaurian dynasty.

The western side was overrun by Slavs, the eastern side was always under Byzantine rule. And yes, many Greeks were brought from Italy and Asia Minor to repopulate places like Patras.

According to the Chronicle of Monemvasia, in 805 the Byzantine governor of Corinth went to war with the Slavs, exterminated them, and allowed the original inhabitants to claim their own lands. They regained control of the city of Patras and the region was re-settled with Greeks. Many Slavs were transported to Asia Minor, and many Asian, Sicilian and Calabrian Greeks were resettled in the Peloponnese. The entire peninsula was formed into the new thema of Peloponnesos, with its capital at Corinth.

[catgeorge]

There also were no Slavs reported in Skopje, because Slav was not a demographic reported by anyone anywhere. Forget what Papou told you. What kind of nonsense is this "Buglars" were a complete minority"? What's the difference between a "Bulgar" and a "Slav". There were no "Bulgars" there yet, because "Bulgarian" didn't exist yet as a demographic until the founding of the Excharchate in 1871. Then there were Slav-speaking members of the Exharchate and Slav-speaking members of the Patriarchate... counted by you, I suppose as "Slavophone Greeks" or something. If the Bulgarians arrived in 19th Century, why the hell Vonditza has a Bulgarian name in the 13th Century? Or why did John Apokaukos and George Bardanes call Grevena in Macedonia as "Barbarous and Bulgarian-speaking" in 1220AD? (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=3zXFCs9EfEYC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=john+apokaukos+grevena&source=bl&ots=rM2K-9qd5F&sig=8kDQWCAlTlK7sQfPS1U9B9cnaeI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHnabVqu_SAhUMf7wKHVPhAUkQ6AEIITAB#v=on epage&q=john%20apokaukos%20grevena&f=false)

What could it all mean? I wonder...

lol... ok I know about 1220 AD - I am saying about the Greek uprising in Macedonia in 1821

[Laberia]

Dreams are free - can you point where Albania was in 11th century please and where did this population decline occur?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Byzantine_Empire_Themes_1025-en.svg

This discussion is not about Albania. Come on, is comon knowledge in Greece. An average greek know very well that ancient greeks were wiped by slavs. Byzantines replaced this slavs with populations from Asia Minor. Every Greek know this, only the Greeks who discuss in forums don't know this.

[Scholarios]

lol... ok I know about 1220 AD - I am saying about the Greek uprising in Macedonia in 1821

So there were Slavs there in 700 AD, 1000 AD, 1220 AD, and 1912 AD. But they disappeared and reappeared between 1300 and 1821 I guess? Whatevs.



This discussion is not about Albania. Come on, is comon knowledge in Greece. An average greek know very well that ancient greeks were wiped by slavs. Byzantines replaced this slavs with populations from Asia Minor. Every Greek know this, only the Greeks who discuss in forums don't know this.


They also settled Mardaites in Epirus. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=aKEkDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=mardaites+epirus&source=bl&ots=FYKT12ane2&sig=GadppPCA4HxnudN7Qn0V8jLVdWo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1g4X0rO_SAhWIf7wKHTL3AikQ6AEINTAF#v=on epage&q=mardaites%20epirus&f=false)

[catgeorge]

This discussion is not about Albania. Come on, is comon knowledge in Greece. An average greek know very well that ancient greeks were wiped by slavs. Byzantines replaced this slavs with populations from Asia Minor. Every Greek know this, only the Greeks who discuss in forums don't know this.

Slavs lost every battle except the Bulgarian empire where they held Byzantine lands for 20 years until Bulgarotoknos completely annhialted them - so on this principle the slavs were not capable to wipe out the Byzantines at this time.

[Laberia]

The western side was overrun by Slavs, the eastern side was always under Byzantine rule. And yes, many Greeks were brought from Italy and Asia Minor to repopulate places like Patras.

According to the Chronicle of Monemvasia, in 805 the Byzantine governor of Corinth went to war with the Slavs, exterminated them, and allowed the original inhabitants to claim their own lands. They regained control of the city of Patras and the region was re-settled with Greeks. Many Slavs were transported to Asia Minor, and many Asian, Sicilian and Calabrian Greeks were resettled in the Peloponnese. The entire peninsula was formed into the new thema of Peloponnesos, with its capital at Corinth.

Do you have read this famous study?

Our results reject the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers.

[Coolguy1]

Do you have read this famous study?

Where have I said that the Greek population was exterminated? Go back and read clearly, the western side recieved Slavs.

[Laberia]

Slavs lost every battle except the Bulgarian empire where they held Byzantine lands for 20 years until Bulgarotoknos completely annhialted them - so on this principle the slavs were not capable to wipe out the Byzantines at this time.

Catgeorge, Byzantines left Balkans at the mercy of slavs. They closed the Gates of the City and continued their life. After two centuries when Empire decided to restore the authority in Balkans, many things has changed.

[Laberia]

Where have I said that the Greek population was exterminated? Go back and read clearly, the western side recieved Slavs.

I quoted the study. This scholars don't accept this slavic invasion and the replacement of this slavs with populations from Asia Minor.

[catgeorge]

So there were Slavs there in 700 AD, 1000 AD, 1220 AD, and 1912 AD. But they disappeared and reappeared between 1300 and 1821 I guess? Whatevs.

Whatevs kse-whatevs they werent even in Ochrida nor Adrianople

Krusevo and Prilep what we know it was Patriarchate bi lingual Vlach in the 40% of the population that did not neeld one centimeter to Bulgars, Serbs nor Romanians

Do you like old photos because these Patriarchates of Krushevo and Prilep do not look very Slavic

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Ethnic_Greeks_of_Krusevo.JPG

[Coolguy1]

I quoted the study. This scholars don't accept this slavic invasion and the replacement of this slavs with populations from Asia Minor.

You havent read the study. The study shows that Peloponnesians and Slavs can share from almost 0% to 14% of their ancestry with Russians, Ukrianians, Belarussians, depending on which region.

[Laberia]

You havent read the study. The study shows that Peloponnesians and Slavs can share from almost 0% to 14% of their ancestry with Russians, Ukrianians, Belarussians, depending on which region.

I don't care much about percentages. I have no doubts that this authors have designed some beautiful graphics. I quoted you the RESULTS of the study. Now the options are two:
1) According to historians, there was an slavic invasion. Some support that ancient greeks were replaced and some don't support this definitiv annihilation of greeks. Also, both this historians accept that Byzantines replaced part of this slavs with populations from Asia.
2) According to this study there was not an slavic invasion of Greece and a replacement of this slavs with populations from Asia Minor.
You have to decide.

[Sikeliot]

Also worth noting in the study: "Deep Mani" and the other far southern Peloponnesians ONLY overlap with Sicilians, outside of Greece.

Not islanders, not Anatolian Greeks.

Which means that they are not part of an East Med cline toward the islands, but islanders would overlap with Sicilians that do not overlap with Mani.

If we take these isolated Greeks to be the purest ones, then they were never like islanders on the mainland.

[Coolguy1]

I don't care much about percentages. I have no doubts that this authors have designed some beautiful graphics. I quoted you the RESULTS of the study. Now the options are two:
1) According to historians, there was an slavic invasion. Some support that ancient greeks were replaced and some don't support this definitiv annihilation of greeks. Also, both this historians accept that Byzantines replaced part of this slavs with populations from Asia.
2) According to this study there was not an slavic invasion of Greece and a replacement of this slavs with populations from Asia Minor.
You have to decide.

Laberia, if you want to have a conversation about a study then it is important that you read it first. The results from this study show that there is some Slavic ancestry in Peloponnesians, but that it is very minimal. The majority of Slavs, were killed and deported, the rest had to be assimilated. This is no big deal, every nation has blood from other people. Even 20% of Albanians have either r1a or i2a. Peloponnesians are much, much closer to southern Italians than to Slavs. This is not a surprise to anyone, southern Italy and Sicily were filled with Greeks even in the medieval period.

You claim that the study says that there was not a slavic invasion of Greece, what the study actually said was this:

Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population.

[Coolguy1]

Our analysis of the genetic ancestry of the Peloponnesean populations and their relationships with the Slavs and other Europeans settles a historical controversy that has persisted for over 170 years. This controversy illustrates the problems historians face in their efforts to reconstruct population history on the basis of inadequate written sources. Fallmerayer based his theory of extinction of the medieval Peloponnesean Greeks on the writings of few early and two middle-medieval Byzantine authors. The early sources were very short comments in texts of 6th and 7th century historians and ecclesiastic authors.9 The middle-medieval documents were a letter by an eleventh century Patriarch of Constantinople and the writings of tenth century Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus. Fallmerayer’s theory created sensation among historians. An early rebuttal was published by the Greek historian Paparrigopoulos27 who examined the same sources Fallmerayer have used to construct his theory and reached different conclusions, that is, that the Slavs did not reach the Greek proper during the sixth century and, when they arrived, they did not slaughter the local population. The many historians who have contributed to the very extensive literature on this topic during the last century (partially summarized in Curta10 and Zakythenos28) usually either accept or reject the theory of extinction of the Peloponnesean Greeks. It seems that personal philosophies influence the historians’ judgment. Fallmerayer was an educator and journalist turned historian, a liberal intellectual for his time and a slavophobe who feared the increasing influence of Russia in the Balkans at the expense of the Ottoman Empire. Paparrigopoulos was a Greek historian who was promoting the idea of the continuity of the Greek ethnicity during the medieval period. The findings of our study settle these issues and provide a direct test of the theory of the extinction of the medieval Peloponnesean Greeks. It is clear that the Slavs settled in Peloponnese, as the quantitative measurements of Slavic ancestry indicate (Tables 2 and 3). It also seems that their numbers were relatively small compared to the size of the local population as the low levels of Slavic ancestry of the Peloponnesean populations indicate.

[Laberia]

Laberia, if you want to have a conversation about a study then it is important that you read it first. The results from this study show that there is some Slavic ancestry in Peloponnesians, but that it is very minimal. The majority of Slavs, were killed and deported, the rest had to be assimilated. This is no big deal, every nation has blood from other people. Even 20% of Albanians have either r1a or i2a. Peloponnesians are much, much closer to southern Italians than to Slavs. This is not a surprise to anyone, southern Italy and Sicily were filled with Greeks even in the medieval period.

You claim that the study says that there was not a slavic invasion of Greece, what the study actually said was this:

Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population.

I was very clear. Your post is just spam. Nothing to add.

[Coolguy1]

I was very clear. Your post is just spam. Nothing to add.

I cant help you if you are an ignorant moron. You havent even read the study.

[wvwvw]

The Slavs were never substantially many to replace even a part of Peloponnesus population, let alone totally replace it like a certain racist bigot claimed. Greeks were by far, the most populous nation in antiquity and medieval times. Byzantines never ceased to have the upper hand at all times. Claiming they replaced the Greek population is truly ludicrous.

[Sikeliot]

Laberia, if you want to have a conversation about a study then it is important that you read it first. The results from this study show that there is some Slavic ancestry in Peloponnesians, but that it is very minimal. The majority of Slavs, were killed and deported, the rest had to be assimilated. This is no big deal, every nation has blood from other people. Even 20% of Albanians have either r1a or i2a. Peloponnesians are much, much closer to southern Italians than to Slavs. This is not a surprise to anyone, southern Italy and Sicily were filled with Greeks even in the medieval period.


Based on a study posted by Thevillager, which detected present, but weaker than expected, genetic impact from ancient times, my guess is that most of the Greek ancestry in southern Italians is from the Byzantine era, or later. The study found ancient Greek ancestry to only be strong in Sicily but not so much on the mainland.

[wvwvw]

Based on a study posted by Thevillager, which detected present, but weaker than expected, genetic impact from ancient times, my guess is that most of the Greek ancestry in southern Italians is from the Byzantine era, or later. The study found ancient Greek ancestry to only be strong in Sicily but not so much on the mainland.

And the ancestry of Byzantines is from Classical Era.

[Laberia]

I cant help you if you are an ignorant moron. You havent even read the study.

Do you have read my post? Let me repeat again:

I don't care much about percentages. I have no doubts that this authors have designed some beautiful graphics. I quoted you the RESULTS of the study. Now the options are two:
1) According to historians, there was an slavic invasion. Some support that ancient greeks were replaced and some don't support this definitiv annihilation of greeks. Also, both this historians accept that Byzantines replaced part of this slavs with populations from Asia.
2) According to this study there was not an slavic invasion of Greece and a replacement of this slavs with populations from Asia Minor.
You have to decide.


What you have decided?

[Sikeliot]

What is clear is, the ancestry in Sicily can be modeled as a large majority Greek, plus a MENA component. Not sure if this is coincidental, or based on their actual admixture.

And this is true even in regions that did not have large Greek settlement. See this person from Caltanissetta:

# Population Percent
1 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 29.25
2 SW_Asian 23.23
3 WHG 19.94
4 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 19.17
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 5.72
6 W_African 1.45
7 Siberian_E_Asian 0.73
8 Ancestral_South_Indian 0.36
9 SE_Asian 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Maltese 4
2 Sicilian 4.31
3 Greek 8.24
4 Albanian 10.08
5 Tuscan 10.78
6 Cypriot 13.81
7 Turkish 14.92
8 Bulgarian 16.29
9 Lebanese 18.26
10 Druze 19.63
11 Syrian 20.04
12 Jordanian 20.41
13 Spanish 20.91
14 Kumyk 21.18
15 Armenian 21.51
16 Adygei 21.69
17 Georgian_Jew 22.57
18 Iraqi_Jew 22.99
19 Azeri 23.13
20 Chechen 23.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.5% Albanian + 35.5% Lebanese @ 1.07
2 67.1% Albanian + 32.9% Jordanian @ 1.28
3 77% Greek + 23% BedouinA @ 1.4
4 66.8% Albanian + 33.2% Syrian @ 1.6
5 81.7% Greek + 18.3% Yemenite_Jew @ 1.83
6 71.7% Greek + 28.3% Jordanian @ 1.94
7 66.4% Albanian + 33.6% Druze @ 2.02
8 88.7% Maltese + 11.3% Lezgin @ 2.17
9 63.2% Tuscan + 36.8% Lebanese @ 2.2
10 65.8% Tuscan + 34.2% Jordanian @ 2.21
11 87.6% Maltese + 12.4% Chechen @ 2.23
12 65.4% Tuscan + 34.6% Syrian @ 2.25
13 86.4% Maltese + 13.6% Kumyk @ 2.26
14 88.8% Maltese + 11.2% Azeri_Dagestan @ 2.36
15 69.6% Greek + 30.4% Lebanese @ 2.36
16 80.2% Greek + 19.8% Yemen @ 2.37
17 70% Albanian + 30% Iraqi_Jew @ 2.38
18 87.1% Maltese + 12.9% Adygei @ 2.41
19 71.7% Greek + 28.3% Syrian @ 2.43
20 92% Maltese + 8% Tajik_Pomiri @ 2.49

[catgeorge]

Do you have read my post? Let me repeat again:



What you have decided?


Laberia I have personally decided this is you as you make no sense like Erdogan doesnt make sense


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc1MZ2T82yQ

[Coolguy1]

Do you have read my post? Let me repeat again:



What you have decided?

You are making a fool out of yourself once again. Do you honestly think you sound smart or witty right now?

That question cannot be answered because both statements are false.

1. No Greeks plots near Slavs genetically, we are closest to southern Italians

2. What you have written is wrong The authors of the study never claimed there was no slavic settlement of Greece, there is slavic ancestry in Greeks, its minimal



Your reputability diminishes day by day

[Tacitus]

Based on a study posted by Thevillager, which detected present, but weaker than expected, genetic impact from ancient times, my guess is that most of the Greek ancestry in southern Italians is from the Byzantine era, or later. The study found ancient Greek ancestry to only be strong in Sicily but not so much on the mainland.

And even then those Byzantine Greeks settled mostly in Calabria, Puglia, and to a lesser extent Sicily. The genetic sharing between southern Italians and Greeks probably stretches back further, before the Middle Ages and antiquity, going into the prehistoric era (Neolithic and Bronze Age), before such ethnonyms existed.

[catgeorge]

What is clear is, the ancestry in Sicily can be modeled as a large majority Greek, plus a MENA component. Not sure if this is coincidental, or based on their actual admixture.

And this is true even in regions that did not have large Greek settlement. See this person from Caltanissetta:

# Population Percent
1 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 29.25
2 SW_Asian 23.23
3 WHG 19.94
4 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 19.17
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 5.72
6 W_African 1.45
7 Siberian_E_Asian 0.73
8 Ancestral_South_Indian 0.36
9 SE_Asian 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Maltese 4
2 Sicilian 4.31
3 Greek 8.24
4 Albanian 10.08
5 Tuscan 10.78
6 Cypriot 13.81
7 Turkish 14.92
8 Bulgarian 16.29
9 Lebanese 18.26
10 Druze 19.63
11 Syrian 20.04
12 Jordanian 20.41
13 Spanish 20.91
14 Kumyk 21.18
15 Armenian 21.51
16 Adygei 21.69
17 Georgian_Jew 22.57
18 Iraqi_Jew 22.99
19 Azeri 23.13
20 Chechen 23.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.5% Albanian + 35.5% Lebanese @ 1.07
2 67.1% Albanian + 32.9% Jordanian @ 1.28
3 77% Greek + 23% BedouinA @ 1.4
4 66.8% Albanian + 33.2% Syrian @ 1.6
5 81.7% Greek + 18.3% Yemenite_Jew @ 1.83
6 71.7% Greek + 28.3% Jordanian @ 1.94
7 66.4% Albanian + 33.6% Druze @ 2.02
8 88.7% Maltese + 11.3% Lezgin @ 2.17
9 63.2% Tuscan + 36.8% Lebanese @ 2.2
10 65.8% Tuscan + 34.2% Jordanian @ 2.21
11 87.6% Maltese + 12.4% Chechen @ 2.23
12 65.4% Tuscan + 34.6% Syrian @ 2.25
13 86.4% Maltese + 13.6% Kumyk @ 2.26
14 88.8% Maltese + 11.2% Azeri_Dagestan @ 2.36
15 69.6% Greek + 30.4% Lebanese @ 2.36
16 80.2% Greek + 19.8% Yemen @ 2.37
17 70% Albanian + 30% Iraqi_Jew @ 2.38
18 87.1% Maltese + 12.9% Adygei @ 2.41
19 71.7% Greek + 28.3% Syrian @ 2.43
20 92% Maltese + 8% Tajik_Pomiri @ 2.49


means close to nothing and an over exaggeration of meaningless results just the basis of this is completely irrelevant as data you present here is utterly over exaggerated and useless/

[Sikeliot]

1. No Greeks plots near Slavs genetically, we are closest to southern Italians

If you count Bulgarians, this is no longer true. Some Greeks do, in fact, plot nearer to Bulgarians than to southern Italians. Probably much of the mainland does.

[Sikeliot]

And even then those Byzantine Greeks settled mostly in Calabria, Puglia, and to a lesser extent Sicily. The genetic sharing between southern Italians and Greeks probably stretches back further, before the Middle Ages and antiquity, going into the prehistoric era (Neolithic and Bronze Age), before such ethnonyms existed.

What makes most sense to me is the pre-Greek southern Italians were similar to the indigenous people of the Aegean islands.

[Sikeliot]

means close to nothing and an over exaggeration of meaningless results just the basis of this is completely irrelevant as data you present here is utterly over exaggerated and useless/

If it means nothing to you then you did not understand my point.

[Coolguy1]

If you count Bulgarians, this is no longer true. Some Greeks do, in fact, plot nearer to Bulgarians than to southern Italians. Probably much of the mainland does.

Im talking about original Slavs, Russians, Ukrainians, Polish etc

[Laberia]

You are making a fool out of yourself once again. Do you honestly think you sound smart or witty right now?

That question cannot be answered because both statements are false.

1. No Greeks plots near Slavs genetically, we are closest to southern Italians

2. What you have written is wrong The authors of the study never claimed there was no slavic settlement of Greece, there is slavic ancestry in Greeks, its minimal



Your reputability diminishes day by day

This are the results of the study:

Our results reject the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers.

[Sikeliot]

Im talking about original Slavs, Russians, Ukrainians, Polish etc

Well by that standard, Bulgarians are also closer to southern Italians than to Russians, I am fairly sure.

[Coolguy1]

This are the results of the study:

They said was that the native Greeks were never exterminated, they mixed with Slavs minimally.

[Scholarios]

Laberia just don't know English well enough for these discussions. He really should bow out.

[Laberia]

They said was that the native Greeks were never exterminated, they mixed with Slavs minimally.

.... and Asia Minor settlers.

[Coolguy1]

.... and Asia Minor settlers.

Greeks from Asia Minor. Whats the problem? Why do you care so much?

[Laberia]

Greeks from Asia Minor. Whats the problem? Why do you care so much?

The authors don't accept that Byzantines replaced slavs with populations from Asia Minor. If we accept this conclusion, then we have to conclude that there was not an slavic invasion. It's so difficult to understand? Cause and effect.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Behind this study I'm pretty sure there's hidden agenda playing out.

[Coolguy1]

The authors don't accept that Byzantines replaced slavs with populations from Asia Minor. If we accept this conclusion, then we have to conclude that there was not an slavic invasion. It's so difficult to understand. Cause and effect.

They didnt say that there was no Asian Minor migration, they said that Peloponnesian Greeks and Asia Minor Greeks are similar but have some differences, hinting that Anatolian Greek migration was minimal.

[Coolguy1]

Behind this study I'm pretty sure there's hidden agenda playing out.

Its a peer reviewed academic journal, published on the biggest genetic resource database.

What part of it dont you like? that you think is biased?

[Laberia]

They didnt say that there was no Asian Minor migration, they said that Peloponnesian Greeks and Asia Minor Greeks are similar but have some differences, hinting that Anatolian Greek migration was minimal.

Stop playing the idiot here. How many times i have to post the results?

[catgeorge]

Its a peer reviewed academic journal, published on the biggest genetic resource database.

What part of it dont you like? that you think is biased?

Even conspiracy is a Greek word for Goyim.. but he could be right -- you see.

Con-Spiro-cy.

[Coolguy1]

Stop playing the idiot here. How many times i have to post the results?

You never posted results, because you never read the study, thats how much of a moron you are.

We tested this hypothesis by comparing the Peloponneseans with three Greek-speaking populations of Asia Minor: a western-coastal population sample extending from the Propontis in the north to Alikarnassos (Bodrum) in the south; a northern population from Pontus, that is, the coast of Black Sea and the Asia Minor interior corresponding to the current northern Turkey; and a central Anatolian population from Cappadocia. All these populations are separated from the Peloponneseans by PCA (Figure 3b). The small degree of overlap between Peloponnese and the population of the Asia Minor coast (Figure 3b) is expected for neighboring Greek populations.

If you are unable to analyze the data yourself then you are an idiot. The two groups are similar yet still distinct.

[catgeorge]

Women from Messinia/Kalamata

https://www.eleftheriaonline.gr/media/k2/items/cache/29772225f959f434eb2791ee376e1aec_XL.jpg

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Its a peer reviewed academic journal, published on the biggest genetic resource database.

What part of it dont you like? that you think is biased?

Downplays evident slavic influence left in Peloponnese, I think their effect was greater than 12% as study suggests.

[nightrider+]

Downplays evident slavic influence left in Peloponnese, I think their effect was greater than 12% as study suggests.

And why would anyone care about what you think? Who are you? What do you have to back this up?

[Laberia]

Behind this study I'm pretty sure there's hidden agenda playing out.

Of course there is an agenda, but this kind of scholars are also ignorants.
Just read the title:

Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks
So, their object of the study is not the slavic presence among the modern inhabitants of Peloponnesus, but if ancient greeks disappeared or not. Someone has to explain to this idiots that ancient greeks disappeared even before the Slavs arrived.

In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed......
This is an classic among the greek "scholars". This people have to forgot for a moment Fallmerayer and concentrate in their work. Fallmerayer said what he have read in old chronicles and what he saw with his eyes when he set foot in Peloponnesus. If you call this country Albania, you give it the right name.
Meanwhile this scholars want to to prove if there was or no an replacement of ancient greeks from Slavs, using as samples Albanians. A typical greek study. Again Albanians have to save Greece.

[Sikeliot]

Women from Messinia/Kalamata

https://www.eleftheriaonline.gr/media/k2/items/cache/29772225f959f434eb2791ee376e1aec_XL.jpg


Dyed blonde woman on far right in second row, and the bottom row second from left actually do look Sicilian.

Some of the others look Iberian.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

And why would anyone care about what you think? Who are you? What do you have to back this up?

You can check up my profile if you're interested to know my TA background.....I'm not convinced since studies like this can be made by anyone and interpret results in the way they want it to push their own theory in front.

You do seems to care since you responded anyways.

[Coolguy1]

You can check up my profile if you're interested to know my TA background.....I'm not convinced since studies like this can be by anyone and interpret results in the way they want it to push their own theory in front.

You do seems to care since you responded anyways.

Id trust what a peer reviewed journal says any day over some antiquated, romantic travellers

[Sikeliot]

Anyway we cannot say whether or not Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarian or Albanian since the latter two WERE NOT in the study. All we know is Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians, and even to Southwest Euros (Iberians, French) than to either NE Europeans or MENAs.

[Scholarios]

So maybe the study is flawed, but these Albanians haven't come up with a precise reason why they think this. I myself am skeptical of the way the findings are portrayed here (peloponnesians have no slavic background because they arent similar to poles and russians). But in fact, Peloponnesians are similar to Bulgarians. Also, Albanians are similar to Bulgarians as well. Bulgarians are more similar to Poles than Peloponnesians are. Greeks and Albanians can interpret that any way they like.

[nightrider+]

You do seems to care since you responded anyways.

Yeah, spam/nothing posts trigger me sometimes.

[Coolguy1]

So maybe the study is flawed, but these Albanians haven't come up with a precise reason why they think this. I myself am skeptical of the way the findings are portrayed here (peloponnesians have no slavic background because they arent similar to poles and russians). But in fact, Peloponnesians are similar to Bulgarians. Also, Albanians are similar to Bulgarians as well. Bulgarians are more similar to Poles than Peloponnesians are. Greeks and Albanians can interpret that any way they like.

The only reason Peloponnesians and Bulgarians are similar is because the latter is still predominantly native genetically. The Slavic migrations started from the core of today's Ukraine and Belarus, which is why these populations were used as proxies.

[Laberia]

Anyway we cannot say whether or not Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarian or Albanian since the latter two WERE NOT in the study. All we know is Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians, and even to Southwest Euros (Iberians, French) than to either NE Europeans or MENAs.

Sikeliot, try to understand what happened in this region and in the whole Greece. First was the plague of Justinian, who changed the course of history of Europe Asia and Africa. Later arrived the Slavs who wiped what was left from the plague. But the life was not easy for this slavs, there was an permanent epidemi for centuries until when the pandemi exploded again in the VIII century. Here is the return of Byzantines. They replaced this slavs with populations from Asia Minor, there was an exchange of populations. Here start a period of relative prosperity for Greece and Peloponnesus. All this until the fourth crusade. The game restarted again. Greece became again the battlefield. From one side the crusaders and other states ruled by westerners. From the other side Byzantines who wanted to recuperate using turkish mercenaries, but later turks started to play their game. From North arrived Tsar Dushan. Wars, famine until the epidemi, The Black Death reappeared and this was the most terrible plague in the history. In this moment start the migration of Albanians in Greece. In one century they composed half of the population of Greece and Peloponnesus was their main objective. What greeks are we talking here?

[Scholarios]

The only reason Peloponnesians and Bulgarians are similar is because the latter is still predominantly native genetically. The Slavic migrations started from the core of today's Ukraine and Belarus, which is why these populations were used as proxies.

The former may be true, though I am not 100% sure that is the only reason. The latter I think may also be a little more complex. For instance, I believe YDNA str testing shows Slavic ydna (r1a m458) matching with Polish samples. (also the Greek I2 does as I have shown a few weeks ago) In addition, I think IBD studies seem to indicate Eastern Europe, including the Balkans seem to share a very large number of common ancestors in the past 1500 years. Maybe this comes to only 5-10% Slavic genetic background in the Morea, not sure. But if the takeaway is that Slavic-speaking Bulgarians who were 50% Thracian , 40% Proto-Slav, and 10% Goth ended up populating sectors of the Peloponese , some people might consider this study splitting hairs.

[catgeorge]

Sikeliot, try to understand what happened in this region and in the whole Greece. First was the plague of Justinian, who changed the course of history of Europe Asia and Africa. Later arrived the Slavs who wiped what was left from the plague. But the life was not easy for this slavs, there was an permanent epidemi for centuries until when the pandemi exploded again in the VIII century. Here is the return of Byzantines. They replaced this slavs with populations from Asia Minor, there was an exchange of populations. Here start a period of relative prosperity for Greece and Peloponnesus. All this until the fourth crusade. The game restarted again. Greece became again the battlefield. From one side the crusaders and other states ruled by westerners. From the other side Byzantines who wanted to recuperate using turkish mercenaries, but later turks started to play their game. From North arrived Tsar Dushan. Wars, famine until the epidemi, The Black Death reappeared and this was the most terrible plague in the history. In this moment start the migration of Albanians in Greece. In one century they composed half of the population of Greece and Peloponnesus was their main objective. What greeks are we talking here?


You and your plagues

It is thought that Zeus struck the Greeks with the Plague in 6th century because they abandoned him (25 million dead)
..and God struck Western Europe with the Black death for the fourth crusade (200 million dead)

[Coolguy1]

The former may be true, though I am not 100% sure that is the only reason. The latter I think may also be a little more complex. For instance, I believe YDNA str testing shows Slavic ydna (r1a m458) matching with Polish samples. (also the Greek I2 does as I have shown a few weeks ago) In addition, I think IBD studies seem to indicate Eastern Europe, including the Balkans seem to share a very large number of common ancestors in the past 1500 years. Maybe this comes to only 5-10% Slavic genetic background in the Morea, not sure. But if the takeaway is that Slavic-speaking Bulgarians who were 50% Thracian , 40% Proto-Slav, and 10% Goth ended up populating sectors of the Peloponese , some people might consider this study splitting hairs.

One important thing to note is that according to the study. Peloponnesians and southern Italians share nearly 95% of their ancestry on average, which means that the former contain the majority of the Greek profile. If the same study were to be done on southern Italians, no doubt Slavic population will pop up as sharing ancestry with them, albeit to a smaller extent than Greeks. Another important note is that the ancestry shared with Slavs seems to be much older than that shared with Italians, the segments are significantly shorter for Slavs, which may indicate that some of this ancestry is probably form before Indo-European groups dispersed.

Do you have any other IBD studies or results?

[Sikeliot]

If the same study were to be done on southern Italians, no doubt Slavic population will pop up as sharing ancestry with them, albeit to a smaller extent than Greeks.

I actually doubt this. If the study was done on Sicilians or Calabrese, there would be almost no IBD sharing with NE Europe. You'd probably see something similar to that of the Deep Mani sample, especially if you went into inland Sicily which never had any significant Norman, Lombard, or Greek input.

[Coolguy1]

I actually doubt this. If the study was done on Sicilians or Calabrese, there would be almost no IBD sharing with NE Europe. You'd probably see something similar to that of the Deep Mani sample, especially if you went into inland Sicily which never had any significant Norman, Lombard, or Greek input.

But IBD sharing with Maniots and Italians is low, whereas with other Peloponnesians its very high. All modern Europeans share ancestry with each other, even Greeks with Basques. No doubt southern Italians share ancestry with Slavs, probably from a very long time ago and in small amounts, (0-5%)

[Sikeliot]

But IBD sharing with Maniots and Italians is low, whereas with other Peloponnesians its very high. All modern Europeans share ancestry with each other, even Greeks with Basques. No doubt southern Italians share ancestry with Slavs, probably from a very long time ago and in small amounts, (0-5%)

But I think the same would be true for Sicilians even if they have low IBD sharing with the isolated (RE: inbred) populations of southern Mani (who, FYI, also do not plot with Aegean islanders or Anatolian Greeks according to the study).

Sicilians have almost no NE European DNA, it would be shocking for me if they have any IBD sharing with Slavs above 2%. I do know from another IBD study they have IBD sharing with North Africa, though, but I am not on Anthrogenica anymore so I cannot access the link to show it. My guess is southern Italians would have more IBD sharing with the Levant than with Slavs, even. And the likelihood of IBD sharing with Slavs exceeding 10% is very, very unlikely.

This needs to be put in context. The Maniots might not share a lot with other southern Italians in IBD, but they shared more with southern Italians than with any other non-Greeks, and shared nothing with Levantines, French, NE Europeans, or Iberians of any significance.

[Coolguy1]

But I think the same would be true for Sicilians even if they have low IBD sharing with the isolated (RE: inbred) populations of southern Mani (who, FYI, also do not plot with Aegean islanders or Anatolian Greeks according to the study).

Sicilians have almost no NE European DNA, it would be shocking for me if they have any IBD sharing with Slavs above 2%. I do know from another IBD study they have IBD sharing with North Africa, though, but I am not on Anthrogenica anymore so I cannot access the link to show it. My guess is southern Italians would have more IBD sharing with the Levant than with Slavs, even. And the likelihood of IBD sharing with Slavs exceeding 10% is very, very unlikely.

This needs to be put in context. The Maniots might not share a lot with other southern Italians in IBD, but they shared more with southern Italians than with any other non-Greeks, and shared nothing with Levantines, French, NE Europeans, or Iberians of any significance.

I dont really think the northeastern ancestry in Sicilians should be used to quantify the shared ancestry between the two groups. The ancestry would probably be from before the split of indo-European tribes in the Steppes, before today's Slavic people absorbed their northeastern component from people who already lived there.

Anyways, it probably would be low, probably 0-5% at max.

[Sikeliot]

I dont really think the northeastern ancestry in Sicilians should be used to quantify the shared ancestry between the two groups. The ancestry would probably be from before the split of indo-European tribes in the Steppes, before today's Slavic people absorbed their northeastern component from people who already lived there.

My point is Sicilians have almost no Indo-European ancestry, and almost no connection of any kind to NE Europe. The difference between the Peloponnesians and the Sicilians is likely the Slavic affinity in the Peloponnesians, however small it is.

My guess is Sicilians have almost no shared ancestry with NE Europe. I don't see how it could be otherwise. What is clear is, 10%+ would not happen. However low among Peloponnesians it'd be even lower in Sicily, and not even close.

[Sikeliot]

Like this is an example. Here, some of the southern Italians are basically Cypriots. I doubt those would have any shared ancestry with Slavs.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/377578ejhg2015233x8.jpg

[Coolguy1]

Like this is an example. Here, some of the southern Italians are basically Cypriots. I doubt those would have any shared ancestry with Slavs.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/377578ejhg2015233x8.jpg

Actually the study didnt differentiate between which regions in Italy, so you may be right about Sicilians sharing close to 0% with Slavs, but from central/south mainland up they no doubt do.

[Sikeliot]

Actually the study didnt differentiate between which regions in Italy, so you may be right about Sicilians sharing close to 0% with Slavs, but from central/south mainland up they no doubt do.

I mean Sicily, Calabria, Lucania, and Apulia. Of course, based on this: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?205730-Sazzini-et-al-2016-Italian-population-structure-(PCAs-included-here)

The least 'European' sampled are the Sicilians from Catania, then those from Agrigento, then Calabria, so I suspect these are the Cypriot-like ones. Campanians would likely be more overlapping with the Peloponnese, because of their slightly elevated northern affinities.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

The results can be greater than 12% you stupid muslim. The study said slav markers can be anywhere from 0% to 14%. Who taught you to lie to strangers? Your mother? I never seen a race such as the Albanians. You are so used to stealing and lying - you assume others behave the same way. You have not read the fucking study like Labia. You are just commenting shit. I don't blame you however. I blame the Ottomans. The only thing they could have done to make bastardised Illyrians more stupid - they did. They added Islam. The experiment was complete. A race of thieves and people traffickers par excellence. There are some Albanians with dignity - however they are like what is left of the slavic input in the Peloponnese: 0% - 14%. :thumb001:

Another sandnigger who can't handle the heat, I see you're one of those dimwits who got used with fairytales preached by your priests and academia, get used with genetic truth that you are just a conglomerate made up of everything and not descend of ancient greeks, slav is just another addition of many inputs you have in your veins, not to mention albanians, vlachs, armenian related asia minor people and God knows how many turks in your closet.

[Laberia]

It's an classic of this pseudo-scientific greek papers starting always with an attack against an important personality as Fallmerayer. It's what can be considered, an ad hominem attack. This people don't want to concentrate on the argument, the slavic presence, they attack the others.
Something interesting from the page of Fallmerayer, can help us to understand the brainwashing of neogreeks:

Fallmerayer's name eventually became "a symbol for hatred of the Greeks", and Nikos Dimou wrote (only partly in jest) that he had been raised to imagine Fallmerayer as a "blood-dripping Greek-eater" (αιμοσταγή ελληνοφάγο).[53] In the twentieth century the charge of "neo-Fallmerayerism" was occasionally used by Greek scholars in an attempt to discredit the work of certain Western European scholars, including Cyril Mango, whose work bore no actual relation to Fallmerayer's.[54] (The charge was also heard outside of Greece, for example, in the course of a debate between Kenneth Setton and Peter Charanis.[55]) The first modern Greek translation of Fallmerayer's work appeared in 1984.[56]

[Laberia]

The results can be greater than 12% you stupid muslim. The study said slav markers can be anywhere from 0% to 14%. Who taught you to lie to strangers? Your mother? I never seen a race such as the Albanians. You are so used to stealing and lying - you assume others behave the same way. You have not read the fucking study like Labia. You are just commenting shit. I don't blame you however. I blame the Ottomans. The only thing they could have done to make bastardised Illyrians more stupid - they did. They added Islam. The experiment was complete. A race of thieves and people traffickers par excellence. There are some Albanians with dignity - however they are like what is left of the slavic input in the Peloponnese: 0% - 14%. :thumb001:

"blood-dripping Greek-eater"
Lol. This is how they fuck your brain.